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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Experiences with ground source heat pumps?
Hi,
I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike |
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"Mike Deblis" wrote in message om... Hi, I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike Mike: Please keep posting your findings here. We live in a similar, probably slightly colder and with a longer winter, climate to the UK. While we have no immediate intention of installing a heat pump, we have a property with potential to install one in a new build within the next few years. So we are very interested. Thanks. |
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Terry wrote:
"Mike Deblis" wrote in message om... Hi, I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike Mike: Please keep posting your findings here. We live in a similar, probably slightly colder and with a longer winter, climate to the UK. While we have no immediate intention of installing a heat pump, we have a property with potential to install one in a new build within the next few years. So we are very interested. Thanks. I am also very interested, especially in view of the fuel situation that is rapidly developing. From what I've read the best source is running water, however it does not matter how cold the source is it still has plenty of heat. I know someone is bound to say what about absolute zero! :-) -- Please do not reply by Email, as all emails to this address are automatically deleted. |
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"Mike Deblis" wrote in message om... Hi, I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike Whilst looking for something else, I came across this site http://www.adethebuilder.co.uk/week89_23jun2003.htm It shows how a system was installed - maybe you could contact the site owner for more info. Dave |
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I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does
anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... Someone mentioned this site a while ago (links directly to their heat pump page) http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/phase3.htm -- Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email --- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) --- |
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"Martin Angove" wrote in message ... In message , (N. Thornton) wrote: [...] the issue with heat pumps is that 1. as outdoor temp drops, efficiency drops too, so they effectively drop out at some minmum outdoor temp. 2. Below freezing (at the cold coils) they have to pump heat through ice, and ice insulates. So again, efficiency dies at low temps. I thought the point with ground source heat pumps (as opposed to the air variety) was that the pipes were buried deep enough to be in that part of the ground which never freezes and which is at a relatively constant temperature year-round. Granted if you take heat out and there's no gain from above there's a slight efficiency drop... What about the borehole type? Presumably since they go deeper they are both more efficient and able to be installed in a smaller area. Boreholes are naturally more efficient, but expensive to get drillers in. |
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"N. Thornton" wrote in message om... (Mike Deblis) wrote in message . com... I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... suggest alt.solar.thermal, and somewhat less likely, maybe sci.energy etc. Youve done the maths, the issue with heat pumps is that 1. as outdoor temp drops, efficiency drops too, so they effectively drop out at some minmum outdoor temp. 2. Below freezing (at the cold coils) they have to pump heat through ice, and ice insulates. So again, efficiency dies at low temps. You could provide a significant amount of heat with simple passive solar space heating, and with very attractive figures. And you could possibly use a solar thingy to boost your heat pump efficiency some of the time. The solar jobs that pay best are homemade flat plates (haeting air not water). Add some reflectors and the performance goes right up. In winter a heat pump may not be able to produce enough hot water at high enough temperatures. The alternatives a * large solar panels storing water in alarge thermals store using very low temp underfloor heating. * Windpower, again using a thermal store and UFH. You may find that either of the above may come in cheaper than the heat pump. |
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:56:59 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
In winter a heat pump may not be able to produce enough hot water at high enough temperatures. The alternatives a * large solar panels storing water in alarge thermals store using very low temp underfloor heating. * Windpower, again using a thermal store and UFH. You may find that either of the above may come in cheaper than the heat pump. Hi, CO2 heat pumps are coming available that do a good job of generating hot water for DHW. cheers, Pete. |
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"Pete C" wrote in message ... On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:56:59 +0100, "IMM" wrote: In winter a heat pump may not be able to produce enough hot water at high enough temperatures. The alternatives a * large solar panels storing water in a large thermal store using very low temp underfloor heating. * Windpower, again using a thermal store and UFH. You may find that either of the above may come in cheaper than the heat pump. CO2 heat pumps are coming available that do a good job of generating hot water for DHW. Expensive at the mo'. A full solar south facing roof (easier on a new build), would be very effective. Simply as you have a very large area of solar collector a lot of heat can be gained for the cost of running a pump. Also the cost of converting, or building new, a full integrated solar roof is not as much as you might think. Depending on the work done, etc, about the same, or less than installing a heat pump. A heat pump still needs a heating system, DHW, etc, etc, just like all the others. A wind genny, if you can have one, is very effective. Just have a large thermal store to store all the heat in water, for when . Then use low temperature UFH. The best of heat pumps at the mo', in running costs, is the equiv to a natural gas condensing boiler. A condensing boiler can be had for £500-700. LPG may even work out cheaper too. As LPG condensing boilers are only slightly more expensive than NG boilers, doing the figures, it may also be more appealing than a heat pump. A condensing boiler is very low capital cost compared to a heat pump. The extra 4-5K spent on a heat pump buys a lot of LPG. If you are off the gas mains, and they may be run in the future, then an LPG boiler that can be converted back to ng is the answer. |
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On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:27:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
"Pete C" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:56:59 +0100, "IMM" wrote: In winter a heat pump may not be able to produce enough hot water at high enough temperatures. The alternatives a * large solar panels storing water in a large thermal store using very low temp underfloor heating. * Windpower, again using a thermal store and UFH. You may find that either of the above may come in cheaper than the heat pump. CO2 heat pumps are coming available that do a good job of generating hot water for DHW. Expensive at the mo'. A full solar south facing roof (easier on a new build), would be very effective. Simply as you have a very large area of solar collector a lot of heat can be gained for the cost of running a pump. Also the cost of converting, or building new, a full integrated solar roof is not as much as you might think. Depending on the work done, etc, about the same, or less than installing a heat pump. A heat pump still needs a heating system, DHW, etc, etc, just like all the others. A wind genny, if you can have one, is very effective. Just have a large thermal store to store all the heat in water, for when . Then use low temperature UFH. The best of heat pumps at the mo', in running costs, is the equiv to a natural gas condensing boiler. A condensing boiler can be had for £500-700. LPG may even work out cheaper too. As LPG condensing boilers are only slightly more expensive than NG boilers, doing the figures, it may also be more appealing than a heat pump. A condensing boiler is very low capital cost compared to a heat pump. The extra 4-5K spent on a heat pump buys a lot of LPG. If you are off the gas mains, and they may be run in the future, then an LPG boiler that can be converted back to ng is the answer. Hi, Thinking about it, the best option for the OP if they go for a ground source heat pump might be to use that to preheat DHW and then use normal electricity or even Economy7 to heat it further to DHW temperatures. For showers/baths you might get hot enough water from the heat pump anyway. The problem with solar is that in mid winter we average 2hrs/day of sun, so you would need a huge collector and huge amounts thermal mass to collect and store enough heat to rely on it alone for general heating. This could be doable for a new build but would be hard to retro fit. However a vacuum tube solar collector could make a useful contribution to DHW. For a new build it would be worth ensuring the south facing side of the roof could take the extra weight of a solar collector. In fact it would be nice if developers were required to make roof trusses that bit stronger to make it easy to fit a collector, instead of the usual minimal size. cheers, Pete. |
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On 25 Aug 2004 03:42:19 -0700, (Mike Deblis) wrote: Hi, I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike I have a couple of friends in Sweden with these. They are effective, but not as the entire source of energy - at least in their climate. THe attraction is partly because of the high cost of electricity. Taking the heat from the ground does cause the plants to be delayed by 3-4 weeks in the spring compared with the immediate surroundings. They have to switch the system off for at least a month in the summer, to allow recovery of the ground, Did they use a borehole or surface laid? |
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:32:26 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On 25 Aug 2004 03:42:19 -0700, (Mike Deblis) wrote: Hi, I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike I have a couple of friends in Sweden with these. They are effective, but not as the entire source of energy - at least in their climate. THe attraction is partly because of the high cost of electricity. Taking the heat from the ground does cause the plants to be delayed by 3-4 weeks in the spring compared with the immediate surroundings. They have to switch the system off for at least a month in the summer, to allow recovery of the ground, Did they use a borehole or surface laid? I believe near the surface, which would account for the effect on the vegetation. I can find out if you're interested. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:32:26 +0100, "IMM" wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On 25 Aug 2004 03:42:19 -0700, (Mike Deblis) wrote: Hi, I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike I have a couple of friends in Sweden with these. They are effective, but not as the entire source of energy - at least in their climate. THe attraction is partly because of the high cost of electricity. Taking the heat from the ground does cause the plants to be delayed by 3-4 weeks in the spring compared with the immediate surroundings. They have to switch the system off for at least a month in the summer, to allow recovery of the ground, Did they use a borehole or surface laid? I believe near the surface, which would account for the effect on the vegetation. I can find out if you're interested. Near the surface is pants. Much pants. Using a borehole would mean you don't turn the system off and higher water temps are available. |
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IMM wrote:
Near the surface is pants. Much pants. Using a borehole would mean you don't turn the system off and higher water temps are available. Uh? Why would higher temperatures be available from bore holes, it's not as if you're getting heat from the earths core. The bedrooms in our house are cut back into rock, and in summer they're like a fridge on the hottest of super hot days. I'd have thought pipes a metre below the surface would be able to extract a far higher amount of the heat from the sun as you'd be taking it from the hottest part of the ground, i.e. the part closest to, and directly heated by, the sun. -- http://gymratz.co.uk - UK's best bodybuilding supplements,gym equipment. http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for Personal Trainers or individual purchase. http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk |
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"IMM" wrote in message ... "Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:32:26 +0100, "IMM" wrote: "Andy Hall" wrote in message .. . On 25 Aug 2004 03:42:19 -0700, (Mike Deblis) wrote: Hi, I am considering a ground-source heat pump from Ice Energy... Does anyone have any experiences of these (with the coils under the lawn etc.), and has anyone worked with Ice Energy... I know these systems are relatively rare in the UK, but they are very common in Sweden and scandinavia generally. We are rural, no gas, so the economics just about add up (the house is very termally efficient...)... Thanks mike I have a couple of friends in Sweden with these. They are effective, but not as the entire source of energy - at least in their climate. THe attraction is partly because of the high cost of electricity. Taking the heat from the ground does cause the plants to be delayed by 3-4 weeks in the spring compared with the immediate surroundings. They have to switch the system off for at least a month in the summer, to allow recovery of the ground, Did they use a borehole or surface laid? I believe near the surface, which would account for the effect on the vegetation. I can find out if you're interested. Near the surface is pants. Much pants. Using a borehole would mean you don't turn the system off and higher water temps are available. But drilling a borehole if you are sitting on hard rock can get seriously expensive on drill heads. In these cases surface is the only option. |
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Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
I have a couple of friends in Sweden with these. My wife has relations in Sweden, and we have consulted them over the IVT heat pup we are considering - they use these but have a lake they use as the heat source (never less than 4C at the bottom of the lake?). Taking the heat from the ground does cause the plants to be delayed by 3-4 weeks in the spring compared with the immediate surroundings. I've heard this, but in the UK it seems to be partly apocryphal - we are a lot warmer than the Swedes, and laying under a lawn, between 1 and 2M down scarcely effects the surface temperature where the grass is. We have a 2 acre lawn (South facing) that we intend to use for this (3 x 50M trenches with 250M of "slinky" coils, vertically in 2M x 20cm trenches, backfilled with sand to 1M, then soil). The available energy absorbed by the lawn, even on winter days, is many many times what we are proposing taking from it. They have to switch the system off for at least a month in the summer, to allow recovery of the ground, In Sweden maybe - here it should not be a problem... its been suggested than in the winter we may see about 0.5C average temperature reduction at the surface. I've been looking at some UK "Energy Efficiency best Practice" reports (amongst others), and for us, the rationale looks good, especially as we will use Economy 7 to boost DHW temps, so we can run the pump at its optimum temperatures. I'm going to the Homebuilding show at Wembley next w/e to speak to Ice Energy and the other suppliers we are considering. Should be interesting.... ;-) Rebuilding and extending an old, messed about, house makes for, well... interesting times (in the old Chinese curse sense)... Thanks Mike |
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(Alan Campbell) wrote in message . com...
(Mike Deblis) wrote in message snipped lots of good stuff about heat pumps Hi Mike, I for one would appreciate if you let us all know what Ice Energy say and what else you find out. I'm also very interested in the economics of it. I always thought that there is no cost benefit to be had as the cost/kWH for the electricity is so much more expensive than the cost of oil or gas/kWH so ground source heat pumps were only of use (on purely economical grounds) if you do not have the option of gas or oil. I've tried to work it out - I'd appreciate anybody letting me know if this is completely rubbish - My (oil) boiler is rated at 22kW (I think that is 22kW/h) I read you can get 11.5kW/l of heating oil. so assuming during the winter months, my boiler runs 50% of the day I will use approx 11.5l of oil a day. Factor in efficiency (91% for me according to SEDBUK) that means roughly 12.5l/day At say 20p/l cost this means £2.50 a day. Looking at my oil bill this seems about right to me. If a heat pump is 350% efficient then for the same 11kWh of heat, I need to put in 3.14 kW of electricity for 12 hours. At say 8p/kWH that means £3 a day. Of course, economy tariffs and a high efficiency house would reduce it but on the face of it, my calculations look about right. I'm working towards self-sufficiency and am looking at generating my own electricity so a ground source heat pump would make sense for me but only when I start generating my own electricity. Alan. I've installed an air-to-water heat pump and I did a similar calculation. In my case I wanted to use the unit to provide heating in winter to a large outbuilding that I had insulated and converted to a workshop. In the summer, I use the unit in reverse to provide chilled water to cool both the workshop and the main house. (except _this 'summer' obviously!) The heat-pump works out at about 330% efficiency as it consumes 2.1Kw and produces 7Kw of heat output (or around 6Kw of cooling). This was about the largest unit I could find that would run from a single phase supply and match my anticipated load...The short term start-up current is around 10Kw(!) which has a minor lamp-dipping effect! In reality the efficiency will be lessened because the unit has to periodically defrost itself to remove frost off the outside air coils. Not needing to defrost is an advantage of using a ground source heat-pump. My house is heated by a gas-fired non-condensing combi.... on purely economic grounds this is just about cheaper to run than the heat pump. I wasn't too keen on extending the house c/h loop into the workshop (effort factor...lots of digging and the risk of freezing), and I decided that a heat-pump was a better bet than using an electric heater. (and the temptation of adding a/c to the main house might have been a factor here too). My workshop is divided into an electronics 'shop and a general diy/woodwork area. As the heat emitting device in the workshop is a fan-coil (water-to-air fan-coils or UFH are the way to go with the lower water temp produced by heat-pumps) this gave another advantage. I was able to make the electronics end of the 'shop have a higher airflow than the wood 'shop...this results in no sawdust getting in the clean(er) area! I went for air-to-water rather than ground source because I didn't want to mess about digging up my lawn. Using a water loop for the heat/chilling output side allowed easy diy installation of zoned a/c into the house. Had I not wanted to a/c the house too, I would have just installed a simple air-to-air split-packaged heat-pump to heat the workshop instead. Nick |
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"NickIniquity" wrote in message m... (Alan Campbell) wrote in message . com... (Mike Deblis) wrote in message snipped lots of good stuff about heat pumps Hi Mike, I for one would appreciate if you let us all know what Ice Energy say and what else you find out. I'm also very interested in the economics of it. I always thought that there is no cost benefit to be had as the cost/kWH for the electricity is so much more expensive than the cost of oil or gas/kWH so ground source heat pumps were only of use (on purely economical grounds) if you do not have the option of gas or oil. I've tried to work it out - I'd appreciate anybody letting me know if this is completely rubbish - My (oil) boiler is rated at 22kW (I think that is 22kW/h) I read you can get 11.5kW/l of heating oil. so assuming during the winter months, my boiler runs 50% of the day I will use approx 11.5l of oil a day. Factor in efficiency (91% for me according to SEDBUK) that means roughly 12.5l/day At say 20p/l cost this means £2.50 a day. Looking at my oil bill this seems about right to me. If a heat pump is 350% efficient then for the same 11kWh of heat, I need to put in 3.14 kW of electricity for 12 hours. At say 8p/kWH that means £3 a day. Of course, economy tariffs and a high efficiency house would reduce it but on the face of it, my calculations look about right. I'm working towards self-sufficiency and am looking at generating my own electricity so a ground source heat pump would make sense for me but only when I start generating my own electricity. Alan. I've installed an air-to-water heat pump and I did a similar calculation. In my case I wanted to use the unit to provide heating in winter to a large outbuilding that I had insulated and converted to a workshop. In the summer, I use the unit in reverse to provide chilled water to cool both the workshop and the main house. (except _this 'summer' obviously!) The heat-pump works out at about 330% efficiency as it consumes 2.1Kw and produces 7Kw of heat output (or around 6Kw of cooling). This was about the largest unit I could find that would run from a single phase supply and match my anticipated load...The short term start-up current is around 10Kw(!) which has a minor lamp-dipping effect! In reality the efficiency will be lessened because the unit has to periodically defrost itself to remove frost off the outside air coils. Not needing to defrost is an advantage of using a ground source heat-pump. My house is heated by a gas-fired non-condensing combi.... on purely economic grounds this is just about cheaper to run than the heat pump. I wasn't too keen on extending the house c/h loop into the workshop (effort factor...lots of digging and the risk of freezing), and I decided that a heat-pump was a better bet than using an electric heater. (and the temptation of adding a/c to the main house might have been a factor here too). My workshop is divided into an electronics 'shop and a general diy/woodwork area. As the heat emitting device in the workshop is a fan-coil (water-to-air fan-coils or UFH are the way to go with the lower water temp produced by heat-pumps) this gave another advantage. I was able to make the electronics end of the 'shop have a higher airflow than the wood 'shop...this results in no sawdust getting in the clean(er) area! I went for air-to-water rather than ground source because I didn't want to mess about digging up my lawn. Using a water loop for the heat/chilling output side allowed easy diy installation of zoned a/c into the house. Had I not wanted to a/c the house too, I would have just installed a simple air-to-air split-packaged heat-pump to heat the workshop instead. Nick Firstly I can't see why you bought a heat pump. You have gas and using an inefficient cheap boiler you equal the running cost of a heat pump You want some ventilation. That can be done by using just fans and ducting. The UK doesn't need cooling as decent ventilation, with added insulation, will be enough. To me it sounds as if you spent a lot of money to stand still. |
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On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:01:35 GMT, Rick Dipper
wrote: I really want one of these type of systems, my place is remote, oil woud have to be loaded on a tractor to get there. I have read quite a bit. Some issues. The further down you get the colleting pipe the better. you can dig deep trenches and put the pipe in loops vertically in the tranch. You need to get good contact bewteen the pipe and the soil, so backfilling with lumpy clay is not a brilliant idea, sand is better. You can cool the ground if you pump too much, and then effieciency reduces. If you can get the pipe into flowing water, much better. A local has told me that he knows a guy with a well digging machine on the back of a land rover, this might be better for me. I have a small stream that runs in the winter neer my house so I will run my pipe in that and on the land, I will look at this guy who can dig wells too. The heat output from these things is arround 40 degrees, you can get hoter but efficeincey drops. 40 degrees is just right for underfloor heating, so the two in combination should good. I will look at suplementing with solar pannels for hot water, and log fires for cold winter nights. I reckon that where you put the pipe is critical, and that is worth putting too much in. And you can run them in reverse in summer, to dump heat back into the ground for collong, not all pumps support this. Hi, Sounds good, but if your current heating is OK it might be worth waiting a few years; energy prices will go up but so will heat pump efficiency. cheers, Pete. |
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"Rick Dipper" wrote in message ... I really want one of these type of systems, my place is remote, oil woud have to be loaded on a tractor to get there. You'd better make sure your electricty supply is up to it. Heat pumps use about 20 to 25% of their output as input electricity. Given that you may still want to use existing heavy electrical usage equipment (cooker, shower, etc) this extra load may cause the line to be overloaded. We had a survey done by one heat pump company with the aim of using our stream as the heat source and they thought we would have to get the cable uprated. |
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