Sorry,,, another question....

I understand that the stone resin shower trays are very heavy. The position
of where I want my shower will mean that I need to drill holes through the
joists (estimated around 3 of them) to get the waste pipe through.

Will the drilled joists with what I believe to be 1.5 inch plumbing be
strong enough to support the tray?

Also, from Googling I understand that I need to mount the tray on a mortar
base. What I thought I would do is replace the current MDF floor boards with
a suitable hard wood that I can tile on top of.

I presume then I just put my mortar mix on top of my new boards and set the
resin tray into that.

My question is do I just put a flat layer of mortar on the floor or at
strategic points?

Will the mortar make the shower tray higher than the tiles?

I presume I just scrape away the excess around the outside edge of the tray
to make a neat finish?

Sorry for the beginners questions but I know nothing about this at all! I'm
determined to learn and do this myself rather than get a plumber in - famous
last words!

CM.

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:29:22 +0000 (UTC), "Charles Middleton"
wrote:

Sorry,,, another question....

I understand that the stone resin shower trays are very heavy. The position
of where I want my shower will mean that I need to drill holes through the
joists (estimated around 3 of them) to get the waste pipe through.

Will the drilled joists with what I believe to be 1.5 inch plumbing be
strong enough to support the tray?


This could be a bad idea. The waste plumbing for a shower tray is
either 32 or 40mm so I would check. Also you have to have a
reasonable slope for the water to run away. Drilling holes of this
size in a floor joist can be a bad idea because of the weakening
effect - I would seek professional advice on that.


Also, from Googling I understand that I need to mount the tray on a mortar
base. What I thought I would do is replace the current MDF floor boards with
a suitable hard wood that I can tile on top of.

Generally 18mm WBP ply (commonly available) is a good choice.



I presume then I just put my mortar mix on top of my new boards and set the
resin tray into that.

My question is do I just put a flat layer of mortar on the floor or at
strategic points?

You need a mortar base for the whole thing. This is to take out
unevennesses in the finish of the underside so that the load is spread
evenly. The manufacturer's instructions will normally stipulate it
and void the warranty if you don't.

Will the mortar make the shower tray higher than the tiles?

It would do. I would suggest you put the tray in place and tile up
to it. For other bathroom fittings like toilet and pedestal basic
etc. then tile underneath - it's easier and better.


I presume I just scrape away the excess around the outside edge of the tray
to make a neat finish?

Sorry for the beginners questions but I know nothing about this at all! I'm
determined to learn and do this myself rather than get a plumber in - famous
last words!

CM.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:29:22 +0000 (UTC), "Charles Middleton"
wrote:

This could be a bad idea. The waste plumbing for a shower tray is
either 32 or 40mm so I would check. Also you have to have a
reasonable slope for the water to run away. Drilling holes of this
size in a floor joist can be a bad idea because of the weakening
effect - I would seek professional advice on that.

Another badly planned project on my part then. I'm not sure what other
options I have and the shower & tray is arriving tomorrow. I thought that it
was safe to put holes in the joists providing that a) it was close to the
supporting wall and b) the hole went through the middle of the joist and c)
the diameter of the hole was no bigger than two thirds of the joist?

Also, I was planning to put a slight incline on the run through the joists
to provide this.

Generally 18mm WBP ply (commonly available) is a good choice.

So board the floor with 18mm WBP and then mount tray on motor base on top of
that.

You need a mortar base for the whole thing. This is to take out
unevennesses in the finish of the underside so that the load is spread
evenly. The manufacturer's instructions will normally stipulate it
and void the warranty if you don't.

So the mortar really provides a base between the ply and the bottom of the
tray which I presume doesn't touch the floor. Its likely in this case then
that the mortar will be contained inside and underneath the tray - no
problem.

CM.

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:13:29 +0000 (UTC), "Charles Middleton"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:29:22 +0000 (UTC), "Charles Middleton"
wrote:

This could be a bad idea. The waste plumbing for a shower tray is
either 32 or 40mm so I would check. Also you have to have a
reasonable slope for the water to run away. Drilling holes of this
size in a floor joist can be a bad idea because of the weakening
effect - I would seek professional advice on that.

Another badly planned project on my part then. I'm not sure what other
options I have and the shower & tray is arriving tomorrow. I thought that it
was safe to put holes in the joists providing that a) it was close to the
supporting wall and b) the hole went through the middle of the joist and c)
the diameter of the hole was no bigger than two thirds of the joist?

I am not sure on this. You could try pinging those in the know like
Tony Bryer.



Also, I was planning to put a slight incline on the run through the joists
to provide this.

Generally 18mm WBP ply (commonly available) is a good choice.

So board the floor with 18mm WBP and then mount tray on motor base on top of
that.

Yes.



You need a mortar base for the whole thing. This is to take out
unevennesses in the finish of the underside so that the load is spread
evenly. The manufacturer's instructions will normally stipulate it
and void the warranty if you don't.

So the mortar really provides a base between the ply and the bottom of the
tray which I presume doesn't touch the floor. Its likely in this case then
that the mortar will be contained inside and underneath the tray - no
problem.

Exactly. It needs to be under the central area and around the rim.
The manufacturer's instructions should give details, but normally
about 10mm or so is used.

Also you need to do some dry runs to align the waste plumbing. There
are shower bottle traps with a mushroom lid where you can remove the
strainer from the top. These have a rubber washer.

What I did was to do the alignment using wooden spacers to get the
height right and then adjust the plumbing. When fitting, I used a
smear of silicone under and above the washer and put it on the trap,
then positioned the tray, applied more silicone to the top part of the
fitting where it screws into the base and finally tightened it all.





CM.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Another badly planned project on my part then. I'm not sure what other
options I have and the shower & tray is arriving tomorrow. I thought that
it
was safe to put holes in the joists providing that a) it was close to the
supporting wall and b) the hole went through the middle of the joist and
c)
the diameter of the hole was no bigger than two thirds of the joist?

Also, I was planning to put a slight incline on the run through the joists
to provide this.



I have just looked in a plumbing manual (from 1995) - it says holes cannot
be bigger than 1/4 of the depth of the beam and the zone in which they can
be made is between 0.25 and 0.4 of the length of the beam from wall.
Also,the holes must not be below the centre of the beam or closer than 3
times the diameter to any other holes.

Dave

"logized" wrote in message
...

I have just looked in a plumbing manual (from 1995) - it says holes cannot
be bigger than 1/4 of the depth of the beam and the zone in which they can
be made is between 0.25 and 0.4 of the length of the beam from wall.
Also,the holes must not be below the centre of the beam or closer than 3
times the diameter to any other holes.

Dave

Thanks for the info. What's the typical depth of a joist? My house was built
in 1995 if it makes any difference.

CM.

"Charles Middleton" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:29:22 +0000 (UTC), "Charles Middleton"
wrote:

This could be a bad idea. The waste plumbing for a shower tray is
either 32 or 40mm so I would check. Also you have to have a
reasonable slope for the water to run away. Drilling holes of this
size in a floor joist can be a bad idea because of the weakening
effect - I would seek professional advice on that.

Another badly planned project on my part then. I'm not sure what other
options I have and the shower & tray is arriving tomorrow. I thought that
it
was safe to put holes in the joists providing that a) it was close to the
supporting wall and b) the hole went through the middle of the joist and
c)
the diameter of the hole was no bigger than two thirds of the joist?

Also, I was planning to put a slight incline on the run through the joists
to provide this.

Generally 18mm WBP ply (commonly available) is a good choice.

So board the floor with 18mm WBP and then mount tray on motor base on top
of
that.

You need a mortar base for the whole thing. This is to take out
unevennesses in the finish of the underside so that the load is spread
evenly. The manufacturer's instructions will normally stipulate it
and void the warranty if you don't.

So the mortar really provides a base between the ply and the bottom of the
tray which I presume doesn't touch the floor. Its likely in this case then
that the mortar will be contained inside and underneath the tray - no
problem.

CM.


I had a similar problem where I needed to run a soil pipe through a joist,
and remove all but about an inch of it. So, I made up a steel plate about a
foot long, full joist height from 5mm steel, with a suitable cutout for the
pipe. I then welded a length of 6mm x 50mm x50mm angle iron along the bottom
of the plate for good measure. Added mounting holes and bolted the whole
thing to the joist with coach bolts, BEFORE cutting the joist.
Cut the joist with plate in place, and even if I jump up and down on it, it
has no movement at all!

Took about an hour with a metal jigsaw blade and the welder to make out of
scrap lying around the garage.

OK, so if you don't have a welder it may be a problem, but just a large
steel plate will help put strength back into the joist that you need to cut
out for the waste pipe....

Alan.

In article , Charles Middleton wrote:
Another badly planned project on my part then. I'm not sure what other
options I have and the shower & tray is arriving tomorrow. I thought
that it was safe to put holes in the joists providing that a) it was
close to the supporting wall and b) the hole went through the middle
of the joist and c) the diameter of the hole was no bigger than two
thirds of the joist?

Generally not. You'll find a nice diagram of what is acceptable without
calculations in a guidance note on the Tameside website -
http://www.tameside.gov.uk/tmbc8/note07.pdf

i.e. holes max D/4 at between 0.25 and 0.4 of the span

Having said this, the usual practice in domestic construction is to make
all the joists the same size, said size of course being determined by the
longest span. If the bathroom is over the kitchen and you've got (say)
50x200 joists when you really only need 50x125 over this particular span
then you can obviously chop a lot more out without causing problems but
it would need to be verified by a structural engineer.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"Charles Middleton" wrote in message
...

"logized" wrote in message
...

I have just looked in a plumbing manual (from 1995) - it says holes
cannot
be bigger than 1/4 of the depth of the beam and the zone in which they
can
be made is between 0.25 and 0.4 of the length of the beam from wall.
Also,the holes must not be below the centre of the beam or closer than 3
times the diameter to any other holes.

Dave

Thanks for the info. What's the typical depth of a joist? My house was
built
in 1995 if it makes any difference.

CM.


I don't know what would be a typical depth of joist, I suppose it depends on
the span length and building regulations.
Here is a web page that agrees with the specifications for holes in joists
in my plumbing manual -
http://www.ukcopperboard.co.uk/downl...per%20tube.pdf

Dave

Charles Middleton wrote:


Thanks for the info. What's the typical depth of a joist? My house was built
in 1995 if it makes any difference.

between 175 and 220mm is common.

Have you considered building a platform to put the shower on? That would
then let you run the waste above the floor level. Once boxed in and
tiled it looks quite neat.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Have you considered building a platform to put the shower on? That would
then let you run the waste above the floor level. Once boxed in and
tiled it looks quite neat.

You beat me to it, John; I'm doing exactly this at the moment (well, sort
of - there's a heap in the corner of the garage comprising stone resin
tray, shower door, some bits of 4x2, and a sheet of WBP ply, all gathering
dust... SWMBO is not a happy cat)

Charles - providing you've got enough ceiling height I think this method is
a no-brainer; just set your sheet of ply on top of 4 lengths of 4"x2"
timber, pref arranged at 90 deg to the existing joists. You need a shallow
trap for the waste (ie designed for a shower), and you should then be able
to take the pipe through the floorboards. if need be, to wherever it needs
to go, without chopping up any joists.

If you attach a removable panel on the front (ie twixt shower tray and
floor) you'll easily be able to access the plumbing afterwards for
maintenance purposes (with a shower tray lying flat on the floor, aften the
only alternatives are trashing the shower tray or removing the ceiling
below. Ouch, in either case).

David

Lobster wrote:

You beat me to it, John; I'm doing exactly this at the moment (well, sort
of - there's a heap in the corner of the garage comprising stone resin
tray, shower door, some bits of 4x2, and a sheet of WBP ply, all gathering
dust... SWMBO is not a happy cat)

;-)

AOL_Mode

Me too!

/AOL_Mode

Just screwing on the plasterboards now - so not too long until I reach
the new bathroom.

The annoying thing is, that I could have got away with running the waste
under the floor since it would have been a straight run parallel to the
joists. Only problem was it would have come our slap bang in the middle
of the residual bit of pitched roof at the end of the dormer. I thought
it would look a bit daft with a shower waste pipe emerging from a
soffit, hence why I shall probably go for the "build a platform"
solution like yours.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Have you considered building a platform to put the shower on? That would
then let you run the waste above the floor level. Once boxed in and
tiled it looks quite neat.

Hi, I assume that the platform would need to be slightly bigger than the
actual shower tray (900mm x 900mm) which may pose some problems but I can
look into that when I'm back home at the weekend.

How high would the platform need to be? I am assuming that I will also need
a boxed in section down the one wall to run the pipe at floor level. Any
ideas on the best way to construct this and how far it would need to come
out from the wall?

Is it easy to tile onto wood and is there some sort of edging strip that I
can use to make the edge between the sides and top of the platform nice and
neat?

Thanks in advance,

CM.

"Charles Middleton" wrote in message
...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Have you considered building a platform to put the shower on? That would
then let you run the waste above the floor level. Once boxed in and
tiled it looks quite neat.

Hi, I assume that the platform would need to be slightly bigger than the
actual shower tray (900mm x 900mm) which may pose some problems but I can
look into that when I'm back home at the weekend.

How high would the platform need to be? I am assuming that I will also
need
a boxed in section down the one wall to run the pipe at floor level. Any
ideas on the best way to construct this and how far it would need to come
out from the wall?

Is it easy to tile onto wood and is there some sort of edging strip that I
can use to make the edge between the sides and top of the platform nice
and
neat?

Thinking about this a bit more I'm not going to be able put the shower on a
platform. I am presuming the platform is square. This wont be any good as
its the curved quadrant that's giving me clearance for something else -
namely my feet whilst I'm on the bog! Putting in a square platform is going
to remove that benefit.

Back to the drawing board - the worrying thing is that my plumber said it
would have been fine to drill through the joists and after checking the
diagram on the link provided logized no way is this the case!

CM.

In message , Charles Middleton
writes

Thinking about this a bit more I'm not going to be able put the shower on a
platform. I am presuming the platform is square. This wont be any good as
its the curved quadrant that's giving me clearance for something else -
namely my feet whilst I'm on the bog! Putting in a square platform is going
to remove that benefit.

Then make a curved platform......

I put in 900 mm quadrant tray a few years ago.

I cut a piece of 18mm WBP ply to match the size and shape of the tray
(actually a bit bigger on the wall sides as a bit went into the chopped
out plaster of the wall.)

Supported the ply on 4x2's so arranged as to allow the waste to exit,
and allow access from outside if necessary (though I used a top access
waste) Tray bedded down on mortar as per instructions. Waste runs under
the base to the wall then turns and runs along the wall to the outlet, -
it's hidden behind built in cupboards, normal boxing in would be fine.

Fiddliest bit is cladding the curved open base.

In the end I cut pieces of scrap 2x1 to stand vertically under the ply
flush with the front - spread along the curved front. - they fit tight,
but I also glued them in place. Then I used a couple of pieces of white
UPVC trim strip screwed to the timber (screws covered with white caps)

IIRC, I used two pieces of strip (one cut down) one above the other
(total height is about 120mm I guess) as strip of the suitable size for
one piece was not flexible enough.

I'm pleased with the final result.
--
Chris French, Leeds

"chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Charles Middleton

snip excellent idea

IIRC, I used two pieces of strip (one cut down) one above the other
(total height is about 120mm I guess) as strip of the suitable size for
one piece was not flexible enough.

I'm pleased with the final result.

This sounds like a good idea, especially it its only around 120mm of the
floor (so it will look less when I have tiled up to it anyway).

Where did you get the PVC from?

How did you make the join between that and the shower tray nice and neat?

I would want to extend this in a box section down one wall - how far would I
need it to come away from the wall for a shower waste and what's the best
way to make the box section for tiling onto?

CM.

Charles Middleton wrote:

Hi, I assume that the platform would need to be slightly bigger than the
actual shower tray (900mm x 900mm) which may pose some problems but I can
look into that when I'm back home at the weekend.

It can be the same size and shape if you want.

How high would the platform need to be? I am assuming that I will also need

High enough to give you enough fall on the waste pipe. Hence it is
dictated a little by the length of the horizontal run of the pipe. 4" to
6" would be about normal.

a boxed in section down the one wall to run the pipe at floor level. Any
ideas on the best way to construct this and how far it would need to come
out from the wall?

Either just enough to cover the pipe, or, some people like to make it
bigger and taller so as to make a feature shelf of it.

Is it easy to tile onto wood and is there some sort of edging strip that I
can use to make the edge between the sides and top of the platform nice and
neat?

You get the plastic tiling trims. These are fixed in place before you
tile and have a neat rounded edge. You choose one that matches the
colour of your tiles, or go for one of the more tarty ones like chrome
or brushed ali effect.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Charles Middleton wrote:

Thinking about this a bit more I'm not going to be able put the shower on a
platform. I am presuming the platform is square. This wont be any good as
its the curved quadrant that's giving me clearance for something else -
namely my feet whilst I'm on the bog! Putting in a square platform is going
to remove that benefit.

You can make the platform curved to match the tray. If you then stick
some uprights under the front edge along the perimiter of the curve you
should be able to wrap some 1/4" ply round the quadrant. You can then
tile along the curve using tiles cut into 2" wide vertical strips. Will
probably look quite nice.

Back to the drawing board - the worrying thing is that my plumber said it
would have been fine to drill through the joists and after checking the
diagram on the link provided logized no way is this the case!

So much for the oft repeated advice to seek professional advice huh.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , Charles Middleton
writes

"chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Charles Middleton

snip excellent idea

IIRC, I used two pieces of strip (one cut down) one above the other
(total height is about 120mm I guess) as strip of the suitable size for
one piece was not flexible enough.

I'm pleased with the final result.

This sounds like a good idea, especially it its only around 120mm of the
floor (so it will look less when I have tiled up to it anyway).

Where did you get the PVC from?

IIRC, I bought it from Wickes. It's the sort of trims used around PVC
windows, should be easy enough to get hold of.

How did you make the join between that and the shower tray nice and neat?


The top edge of the trim has a rounded edge. I smoothed the edge of the
ply base to match as much as possible the tray, and had to scrape away a
little mortar as well (better forward panning would have helped here.)
The trim fits quite nicely against the outer edge of the tray and I just
sealed it with some sealant.

I would want to extend this in a box section down one wall - how far would I
need it to come away from the wall for a shower waste

Not much, assuming 40mm waste, clipped to the wall - say 50 - 60 mm
projection from wall. You just need to leave enough clearance for this
Overall size say about 75mm? . Though you can make it wider and taller
if you want to make it a shelf.

and what's the best
way to make the box section for tiling onto?

for something this small, I'd probably use ply 12mm would probably do,
but if I had 18mm spare I'd use that. Say, fix a bit of batten to the
wall above the waste pipe, either use another batten on the floor, or
those plastic corner joiners to fix an upright strip of ply or suitable
piece of wood to the floor, then make a lid from a strip of ply and
screen it to the wall batten and upright. Prime and then tile.
--
Chris French, Leeds