On 16/06/2020 08:05, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 18:04, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 14:14, Fredxx wrote:

Forecasts by analysts LaingBuisson predict that care home
residents are
on course to account for half of England's coronavirus-related
deaths."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...navirus-tests/

There is simply no excuse as beds were often empty. I thought would
be a perfect use for the 'Nightingale" hospitals. There could be
different areas for each day of isolation without symptoms. There
were many ways to reduce infection amongst the elderly and a crying
shame no effort or resource was put this way. Furthermore the
elderly are often Tory voters so cannot understand the myopic
approach.

The Nightingale hospitals were really only ever intended for sedated
intubated people on ventilators to be watched over by minimal staff.

But when they never got used like that, it made no sense to
send the elderly in hospitals to care homes and infect those.

They were not really suitable for anything other than holding patients
in bulk and in an unconscious state until either they recovered or died.

I dont buy that unconscious state line.

Why not? It was their stated policy from the outset. Patients sent to
Nightingale hospitals would be the overflow from NHS ICU wards and would
be already on a ventilator or needing to be put on one immediately.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/corona...ty/ar-BB11Z4bw

Here is what Nightingale's chief medical director Alan McGlennan had to
say about their operation:

"He said coronavirus patients who are transferred to the hospital will
already be on a ventilator and will remain at the Nightingale until
their course of ventilation is finished."

Sure they werent really set up
for handling the very disabled or demented frail elderly,Â* but even
if say they couldnt bath very often but were capable to feeding
themselves and using normal toilets or commodes, it would have
been a lot better to have them there than getting killed by the
virus back in care homes.

They were not set up for holding conscious patients - FULL STOP.

What amazes me is that they were able to put in and test successfully
all the oxygen pipework and cryogenic tanks or gas cylinders and flow
regulators to allow it to support so many beds with oxygen that quickly.

Major hospitals were losing line oxygen pressure due to extremely high
demand for oxygen - beyond anything the designers had allowed for.

I think they did have some modest capacity in the recovery section for
people who were ready to transfer back into normal hospital care.

Of course they must have.

It was a tiny fraction though. The majority of the space was set out as
large wards for watching over immobile ventilated sedated patients.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 16/06/2020 08:05, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 18:04, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 14:14, Fredxx wrote:

Forecasts by analysts LaingBuisson predict that care home residents
are
on course to account for half of England's coronavirus-related
deaths."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...navirus-tests/
There is simply no excuse as beds were often empty. I thought would
be a perfect use for the 'Nightingale" hospitals. There could be
different areas for each day of isolation without symptoms. There
were many ways to reduce infection amongst the elderly and a crying
shame no effort or resource was put this way. Furthermore the elderly
are often Tory voters so cannot understand the myopic approach.

The Nightingale hospitals were really only ever intended for sedated
intubated people on ventilators to be watched over by minimal staff.

But when they never got used like that, it made no sense to
send the elderly in hospitals to care homes and infect those.

They were not really suitable for anything other than holding patients
in bulk and in an unconscious state until either they recovered or died.

I dont buy that unconscious state line.

Why not?

I cant see why they wouldnt have been even more
useful for those on oxygen if the hospitals had been
badly over loaded.

It was their stated policy from the outset. Patients sent to Nightingale
hospitals would be the overflow from NHS ICU wards and would be already on
a ventilator or needing to be put on one immediately.

But once they realised that far more would be
on oxygen instead of ventilators, that approach
would have worked just as well for them too.

Better in fact given that those on oxygen would have
required less individual monitoring by skilled professionals.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/corona...ty/ar-BB11Z4bw

Here is what Nightingale's chief medical director Alan McGlennan had to
say about their operation:

"He said coronavirus patients who are transferred to the hospital will
already be on a ventilator and will remain at the Nightingale until their
course of ventilation is finished."

And it turned out very different to that in reality.

Sure they werent really set up for handling the very disabled or demented
frail elderly, but even if say they couldnt bath very often but were
capable to feeding themselves and using normal toilets or commodes, it
would have been a lot better to have them there than getting killed by
the virus back in care homes.

They were not set up for holding conscious patients - FULL STOP.

I dont buy that. Unconscious patients need more than conscience ones.

What amazes me is that they were able to put in and test successfully all
the oxygen pipework and cryogenic tanks or gas cylinders and flow
regulators to allow it to support so many beds with oxygen that quickly.

Major hospitals were losing line oxygen pressure due to extremely high
demand for oxygen - beyond anything the designers had allowed for.

Sure but much easier to allow for everyone on high levels of oxygen.

I think they did have some modest capacity in the recovery section for
people who were ready to transfer back into normal hospital care.

Of course they must have.

It was a tiny fraction though. The majority of the space was set out as
large wards for watching over immobile ventilated sedated patients.

But no reason why that couldnt be changed when it turned
out that there was no need to lots of that type of capacity.

Completely mad to be shipping so many back
to care homes without any testing instead.

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 20:06:35 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

On 17/06/2020 11:06, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 16/06/2020 08:05, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 18:04, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 14:14, Fredxx wrote:

Forecasts by analysts LaingBuisson predict that care home
residents are
on course to account for half of England's coronavirus-related
deaths."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...navirus-tests/

There is simply no excuse as beds were often empty. I thought
would be a perfect use for the 'Nightingale" hospitals. There
could be different areas for each day of isolation without
symptoms. There were many ways to reduce infection amongst the
elderly and a crying shame no effort or resource was put this
way. Furthermore the elderly are often Tory voters so cannot
understand the myopic approach.

The Nightingale hospitals were really only ever intended for
sedated intubated people on ventilators to be watched over by
minimal staff.

But when they never got used like that, it made no sense to
send the elderly in hospitals to care homes and infect those.

They were not really suitable for anything other than holding
patients in bulk and in an unconscious state until either they
recovered or died.

I dont buy that unconscious state line.

Why not?

I cant see why they wouldnt have been even more
useful for those on oxygen if the hospitals had been
badly over loaded.

Because they were only designed to handle unconscious patients.

It was their stated policy from the outset. Patients sent to
Nightingale hospitals would be the overflow from NHS ICU wards and
would be already on a ventilator or needing to be put on one immediately.

But once they realised that far more would be
on oxygen instead of ventilators, that approach
would have worked just as well for them too.

Both techniques require a dedicated oxygen supply and a flow controller.

Better in fact given that those on oxygen would have
required less individual monitoring by skilled professionals.

The CPAP brings with it greater infected aerosol risks that make life
more difficult for the medical and cleaning staff.

Completely mad to be shipping so many back
to care homes without any testing instead.

On that we are agreed, but the correct solution was to designate one
location in each area for all of the Covid suspect patients and equip it
properly to handle them with staff and PPE.

Lobbing infected bodies over the wall was the height of madness.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 17/06/2020 11:06, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 16/06/2020 08:05, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 18:04, Rod Speed wrote:


"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2020 14:14, Fredxx wrote:

Forecasts by analysts LaingBuisson predict that care home
residents are
on course to account for half of England's coronavirus-related
deaths."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...navirus-tests/
There is simply no excuse as beds were often empty. I thought would
be a perfect use for the 'Nightingale" hospitals. There could be
different areas for each day of isolation without symptoms. There
were many ways to reduce infection amongst the elderly and a crying
shame no effort or resource was put this way. Furthermore the
elderly are often Tory voters so cannot understand the myopic
approach.

The Nightingale hospitals were really only ever intended for sedated
intubated people on ventilators to be watched over by minimal staff.

But when they never got used like that, it made no sense to
send the elderly in hospitals to care homes and infect those.

They were not really suitable for anything other than holding patients
in bulk and in an unconscious state until either they recovered or
died.

I dont buy that unconscious state line.

Why not?

I cant see why they wouldnt have been even more
useful for those on oxygen if the hospitals had been
badly over loaded.

Because they were only designed to handle unconscious patients.

No reason why they wouldnt work fine with conscious patients too.

It was their stated policy from the outset. Patients sent to Nightingale
hospitals would be the overflow from NHS ICU wards and would be already
on a ventilator or needing to be put on one immediately.

But once they realised that far more would be
on oxygen instead of ventilators, that approach
would have worked just as well for them too.

Both techniques require a dedicated oxygen supply and a flow controller.

But still work fine with conscious patients.

Better in fact given that those on oxygen would have
required less individual monitoring by skilled professionals.

The CPAP brings with it greater infected aerosol risks that make life more
difficult for the medical and cleaning staff.

But much less monitoring required to check that
the unconscious patient isnt being damaged by the
ventilator and that requires more skilled nurses.

Completely mad to be shipping so many back
to care homes without any testing instead.

On that we are agreed, but the correct solution was to designate one
location in each area for all of the Covid suspect patients and equip it
properly to handle them with staff and PPE.

No reason why that couldnt have been done in the nightingales
one it became obvious that they werent going to be used for
unconscious ventilated patients.

Lobbing infected bodies over the wall

That was done to deliberately infect the enemy.

was the height of madness.

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:24:37 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/