On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:45:33 +0100, tim... wrote:

First get them onto an isp say with an amazon Echo dot. Show them
all
the great stuff it can do,

what great stuff would that be? Playing radio programs?

I was wondering what this "great stuff it can do" is as well.

(My friend's turns his light on and off for him. But I bet that doesn't
come "out of the box")

Quite...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:08:39 +0100, T i m wrote:

Watching my Mum (90) using her iPad the most common issues seem to be
a function of speed, or lack of when switching between things and her
dabbing and tapping multiple times because things haven't happened.

Thought iPad's and IoS the bees knees and didn't suffer that sort of
thing. B-)

I really think these things should have a 'Wait' light on them that
flashes up when the system is more than 25% loaded. ;-)

Any "wait" indication needs to be accurate and pop up the instant any
user input has been in the queue longer than a second. Unlike windows
where it's some sort of flashy random thing, assuming the user input
actually made it into a queue in the first place. That and ensure
that the OS puts user input at the top or at least very near the top
of the priority list. I don't want to be kept waiting will it chugs
away at some unimportant "background" house keeping task(s).

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:50:31 +0100, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

nothing to stop anyone adding a USB mouse/trackball.

Again that needs hand/eye coordination - may be an unfamiliar
skill to
someone who has never used a mouse before.

Perhaps if you don't start right at the begining it's a problem.
"Click on the Firefox icon" needs a heck of lot of
explanation/demostration before it makes sense to someone who doesn't
know what an on screen mouse pointer is or looks like, how to move it
and the variations in left/right click. Not to mention that the
options and layout under either click are anything but consistent (at
least in doze).

I had a game to explain what 'up, down, left, right' was in the context
of using buttons on a remote control matching that to the highlight of a
selected item on a smart television menu.

Of course the highlight moving has subtly changed the picture, but the
user is thinking it's a whole new screen displayed and now ye need to
press another button on this here remote.

I suspect a failing in the teacher more than the pupil. Not going far
enough back in the basics. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 10 Aug 2020 13:48:17 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Someone willing to help out could probably solve that one with a
'survey'. For example, a small box (raspberry pi?) with an internal 4G
dongle.

Give it/post it to the user, say 'plug this in where you would use your
tablet'. Wait until the green light comes on, then unplug and send it
back. The device makes a note of the available networks, their signal
strength and a timestamp. Maybe it sends that via 4G when plugged in,

I have a sneaky feeling it's not that simple. I'm not aware of any
app that can tell you "which network is best" and it's such an
obvious thing for an app I'd expect there to be loads about if it was
easy/possible to do. Yes there are (Android) apps that'll give all
manner of information about the network you are connected to but I
don't think you can get the same information from a network you
aren't/can't connect to.

There's two issues with laptops. One is trackpads - it needs people to
know that they move the pointer to screen by moving their fingers on the
trackpad. This might be an unfamiliar skill and tricky to grasp for
some, whereas touching things with your fingers is natural.

Touch... touchy things and tremors do not mix well. Even a a mouse
can present problems with wobbling pointers or "phantom" clicks.
Having a Parkinsons right sided tremor I know. I've added compression
springs to a mouse and my trackball buttons to try and reduce such
unintentional clicks.

The other is Windows, which is not beginner friendly. Possibly ChromeOS
might fix that one, and there are Chromebooks with LTE. Some have touch
screens which avoids the trackpad issue. I don't know how ChromeOS is
for beginners, I haven't used it. It might be more hungry on the data
connection though.

Aren't Chromebooks little more than WIMP dumb terminals? With out a
reasonably fast and reliable 'net connection and you can't do much as
everything is "in the cloud".

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 11/08/2020 00:30, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:50:31 +0100, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

Of course the highlight moving has subtly changed the picture, but the
user is thinking it's a whole new screen displayed and now ye need to
press another button on this here remote.

I suspect a failing in the teacher more than the pupil. Not going far
enough back in the basics. B-)


That admittedly may be. But .... (cond. P94)

;-)

--
Adrian C

On 10/08/2020 11:36, Clive Page wrote:
I help to run a club.Â* Over 90% of members now communicate by email,
book events online, etc.Â* But I'd like to help those who don't.Â* Most of
them, I think, are well over 70 and have no computer background.Â* Given
the emphasis on online communications during this pandemic they are
losing contact with the world more and more, so it would be nice to be
able to suggest an easy way for them to get connected up like the rest
of us.Â* Some are actually frightened of the Internet - they see too many
stories of bank scams etc. not realising that most start out via phone
calls.Â* But quite a few, I think, would get connected if only they knew
how.

The traditional route is to ask your phone company to add broadband of
some sort (ADSL or FTTC), install the router they send you which may
need a new wall-plate or phone filters, then buy a laptop and connect it
to the router by wifi, and then sign up to an email service.Â* But there
are a lot of choices in doing that, and needs more than a little
technical knowledge.

It occurs to me that maybe the better and simpler route would be to
suggest that they buy a tablet computer of some sort and then connect up
via the cellphone network.Â* But they still have to decide which tablet,
and then choose a SIM company and whether to use a contract or
pay-as-you go, and set it all up, plus choosing an email provider.Â* I
can see all this is fairly daunting to anyone who has not done it before.

Does anyone know of any guides or tutorials that would help here?Â* I've
trawled through a few web pages but can't find anything that is useful,
impartial, and appropriate for the UK.



Some mobile devices come with an eSIM installed. The current generation
of iPads come with an eSIM.

There are a number of mobile data plans you can sign up to on the iPad
which will require card details.

The eSIM is effectively a programmable SIM so you can switch mobile
network providers. So this removes one one step but however, teh data
plans chose may not be the most competitive around.

On 10/08/2020 19:05, Jethro_uk wrote:
The more I ponder this, the more I think moving the grunt into a cloud
service and just using the tablet/iPad/desktop/laptop to access it via
however like a dumb terminal.


You're thinking of Shadow:

https://shadow.tech/int

T i m wrote:
Watching my Mum (90) using her iPad the most common issues seem to be
a function of speed, or lack of when switching between things and her
dabbing and tapping multiple times because things haven't happened.

There's that, and there's also sensitivity issues. I'm not sure if there's
a physiological cause for older figures to not activate touch screens so
well. IME it's either pressing on something and nothing happens, or
pressing on it too long and it's treated as a drag.

iOS has accessibility options that look like some of these things can be
tuned. It appears there's an accessibility button on the setup screen,
although you'd probably have to know it's there and what to adjust in the
settings. It would probably need someone to help out with the setup
process.

That's in contrast to the touchpads on Windows laptops that often have an
obscure vendor-specific app for tweaking things that's lurking somewhere in
the Start menu. (Precision touchpads have got a lot better, but I'm not
sure how well they handle accessibility).

I really think these things should have a 'Wait' light on them that
flashes up when the system is more than 25% loaded. ;-)

If it's a beginner doing basic stuff, the system shouldn't get laggy in the
first place. Fair enough if you have 200 browser tabs open, but there's
something wrong if it's slow on one.

Like the HDD LED that I miss so much on this Mac Mini ... ;-(

I'm sure Apple will sell you a nice fast SSD for that (in your next Mac
Mini, of course).

Theo

On 10/08/2020 11:36, Clive Page wrote:
I help to run a club.Â* Over 90% of members now communicate by email,
book events online, etc.Â* But I'd like to help those who don't.Â* Most of

OK. You need to find out why they are not on the internet. Where I live
reasons include "can't see the point", "can't get usable service 1Mbps"
and don't have a computer (or a smart phone). Equally age is not the
issue we have one very smart 95 year old who has multiple computers,
Sibelius composing software and midi interfaced instruments.

them, I think, are well over 70 and have no computer background.Â* Given
the emphasis on online communications during this pandemic they are
losing contact with the world more and more, so it would be nice to be
able to suggest an easy way for them to get connected up like the rest
of us.Â* Some are actually frightened of the Internet - they see too many
stories of bank scams etc. not realising that most start out via phone
calls.Â* But quite a few, I think, would get connected if only they knew
how.

The traditional route is to ask your phone company to add broadband of
some sort (ADSL or FTTC), install the router they send you which may
need a new wall-plate or phone filters, then buy a laptop and connect it
to the router by wifi, and then sign up to an email service.Â* But there
are a lot of choices in doing that, and needs more than a little
technical knowledge.

The lowest cost solution for dipping a toe in the water for email and a
bit of web browsing without making a significant commitment is a MiFi
pebble with a free 200MB/month SIM available from he

https://www.three.co.uk/Free_SIM_MBB/Order

Beware that there is a clone of the legit site with malformed CSS sat
higher on the Google search that I see from here where "three" is "3G".
Looks to me like hostile cyber squatting to catch the unwary.

Hardware wise something like this model (or a secondhand one)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/E5576-320-P...dp/B081S5KRZ7/

A 3/4G dongle would be cheaper but they have the disadvantage of being
too near the PC and potentially blinded by electronic hash noise. Mine
would only work when put on a 1m USB extension cable with my portable
and was a complete dead loss plugged in down the back of a tower PC.

It occurs to me that maybe the better and simpler route would be to
suggest that they buy a tablet computer of some sort and then connect up
via the cellphone network.Â* But they still have to decide which tablet,
and then choose a SIM company and whether to use a contract or
pay-as-you go, and set it all up, plus choosing an email provider.Â* I
can see all this is fairly daunting to anyone who has not done it before.

It need not be if you standardise the process for a couple of common
platforms - Apple and Android being the most popular. My recommendation
for them or their tech assistant would be to scour Cex and the like for
too slow for the latest games 10" tablets and Mifi pebbles.

Email setup with gmail is pretty simple and free.

Does anyone know of any guides or tutorials that would help here?Â* I've
trawled through a few web pages but can't find anything that is useful,
impartial, and appropriate for the UK.

FWIW My suggestion would be to demonstrate what you can do at one of
your meetings. Nothing beats showing them how easy it is (but practice
first - Murphy's Law applies to demos and if it can go wrong it will).

The groups I belong to vary in their sophistication - the British Cactus
and Succulent society have taken to holding weekly international Zoom
meetings with expert speakers from around the world in the absence of
any physical UK branch meetings. AT the other extreme my village hall
committee includes people without internet or a computer at home.
(and the church committee is even worse in that respect)

I have not found a way to persuade the refuseniks to accept the internet
although some of them will use it in the village hall (or at public
libraries in the good old days when they were open and had librarians).
Basically some of them don't feel confident to do it on their own.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Dave Liquorice wrote:
I have a sneaky feeling it's not that simple. I'm not aware of any
app that can tell you "which network is best" and it's such an
obvious thing for an app I'd expect there to be loads about if it was
easy/possible to do. Yes there are (Android) apps that'll give all
manner of information about the network you are connected to but I
don't think you can get the same information from a network you
aren't/can't connect to.

If you have a phone and go for 'manual network selection', perhaps because
you're roaming, it shows you all the available networks.

I'm not 100% that happens if you have a local SIM which already knows which
networks it can use. Roaming does still work for emergency calls, so there
must be some degree of that plumbing in place. But if the 'survey' box has
a roaming SIM in it (often they're from Isle of Man or Jersey or
Lichtenstein or something) then it will see and connect to all networks.
(which is useful as you might actually want to do a speedtest rather than
simply assess signal strength).

I think you can get more out of a USB dongle you're explicitly controlling,
rather than an Android phone where Android is in the way.

Aren't Chromebooks little more than WIMP dumb terminals? With out a
reasonably fast and reliable 'net connection and you can't do much as
everything is "in the cloud".

Yes, but then people do email in the cloud these days (Gmail and friends),
Google Docs, etc. Arguably that's less surprising to a beginner than having
to manage files on their device. It does obviously depend on having a
decent network connection.

Theo

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:42:15 +0100, tim... wrote:

These days the device probably needs to be a laptop. Tablets
suffer
the same as a phone but not quite as badly for the larger (10")
models. A desktop system would probably need a webcam and
microphone
added, maybe even WiFI to avoid having to run an ethernet cable.

I personally don't think that somebody who has never used a computer
before, is going to upgrade to using it for video communication any time
soon

That's why I suggested a laptop, no need to "upgrade". And video
communication is not difficult these days with Zoom that pretty much
"just works". The same cannot be said for MS Teams, which IMHO is a
slow, clunky, user unfriendly heap of poo.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:56:43 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

The lowest cost solution for dipping a toe in the water for email and a
bit of web browsing without making a significant commitment is a MiFi
pebble


... with a free 200MB/month SIM available from he

https://www.three.co.uk/Free_SIM_MBB/Order

Assuming that Three has a decent 4G signal where the 'net access is
required. Three's coverage is not a good as the other networks.

What's the catch? Can't find any real information about this "Data
Reward" SIM. Are they really giving you 200 MB/month for free? Is
tethering allowed? I can see this SIM might intended to be used in an
end user device to give that device only 'net access rather than a
MiFi?

200 MB wouldn't be give you much video but is quite a lot of simple
plain text email. ie not too many hi res pictures of the grand
kids...

Email setup with gmail is pretty simple and free.

And avoids any "ISP tie in" if you use the ISP's email service.

FWIW My suggestion would be to demonstrate what you can do at one of
your meetings. Nothing beats showing them how easy it is (but practice
first - Murphy's Law applies to demos and if it can go wrong it will).

Agreed, and use the kit that they would most likely be using as well.


--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Clive Page wrote:
I help to run a club. Over 90% of members now communicate by email,
book events online, etc. But I'd like to help those who don't. Most of
them, I think, are well over 70 and have no computer background. Given
the emphasis on online communications during this pandemic they are
losing contact with the world more and more, so it would be nice to be
able to suggest an easy way for them to get connected up like the rest
of us. Some are actually frightened of the Internet - they see too many
stories of bank scams etc. not realising that most start out via phone
calls. But quite a few, I think, would get connected if only they knew
how.

Remember with broadband and a smart TV you get lots of useful things TV
related too - for free.

SIL did manage simple online stuff, using an old desktop. When Covid
arrived their kits gave them a tablet with things like Zoom and Skype
loaded. They already would have had the Wi-Fi password, and SIL got the
hang of Zoom etc quickly.

With so many bank branches and post offices etc closing, the sooner oldies
get online, the better.

--
*Tell me to 'stuff it' - I'm a taxidermist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11 Aug 2020 09:52:23 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Watching my Mum (90) using her iPad the most common issues seem to
be
a function of speed, or lack of when switching between things and
her
dabbing and tapping multiple times because things haven't
happened.

There's that, and there's also sensitivity issues. I'm not sure if
there's a physiological cause for older figures to not activate touch
screens so well.

My ancient (2012) 7" Android tablet suffers from not "seeing" some
touches but I think that is down to the touch not actaually being
where you think it is(*) combined with small active screen areas.

iOS has accessibility options that look like some of these things can be
tuned.

I heard quite a while ago that some one had developed an anti-tremor
input filter for Android that I think google then bought. Not seen
anything about that recently, must have a dig...

(*) If you turn on the developer option to show where touches are
being detected, the hardward is working fine, it is detecting the
touch where it is physically is happening. It is just that that
doesn't match where you think it should be.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
What's the catch?

There isn't one. Been using them for years.
Eventually they expire. I'd put £2 on them and send a text every few months
to keep them alive.

Can't find any real information about this "Data
Reward" SIM. Are they really giving you 200 MB/month for free?

Yes.

Is tethering allowed?

Formerly not, but Ofcom have banned discrimination against tethering.
So I think it is now.

The tethering block was based on TTL in packets, so if doing wifi tethering
you just set the TTL emitted by Windows/Mac/etc to be 65. It worked fine.
Alternatively Bluetooth or USB tethering doesn't decrement the TTL.

I think the TTL block may still apply when roaming abroad (for which the
free data also works).

I can see this SIM might intended to be used in an end user device to give
that device only 'net access rather than a MiFi?

There's no difference as far as the SIM is concerned. The issues about
tethering above are still relevant.

200 MB wouldn't be give you much video but is quite a lot of simple
plain text email. ie not too many hi res pictures of the grand
kids...

Indeed. And since the SIM is free, you can have several.
The 200MB renews every month. When it stops working, put in another SIM.
I did imagine a machine-gun style 'magazine' of SIM cards, that advances
every time you run out of data :-)

For me 200MB is enough for a couple of days email/Google Maps/satnav/etc,
which made them handy for travelling. A few SIMs would cover a week's trip.

Email setup with gmail is pretty simple and free.

And avoids any "ISP tie in" if you use the ISP's email service.

Do any mobile operators offer their own email these days?

Theo

Theo wrote:
T i m wrote:
Watching my Mum (90) using her iPad the most common issues seem to be
a function of speed, or lack of when switching between things and her
dabbing and tapping multiple times because things haven't happened.

There's that, and there's also sensitivity issues. I'm not sure if there's
a physiological cause for older figures to not activate touch screens so
well. IME it's either pressing on something and nothing happens, or
pressing on it too long and it's treated as a drag.

Its possible that drier skin has an effect. I once suffered a bit of a
cold injury to my fingers and had real problems with touch screens for a
while.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 11 Aug 2020 10:42:14 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

There's that, and there's also sensitivity issues. I'm not sure
if
there's a physiological cause for older figures to not activate
touch
screens so well.too long and it's treated as a drag.

It s possible that drier skin has an effect. I once suffered a bit of
a cold injury to my fingers and had real problems with touch screens for
a while.

Might do I find that with capacitive screens you don't actually have
to touch them. They'll dectect a finger 1/2 to 1/4 mm away. I guess a
really dry finger will be less conductive on the surface an present a
lower coupling to the screen?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2020 11:36, Clive Page wrote:

It occurs to me that maybe the better and simpler route would be to
suggest that they buy a tablet computer of some sort

Start them with a cheap PAYG smartphone first. It might be all they need,
or want to be involved with.

I've given up volunteering assistance in this vein. It's really not the
end user that is the issue. It's the failure of technology. Not everyone
is impressed by video games and playing 'spot the hotspot'.

We need to go back to black and white terminals, command line interfaces
and get rid of the mouse.

or jump forward to voice controlled everything...

Any decent smartphone does that already.

On 11/08/2020 10:19, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:50:36 +0100, No Name wrote:

On 10/08/2020 19:05, Jethro_uk wrote:
The more I ponder this, the more I think moving the grunt into a cloud
service and just using the tablet/iPad/desktop/laptop to access it via
however like a dumb terminal.


You're thinking of Shadow:

https://shadow.tech/int

Well it's looking where I was. Remove the games and have email, messenger
apps and facebook.


Friend OS
https://friendos.com/

--
Adrian C

Clive Page wrote:
I help to run a club. Over 90% of members now communicate by email, book
events online, etc. But I'd like to help those who don't. Most of them,
I think, are well over 70 and have no computer background. Given the
emphasis on online communications during this pandemic they are losing
contact with the world more and more, so it would be nice to be able to
suggest an easy way for them to get connected up like the rest of us.
Some are actually frightened of the Internet - they see too many stories
of bank scams etc. not realising that most start out via phone calls.
But quite a few, I think, would get connected if only they knew how.

The traditional route is to ask your phone company to add broadband of
some sort (ADSL or FTTC), install the router they send you which may need
a new wall-plate or phone filters, then buy a laptop and connect it to
the router by wifi, and then sign up to an email service. But there are
a lot of choices in doing that, and needs more than a little technical knowledge.

It occurs to me that maybe the better and simpler route would be to
suggest that they buy a tablet computer of some sort and then connect up
via the cellphone network. But they still have to decide which tablet,
and then choose a SIM company and whether to use a contract or pay-as-you
go, and set it all up, plus choosing an email provider. I can see all
this is fairly daunting to anyone who has not done it before.

Does anyone know of any guides or tutorials that would help here? I've
trawled through a few web pages but can't find anything that is useful,
impartial, and appropriate for the UK.


How about a €˜smart assistant like an Echo Dot? While Ive not done it, I
understand you can set up gmail so it can be read by Alexa and you can send
Emails by dictation. The calendar function works rather well- Alexa and add
events, tell you what is scheduled etc. You can message others. I assume
the Google beast does the same. The Echo Show does Skype. You dont need to
subscribe Prime, unless you want Prime services like films etc.

--
https://www.unitedway.org/our-impact...an-trafficking

On Tuesday, 11 August 2020 12:50:50 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 11 Aug 2020 10:42:14 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

There's that, and there's also sensitivity issues. I'm not sure
if
there's a physiological cause for older figures to not activate
touch
screens so well.too long and it's treated as a drag.

Itâ s possible that drier skin has an effect. I once suffered a bit of
a cold injury to my fingers and had real problems with touch screens for
a while.

Might do I find that with capacitive screens you don't actually have
to touch them. They'll dectect a finger 1/2 to 1/4 mm away. I guess a
really dry finger will be less conductive on the surface an present a
lower coupling to the screen?


I sometimes find my left hand works better than my right. (Not a screen, I know, but definitely for iPhone unlock button. Hence, set up for a left finger.) If I have a problem, the first thing I try is my left-hand. Almost always works.

Some disorders affect skin dryness, etc., and people correlate state of health with screen touch sensitivity.

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:57:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Bill Wright addressing senile Ozzie cretin Rodent Speed:
"Well you make up a lot of stuff and it's total ******** most of it."
MID:

On 11/08/2020 10:30, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:42:15 +0100, tim... wrote:

These days the device probably needs to be a laptop. Tablets
suffer
the same as a phone but not quite as badly for the larger (10")
models. A desktop system would probably need a webcam and
microphone
added, maybe even WiFI to avoid having to run an ethernet cable.

I personally don't think that somebody who has never used a computer
before, is going to upgrade to using it for video communication any time
soon

That's why I suggested a laptop, no need to "upgrade". And video
communication is not difficult these days with Zoom that pretty much
"just works". The same cannot be said for MS Teams, which IMHO is a
slow, clunky, user unfriendly heap of poo.

+1

Have you used any others such as Jitsi?

--

Jeff

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:58:39 +0000 (UTC), Brian Reay
wrote:

snip

Does anyone know of any guides or tutorials that would help here? I've
trawled through a few web pages but can't find anything that is useful,
impartial, and appropriate for the UK.


How about a ‘smart assistant’ like an Echo Dot?

snip

Because they are often also hard of hearing and don't 'get' the right
syntax for things so end up talking to / over it at the wrong times.

Given that many older folk go though the entire list of the family /
pet dog names before they get to yours, how likely is it that they
will remember 'Alexa' or 'Hey Google'?

We (inc my 90yr old Mum) have voice recognition on the Portals, never
use it, because we are not physically disabled (where it might be an
advantage).

There is no way I would give my Mum anything that could allow her to
run up a bill. We have already learned that lesson on her PAYG phone
where she used up £50 credit in a short time by both caining the data
(didn't understand when to or not to use it) but mostly by somehow
signing up for something that took £1/ day from her account for
something she didn't want.

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 10:56:24 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

Given that many older folk go though the entire list of the family /
pet dog names before they get to yours, how likely is it that they
will remember 'Alexa' or 'Hey Google'?

Change the wake word/phrase to be a pet dog's name?

If I were ever to consider one of these devices, and I can't see that happening other than for disability reasons, I'd want to change that.

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:41:26 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

On 11/08/2020 10:30, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:42:15 +0100, tim... wrote:

These days the device probably needs to be a laptop. Tablets
suffer
the same as a phone but not quite as badly for the larger (10")
models. A desktop system would probably need a webcam and
microphone
added, maybe even WiFI to avoid having to run an ethernet cable.

I personally don't think that somebody who has never used a computer
before, is going to upgrade to using it for video communication any
time soon

That's why I suggested a laptop, no need to "upgrade". And video
communication is not difficult these days with Zoom that pretty much
"just works". The same cannot be said for MS Teams, which IMHO is a
slow, clunky, user unfriendly heap of poo.

+1

Have you used any others such as Jitsi?

Jitsi is very simple indeed. No account needed, no additional software.

I have my own jitsi server!



--
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 03:11:28 -0700 (PDT), polygonum_on_google
wrote:

On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 10:56:24 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

Given that many older folk go though the entire list of the family /
pet dog names before they get to yours, how likely is it that they
will remember 'Alexa' or 'Hey Google'?

Change the wake word/phrase to be a pet dog's name?

It bad enough (for the dog) with all the TV adverts that have
doorbells in them, let alone having their name shouted several times
an hour! And if the elder can't get the name of a child they have had
for 63 years right, what chance of the name of a newly made up pet!
;-)

If I were ever to consider one of these devices, and I can't see that happening other than for disability reasons, I'd want to change that.

I'm not sure you can (or can 'easily' but we have Google home devices
here and haven't tried and we have Alexa in the Portal and haven't
tried with that either). I mostly use the Google Home devices as
streaming radios.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:45:43 +0100, Adrian Caspersz
wrote:

On 11/08/2020 10:19, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:50:36 +0100, No Name wrote:

On 10/08/2020 19:05, Jethro_uk wrote:
The more I ponder this, the more I think moving the grunt into a cloud
service and just using the tablet/iPad/desktop/laptop to access it via
however like a dumb terminal.


You're thinking of Shadow:

https://shadow.tech/int

Well it's looking where I was. Remove the games and have email, messenger
apps and facebook.


Friend OS
https://friendos.com/


There is also Eldy ...

http://www.eldy.eu/en/

I think some of the logic was that when a non ePerson sends a letter
they first write the letter *then* they address the envelope, then
they send it.

With a traditional eMail client you *first* address it and then type
what you want (and send it). 'Different.'

eg, Eldy presented the eMails the way they were used to sending
snail-mail.

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
There is also Eldy ...

http://www.eldy.eu/en/

I think some of the logic was that when a non ePerson sends a letter
they first write the letter *then* they address the envelope, then
they send it.

With a traditional eMail client you *first* address it and then type
what you want (and send it). 'Different.'

eg, Eldy presented the eMails the way they were used to sending
snail-mail.

That seems unlikely to me:

My house
Nowheresville

1 April 2099

Mr Bank Manager
Megabank
The metropolis

Dear Mr Bank Manager

Please give me...

Yours sincerely

Me


Yes you don't write the envelope first, but you decide who you're writing to
and put their address in the letter. If it's not a formal letter maybe you
skip that bit but you still are thinking about where you're going to send it
as you're writing the letter.

In the context of an email, you say you're writing to Uncle Bob and the
program will find their address - which is easier than writing a letter.

Maybe I misunderstand, and all their video seems to be Flash so I can't
watch. As the website says:


"Analysing the gaze times, the mouse-logs and the cognitive walkthroughs
(CW) it has been demonstrated the following statements :

€“ Eldy is generally easier to use compared than the traditional Windows pc.

€“ The difficulties encountered by the elderly are due to non-recognition of
some commands or icons.

€œThe evaluation made clear that the difficulties found by the elderly are
not simply due to an inadequate comprehension of text and images but, more
interestingly, to unfamiliarity with some specific procedures that are
commonly used in interface interaction."


This is pre-iPad, and I would agree that Windows, especially in the Vista
era which is when they were started, is hopeless for beginners.

Theo

On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 12:13:52 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 03:11:28 -0700 (PDT), polygonum_on_google
wrote:

On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 10:56:24 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

Given that many older folk go though the entire list of the family /
pet dog names before they get to yours, how likely is it that they
will remember 'Alexa' or 'Hey Google'?

Change the wake word/phrase to be a pet dog's name?

It bad enough (for the dog) with all the TV adverts that have
doorbells in them, let alone having their name shouted several times
an hour! And if the elder can't get the name of a child they have had
for 63 years right, what chance of the name of a newly made up pet!
;-)

If I were ever to consider one of these devices, and I can't see that happening other than for disability reasons, I'd want to change that.

I'm not sure you can (or can 'easily' but we have Google home devices
here and haven't tried and we have Alexa in the Portal and haven't
tried with that either). I mostly use the Google Home devices as
streaming radios.

Cheers, T i m

I did check that it is possible on some of them. Though I wasn't exactly exhaustive in that checking.

My brain struggles to speak to devices. Why, sometimes speaking to humans isn't quite as easy as it should be.

On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 15:34:32 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
In the context of an email, you say you're writing to Uncle Bob and the
program will find their address - which is easier than writing a letter.

Except that sometimes instead of Uncle Bob it sends your email to Manager Bob before you realise.

Owain

On 10/08/2020 14:12, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I'd definitely go with an isp and wifi in the home. No data caps etc and
reliable as long as you are not stupid with placement. First get them onto
an isp say with an amazon Echo dot. Show them all the great stuff it can do,
then is the time to introduce the computer.
Brian

I disagree. I think you want the minimum cost of entry for email and a
little web browsing so that they can try it out first. That is probably
to use a borrowed Mifi pebble with a 200MB/month free data limit and
whatever suitably cheap 10" Android tablet you can find in Cex. Even
better if the club has one that they can lend to would be internauts.

For your own sanity it might make sense to standardise on a couple of
models for people that you may need to support remotely over the phone.
I quite like the Samsung tablets myself although the first one I got for
my mum was a no name generic Chinese one for about £50 which worked OK
(she didn't get on with it though) followed by a Tesco HUDL on coupons.

Otherwise you are talking an ADSL install charge and a commitment to a
12 or 18 month contract on a landline service. That's a lot of money for
some folk - especially if they don't believe they want to have it!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 10/08/2020 15:42, tim... wrote:


"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...

These days the device probably needs to be a laptop. Tablets suffer
the same as a phone but not quite as badly for the larger (10")
models. A desktop system would probably need a webcam and microphone
added, maybe even WiFI to avoid having to run an ethernet cable.

I personally don't think that somebody who has never used a computer
before, is going to upgrade to using it for video communication any time
soon

You would be surprised how quickly granny can adapt to Skype or Zoom.

That is one of the core reasons why many silver surfers are on the net!
Video calls with their family - especially during the lockdown.

She may make the people on the other end of the video link sea sick by
waving her tablet about but that is another matter.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), polygonum_on_google
wrote:
snip
If I were ever to consider one of these devices, and I can't see that happening other than for disability reasons, I'd want to change that.

I'm not sure you can (or can 'easily' but we have Google home devices
here and haven't tried and we have Alexa in the Portal and haven't
tried with that either). I mostly use the Google Home devices as
streaming radios.


I did check that it is possible on some of them.

It would make sense that it could be, unless there is a very subtle
(over and above the obvious that few of us know an Alexa or use that
name in general conversation) AI reason why that sort of name was
deemed (one of the) best etc?

Though I wasn't exactly exhaustive in that checking.

No, my curiosity was only minor and transitory. ;-)

My brain struggles to speak to devices.

I'm not bad with it now because I have spent many hours in the early
days helping people setup the likes of Dragon Dictate.

I have a shopping list app on my phone that is pretty (smilingly
accurate most times) that just creates the item entry, you have to
edit the quantity / pack size / other variables manually.

eg, You tap on the microphone icon, speak your item .. "Robinson's
Summer Fruits sugar free cordial and there it is as an entry. You then
tap on it and add quantity (1), format (1 litre bottle), save. I can
then highlight (or not) what I want then send it to our Whatsapp
Shopping Group for daughter to process (she takes all our lists and
prints them off with colour codes and in the order of the (4) shops
she visits to fulfil them before delivering. ;-)

Why, sometimes speaking to humans isn't quite as easy as it should be.

Quite. ;-)

(Not what you meant but daughter was just on hold (1.125 hours) to
Dyson support chasing up an order that was to be '1-2 weeks' about 5
weeks ago).

Same stock reply when you are chasing up a Pizza delivery ... 'It's
just being dispatched now ...'. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Martin Brown wrote:
I disagree. I think you want the minimum cost of entry for email and a
little web browsing so that they can try it out first. That is probably
to use a borrowed Mifi pebble with a 200MB/month free data limit and
whatever suitably cheap 10" Android tablet you can find in Cex. Even
better if the club has one that they can lend to would be internauts.

For your own sanity it might make sense to standardise on a couple of
models for people that you may need to support remotely over the phone.
I quite like the Samsung tablets myself although the first one I got for
my mum was a no name generic Chinese one for about £50 which worked OK
(she didn't get on with it though) followed by a Tesco HUDL on coupons.

I agree on the cheapness point, but Android is such a dog's breakfast.
Every version they move things around, and then OEMs like Samsung come along
and move things because they feel like it.

Even basic things like how do you open the app menu. Do you:

- press the physical home button (some don't have them)
- press the virtual home button on the bottom of the screen (sometimes it
disappears)
- swipe up from the bottom (swipes are hard to do accurately, and sometimes
even able fingers get them wrong)

It might work if you can have a baseline version and carefully selected
hardware, but it's hard to maintain that over a long period.

Otherwise you are talking an ADSL install charge and a commitment to a
12 or 18 month contract on a landline service. That's a lot of money for
some folk - especially if they don't believe they want to have it!

Yes, a loaner with LTE sounds like a good way to address this. Also a
loaner that they have for a limited time might be useful in forcing
engagement - rather than putting it in a drawer until them get around to it.
Then present a menu of options on how to go from there.

(The loaner could turn into a keeper if they paid for it - and perhaps the
loan organisation could buy stocks of used tablets they could resell at
cost)

Theo

On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 17:43:59 UTC+1, T i m wrote:


My brain struggles to speak to devices.

I'm not bad with it now because I have spent many hours in the early
days helping people setup the likes of Dragon Dictate.

I used to regularly use one particular automated support line - and hated it. (Thank you, HP.) I'd have to prepare what I need to say, and breathe deeply, before even dialling the number.

If it failed to understand at any point, I'd usually hang up and try again. Rather than going through previously unexplored pathways.


I have a shopping list app on my phone that is pretty (smilingly
accurate most times) that just creates the item entry, you have to
edit the quantity / pack size / other variables manually.

eg, You tap on the microphone icon, speak your item .. "Robinson's
Summer Fruits sugar free cordial and there it is as an entry. You then
tap on it and add quantity (1), format (1 litre bottle), save. I can
then highlight (or not) what I want then send it to our Whatsapp
Shopping Group for daughter to process (she takes all our lists and
prints them off with colour codes and in the order of the (4) shops
she visits to fulfil them before delivering. ;-)


Piece of paper, a torn up old notebook from about twenty years ago, mostly pink. And a pen or pencil. Lying on the side in the kitchen. Very easy to share. The only real downside is forgetting to take it with us when we go out.

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:30:27 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

I personally don't think that somebody who has never used a
computer
before, is going to upgrade to using it for video communication
any
time soon

You would be surprised how quickly granny can adapt to Skype or Zoom.

That is one of the core reasons why many silver surfers are on the net!
Video calls with their family - especially during the lockdown.

+1

Nothing like having an itch to drive people into doing what ever is
required to scratch it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 00:48:08 -0700 (PDT), polygonum_on_google
wrote:

snip

eg, You tap on the microphone icon, speak your item .. "Robinson's
Summer Fruits sugar free cordial and there it is as an entry. You then
tap on it and add quantity (1), format (1 litre bottle), save. I can
then highlight (or not) what I want then send it to our Whatsapp
Shopping Group for daughter to process (she takes all our lists and
prints them off with colour codes and in the order of the (4) shops
she visits to fulfil them before delivering. ;-)


Piece of paper, a torn up old notebook from about twenty years ago, mostly pink. And a pen or pencil. Lying on the side in the kitchen.

Oh I remember those days!

Very easy to share.

Not with someone who doesn't live with you and in a form that can then
be edited and processed.

The only real downside is forgetting to take it with us when we go out.

No, that's just one of the (many) downsides of using your solution in
our scenario. Everone who is supplied shopping by our daughter is on
the same Whatsapp group so any additions, deletions or amendments can
be applied realtime. 'Dad, I'm in Aldi and they don't have x, would
you like y' (using the same interface).

Why, sometimes speaking to humans isn't quite as easy as it should be.

snip

There are times when I seem to think a response rather than speak it. Someone says "The pan's just about to boil over!". I think "Phew! Glad you noticed.", and go and turn off burner. Then realise that I should open my mouth to respond to the speaker - "Thanks, that was close.". Rather than speak "Ah! Right. OK.", then do the necessary.

Yup, I find myself doing that (and less) more and more, especially
with the Mrs. She is one of these people who if allowed, would
probably talk though / narrate / comment of a film or TV program we
are watching, missing half the content (and making me miss half the
content). I guess that may be a function of how intensely you want
or_may_be_able_to apply concentration / focus on what you are
watching.

If I watch a film (I'm interested in) I try to take in as much of it
as possible, including anything going on on the side (Like seeing the
moving star stop in the opening few seconds of MP's Life of Brian').
Now, *I* still have reasonably good sight and hearing so it seems I
see things that she (in this case) simply can't / don't. She asks me
if that's 'You know who' from can rarely remember / recall either
detail[1] when it's nothing like the person I know she thinks it is
and the show / film they are best / typically known from.

(Yet at other times I can drivel on for GB.)

As can most of us. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Yesterday she was on Boots Online website trying to see if / where
her repeat prescription was. I had to instruct her though every screen
(it seemed) ... when the only available option in many cases was
'Continue'?

So, once we had stumbled to the conclusion they were on order, she
asked how she should exit and I said (for the n'th time on each
session), 'Go to the burger Menu' when I might just as well said
'Squekb pbottit'. Does it actually have to look exactly like a burger
(with the detail of the bun, pate and cheese hanging out) for that
icon to be re-recognised after you have used it 10 times before? Ok, I
know sometimes it's just 3 dots (this wasn't) but it's the same
function. So, we found it (no, it wasn't anywhere else but the top of
that page, had you actually scrolled that far back up and not sat
puzzled looking at the middle of that page) and found, along with
logout was also 'Previous orders'. I suggested she try that as it
might confirm if they though they were going to or had sent her order
and after doing so, she asked if she should just close the browser
(but not in those words of course). So I said, you can, but it might
be better to log out via the Burger Menu and there we were in exactly
the same position as we were 5 minutes before? ;-(

I have suggested he makes notes for herself of such things as in that
way she wouldn't have the stress (of not knowing, if I wasn't there
etc) but she never seems to take it up (but she keeps a small diary so
she knows what we have done each day) and I feel it might be
patronising to make such a crib sheet for her.

"{Burger menu image} = Burger Menu. This is found on many WEB pages,
programs and Smartphone Apps and is a general menu giving you extra
functions, like logout, print or settings."

So, following up on what you said ... I hear most of what she says but
don't believe (hope) she's not actually looking for replies (outside
'Ok' possibly) on much of it, although if I was another 70 year old
woman I think I probably might?

How would you react to 'We are running out of Oat (long-life, so not
in the fridge) milk' when you know you aren't and CBA to explain where
it's stored (again) and knowing you will put one in the fridge ready
when the open one is getting low in any case? I know she means well
but like I said, I don't think I'll make a good carer ... ;-(

On 12 Aug 2020 22:17:39 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

I agree on the cheapness point, but Android is such a dog's breakfast.
Every version they move things around, and then OEMs like Samsung come
along and move things because they feel like it.

Android ONE?

Though I still think a laptop would better than a tablet even a large
one.

Even basic things like how do you open the app menu.

You mean the list of all installed apps? Don't routinely need to do
that you have your frequently used icons on the "desktop", maybe
grouped by function on different pages.

Otherwise you are talking an ADSL install charge and a commitment
to a
12 or 18 month contract on a landline service. That's a lot of
money
for some folk - especially if they don't believe they want to have
it!

I think most elderly will already have a landline. Way back we didn't
have a phone at home, which normally came as great surprise to others
even then. It wasn't until us kids left home (late 70's) that we
insisted that they got one...

Which just leaves the xDSL install and service charge. Trailing with
a mobile connected device probably isn't a bad idea to see if they
get one with and also if the rest of the family get on with having
granny video chatting for a couple of hours every day...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:05:27 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:30:27 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

I personally don't think that somebody who has never used a
computer
before, is going to upgrade to using it for video communication
any
time soon

You would be surprised how quickly granny can adapt to Skype or Zoom.

That is one of the core reasons why many silver surfers are on the net!
Video calls with their family - especially during the lockdown.

+1

+1

Set Dad up with a dial-up-modem on his iMac and email account (free).
Didn't see the point so it came back with our daughter a couple of
weeks later with a 'Thanks but no thanks'. 2 years later when the BSI
went paperless he paid some 'Mac Guy' ~£200 to set him up with the
exact same. ;-(

Nothing like having an itch to drive people into doing what ever is
required to scratch it.

For Mum it was trying to talk her though doing something technical on
the phone and her not sounding like she was not bothered (she rang me
with the problem) and, out of frustration she said, "I'm old, tired
and lonely". Now she's always been a tough old bird (still looking
after Dad when he was fit and she's got a broken arm) and so that got
to me and I arranged 4 Portal Minis (her, her daughter, her 2
granddaughters) and I think they really helped.

Easy to use (not 'a computer', more an appliance), loud, clear, simple
(once set up etc).

Now, nothing you couldn't do with many other solutions on many other
platforms but being dedicated mean they would stay working and
available when your tablet was flat or being used elsewhere and
quicker to power up and have running than most PC's and laptops.

We since got one as well (partly to offer support to the others but
outside of some basic install funnies, haven't had to) and we don't
even have ours plugged in, powering it up when we get an incoming call
(comes up on my Phone) or a 'Portal?' request from daughter / Mum /
family on IM.

Given (as mentioned) one of the first things that many elderly parents
miss is the personal contact with their Covid estranged family,
something that provides a video-chat link in the easiest form might be
the most used / appreciated?

Cheers, T i m