With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price
verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general



The constant things in these threads is, is there a need to go for the
best
as in specs or best as in value for money


The answer is there isn't one simple answer


If specs were the be all and end all then why do Makita/Dewalt still
sell
9.6 volt tools when there are higher spec'd 24 volt ones around. Why
do they
make different rated tools in each voltage band, why do some come with
1.3
ah batts when 3.3 ah batts are available



If all you do Diy wise is the odd shelf or putting up hanging basket
brackets than a 300 quid plus Makita cordless isn't the tool for you.
That's
more like a job for a 20 quid powerdevil from Argos hell its will even
probably come with a selection of wall plugs ,drills and screws for
you to
do the jobs with! That doesn't mean that the mak can't do the job it
just
not the most sensible purchase in that instance



If you have a 10' by 10' lawn in the back garden you don't buy a sit
on
lawnmower


If you have to polyfiller a few holes in the plaster before you paint
then
you don't need a random orbit or belt sander


If you have to cut up a few battens for a shelf in an alcove then a
sliding
compound mitre saw isn't needed


Conversely going on price


If you are building a kitchen extension a power devil drill wont last
long


Cutting an acre of lawn isn't a job for a flymo


If you are going to have to sand down a whole house worth of doors
skirtings
etc you aint going to do it with a sanding block


If you are going to be putting down a hardwood floor with wide boards
you
are not going to use a 30 quid mitre saw from b+q




If drilling a hole in a wall for a wall plug then a power devil is
going to be
easier than doing it with a handdrill, an 800 watt drill will do it
quicker
than a 400 watt one , a challenge sds drill will do it quicker than a
800
watt, and an under £80 jcb, bosch etc is an lot easier to use than a
challenge, and a top of the range dewalt /Makita will again be lighter
and easier to use


Does than mean if you don't own a dewalt/Makita SDS that you can't
drill
holes in walls?


I suppose it comes down to why you DIY


Some people do it to save money get the job done as simply and cheaply
as possible, and some do it themselves so that they can have a real
top notch job done with the highest spec'd items. and every variation
inbetween. It doesnt make one approach better or worse than another
it's just a different approach the one the suits that persons needs or
wallet at the time.

I have a performance power 1/4" router and have for many years, has it
fallen
apart no, can it trim 3/8" from the bottom of a hardwood door yes, ok
I may
have to take more passes then a 1/2" trend but then its was a fraction
of the
price, it certain mortised out for the hinges a hell of a lot quicker
than doing it with a chisel, would I like a 1/2" inch trend yes for
sure who
wouldn't but until I need one I'll keep the PP one

On the opposite side I have a 30 quid 12v cordless drill that now
isn't up to the jobs I would like to do with it so am looking around
for something beefier

For wood chisels I have several good ones that take a good keen edge
and a
few from poundland. I use the ones from poundland for rough work and
doing
things where I wouldn't risk a good one does it make the poundland
ones that will not hold an edge crap no , does it make the better
ones to highly
specified no, you use the tool that is appropriate for the job.



Well that's my tuppence worth



Steve

I know this post has been posted before had problems since switching
to broadband with newservers and on checking google found the posts
couldnt be seen

steve wrote:

With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price

Oh no - he has started another one! ;-)

verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general

snip many good points, well made

The answer is there isn't one simple answer

This is the essence of the question I believe. Hence why I have
difficulty understanding the mindset that seeks to reduce everything to
"a one size fits all" answer. Even more bemusing is the mind that thinks
it can speak with authority for all (or 99%) of people on the subject!

(i.e. the tool equivalent of stating that everyone should buy a Ford
Fiesta, and there is no need for any other type of vehicle unless you
are a bus driver! (no disrespect to Fiesta owners intended))

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
steve wrote:

With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price

Oh no - he has started another one! ;-)

verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general

snip many good points, well made

The answer is there isn't one simple answer

This is the essence of the question I believe. Hence why I have
difficulty understanding the mindset that seeks to reduce everything to
"a one size fits all" answer. Even more bemusing is the mind that thinks
it can speak with authority for all (or 99%) of people on the subject!

I know what you mean.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
This is the essence of the question I believe. Hence why I have
difficulty understanding the mindset that seeks to reduce everything
to "a one size fits all" answer. Even more bemusing is the mind that
thinks it can speak with authority for all (or 99%) of people on the
subject!

I know what you mean.

Well, why do it?

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

steve wrote:

With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price
verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general

snip a ling winded way of saying...

COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS.

It's really that simple, what does it cost in every sense, and what
benefit do you derive from it?

Should I buy a 60K brand new Merc with 6 years full warranty, or a 600
quid old banger that will get me to the shops and back for a year before
being scrapped?

Only I can answser that. Because its down to the miles I might do, my
perception of the value of a shiny new car in the drive versus a rusty
old banger etc.

So its a totally silly question, It had to be in the first place as I
looked at the legnth of the DeWalt thread and the number of posts by IMM.

And ignored it.

On 15 Aug 2004 15:22:26 -0700, (steve) wrote:

With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price
verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general



The constant things in these threads is, is there a need to go for the
best
as in specs or best as in value for money


The answer is there isn't one simple answer

No there isn't.




If specs were the be all and end all then why do Makita/Dewalt still
sell
9.6 volt tools when there are higher spec'd 24 volt ones around. Why
do they
make different rated tools in each voltage band, why do some come with
1.3
ah batts when 3.3 ah batts are available


Because for some tools, 9.6v may be enough. For example, I have a
Makita angle driver which is highly geared. This does not need to
turn rapidly but does need good torque, so 9.6v through a gear box is
a suitable approach.





If all you do Diy wise is the odd shelf or putting up hanging basket
brackets than a 300 quid plus Makita cordless isn't the tool for you.
That's
more like a job for a 20 quid powerdevil from Argos hell its will even
probably come with a selection of wall plugs ,drills and screws for
you to
do the jobs with! That doesn't mean that the mak can't do the job it
just
not the most sensible purchase in that instance


If that is all it is then I would agree. However, DIY goes way
beyond that and it is not long before the Argos thing won't do a good
enough job.




If you have a 10' by 10' lawn in the back garden you don't buy a sit
on
lawnmower


If you have to polyfiller a few holes in the plaster before you paint
then
you don't need a random orbit or belt sander


If you have to cut up a few battens for a shelf in an alcove then a
sliding
compound mitre saw isn't needed


Conversely going on price


If you are building a kitchen extension a power devil drill wont last
long


Cutting an acre of lawn isn't a job for a flymo


If you are going to have to sand down a whole house worth of doors
skirtings
etc you aint going to do it with a sanding block


If you are going to be putting down a hardwood floor with wide boards
you
are not going to use a 30 quid mitre saw from b+q




If drilling a hole in a wall for a wall plug then a power devil is
going to be
easier than doing it with a handdrill, an 800 watt drill will do it
quicker
than a 400 watt one , a challenge sds drill will do it quicker than a
800
watt, and an under £80 jcb, bosch etc is an lot easier to use than a
challenge, and a top of the range dewalt /Makita will again be lighter
and easier to use


Does than mean if you don't own a dewalt/Makita SDS that you can't
drill
holes in walls?


I suppose it comes down to why you DIY


and the quality of work that you would like to achieve.



Some people do it to save money get the job done as simply and cheaply
as possible, and some do it themselves so that they can have a real
top notch job done with the highest spec'd items. and every variation
inbetween. It doesnt make one approach better or worse than another
it's just a different approach the one the suits that persons needs or
wallet at the time.

This is one point. If you take the labour cost saved, it will fund
an excellent complement of good quality tools.




I have a performance power 1/4" router and have for many years, has it
fallen
apart no, can it trim 3/8" from the bottom of a hardwood door yes, ok
I may
have to take more passes then a 1/2" trend but then its was a fraction
of the
price, it certain mortised out for the hinges a hell of a lot quicker
than doing it with a chisel, would I like a 1/2" inch trend yes for
sure who
wouldn't but until I need one I'll keep the PP one

If you were doing much more than this, you would become very
frustrated with it.



On the opposite side I have a 30 quid 12v cordless drill that now
isn't up to the jobs I would like to do with it so am looking around
for something beefier

For wood chisels I have several good ones that take a good keen edge
and a
few from poundland. I use the ones from poundland for rough work and
doing
things where I wouldn't risk a good one does it make the poundland
ones that will not hold an edge crap no , does it make the better
ones to highly
specified no, you use the tool that is appropriate for the job.


Try some good chisels some time.

For example, I have a couple of Record planes and some Lie-Nielsens.

The difference is chalk and cheese, but I wouldn't use the
Lie-Nielsens on rough old timber.




Well that's my tuppence worth



Steve

I know this post has been posted before had problems since switching
to broadband with newservers and on checking google found the posts
couldnt be seen

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
steve wrote:

With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price
verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general

snip a ling winded way of saying...

COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS.

It's really that simple, what does it cost in every sense, and what
benefit do you derive from it?

Should I buy a 60K brand new Merc with 6 years full warranty, or a 600
quid old banger that will get me to the shops and back for a year before
being scrapped?

Only I can answser that. Because its down to the miles I might do, my
perception of the value of a shiny new car in the drive versus a rusty
old banger etc.

So its a totally silly question, It had to be in the first place as I
looked at the legnth of the DeWalt thread and the number of posts by IMM.

That is sad. You are now far less wise than before. Reread the thread 4
times, and all my posts 6 times. It is for your own good.

Andy Hall wrote:

On 15 Aug 2004 15:22:26 -0700, (steve) wrote:


With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price
verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general



The constant things in these threads is, is there a need to go for the
best
as in specs or best as in value for money


The answer is there isn't one simple answer


No there isn't.




If specs were the be all and end all then why do Makita/Dewalt still
sell
9.6 volt tools when there are higher spec'd 24 volt ones around. Why
do they
make different rated tools in each voltage band, why do some come with
1.3
ah batts when 3.3 ah batts are available



Because for some tools, 9.6v may be enough. For example, I have a
Makita angle driver which is highly geared. This does not need to
turn rapidly but does need good torque, so 9.6v through a gear box is
a suitable approach.


Look. Its all tosh. You can get as much power from a 3v motor as a 300v
motor. You just put less turns of thicker wire on it.

All this 'voltage' ******** comes from the days when you had crappo SUB
C cells that could do about 10 amps a piece at 1.1v roughly. So you HAD
to use more cells to get up the power. Now you can get - as has been
remarked - 3300 mA/h cells that have been clocked at a little short of
100A. So the voltage has become almost irrelevant. In terms of power
production. Of course in terms of competitive marketing to dimwits like
IMM its probably highly relevant. 'Goes up to 11' and all that. :-)


As far as torque goes, that's why god gave us gearboxes.

I am not saying more.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:

On 15 Aug 2004 15:22:26 -0700, (steve) wrote:


With reference to recent threads mostly about power tools and the
price
verses value issues that always seem to arise I thought I would put
down a
few words and it isn't pro or anti any one person just a few
observations in
general



The constant things in these threads is, is there a need to go for the
best
as in specs or best as in value for money


The answer is there isn't one simple answer


No there isn't.




If specs were the be all and end all then why do Makita/Dewalt still
sell
9.6 volt tools when there are higher spec'd 24 volt ones around. Why
do they
make different rated tools in each voltage band, why do some come with
1.3
ah batts when 3.3 ah batts are available



Because for some tools, 9.6v may be enough. For example, I have a
Makita angle driver which is highly geared. This does not need to
turn rapidly but does need good torque, so 9.6v through a gear box is
a suitable approach.


Look. Its all tosh. You can get as much power from a 3v motor as a 300v
motor. You just put less turns of thicker wire on it.

All this 'voltage' ******** comes from the days when you had crappo SUB
C cells that could do about 10 amps a piece at 1.1v roughly. So you HAD
to use more cells to get up the power. Now you can get - as has been
remarked - 3300 mA/h cells that have been clocked at a little short of
100A. So the voltage has become almost irrelevant. In terms of power
production. Of course in terms of competitive marketing to dimwits like
IMM its probably highly relevant. 'Goes up to 11' and all that. :-)

What are you babbling about? You have been drinking the afternoons again
haven't you?

As far as torque goes, that's why god gave us gearboxes.

I am not saying more.

Best not, as gearboxes are unnecesary with electric motors if the motor is
designed and sized for the work in hand. They are also energy consuming.
There is no need for them in cars if the 4 stoke engine is dropped and
eectronics take over the engine management. Using valves activated by
soleniods not a belt from the crank, on a 4-stoke, the timing can be so that
torque is delivered exactly where and when, eliminating a gearbox.

If the efficiency of the IC engine is improved enough, ior a Stirling used,
it may be used to power an alternator that powers small electric motors on
each wheel. The electric motors are then the "gearbox".

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Best not, as gearboxes are unnecesary with electric motors if the motor
is designed and sized for the work in hand. They are also energy
consuming. There is no need for them in cars if the 4 stoke engine is
dropped and eectronics take over the engine management. Using valves
activated by soleniods not a belt from the crank, on a 4-stoke, the
timing can be so that torque is delivered exactly where and when,
eliminating a gearbox.

Now I know you've flipped. Variable valve timing for IC engines isn't new,
and yet those cars which use it have *more* gears than ever before.

If the efficiency of the IC engine is improved enough, ior a Stirling
used, it may be used to power an alternator that powers small electric
motors on each wheel. The electric motors are then the "gearbox".

No they aren't. They become the drivetrain.

You plainly think that anything electrical is 100% efficient. This doesn't
surprise, given you don't understand it.
An electric motor with a wide speed range will have varying efficiency at
different speeds.

--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
Best not, as gearboxes are unnecesary with electric motors if the
motor is designed and sized for the work in hand. They are also
energy consuming. There is no need for them in cars if the 4 stoke
engine is dropped and eectronics take over the engine management.
Using valves activated by soleniods

No such engines exist.

They do in his mind. He doesn't understand the principles of an IC engine,
so thinks they can be tweaked to run properly from a standstill as a steam
engine can.

--
*Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

[4 stoke]

No such engines exist.

They do in his mind. He doesn't understand the principles of an IC engine,
so thinks they can be tweaked to run properly from a standstill as a steam
engine can.

Hence his description of "4 stoke". :-)

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

In article ,
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:
Hence his description of "4 stoke". :-)

Probably confusing them with his Tango dancing partners...

--
*Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:
Hence his description of "4 stoke". :-)

Probably confusing them with his Tango dancing partners...

Miss whip at the Derby and Joan club?

Maxie, you can't stop can you? You are on about whips now.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics) wrote:
Hence his description of "4 stoke". :-)

Probably confusing them with his Tango dancing partners...

Miss whip at the Derby and Joan club?

--
geoff