I treated parts of the fence with red oxide primer before painting it
with Hammerite. The treated parts seemed a bit more difficult to
cover with some red bits showing through and the 'grip' was not quite
as good.

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

(My assumption was that although Hammerite might be more difficult to
apply to a pre-treated surface, it might last longer.)

Any advice appreciated, thanks. .

Scott wrote:
I treated parts of the fence with red oxide primer before painting it
with Hammerite. The treated parts seemed a bit more difficult to
cover with some red bits showing through and the 'grip' was not quite
as good.

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

(My assumption was that although Hammerite might be more difficult to
apply to a pre-treated surface, it might last longer.)

Last time I was painting cars, the problem with Hammerite was that it would
pinhole - there would be tiny air bubbles in the Hammerite that would allow
water to contact the metal, and that would then start rust bubbling through
and flaking off the Hammerite.

I don't know about Hammerite's own primer, but I used Galvafroid plus spray
paint on the car which did a better job. I assume if you've used a decent
primer then any coating of that is main for cosmetic, UV protection and
similar purposes.

Randomly selecting the Wickes Red Oxide primer:
https://wickes.scene7.com/is/content...214274_COSHH_0
it contains Tri Zinc Bis Orthophosphate 10-25% which I assume is the
protective compound, ie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_phosphate
(I assume the 'red oxide' is just a colouring for old times sake)

I don't know what the compatibility issues between primer and topcoat might
be - is it possible the Hammerite is just too thin?

Theo

On 17 Jun 2020 16:50:02 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

I thoght that hammerite was supposed to be applied direct to the
metal.

Last time I was painting cars, the problem with Hammerite was that it
would pinhole - there would be tiny air bubbles in the Hammerite that
would allow water to contact the metal, and that would then start rust
bubbling through and flaking off the Hammerite.

Yes, tiny bubbles are a problem particulary when hand brushing unless
you are *extremely* careful. A second coat (within the recoat time or
you have to wait weeks)(*) solves the bubble pinhole problem.

The old and mostly cleaned up and hammerite direct to the metal gate
hinges I did, er, 15+ years ago are fine. Surface is a bit dull but
coating is 100%, no rust bubbles.

(*) The modern stuff might not be so fussy, the orginal certainly
was.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 17 Jun 2020 16:50:02 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

I thoght that hammerite was supposed to be applied direct to the
metal.

If I look at the MSDS for Hammerite:
https://www.hammerite.co.uk/files/20...T_HAMMERED.pdf

It says:
trizinc bis(orthophosphate) 1-2.5%

so it does have some protection, but 10x less than the Wickes Red Oxide
primer.

Yes, tiny bubbles are a problem particulary when hand brushing unless
you are *extremely* careful. A second coat (within the recoat time or
you have to wait weeks)(*) solves the bubble pinhole problem.

I found it was still a problem, even if I did two coats within the recoat
time. This was about 10-15 years ago though.

The old and mostly cleaned up and hammerite direct to the metal gate
hinges I did, er, 15+ years ago are fine. Surface is a bit dull but
coating is 100%, no rust bubbles.

I wonder if it has changed its formulation in recent years?

Theo

On 17 Jun 2020 22:36:44 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 17 Jun 2020 16:50:02 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

I thoght that hammerite was supposed to be applied direct to the
metal.

If I look at the MSDS for Hammerite:
https://www.hammerite.co.uk/files/20...T_HAMMERED.pdf

It says:
trizinc bis(orthophosphate) 1-2.5%

so it does have some protection, but 10x less than the Wickes Red Oxide
primer.

Is there any need to use Hammerite primer or will any red oxide primer
do just as well? I believe Hammerite uses a special solvent (thinner)
but I assume the solvent is irrelevant once the paint dries.

Yes, tiny bubbles are a problem particulary when hand brushing unless
you are *extremely* careful. A second coat (within the recoat time or
you have to wait weeks)(*) solves the bubble pinhole problem.

Why a few weeks?

I found it was still a problem, even if I did two coats within the recoat
time. This was about 10-15 years ago though.

The old and mostly cleaned up and hammerite direct to the metal gate
hinges I did, er, 15+ years ago are fine. Surface is a bit dull but
coating is 100%, no rust bubbles.

I wonder if it has changed its formulation in recent years?

What about full primer followed by ordinary black gloss paint? Would
this overcome the problem with the rust bubbles (and save money!)?

I take it water based paint is out of the question?

Theo

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:44:51 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On 17 Jun 2020 22:36:44 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 17 Jun 2020 16:50:02 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

I thoght that hammerite was supposed to be applied direct to the
metal.

If I look at the MSDS for Hammerite:
https://www.hammerite.co.uk/files/20...T_HAMMERED.pdf

It says:
trizinc bis(orthophosphate) 1-2.5%

so it does have some protection, but 10x less than the Wickes Red Oxide
primer.

Is there any need to use Hammerite primer or will any red oxide primer
do just as well? I believe Hammerite uses a special solvent (thinner)
but I assume the solvent is irrelevant once the paint dries.

Yes, tiny bubbles are a problem particulary when hand brushing unless
you are *extremely* careful. A second coat (within the recoat time or
you have to wait weeks)(*) solves the bubble pinhole problem.

Why a few weeks?

I found it was still a problem, even if I did two coats within the recoat
time. This was about 10-15 years ago though.

The old and mostly cleaned up and hammerite direct to the metal gate
hinges I did, er, 15+ years ago are fine. Surface is a bit dull but
coating is 100%, no rust bubbles.

I wonder if it has changed its formulation in recent years?

What about full primer followed by ordinary black gloss paint? Would
this overcome the problem with the rust bubbles (and save money!)?

I mean 'full primer coating'.

I take it water based paint is out of the question?

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:44:51 +0100, Scott wrote:

I believe Hammerite uses a special solvent (thinner) but I assume the
solvent is irrelevant once the paint dries.

Toluene or xylene. I think the thinners changed form one to the other
on a formulation change. The "old" thinner might have been xylene.

A second coat (within the recoat time or you have to wait
weeks)(*)
solves the bubble pinhole problem.

Why a few weeks?

Hammerite "cures" rather than "dries". Under the impression that
outside the recoat time you don't get a proper bond between the two
coats.

ISTR that there is a similar agricultral paint that is as good if not
better than Hammerite but isn't in the retail chain and probably
doesn't carry the retail markup and advertising costs... Maybe three
letters35?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:14:30 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On 17 Jun 2020 16:50:02 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

I thoght that hammerite was supposed to be applied direct to the
metal.

Last time I was painting cars, the problem with Hammerite was that it
would pinhole - there would be tiny air bubbles in the Hammerite that
would allow water to contact the metal, and that would then start rust
bubbling through and flaking off the Hammerite.

Yes, tiny bubbles are a problem particulary when hand brushing unless
you are *extremely* careful. A second coat (within the recoat time or
you have to wait weeks)(*) solves the bubble pinhole problem.

The old and mostly cleaned up and hammerite direct to the metal gate
hinges I did, er, 15+ years ago are fine. Surface is a bit dull but
coating is 100%, no rust bubbles.

(*) The modern stuff might not be so fussy, the orginal certainly
was.

AFAIC, the new stuff isn't a patch on the old.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:15:17 +0100, Cursitor Doom
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:14:30 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On 17 Jun 2020 16:50:02 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

I thoght that hammerite was supposed to be applied direct to the
metal.

Last time I was painting cars, the problem with Hammerite was that it
would pinhole - there would be tiny air bubbles in the Hammerite that
would allow water to contact the metal, and that would then start rust
bubbling through and flaking off the Hammerite.

Yes, tiny bubbles are a problem particulary when hand brushing unless
you are *extremely* careful. A second coat (within the recoat time or
you have to wait weeks)(*) solves the bubble pinhole problem.

The old and mostly cleaned up and hammerite direct to the metal gate
hinges I did, er, 15+ years ago are fine. Surface is a bit dull but
coating is 100%, no rust bubbles.

(*) The modern stuff might not be so fussy, the orginal certainly
was.

AFAIC, the new stuff isn't a patch on the old.

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.

On 17/06/2020 22:36, Theo wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 17 Jun 2020 16:50:02 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

I thoght that hammerite was supposed to be applied direct to the
metal.

If I look at the MSDS for Hammerite:
https://www.hammerite.co.uk/files/20...T_HAMMERED.pdf

It says:
trizinc bis(orthophosphate) 1-2.5%

so it does have some protection, but 10x less than the Wickes Red Oxide
primer.

Yes, tiny bubbles are a problem particulary when hand brushing unless
you are *extremely* careful. A second coat (within the recoat time or
you have to wait weeks)(*) solves the bubble pinhole problem.

I found it was still a problem, even if I did two coats within the recoat
time. This was about 10-15 years ago though.

The old and mostly cleaned up and hammerite direct to the metal gate
hinges I did, er, 15+ years ago are fine. Surface is a bit dull but
coating is 100%, no rust bubbles.

I wonder if it has changed its formulation in recent years?

I think it has, possibly to reduce the amount of ?xylene in its
formulation. The change seems to have occurred when AkzoNobel bought
Dulux paints in about 2008. VOC2010 didn't help either. The excellent
Dulux high performance presrvative primer for softwood and basecoat
sealant for hardwoods became water-based and impossible to use on
previously treated wood (unless taken back to bare wood).


Theo

On 18/06/2020 11:48, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.


Try asking on forums dedicated to restoring old agricultural
machinery. Someone there will know if there are still suppliers
of better quality external metal paint.

Who supplied the special paint for the Forth Bridge ?.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:02:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/06/2020 11:48, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.


Try asking on forums dedicated to restoring old agricultural
machinery. Someone there will know if there are still suppliers
of better quality external metal paint.

Who supplied the special paint for the Forth Bridge ?.

Leighs Paints:
https://www.coatings.org.uk/article/...undant-20.aspx

On 18/06/2020 10:10, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:44:51 +0100, Scott wrote:

I believe Hammerite uses a special solvent (thinner) but I assume the
solvent is irrelevant once the paint dries.

Toluene or xylene. I think the thinners changed form one to the other
on a formulation change. The "old" thinner might have been xylene.

A second coat (within the recoat time or you have to wait
weeks)(*)
solves the bubble pinhole problem.

Why a few weeks?

Hammerite "cures" rather than "dries". Under the impression that
outside the recoat time you don't get a proper bond between the two
coats.

The problem if you try to recoat in the gap where the polymerisation is
well advanced but not yet fully crosslinked is that the addition of a
fresh solvent rich coat on top can mess up the first coat structural
integrity. You have to add the second coat either inside the recoat time
or wait for full cure when it is almost impervious to solvent attack.

Layers of Hammerite paint applied over the decades held my old oil tank
together until the interior water line rusted through. When the guy came
to lift it out of the way the base parted from the main tank at one end.

It is fine if used as directed. The metallic versions always seem to
perform better at protecting metal than the basic colours. YMMV.

The old stuff was the best in its day apart from two part epoxy paints.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:48:29 +0100, Cursitor Doom
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.

Household paint like Dulux or Crown - presumably non-water based for
outdoor use.

In article ,
Scott wrote:
I treated parts of the fence with red oxide primer before painting it
with Hammerite. The treated parts seemed a bit more difficult to
cover with some red bits showing through and the 'grip' was not quite
as good.

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

Dunno about now, but at one time Hammerite used a different solvent to
most other paints so a bad reaction between them very common. Have you
read the instructions?

--
*Sorry, I don't date outside my species.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:27:32 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

I believe Hammerite uses a special solvent (thinner) but I assume
the
solvent is irrelevant once the paint dries.

Toluene or xylene. I think the thinners changed form one to the
other
on a formulation change. The "old" thinner might have been xylene.

Just been out to thegarage my old (15+ years) tin of hammerite
thinners is xylene.

A second coat (within the recoat time or you have to wait
weeks)(*)
solves the bubble pinhole problem.

Why a few weeks?

Hammerite "cures" rather than "dries". Under the impression that
outside the recoat time you don't get a proper bond between the
two
coats.

The problem if you try to recoat in the gap where the polymerisation is
well advanced but not yet fully crosslinked is that the addition of a
fresh solvent rich coat on top can mess up the first coat structural
integrity. You have to add the second coat either inside the recoat time
or wait for full cure when it is almost impervious to solvent attack.

Ta, end result is the same between "you don't get a proper bond" or
"mess up the structural integrity". The paint falls off quicker than
it should do. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:53:48 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
I treated parts of the fence with red oxide primer before painting it
with Hammerite. The treated parts seemed a bit more difficult to
cover with some red bits showing through and the 'grip' was not quite
as good.

Is using primer a bad idea or is it just that I should have used
Hammerite primer rather than other primer?

Dunno about now, but at one time Hammerite used a different solvent to
most other paints so a bad reaction between them very common. Have you
read the instructions?

Several times. They seem a bit vague. Primer not required as this is
direct to rust. However, Hammerite sell two primers (one ferrous, one
non-ferrous) so clearly there may be some benefit in some
circumstances. There is no warning against using non-Hammerite
primer.

I am aware of the different solvent used. However, I assumed after
the solvent evaporated this would be of no consequence in the same way
that (AIUI) you can put oil based paint on top of water based primer.

There are also various comments that the 'direct to rust' properties
of Hammerite are exaggerated.

My suspicion is that, like many products, it is just not as good as it
used to be.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:53:48 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Dunno about now, but at one time Hammerite used a different solvent to
most other paints so a bad reaction between them very common. Have you
read the instructions?

Used to be Trichlorethylene (Genklene) until it got banned under the
Montreal protocol.

"Dave Liquorice" Wrote in message:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 09:44:51 +0100, Scott wrote:

I believe Hammerite uses a special solvent (thinner) but I assume the
solvent is irrelevant once the paint dries.

Toluene or xylene. I think the thinners changed form one to the other
on a formulation change. The "old" thinner might have been xylene.

A second coat (within the recoat time or you have to wait
weeks)(*)
solves the bubble pinhole problem.

Why a few weeks?

Hammerite "cures" rather than "dries". Under the impression that
outside the recoat time you don't get a proper bond between the two
coats.

ISTR that there is a similar agricultral paint that is as good if not
better than Hammerite but isn't in the retail chain and probably
doesn't carry the retail markup and advertising costs... Maybe three
letters35?


POR? Cheap? Hahaha :-D
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Toluene or xylene. I think the thinners changed form one to the other
on a formulation change. The "old" thinner might have been xylene.

I thought it used xylene pre-reformulation

ISTR that there is a similar agricultral paint that is as good if not
better than Hammerite

POR15

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:02:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/06/2020 11:48, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.


Try asking on forums dedicated to restoring old agricultural
machinery. Someone there will know if there are still suppliers
of better quality external metal paint.

I wouldn't hesitate to use lead-based paint if the stinking EU hadn't
banned it years ago; stuck like sh1t to a blanket that stuff did.

Cursitor Doom wrote:

I wouldn't hesitate to use lead-based paint if the stinking EU hadn't
banned it

guess what? they didn't. lead carbonate paint is restricted to e.g.
listed buildings, but lead tetroxide paint is not restricted.

https://www.spab.org.uk/advice/lead-paint#main-content

Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:02:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/06/2020 11:48, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.


Try asking on forums dedicated to restoring old agricultural
machinery. Someone there will know if there are still suppliers
of better quality external metal paint.

I wouldn't hesitate to use lead-based paint if the stinking EU hadn't
banned it years ago; stuck like sh1t to a blanket that stuff did.

The phased elimination of lead paint predates the EEC.

--

Roger Hayter

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 00:00:22 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:02:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/06/2020 11:48, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.


Try asking on forums dedicated to restoring old agricultural
machinery. Someone there will know if there are still suppliers
of better quality external metal paint.

I wouldn't hesitate to use lead-based paint if the stinking EU hadn't
banned it years ago; stuck like sh1t to a blanket that stuff did.

The phased elimination of lead paint predates the EEC.

That's as maybe. But for sure the *******s have just recently banned
menthol cigarettes of all things!

On 20/06/2020 01:11:05, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 00:00:22 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:02:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/06/2020 11:48, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.


Try asking on forums dedicated to restoring old agricultural
machinery. Someone there will know if there are still suppliers
of better quality external metal paint.

I wouldn't hesitate to use lead-based paint if the stinking EU hadn't
banned it years ago; stuck like sh1t to a blanket that stuff did.

The phased elimination of lead paint predates the EEC.

That's as maybe. But for sure the *******s have just recently banned
menthol cigarettes of all things!

So we should be healthier for it.

There are other ways of 'smoking' menthol either vaping or by heating
tobacco. Both so much safer than menthol cigarettes which studies have
also shown are more dangerous than plain cigarettes.

There's nothing stopping you adding your own menthol to your cigarettes too.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 12:02:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/06/2020 11:48, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 11:27:36 +0100, Scott
wrote:

Would ordinary paint be just as good?

There's no such thing any more (if ever there was). You need to
specify exactly what you mean.


Try asking on forums dedicated to restoring old agricultural
machinery. Someone there will know if there are still suppliers
of better quality external metal paint.

I wouldn't hesitate to use lead-based paint if the stinking EU hadn't
banned it years ago; stuck like sh1t to a blanket that stuff did.

The phased elimination of lead paint predates the EEC.

Remember you're replying to Doom. Who just makes things up to suit his
agenda.

You can still buy leaded paint for specialist applications. But it makes
sense not to have it available generally.

--
*England has no kidney bank, but it does have a Liverpool.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.