On 18/12/2019 12:42, John wrote:
Andy Burns wrote in news:h5ucubFa5o4U1
@mid.individual.net:

John wrote:

If they concentrated on less models, then they could reduce their
production costs.

They're probably all the same basic machine with different plastics on
the outside and different firmware settings on the inside ...


I still think they are using design reousrces on trivial model changes when
they should be working on sourcing and specifying components that are
thoroughly tested to be up to the job.



Are some of these design changes just a slightly different model number,
with no other differences at all?

On 18/12/2019 12:53, Theo wrote:

It seems this is what comes of excessive value-engineering

These machines are very, very cheap.

When Rolls Razor started the washing machine wars in the 1960s, they
were selling machines at £42. The equivalent machines in the shops were
over £80.

For comparison, petrol was around 5p a litre at that time.

On 17/12/2019 14:46, Graham. wrote:

Help me out here. I thought I knew how a door interlock works and I
suppose the PTC thermistor could overheat and cause a fire, but I
can't see how the load of the main heating element influences it.
Does anyone know what the actual mode of faliure is?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50811686
https://youtu.be/O9zfue1NzGU

my interlock melted about a year ago and replaced it myself....something
else went a couple of months ago and the hotpoint is now out the back
door......bring back hot fill .....

On 17/12/2019 20:49, wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 December 2019 19:27:40 UTC, ARW wrote:
Adblock has detected 158 ads on that link.

It is the Daily Mail ...

Owain


'exploding' washing machine. Really ?. Were the clothes
saturated with deoderant or hairspray ?.

On 18/12/2019 11:50, GB wrote:
On 17/12/2019 20:59, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:32:56 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, 17 December 2019 16:07:21 UTC, GBÂ* wrote:
It's unlikely to cause a serious fire, and
indeed, according to the BBC, there have been none.

"Some, about 20%, of the Hotpoint and Indesit washing machines sold
since 2014 are affected by the fault. Up to 519,000 washing machines
sold in the UK are involved. Seventy-nine fires are thought to have
been caused by the fault which develops over time, according to
Whirlpool, which owns the brands."

I don't know if it was one of these brands, but I know someone who
had a washing machine fire. If they had been out of the house, or
hadn't dragged the machine out of the kitchen door, they'd probably
have lost the house.

Ditto with a mate of mine back in the late 1980's, an AEG washing
machine, costing an arm and a leg and just a few months old decided to
burst into flames just as they were going to bed.Â* Fortunately it was
unpluggable and a few buckets of water eventually put the flames out.
Five minutes later and the whole kitchen would have been alight.


Which bits of the machine were burning so fiercely?


The plastic bits :-)

The original part supplier might have been replaced by a cheaper
version made in China, where quality control might not be
anywhere near as good as the original supplier.


On 18/12/2019 08:19, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
The whole thing sounds like a fiasco of major proportions to me. I can only
guess that something in the construction of the door latch was not tested
for fireproofness if that is a word, as, like you say the way the system
works has been the same for many years. That is unless they re invented the
well worse again in 2014. I can see some kind of interlock based on a
circuit and a relay that fails connected, and hence overheats the relay, but
surely relays that are designed for such uses must be tested to comply?
Brian

Theo wrote in
:

Andy Burns wrote:
Theo wrote:

I can't quite work out how they're exploding.

I presume those photos are nothing to do with failing door
interlocks, but failed bearings (or not detecting unbalanced loads)
causing the drum to try to escape mid-spin?

You might be right:

quote
Miss Flint, from Telford, Shropshire, who had her machine for
two-and-a-half years without any previous problems, added: 'The
washing machine was on spin and it just suddenly blew up.

'I just heard shattering glass and, when I looked, there was steam
coming out of it.'
/quote

q
'At some point the washing machine drum came apart and sent its load
up through the top of the washing machine and destroyed a good chunk
of the kitchen.
/q

I had assumed steam buildup was a cause, but maybe just a side effect?

It seems this is what comes of excessive value-engineering, and then
so commoditising the machines that there's no support network to
modify them after-sales. Their standard business model just assumes
you'll buy another one when it breaks, which doesn't work so well for
recalls...

Theo


Can't believe Steam Buildup due to the powder dispen
ser being relatively open

Theo wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I presume those photos are nothing to do with failing door interlocks,
but failed bearings (or not detecting unbalanced loads) causing the drum
to try to escape mid-spin?

You might be right:

It seems this is what comes of excessive value-engineering

before going to fast spin mine seems to have a little go, so that if the
drum is unbalanced it stops does a few reverse tumbles and tries again,
I always assumed if it found the same again and again, it would stop
rather than say "**** it let's try full blast"

On Tuesday, 17 December 2019 18:33:01 UTC, wrote:
I don't know if it was one of these brands, but I know someone who had
a washing machine fire.

Just checked and both friend and my mother's washing machines caught fire - they were both Zanussi, in mother's case nearly new and little used.

Not representative, but that's 100% of people I know with Zanussis...

Owain

On 17/12/2019 14:46, Graham. wrote:
Help me out here. I thought I knew how a door interlock works and I
suppose the PTC thermistor could overheat and cause a fire, but I
can't see how the load of the main heating element influences it.
Does anyone know what the actual mode of faliure is?

Sounds like all the power, including the heater, goes through the door
interlock switch contacts and they probably can't cope with the current.

Big Clive gas a good teardown and explanation of a typical Indesit door
interlock at https://youtu.be/PIm7q_U3UEM

On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 01:28:33 -0800, harry wrote:

On Tuesday, 17 December 2019 19:27:40 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 17/12/2019 18:20, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 December 2019 14:46:27 UTC, Graham. wrote:
Help me out here. I thought I knew how a door interlock works and I
suppose the PTC thermistor could overheat and cause a fire, but I
can't see how the load of the main heating element influences it.
Does anyone know what the actual mode of faliure is?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50811686
https://youtu.be/O9zfue1NzGU


Some pix here.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...465/Whirlpool-
recall-519-000-Hotpoint-Indesit-washing-machines.html


Adblock has detected 158 ads on that link.

So? How do you expect free-to-access on-line newspapers to pay for
themselves?

Russia pays for that one. Additional income is just being greedy.

--
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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 11:50:15 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 17/12/2019 20:59, The Other Mike wrote:

Ditto with a mate of mine back in the late 1980's, an AEG washing
machine, costing an arm and a leg and just a few months old decided to
burst into flames just as they were going to bed. Fortunately it was
unpluggable and a few buckets of water eventually put the flames out.
Five minutes later and the whole kitchen would have been alight.


Which bits of the machine were burning so fiercely?

It was near the top, around the sequencer/controller, took out much of
the wiring, scorched the metal cover and damaged the worktop.

Apparently it was fully established flames not just smoke, no fuse
blew and I don't think he had a RCD equipped consumer unit either.

I don't think his wife ever put a washing machine on a cycle
unattended ever again.

On 18/12/2019 13:22, wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 12:28:28 UTC, GB wrote:
Under the CRA15, the retailer has the option of carrying out a repair,
which of course is exactly what Whirlpool is offering to do.

Except that Whirlpool are not allowing others to repair affected appliances, and a consumer would have a good argument that a repair contravening the manufacturer's instructions was not a satisfactory remedy in law.

Owain


With the tumble dryers, which I suspect are a bigger risk, nobody seems
to have broken ranks. People are quietly waiting for Whirlpool to get
round to their case.

On 18/12/2019 17:44, The Other Mike wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 11:50:15 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 17/12/2019 20:59, The Other Mike wrote:

Ditto with a mate of mine back in the late 1980's, an AEG washing
machine, costing an arm and a leg and just a few months old decided to
burst into flames just as they were going to bed. Fortunately it was
unpluggable and a few buckets of water eventually put the flames out.
Five minutes later and the whole kitchen would have been alight.


Which bits of the machine were burning so fiercely?

It was near the top, around the sequencer/controller, took out much of
the wiring, scorched the metal cover and damaged the worktop.

Apparently it was fully established flames not just smoke, no fuse
blew and I don't think he had a RCD equipped consumer unit either.

I don't think his wife ever put a washing machine on a cycle
unattended ever again.


In those days, machines would have a metal lid. Nowadays, it might be
worse, as some machines have more combustible lids.

On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 18:24:39 UTC, GB wrote:

In those days, machines would have a metal lid. Nowadays, it might be
worse, as some machines have more combustible lids.

A couple of years ago I had a small fire in a constantly-running
dehumidifier in a damp garage. The compressor bearings had seized up
so the over-temperature switch cycled continuously. Eventually the switch
overheated and there were signs of a flame impinging on the plastic cover
over the compressor terminals. The cover was clearly made from fire-
resistant thermoplastic (probably ABS) as although there were drips of melted
plastic on the metal tray at the base of the unit the fire did not spread.
Power was disconnected when the 32A RCBO tripped.
Overall, I was quite impressed as the various fire suppression measures
did actually work as intended. The plastic cover self-extinguished once
power had been disconnected and the drips of molten plastic landed on
metal and didn't ignite anything else.

John

On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 20:08:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
The Metro is a free printed paper. Their journos know what they are
doing for a cheap pay packet. It's a copy and paste of the Mail.


The Metro is mainly intended for the commuter demographic.

There must be a business opportunity for a free version of The Sun. They could leave it in Jobcentres, betting shops and Wetherspoons.

Bigger print, smaller words, and more tits, obviously.

Owain

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 11:50:15 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 17/12/2019 20:59, The Other Mike wrote:

Ditto with a mate of mine back in the late 1980's, an AEG washing
machine, costing an arm and a leg and just a few months old decided to
burst into flames just as they were going to bed. Fortunately it was
unpluggable and a few buckets of water eventually put the flames out.
Five minutes later and the whole kitchen would have been alight.


Which bits of the machine were burning so fiercely?

It was near the top, around the sequencer/controller, took out much of
the wiring, scorched the metal cover and damaged the worktop.

Apparently it was fully established flames not just smoke, no fuse
blew and I don't think he had a RCD equipped consumer unit either.

I don't think his wife ever put a washing machine on a cycle
unattended ever again.

That's mad. A decent smoke alarm there is all you need.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:58:37 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

That's mad.

What could be madder that an 85-year-old trolling senile pest like you who
managed to get his own website dedicated to his trolling!!!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

Theo wrote:

I can't quite work out how they're exploding.

No mention of what make this tumble dryer is/was

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/kessingland-house-fire-tumble-dryer-explosion-1-6432441

John wrote:
Can't believe Steam Buildup due to the powder dispen
ser being relatively open

Yes, that's true. Maybe the steam was just a hot wash.
Does sound like a different problem to the interlocks.

Theo

On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 11:28:06 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 09:26:18 UTC, harry wrote:

At one time, all plastics in electrical equipment were self extinguishing (bakelite)
Now they are not due to the EUSSR CE standards.
Now we have lots of electrical stuff made with highly flammable thermo-plastics.

Which standards are you referring to?
My experience of designing to recent EU standards (which are mostly
now harmonised with USA and other national standards) is that there
is a great deal of attention to the prevention of fire and its containment
should it occur.
For example, anything close to a potential ignition source generally
needs to meet flammability standard ULV0 or equivalent. There is a lot
of detail about sizes of apertures in enclosures which might allow flames
or molten burning plastics to escape.
Reputable test labs will, if they consider it necessary, follow the paper
trail for the materials used. In one instance a PCB insulating spacer
was made in China and had no markings because it was just a bare board.
Intertek required us to provide documentation from the Chinese board
manufacturer about the source and certification of the resin used to
manufacture the PCB before accepting its flammability rating.

John

Obviously the standards are totally inadequate (Grenfell)
Appliances in the past had all metal cabinets. Insulation was mineral wool.
At one time even fridge interiors were metal.
The only thing that could burn in a tumble dryer was a bit of fluff if it got on the heating element. Every thing else was metal.
All you got was a bad smell.

On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 12:00:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 18/12/2019 09:26, harry wrote:

Now they are not due to the EUSSR CE standards.

Love it! Was it you also blaming the EU for Grenfell Tower, even though
other EU countries have avoided cladding tower blocks with fire lighters?

The Grenfell fire was tarted by a faulty refrigerator ****-fer-brains.

Bakelite has not been in use since the 1950s.

Bollix. It's still in use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakeli...tions_and_uses

And was used in electrical sockets & switches in the 1980s to my personal knowledge.
It is not used today for cost reasons. The EUSSR rules permit it.

On Thursday, 19 December 2019 18:55:10 UTC, harry wrote:
Obviously the standards are totally inadequate (Grenfell)

Argos have recently recalled a load of mattress toppers for failing to meet fire safety requirements.

I know we all like cheap tat from China and don't ask too many questions, but really, in the 21st century, why can't we do better?

Owain

On Thursday, 19 December 2019 19:07:29 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 12:00:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 18/12/2019 09:26, harry wrote:

Now they are not due to the EUSSR CE standards.

Love it! Was it you also blaming the EU for Grenfell Tower, even though
other EU countries have avoided cladding tower blocks with fire lighters?

The Grenfell fire was tarted by a faulty refrigerator ****-fer-brains.

Bakelite has not been in use since the 1950s.

Bollix. It's still in use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakeli...tions_and_uses

And was used in electrical sockets & switches in the 1980s to my personal knowledge.
It is not used today for cost reasons. The EUSSR rules permit it.

I mentioned a dehumidifier that caught fire in my garage. The
over-temperature switch that caught fire was made of bakelite,
so yes it is still in use but no it doesn't prevent fires.

I have never come across a domestic 'fridge with a metal interior.
Even in the early 1960s they were made of polystyrene with glass
fibre insulation which tended to become saturated with water and
not insulate very well.

Most of the EU safety rules relating to appliances are the same
or very similar to those applied in the USA and much of
the rest of the world. (At least in the area I am most familiar
with which is IT and test equipment.)

I do agree that standards relating to building cladding appear to
be inadequate. They don't appear to have taken scale effects into
account - nor that some metals like aluminium burn very well in the
right conditions which are probably not present in small-scale
test rigs.

John

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 19 December 2019 19:07:29 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 12:00:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 18/12/2019 09:26, harry wrote:

Now they are not due to the EUSSR CE standards.

Love it! Was it you also blaming the EU for Grenfell Tower, even though
other EU countries have avoided cladding tower blocks with fire
lighters?

The Grenfell fire was tarted by a faulty refrigerator ****-fer-brains.

Bakelite has not been in use since the 1950s.

Bollix. It's still in use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakeli...tions_and_uses

And was used in electrical sockets & switches in the 1980s to my
personal knowledge.
It is not used today for cost reasons. The EUSSR rules permit it.

I mentioned a dehumidifier that caught fire in my garage. The
over-temperature switch that caught fire was made of bakelite,
so yes it is still in use but no it doesn't prevent fires.

I have never come across a domestic 'fridge with a metal interior.

I still have one that does, inherited from my parents, no longer used.

Even in the early 1960s

This one would have been 1950s

they were made of polystyrene

This one isnt.

with glass fibre insulation

Yes.

which tended to become saturated with water

This one never did.

and not insulate very well.

True.

Most of the EU safety rules relating to appliances are
the same or very similar to those applied in the USA
and much of the rest of the world. (At least in the area
I am most familiar with which is IT and test equipment.)

I do agree that standards relating to building cladding
appear to be inadequate. They don't appear to have
taken scale effects into account - nor that some metals
like aluminium burn very well in the right conditions
which are probably not present in small-scale test rigs.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 19:52:02 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


I still have one that does, inherited from my parents, no longer used.

Your parents must be glad to have gotten rid of you in the end, you
obnoxious cretin!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

In article , briang1
@blueyonder.co.uk says...

The most flammable bit of those tvs was the glue holding
the veneer to the chipboard cabinets.

Chipboard, Brian?

Used to be plywood in my day - and that was heavy enough!


--

Terry

I don't know who made this tumble dryer but it certainly left
its mark!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-50854999

--

Terry

On Friday, 20 December 2019 08:33:43 UTC, wrote:
On Thursday, 19 December 2019 19:07:29 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 12:00:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 18/12/2019 09:26, harry wrote:

Now they are not due to the EUSSR CE standards.

Love it! Was it you also blaming the EU for Grenfell Tower, even though
other EU countries have avoided cladding tower blocks with fire lighters?

The Grenfell fire was tarted by a faulty refrigerator ****-fer-brains.

Bakelite has not been in use since the 1950s.

Bollix. It's still in use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakeli...tions_and_uses

And was used in electrical sockets & switches in the 1980s to my personal knowledge.
It is not used today for cost reasons. The EUSSR rules permit it.

I mentioned a dehumidifier that caught fire in my garage. The
over-temperature switch that caught fire was made of bakelite,
so yes it is still in use but no it doesn't prevent fires.



No but it's self extinguishing.

Terry Casey wrote:

I don't know who made this tumble dryer but it certainly left
its mark!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-50854999

I was a whirlpool and it did catch fire injuring the owner, then it
ignited aerosols stored next to it, and they blew the wall out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/21/whirlpool-tumble-dryer-due-recall-caused-building-explode

On 21/12/2019 12:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Terry Casey wrote:

I don't know who made this tumble dryer but it certainly left
its mark!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-50854999

I was a whirlpool and it did catch fire injuring the owner, then it
ignited aerosols stored next to it, and they blew the wall out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/21/whirlpool-tumble-dryer-due-recall-caused-building-explode

I don't believe a few aerosol cans can blow a wall out.

--
Max Demian

On 21/12/2019 14:17, Max Demian wrote:

I don't believe a few aerosol cans can blow a wall out.


Part of one can of aerosol wrecked a car.

Max Demian wrote:

I don't believe a few aerosol cans can blow a wall out.

Google disagrees

https://google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=aerosol+explosion+house+-tumble

On Saturday, 21 December 2019 14:17:12 UTC, Max Demian wrote:
On 21/12/2019 12:22, Andy Burns wrote:
Terry Casey wrote:

I don't know who made this tumble dryer but it certainly left
its mark!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-50854999

I was a whirlpool and it did catch fire injuring the owner, then it
ignited aerosols stored next to it, and they blew the wall out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/21/whirlpool-tumble-dryer-due-recall-caused-building-explode

I don't believe a few aerosol cans can blow a wall out.


Easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awoaYb1mMtI
Cellulose paint is best.

On 21/12/2019 15:01, Andy Burns wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

I don't believe a few aerosol cans can blow a wall out.

Google disagrees

https://google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=aerosol+explosion+house+-tumble

Maybe we should go back to CFCs.

--
Max Demian

GB wrote
Max Demian wrote

I don't believe a few aerosol cans can blow a wall out.

Part of one can of aerosol wrecked a car.

But its much easier to blow out a windscreen
than to demolish a wall and the detail of how
the contents of the can get into the much
smaller volume of the car is very different too.

Plenty of video of aerosol cans put on a fire and
you dont see a lot of damage of the surrounds.

Tho I spose its possible that one going off could
produce enough shrapnel to puncture another,
release the propellant into the room and then
that ignites and blows the wall out.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Max Demian wrote:

I don't believe a few aerosol cans can blow a wall out.

Google disagrees

https://google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=aerosol+explosion+house+-tumble

Its far from clear how many of those were caused
by a fire causing one of the cans to explode and
THAT causing the explosion that blows the wall
out rather than the much more usual situation
like with the car when some fool sprays a lot from
the can and then that is ignited by something else.

On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 04:51:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Part of one can of aerosol wrecked a car.

But its much easier to

You disagree, AGAIN, you ridiculous auto-contradicting senile pest? LOL

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: .com"

On 19/12/2019 02:58, Rod Speed wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 11:50:15 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 17/12/2019 20:59, The Other Mike wrote:

Ditto with a mate of mine back in the late 1980's, an AEG washing
machine, costing an arm and a leg and just a few months old decided to
burst into flames just as they were going to bed.Â* Fortunately it was
unpluggable and a few buckets of water eventually put the flames out.
Five minutes later and the whole kitchen would have been alight.


Which bits of the machine were burning so fiercely?

It was near the top, around the sequencer/controller, took out much of
the wiring, scorched the metal cover and damaged the worktop.

Apparently it was fully established flames not just smoke, no fuse
blew and I don't think he had a RCD equipped consumer unit either.

I don't think his wife ever put a washing machine on a cycle
unattended ever again.

That's mad. A decent smoke alarm there is all you need.

Not much help if you go out

On 19/12/2019 18:55, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 11:28:06 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 December 2019 09:26:18 UTC, harry wrote:

At one time, all plastics in electrical equipment were self extinguishing (bakelite)
Now they are not due to the EUSSR CE standards.
Now we have lots of electrical stuff made with highly flammable thermo-plastics.

Which standards are you referring to?
My experience of designing to recent EU standards (which are mostly
now harmonised with USA and other national standards) is that there
is a great deal of attention to the prevention of fire and its containment
should it occur.
For example, anything close to a potential ignition source generally
needs to meet flammability standard ULV0 or equivalent. There is a lot
of detail about sizes of apertures in enclosures which might allow flames
or molten burning plastics to escape.
Reputable test labs will, if they consider it necessary, follow the paper
trail for the materials used. In one instance a PCB insulating spacer
was made in China and had no markings because it was just a bare board.
Intertek required us to provide documentation from the Chinese board
manufacturer about the source and certification of the resin used to
manufacture the PCB before accepting its flammability rating.

John

Obviously the standards are totally inadequate (Grenfell)


But Grenfell isn't a "standards" failure