Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided by
(60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by light
sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then with
ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large parts of
the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently available
and I suspect there will be resistance to having different style of lamp
along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W so
replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to be
negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight, for
this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no way
that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to obtain
just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed inside the lamps
that we currently have - there is plenty of space for this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

TIA

Tim

tim... wrote:

is it possible to obtain just the internal microwave sensors

There do seem to be PIR sensors that have been modified to be radar
sensors (bizarrely still using the same chips) see Andreas Spiess on
youtube ...

https://youtu.be/9WiJJgIi3W0

bigclive probably has some videos on them too ...

On 24/04/2019 10:30, tim... wrote:
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided
by (60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by
light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then
with ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large
parts of the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different
style of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of
them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W
so replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to
be negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight,
for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no
way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to
obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed
inside the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of space for
this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

It won't work inside glass. Glass doesn't transmit thermal band IR.
If you can get clear plastic bulkhead covers it might.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Andy Burns wrote:

There do seem to be PIR sensors that have been modified to be radar
sensors (bizarrely still using the same chips) see Andreas Spiess on
youtube ...

https://youtu.be/9WiJJgIi3W0

bigclive probably has some videos on them too ...

https://youtu.be/2xHhLbhbb0k

Andy Burns wrote:

There do seem to be PIR sensors that have been modified to be radar sensors

Probably your easiest retrofit is lamps with radar built-in, though the
end-firing lamps might not work best with a bulkhead style shade, also
I'd worry about the lifetime of cheap chinese LEDs being enclosed and
getting hot.

https://aliexpress.com/item/B22-5W-LED-Radar-Motion-Sensor-Lamp/32957832056.html

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 24/04/2019 10:30, tim... wrote:
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided
by (60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by
light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then
with ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large
parts of the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different
style of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of
them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W
so replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to be
negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight,
for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no
way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to
obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed inside
the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of space for this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

It won't work inside glass. Glass doesn't transmit thermal band IR.#

which is what they are "microwave" and not IR.

If you can get clear plastic bulkhead covers it might.

You are right that all the integrated ones have plastic covers, but I think
that just the norm nowadays, not a requirement of the sensor (BICBW)

tim



--
Regards,
Martin Brown

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Andy Burns wrote:

There do seem to be PIR sensors that have been modified to be radar
sensors

Probably your easiest retrofit is lamps with radar built-in, though the
end-firing lamps might not work best with a bulkhead style shade, also I'd
worry about the lifetime of cheap chinese LEDs being enclosed and getting
hot.

https://aliexpress.com/item/B22-5W-LED-Radar-Motion-Sensor-Lamp/32957832056.html

if they came in a "stick" form bulb you might be right

fitting a glob into the space available is going to be too much of a rework
inside the case, I fear

(Not sure what you mean by "end firing")

tim

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

is it possible to obtain just the internal microwave sensors

There do seem to be PIR sensors that have been modified to be radar
sensors (bizarrely still using the same chips) see Andreas Spiess on
youtube ...

https://youtu.be/9WiJJgIi3W0

whilst "un packaged" devices is the form that is required, I do still need
them to be on a board that can be wired into a 240 volts circuit and not 5
volts (I think)

tim

tim... wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://youtu.be/9WiJJgIi3W0

whilst "un packaged" devices is the form that is required, I do still
need them to be on a board that can be wired into a 240 volts circuit
and not 5 volts (I think)

I can see stand-alone radar occupancy sensors from CPC, but I suppose
you need to be careful with any mains voltage, bare board, DIY retrofit
in a shared space within a block of flats.

tim... wrote:

(Not sure what you mean by "end firing")

Just that "normal" LED lamps expect to be hanging down in a pendant so
the light mostly shines down, where a bulkhead fitting often has a
reflector (which would be at the top when ceiling mounted) to reflect
the light out of the side of the bulb downwards.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

https://youtu.be/9WiJJgIi3W0

whilst "un packaged" devices is the form that is required, I do still
need them to be on a board that can be wired into a 240 volts circuit and
not 5 volts (I think)

I can see stand-alone radar occupancy sensors from CPC, but I suppose you
need to be careful with any mains voltage, bare board, DIY retrofit in a
shared space within a block of flats.

It wouldn't be a DIY refit

we'd get a qualified person in to do it

I just want to know if it's possible, - as I'm sure that 9 out of 10
sparkies I ask will not know and we'll have to look hard for the one who
does.

But I don't want to go looking for that needle in the haystack, if it isn't
in there at all

tim

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

(Not sure what you mean by "end firing")

Just that "normal" LED lamps expect to be hanging down in a pendant so the
light mostly shines down, where a bulkhead fitting often has a reflector
(which would be at the top when ceiling mounted) to reflect the light out
of the side of the bulb downwards.

No

It's screwed in a horizontal position with two fittings for bulbs - one
pointing up and the other down (or one pointing to the right and one to the
left - or something in between)
#

On 24/04/2019 10:30, tim... wrote:
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided
by (60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by
light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then
with ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large
parts of the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different
style of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of
them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W
so replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to
be negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight,
for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no
way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to
obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed
inside the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of space for
this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

TIA

Tim






You could fit a few wireless PIR sensors and a switch to turn the lights on.

You don't say how long the corridor is so I have no idea how many
sensors you would need.

Someone would have to swap the batteries every year or two.

At least an ordinary sparky will know how to do it.

On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 10:32:29 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided by
(60) bulkhead lamps

If the bulkhead lamps have a conduit knockout available you can probably fix a surface mount detector adjacent to it eg

https://www.danlers.co.uk/pir-occupa...tch-ip66-rated

or

https://www.danlers.co.uk/microwave-...90-damw6a-ip67

They also do ones with step-down illuminance for various ballasts and dimming systems eg

https://www.danlers.co.uk/pir-occupa...wn-illuminance

and custom manufacturing, so with potentially 60 units to modify - unless they are wired in groups - it might be worth contacting them.

https://www.danlers.co.uk/oem-produc...pancy-switches

Owain

"tim..." wrote in message
...
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided by
(60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by
light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then with
ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large parts of
the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different style
of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W so
replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to be
negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight,
for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no
way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to
obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed inside
the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of space for this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

The Philips Hue system would work well in that situation because
its all in the bulbs themselves so easy to just use those in the
existing bulkhead lamps. And the movement sensors are
completely independent, not wires to them at all, entirely
internally battery powered and communicate by wifi/zigbee.

BUT they arent cheap and so you are unlikely to save enough
power to pay for them.

Makes more sense to use LED bulkhead lights and leave
them on all the time IMO.

On 24/04/2019 15:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/04/2019 10:30, tim... wrote:
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting
provided by (60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some
controlled by light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then
with ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large
parts of the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different
style of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none
of them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is
10W so replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is
going to be negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken
into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off
overnight, for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's
no way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it
possible to obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them
installed inside the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of
space for this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

TIA

Tim






You could fit a few wireless PIR sensors and a switch to turn the lights
on.

You don't say how long the corridor is so I have no idea how many
sensors you would need.

Someone would have to swap the batteries every year or two.

At least an ordinary sparky will know how to do it.

Not with the info Tim has provided.




--
Adam

On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 15:47:03 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
At least an ordinary sparky will know how to do it.

I wouldn't bet on it.

I tried to show an industrial electrician how to wire up a doorbell once.

Owain

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:01:36 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The Philips Hue

You can shove your Philips Hues up yours, senile Rodent!

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided
by (60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by
light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then
with ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large
parts of the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different
style of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of
them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W
so replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to be
negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight,
for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no
way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to
obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed inside
the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of space for this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

The Philips Hue system would work well in that situation because
its all in the bulbs themselves so easy to just use those in the
existing bulkhead lamps. And the movement sensors are
completely independent, not wires to them at all, entirely
internally battery powered and communicate by wifi/zigbee.

but we don't want to have some system controlling when it goes on and off
we want it to work that out for itself


BUT they arent cheap and so you are unlikely to save enough
power to pay for them.

Makes more sense to use LED bulkhead lights and leave
them on all the time IMO.

we have 14W bulbs in at the moment

the LED equivalent fittings come with 10W bulbs, the saving is trivial and
not enough to pay for the fitting costs.

even putting the smallest LED bulbs I can find in the current fitting (4.5W)
barely covers the difference in price between the CFL at 1.20 and the LEDs
at 6 quid

though as the LEDs come down in price that will change

tim

"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 24/04/2019 15:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/04/2019 10:30, tim... wrote:
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided
by (60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by
light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then
with ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large
parts of the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different
style of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of
them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W
so replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to
be negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight,
for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no
way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to
obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed
inside the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of space for
this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

TIA

Tim






You could fit a few wireless PIR sensors and a switch to turn the lights
on.

You don't say how long the corridor is so I have no idea how many sensors
you would need.

Someone would have to swap the batteries every year or two.

At least an ordinary sparky will know how to do it.

Not with the info Tim has provided.

well if I was spec-ing the job differently, I would provide different info

The corridor is about 60 yards long with a T at each end

The lamps are controlled from 2 switches inside a "locked" cupboard near one
end of the long straight corridor, with one switch controlling one end of
the corridor (plus T) and the other switch the other end/T.

There are three or four lamps that are "always on", controlled by a switch
somewhere else (couldn't find it, didn't look too hard).

So, if we could put wireless PIRs in the strategic places to register
movement in each leg of the T and signal back to a controller that replaces
the switches in the cupboard (leaving the ones controlled from elsewhere
always on), that would work

But I didn't think of that because I didn't know you could get wireless
PIRs. I discounted wired ones in this configuration because we don't want
to have to provide a route for all the cables. Obviously, if building from
scratch that's what you'd have (as my moving-out-of-property has)

tim

On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 10:32:29 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs

Assuming they're G23 base (PL type) then adapters can be had at about £1 each, so that 'ordinary' BC or ES E27 or E14 bulbs can be used, eg

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Starnearby-...dp/B07FM5F5KJ/

This may open up opportunities of much cheaper/lower wattage LED bulbs. ** the ballasts in the fittings would also have to be removed **

Perhaps if you put up a photo of the exterior/interior of the bulkheads, further suggestions may be made.

Owain

"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided
by (60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by
light sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then
with ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large
parts of the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently
available and I suspect there will be resistance to having different
style of lamp along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of
them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W
so replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to
be negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight,
for this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no
way that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to
obtain just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed
inside the lamps that we currently have - there is plenty of space for
this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

The Philips Hue system would work well in that situation because
its all in the bulbs themselves so easy to just use those in the
existing bulkhead lamps. And the movement sensors are
completely independent, not wires to them at all, entirely
internally battery powered and communicate by wifi/zigbee.

but we don't want to have some system controlling when it goes on and off
we want it to work that out for itself

Not clear what you mean by that. The movement sensor
is programmed when you set it up, tell it what lights to
turn on or off when a particular sensor is triggered by
movement etc.

BUT they arent cheap and so you are unlikely to save enough power to pay
for them.

Makes more sense to use LED bulkhead lights and leave them on all the
time IMO.

we have 14W bulbs in at the moment

the LED equivalent fittings come with 10W bulbs, the saving is trivial and
not enough to pay for the fitting costs.

even putting the smallest LED bulbs I can find in the current fitting
(4.5W) barely covers the difference in price between the CFL at 1.20 and
the LEDs at 6 quid

though as the LEDs come down in price that will change

But you are unlikely to save enough electricity to
pay for any form of movement sensor so might
as well just leave them on all the time and put in
lower powered LED bulbs as the current ones die.

Shouldn't be hard to calculate what they would
cost to run 24/7. We can't do that because you
don't say how many there are.

On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 10:32:29 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
Hi,

My new abode is in a block of flats that has interior lighting provided by
(60) bulkhead lamps which are mostly on 24-7 (with some controlled by light
sensors so as only on when it is dark)

I have been tasked with looking to see if we can replace some of then with
ones which detect movement so that they can be off for the large parts of
the day when no-one needs them

It seems that the style of lamps that we have now is not currently available
and I suspect there will be resistance to having different style of lamp
along the corridor so it's replace all of them or none of them

Currently the bulls we use are 2 times 7W CFLs and the smallest LED
replacement that can be styled with "Integrated" movement sensor is 10W so
replacing those lamps which will need to remain on 24-7 is going to be
negative (after the cost of installation ahs been taken into account)

So the end result of changing all of the lamps has to result in a very
significant saving from the ones which are going to go on-off overnight, for
this to be worthwhile.

Adding external PIR sensors into the supply is going to be a mess
(especially as the corridor was only recently redecorated and there's no way
that redecorating afterwards can be justified) so is it possible to obtain
just the internal microwave sensors and have them installed inside the lamps
that we currently have - there is plenty of space for this.

Anybody have an experience of this.

Is the project worth it for the saving to be made?
You need to work this out before you start.
Sounds unlikely to me.
Just fit the smallest LEDs as CFLs fail.

If there are staircases involved, movement sensors may not react soon enough to stop accidents.
(Dependent on siting.)

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 11:33:46 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Shouldn't be hard to calculate what they would
cost to run 24/7. We can't do that because you
don't say how many there are.

"We", it says again, the self-opinionated delusional troll! LOL

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID: