Failed Honeywell CH valve motor replaced on 2 Oct. That motor failed about
14 days later and was replaced today, 23 Oct. I'm assuming that the first
replacement really was a brand-new motor, and not one that had already
failed from another customer and been accidently fitted in mistake for a
brand new one.

The valve itself was easy to turn, so it hadn't jammed and caused the motor
to draw more current because it couldn't turn.

On 23/10/2019 14:52, NY wrote:
Failed Honeywell CH valve motor replaced on 2 Oct. That motor failed
about 14 days later and was replaced today, 23 Oct. I'm assuming that
the first replacement really was a brand-new motor, and not one that had
already failed from another customer and been accidently fitted in
mistake for a brand new one.

The valve itself was easy to turn, so it hadn't jammed and caused the
motor to draw more current because it couldn't turn.

They are stall motors on most valves so will stall when in operation.

They are actually small synchronous mains motors and cost next to nothing.

Y plan valves have switches to turn them off when in the middle I think,
I have never actually bothered with those things.

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 23/10/2019 14:52, NY wrote:
Failed Honeywell CH valve motor replaced on 2 Oct. That motor failed
about 14 days later and was replaced today, 23 Oct. I'm assuming that
the first replacement really was a brand-new motor, and not one that had
already failed from another customer and been accidently fitted in
mistake for a brand new one.

The valve itself was easy to turn, so it hadn't jammed and caused the
motor to draw more current because it couldn't turn.

They are stall motors on most valves so will stall when in operation.

They are actually small synchronous mains motors and cost next to nothing.

Y plan valves have switches to turn them off when in the middle I think,
I have never actually bothered with those things.

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:50:21 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:52, NY wrote:
Failed Honeywell CH valve motor replaced on 2 Oct. That motor failed
about 14 days later and was replaced today, 23 Oct. I'm assuming that
the first replacement really was a brand-new motor, and not one that had
already failed from another customer and been accidently fitted in
mistake for a brand new one.

The valve itself was easy to turn, so it hadn't jammed and caused the
motor to draw more current because it couldn't turn.

They are stall motors on most valves so will stall when in operation.

Correct.

They are actually small synchronous mains motors and cost next to nothing.

£9.99 delivered (the other day).

Y plan valves have switches to turn them off when in the middle I think,

They don't turn them off, they reduce the power to them via a micro
switch, diode and resistor to provide a 'holding current' and without
magnetising the motor.

I have never actually bothered with those things.

I can tell. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

We had one which suddenly started clanging very loudly; SWMBO got someone
in while I was away - could't find a fault, I replaced the valve and it was
better. This summer I fitted a motor open/motor shut, did a bit of
rewiringb and it's now all quiet.

Cheers, T i m

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 18:15:26 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

Cheers, T i m

There are 2 types, motorised & solenoid. The latter are cheaper & noisy. AFAIK both use spring return.


NT

On 23/10/2019 14:52, NY wrote:
Failed Honeywell CH valve motor replaced on 2 Oct. That motor failed
about 14 days later and was replaced today, 23 Oct. I'm assuming that
the first replacement really was a brand-new motor, and not one that had
already failed from another customer and been accidently fitted in
mistake for a brand new one.

The valve itself was easy to turn, so it hadn't jammed and caused the
motor to draw more current because it couldn't turn.

It wouldn't matter if it was jammed. They are synchronous motors and the
limit switch is only for feedback. In normal operation they run and
drive the valve open and when it reaches the end of travel the motor
simply sits there, energised, but stalled until the power is removed and
the spring pulls it closed.

SteveW

On 23/10/2019 18:48, charles wrote:
In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

We had one which suddenly started clanging very loudly; SWMBO got someone
in while I was away - could't find a fault, I replaced the valve and it was
better. This summer I fitted a motor open/motor shut, did a bit of
rewiringb and it's now all quiet.

Odd. When power is removed, it usually takes a couple of seconds for the
valves to close. The spring pulls on the mechanism, but the mechanism
has to drive the unpowered motor round. The high gear ratio means that
there is a lot of drag. The slow closing means that they are normally
quiet (a slight whirr and a virtually inaudible bump). We have 9 of
them, mostly over 16 years old, and none make a noise.

SteveW

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:21:11 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:52, NY wrote:
Failed Honeywell CH valve motor replaced on 2 Oct. That motor failed
about 14 days later and was replaced today, 23 Oct. I'm assuming that
the first replacement really was a brand-new motor, and not one that had
already failed from another customer and been accidently fitted in
mistake for a brand new one.

The valve itself was easy to turn, so it hadn't jammed and caused the
motor to draw more current because it couldn't turn.

It wouldn't matter if it was jammed. They are synchronous motors and the
limit switch is only for feedback. In normal operation they run and
drive the valve open and when it reaches the end of travel the motor
simply sits there, energised, but stalled until the power is removed and
the spring pulls it closed.


On the Honeywell diverter valves there is a mid position that uses
magic to hold it there. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 23/10/2019 18:48, charles wrote:
In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

We had one which suddenly started clanging very loudly; SWMBO got someone
in while I was away - could't find a fault, I replaced the valve and it was
better. This summer I fitted a motor open/motor shut, did a bit of
rewiringb and it's now all quiet.

Cheers, T i m

I had one that failed, but when I got it off I noticed that there bas
black muck aroound a ceramicc twist on connector thing. I took it off
anbd te wires fell apart.,

I soldered them together, put the ceramic cap on with a blob of glue and
its still working...


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On 23/10/2019 18:48, charles wrote:
In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

We had one which suddenly started clanging very loudly; SWMBO got someone
in while I was away - could't find a fault, I replaced the valve and it was
better. This summer I fitted a motor open/motor shut, did a bit of
rewiringb and it's now all quiet.

Cheers, T i m


Spring return ones don't clang, it may have had a broken gear segment.

On 23/10/2019 21:31, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 18:15:26 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

Cheers, T i m

There are 2 types, motorised & solenoid. The latter are cheaper & noisy. AFAIK both use spring return.


NT


A third type has motorised open and return but the wiring is slightly
more and they cost more.
They are quiet.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 21:31, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 18:15:26 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

Cheers, T i m

There are 2 types, motorised & solenoid. The latter are cheaper & noisy.
AFAIK both use spring return.

A third type has motorised open and return but the wiring is slightly more
and they cost more.
They are quiet.

I think mine is the third type. It has a little slide lever on the housing
which is spring-loaded. If you move it you can feel that it is making a
shaft spin at high speed. There is no indication as to whether it is opening
or closing the valve, and it seems to take about two movements of the lever
to go from fully closed to fully open and then another two to go back to
fully closed. It would have been so much more useful if the motorised
housing had had an indicator that changed between "closed" and "open". I
presume the valve is rotated by the motor in one direction only and can go
from "open" at 0 degrees and 180 degrees, and "closed" at 90 and 270
degrees.

In order to heat the part of my house that was controlled by that valve, I
had to manually move it to the "open" position (as determined by feeling the
downstream pipes when the boiler and pump were running. I then had CH which
was controlled by the thermostat of the other CH zone or by the HW
thermostat - so if *either* was on, the zone with the dead valve got hot.
Rather than keep wriggling through the absurdly small "fairy door" that
gives access to that part of the loft, we used the individual radiator
valves to regulate the heating until the CH engineer could come out to
replace the valve.

One interesting thing. I gather that these valves are turned on by the
programmer and thermostat in series both being turned on. This moves the
valve to the "open" position which also turns on the power to the boiler and
pump via a logical OR arrangement: if any of the Zone 1 CH, Zone 2 CH or HW
valves is open, boiler and pump are turned on; boiler and pump are turned
off only when all three valves are closed. However although the dead valve
was getting power, it was not sending a permanent enable signal to the
boiler and pump even though it was in the "open" position. So not only had
the motor stopped working but also the boiler-enable wire was also not
working. That was a good thing, because it would have mean that the boiler
was running all the time that the programmer was "on", irrespective of the
Zone 2 and HW thermostats. (*)

Thankfully normal service has been resumed and the two zones are each once
again controlled by their own programmer and thermostat.


(*) I noticed that the electricity consumption (which I read every few days
while we are getting used to the vagaries of our new house) was excessive.
I'd thought it was due to the CH motor running all day long (apart from
overnight), until my wife said "damn, I forgot to turn off the underfloor
heating in the kitchen" (I remember her switching it on). I think *that* was
the cause of the excessive electricity usage - everything is back to normal
now we've switched it off. Memo: change the master switch for the underfloor
heating either to one with a light which is on all the time the heating is
switched on (independent of the one that lights only when its thermostat
calls for heat), or else to a programmable timer which only allows the
heating to be turned on for a few hours before resetting to the "off" state.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 23/10/2019 21:31, wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 18:15:26 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

You can buy two port valves with switches to turn them off at end of
travel but they cost more than the stall motor, spring return valves.

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

Cheers, T i m

There are 2 types, motorised & solenoid. The latter are cheaper & noisy. AFAIK both use spring return.


NT


A third type has motorised open and return but the wiring is slightly
more and they cost more.
They are quiet.

yeas - I replaced ac spring return one this summer.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Thursday, 24 October 2019 15:38:26 UTC+1, NY wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 23/10/2019 21:31, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 18:15:26 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:30:30 +0100, charles

Trouble with spring return vales is they are noisy when they close..

I'm not sure if there any that work like a solenoid but the return
spring jobby I have in my hand right now is near silent in operation
(both ways).

Cheers, T i m

There are 2 types, motorised & solenoid. The latter are cheaper & noisy.
AFAIK both use spring return.

A third type has motorised open and return but the wiring is slightly more
and they cost more.
They are quiet.

I think mine is the third type. It has a little slide lever on the housing
which is spring-loaded.

so obviously the 1st type

If you move it you can feel that it is making a
shaft spin at high speed. There is no indication as to whether it is opening
or closing the valve, and it seems to take about two movements of the lever
to go from fully closed to fully open and then another two to go back to
fully closed. It would have been so much more useful if the motorised
housing had had an indicator that changed between "closed" and "open". I
presume the valve is rotated by the motor in one direction only and can go
from "open" at 0 degrees and 180 degrees, and "closed" at 90 and 270
degrees.

they aren't as simple as closed & open. they don't swing anywhere near 180 degrees.


(*) I noticed that the electricity consumption (which I read every few days
while we are getting used to the vagaries of our new house) was excessive..
I'd thought it was due to the CH motor running all day long (apart from
overnight),

40w is about £40 a year if on 24/7 or about £10 per bill