"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 09/11/2019 12:07, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 09/11/2019 11:07, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/11/2019 09:57, Andy Bennet wrote:

I take EVERYTHING from the back of the shelf, all the freshest stuff is
there.

Even if you're going to consume it straight away? Rather selfish?

Not really, less stuff gets thrown away thus saving the planet.

More stuff gets thrown away by the shop if everyone does it.

But everyone doesnt.

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:31:41 UTC, Graeme wrote:
I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins. How did we survive before
the dates were printed?

We checked whether they were bulgy or putrifying, but occasionally we got
it wrong.

I have a Big Book of Food Safety showing bulgy tins, mouldy yoghurts,
decomposing chickens etc, from about the 1970s. Such things were quite
common then. Food manufacturing has improved a lot and now it's quite rare
to find actually defective food. Modern food might not have much taste or
nutrition but it's less likely to kill you.

That last is very arguable with listeria and salmonela etc.

We just had a few killed by infected fresh melons.

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:30:39 UTC, Graeme wrote:
You *buy* Christmas cakes? Shame on you - made ours earlier this week,
and yes, it is divine with cheese :-)

We gave up making christmas cakes as a family when there were so many
power cuts, and it's an expensive waste losing a christmas cake half
cooked in the oven. Also the shop ones have got better quality and value
for money since then.

Ours got noticeably worse. I used to buy these, but dont anymore.
https://lionsclubs.org.au/activities/products/cakes/

I used to make my own but havent done for about a decade now.

Might knock out a batch of mince pies though.

Those have changed for the better here. They used to go inedible
quite quickly but dont anymore with some of the branks.

I currently prefer the Aldi ones.

I still have half a doz jars of mincemeat to use
up (20p each I think, from about March).

On 09/11/2019 17:11, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjar wrote:
Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I might
buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)


--
Colin Bignell

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 06:17:45 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


We gave up making christmas cakes as a family when there were so many
power cuts, and it's an expensive waste losing a christmas cake half
cooked in the oven. Also the shop ones have got better quality and value
for money since then.

Ours got noticeably worse. I used to buy these, but don¢t anymore.
https://lionsclubs.org.au/activities/products/cakes/

I used to make my own but havent done for about a decade now.

Yeah, too sad when you always have to eat them all by yourself, you
cantankerous forsaken senile pest!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 06:11:04 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Not really, less stuff gets thrown away thus saving the planet.

More stuff gets thrown away by the shop if everyone does it.

But everyone doesn¢t.

He didn't say that everyone does it, auto-contradicting senile idiot!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 06:13:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


That last is very arguable

What is NOT arguable for you, you clinically insane, auto-contradicting,
senile idiot! tsk

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On Saturday, 9 November 2019 19:39:17 UTC, nightjar wrote:
I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I might
buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

The circumstances were they were about 35p each (normally £1.50).

Haggis marinara
Haggis risotto
Haggis pizza


Owain

On 09/11/2019 18:23, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/11/2019 12:07, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 09/11/2019 11:07, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/11/2019 09:57, Andy Bennet wrote:

I take EVERYTHING from the back of the shelf, all the freshest stuff
is there.

Even if you're going to consume it straight away? Rather selfish?

Not really, less stuff gets thrown away thus saving the planet.

More stuff gets thrown away by the shop if everyone does it.


Nope. Lower price stickers get put on it as it approaches expiry.
This then helps less fortunate people buy goods they otherwise they
could not afford.
WIN WIN

On 09/11/2019 19:39, nightjar wrote:
On 09/11/2019 17:11, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjarÂ* wrote:
Â* Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago
when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I might
buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

I'm failing to think of anything which would make me buy one tin of haggis.

On Saturday, 9 November 2019 20:12:48 UTC, Richard wrote:
I'm failing to think of anything which would make me buy one tin of haggis.

It's very tasty.

I forgot to mention last week's haggis and red pepper soup :-)

Owain

In article ,
nightjar wrote:
On 09/11/2019 17:11, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjar wrote:
Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I might
buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

the price is right

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 09/11/2019 18:32, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:31:41 UTC, Graeme wrote:
I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins. How did we survive before
the dates were printed?

We checked whether they were bulgy or putrifying, but occasionally we got it wrong.

I have a Big Book of Food Safety showing bulgy tins, mouldy yoghurts, decomposing chickens etc, from about the 1970s. Such things were quite common then. Food manufacturing has improved a lot and now it's quite rare to find actually defective food. Modern food might not have much taste or nutrition but it's less likely to kill you.

Owain



It just has more salt!

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 09/11/2019 20:12, Richard wrote:
On 09/11/2019 19:39, nightjar wrote:
On 09/11/2019 17:11, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjarÂ* wrote:
Â* Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago
when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I
might buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

I'm failing to think of anything which would make me buy one tin of haggis.

Isn't the SNP about to pass legislation banning the hunting of Haggis?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Saturday, 9 November 2019 21:04:51 UTC, alan_m wrote:
Isn't the SNP about to pass legislation banning the hunting of Haggis?


On the contrary; all privately-owned haggis estates are to be brought into public ownership, a minimum haggis pricing policy will be introduced, and every baby haggis will get its own cardboard box to sleep in with a hand-signed photograph of Nicola Sturgeon to **** on.

Owain

On 09/11/2019 19:11, Rod Speed wrote:
"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 09/11/2019 12:07, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 09/11/2019 11:07, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/11/2019 09:57, Andy Bennet wrote:

I take EVERYTHING from the back of the shelf, all the freshest
stuff is there.

Even if you're going to consume it straight away? Rather selfish?

Not really, less stuff gets thrown away thus saving the planet.

More stuff gets thrown away by the shop if everyone does it.

But everyone doesnt.

I assume you don't subscribe to Kant's Categorical Imperative. (No
probs; I don't.)

--
Max Demian

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:32:39 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:31:41 UTC, Graeme wrote:
I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins. How did we survive before
the dates were printed?

We checked whether they were bulgy or putrifying, but occasionally we
got it wrong.

I have a Big Book of Food Safety showing bulgy tins, mouldy yoghurts,
decomposing chickens etc, from about the 1970s. Such things were quite
common then. Food manufacturing has improved a lot and now it's quite
rare to find actually defective food. Modern food might not have much
taste or nutrition but it's less likely to kill you.

I was reading today about someone who was asked what he'd like in a
Secret Santa gift, and he just said "Something cool".

What he got was a can of Coke, and "Put me in the fridge, and I'll be
cool. And - hint - I'm nearly twice as old as you". He used that clue to
try and find which of the older people in the office had given it - no
luck.

He did drink it - not a Coke fan, normally. Thought it tasted odd but he
wasn't an expert. A colleague saw the empty can and went ballistic: "You
DRANK it?"

Turned out he was the Secret Santa, and his hobby was collecting sealed
old cans of stuff. He'd donated one of his prize cans - an unopened 35
year old can of Coke.

The victim survived with no ill effects.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 18:58:52 +0000, Graeme wrote:

In message ,
writes

Might knock out a batch of mince pies though. I still have half a doz
jars of mincemeat to use up (20p each I think, from about March).

Excellent. Still working through a large batch of mincemeat made in
2014. Still fine, in Kilner jars.

Same here. With actual raw muince in.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:31:41 UTC, Graeme wrote:
In message ,
writes
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjar wrote:

Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago
when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins.

1. for mfrs to divest themselves of any legal responsibility if a tin spoils
2. to get people to chuck & buy again

How did we survive before
the dates were printed? I've used countless tins that were well past
the printed date, and never noticed a difference in the quality of the
contents, or spent the next few days 'squatting'.

BB & Use by dates are frequently works of fantasy nowadays. Only some are realistic, primarily meat & prepared salads.

If you get food poisoning from tinned food you won't be squatting, you'll be in hospital trying to survive. Mortality is high.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:31:41 UTC, Graeme wrote:
In message ,
writes
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjar wrote:

Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago
when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins.

1. for mfrs to divest themselves of any legal responsibility if a tin
spoils
2. to get people to chuck & buy again

How did we survive before
the dates were printed? I've used countless tins that were well past
the printed date, and never noticed a difference in the quality of the
contents, or spent the next few days 'squatting'.

BB & Use by dates are frequently works of fantasy nowadays.
Only some are realistic, primarily meat & prepared salads.

Even with meat there is a big difference depending
on what you do with it storage temp wise etc. Some
of our Aldis can be very slack about what they do
with the chicken particularly with what they do
with it between the truck and the shelf.

If you get food poisoning from tinned food you won't be squatting,
you'll be in hospital trying to survive. Mortality is high.

In fact it isnt actually tinned food that kills very many anymore.

In message ,
writes
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:31:41 UTC, Graeme wrote:

I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins.

1. for mfrs to divest themselves of any legal responsibility if a tin spoils
2. to get people to chuck & buy again

Cynical, but true :-)

BB & Use by dates are frequently works of fantasy nowadays. Only some
are realistic, primarily meat & prepared salads.

They are about the only ones I tend to use. Other fresh products such
as milk and cream, cheese etc., are usually fine. Noses and eyes are
useful.

There was once a film or TV show where an old boy always sniffed the
milk, driving his daughter (or DiL?) insane.

If you get food poisoning from tinned food you won't be squatting,
you'll be in hospital trying to survive. Mortality is high.

Indeed but, as Owain said, who would bother to open a bulging tin?

--
Graeme

On 10/11/2019 03:46, Rod Speed wrote:

Even with meat there is a big difference depending
on what you do with it storage temp wise etc. Some
of our Aldis can be very slack about what they do
with the chicken particularly with what they do
with it between the truck and the shelf.

Truck to shelf seems to fairly rapid in my local.

I'd me more worried about some of the large supermarkets. Go in at 2am
(in a 24 hour store) and you will often find that much of the new stock
in the freezers is nearly thawed. A problem with having to wait for the
night stocking staff to turn up to deal with the stuff that has turned
up during the day.

At least with Adli/Lidl they have little back of store storage and
usually within minutes the goods are wheeled into the isles (blocking
some access for customers) and then rapidly put on the shelves/coolers.





--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 09/11/2019 19:44, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 19:39:17 UTC, nightjar wrote:
I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I might
buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

The circumstances were they were about 35p each (normally £1.50).

Ah! I thought the 35p was full price and an indication of how long ago
you bought them. Mind you, I'm still not sure I can think of any
circumstances where I would buy 72 tins of anything.

Haggis marinara
Haggis risotto
Haggis pizza

No deep fried haggis?

--
Colin Bignell

On 09/11/2019 20:12, Richard wrote:
On 09/11/2019 19:39, nightjar wrote:
On 09/11/2019 17:11, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjarÂ* wrote:
Â* Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago
when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I
might buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

I'm failing to think of anything which would make me buy one tin of haggis.

I must admit I would be dubious. I am more used to eating haggis that
has been carried in to the sound of the pipes and cut with all due
ceremony.

--
Colin Bignell

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 10/11/2019 03:46, Rod Speed wrote:

Even with meat there is a big difference depending
on what you do with it storage temp wise etc. Some
of our Aldis can be very slack about what they do
with the chicken particularly with what they do
with it between the truck and the shelf.

Truck to shelf seems to fairly rapid in my local.

I'd me more worried about some of the large supermarkets. Go in at 2am (in
a 24 hour store) and you will often find that much of the new stock in the
freezers is nearly thawed.

Ours mostly arent 24/7 so you cant do that. And the meat isnt frozen.

A problem with having to wait for the night stocking staff to turn up to
deal with the stuff that has turned up during the day.

At least with Adli/Lidl they have little back of store storage

Yeah, out Aldi certainly has that.

and usually within minutes the goods are wheeled into the isles (blocking
some access for customers) and then rapidly put on the shelves/coolers.

But apparently some stuff like the fresh chicken can sit on trolleys for too
long in the area that the customers dont go, outside the fridges in
there before they are moved into the store proper and onto the shelves.

Not all Aldis, just a couple of them, badly managed presumably.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 14:46:44 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


BB & Use by dates are frequently works of fantasy nowadays.
Only some are realistic, primarily meat & prepared salads.

Even with meat there is a big difference depending
on what you do with it storage temp wise etc.

YOU have for long been PAST your used by date, senile trolling asshole!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 09/11/2019 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Let the supermarkets do that before I've paid their profits.
You already have paid. Everything is priced to pay for the overall
waste, theft and running costs.

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:39:41 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

But apparently some stuff like the fresh chicken can sit on trolleys for too
long in the area that the customers don¢t go, outside the fridges in
there before they are moved into the store proper and onto the shelves.

Not all Aldis, just a couple of them, badly managed presumably.

Thanks for another so very interesting story from your senile world, senile
Rodent! BG

--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/11/2019 08:56, Brian Reay wrote:
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
And I get the same issue with Ginger nuts, where they seem intact until you
open the packet, then they turn to fragments.
Brian


Cheese on ginger nuts, that is different ;-)

Cheese on Bourbons is nice once in a while.

Steve


Ill take your word for it. I like those Hovis biscuits with cheese.

In article ,
says...

Fruit cake with cheese is a standard Yorkshire 'thing'.

Here in Lincolnshire it is Plum bread.

(It's nice without cheese asa well!)

--

Terry

In article 93bcf432-a9d5-473b-a0a0-
,
says...


I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago when they were about 35p each :-)


TINNED Haggis???


--

Terry

wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 08:56:36 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
Cheese on ginger nuts, that is different ;-)

Might be quite nice, though.

Looking forward to christmas cake with cheese in January.

(Why in January - because they'll be half the price of buying them in December).

Owain



Fruit cake and cheese used to be a €˜Northern thing. Ive not seen it since
living in the south.

Richard wrote:
On 09/11/2019 19:39, nightjar wrote:
On 09/11/2019 17:11, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:01:53 UTC, nightjarÂ* wrote:
Â* Tins may well end up well past their best before date
just sitting in my cupboard.

I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago
when they were about 35p each :-)

I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I might
buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

I'm failing to think of anything which would make me buy one tin of haggis.


I like haggis but tinned haggis seems unnatural.

That reminds me, Im off to a St Andrews dinner in a few weeks and Haggis
is on the menu.

wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 19:39:17 UTC, nightjar wrote:
I'm trying, and failing, to think of any circumstances in which I might
buy 72 tins of haggis. :-)

The circumstances were they were about 35p each (normally £1.50).

Haggis marinara
Haggis risotto
Haggis pizza


Owain



On a trip to Scotland earlier this year we saw Haggis with Scallops. I was
going to try it but theyd run out of Scallops.

In article ,
says...

I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins. How did we
survive before the dates were printed?

I'm not sure about the horrible blended stuff but honey from a
local beekeeper has preservative qualities - but he still has
to put a notional BBE date on the label. Stupid.

--

Terry

Terry Casey wrote:
In article 93bcf432-a9d5-473b-a0a0-
,
says...


I'm working my way through 72 tins of haggis I bought a few years ago
when they were about 35p each :-)


TINNED Haggis???



It is probably farmed.

Wild haggis is the best.

;-)

On 10/11/2019 11:35, Brian Reay wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 08:56:36 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
Cheese on ginger nuts, that is different ;-)

Might be quite nice, though.

Looking forward to christmas cake with cheese in January.

(Why in January - because they'll be half the price of buying them in December).

Owain



Fruit cake and cheese used to be a €˜Northern thing. Ive not seen it since
living in the south.

I first met it in the old Rectory in a Yorkshire village in 1970 but
have had it many, many times since in the South. It's one of my
favourite bits of DIY: take plate; add Christmas cake; add cheese; rinse
and repeat. (Wensleydale was the traditional Yorkshire cheese but I also
like Lancashire or a crumbly cheddar. And to rinse with whatever you
fancy: eg tawny port, Muscat.)



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sunday, 10 November 2019 11:51:01 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
TINNED Haggis???
It is probably farmed.
Wild haggis is the best.

Yes, I think the way they force the baby haggi into little tubes so they grow cylindrically to fit into the tins is a bit cruel.

Like those square pigs they slice up for sandwich ham.

Owain

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:32:39 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

On Saturday, 9 November 2019 17:31:41 UTC, Graeme wrote:
I'm not sure why dates are printed on tins. How did we survive before
the dates were printed?



I was reading today about someone who was asked what he'd like in a
Secret Santa gift, and he just said "Something cool".

What he got was a can of Coke, and "Put me in the fridge, and I'll be
cool. And - hint - I'm nearly twice as old as you". He used that clue to
try and find which of the older people in the office had given it - no
luck.

He did drink it - not a Coke fan, normally. Thought it tasted odd but he
wasn't an expert. A colleague saw the empty can and went ballistic: "You
DRANK it?"

Turned out he was the Secret Santa, and his hobby was collecting sealed
old cans of stuff. He'd donated one of his prize cans - an unopened 35
year old can of Coke.

The victim survived with no ill effects.




Reminds me that when I was 19 some 40 plus years ago I got a temporary job
in a brewery and one day they demolished an old disused wooden loading
stage. It seems that over the 90 odd years it existed that when a plank was
damaged it was just replaced but no one bothered to clean out the area
underneath and whatever bottles had gone down through a hole in a damaged
plank was just left there . I retrieved a few of the full bottles whose
labels were in good condition and going by them and the memories of the
older staff some went back to the late thirties though most were from the
early fifties. I took them home and dusted them off and displayed them on a
shelf, moving forward to my 21 st birthday party there became a period
where my memory failed but on waking up the next day the ancient beer
collection had been raided with the now empty bottles lying amongst the
general debris. Most were not quite empty ,there were various snot like
growths still adhering to inside of the bottles.
The chief suspect was not at the pub that evening or the following two
which was very unusual for him, when he did finally appear he mentioned his
absence was down to the biggest bout of having the ****s he had ever in his
life . €œThought I had ****ing Dysentery €œWe asked him if he remembered
drinking the bottles on a shelf rather than the main supply table and on
thinking about he he recollected he may have done as they were closer than
the kitchen .
Anticipating he was going to turn up sometime I had taken the bottle with
the worst snot like growths along,
€œthis probably why you got the ****s €œ. Upon seeing the growths and still
feeling a little delicate he headed for the bog where he threw up.

GH

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 10/11/2019 11:35, Brian Reay wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, 9 November 2019 08:56:36 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
Cheese on ginger nuts, that is different ;-)

Might be quite nice, though.

Looking forward to christmas cake with cheese in January.

(Why in January - because they'll be half the price of buying them in
December).

Owain



Fruit cake and cheese used to be a €˜Northern thing. Ive not seen it
since
living in the south.

I first met it in the old Rectory in a Yorkshire village in 1970 but have
had it many, many times since in the South. It's one of my favourite bits
of DIY: take plate; add Christmas cake; add cheese; rinse

Nar that makes the cake too soggy.

and repeat. (Wensleydale was the traditional Yorkshire cheese but I also
like Lancashire or a crumbly cheddar. And to rinse with whatever you
fancy: eg tawny port, Muscat.)