On 09/12/2018 12:58, NY wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
There will be two options, May's Rubbish Deal or Remain.
Proper leave will not be there.

I think a second referendum is needed, now we can see the deal that is
available and the implications of it. It's information which if it had
been available at the time of the referendum may have affected the
result - it was always a leap of faith having to choose an option whose
implications were not known, only guessed, and guessed wrongly.

I voted for Leave, because I passionately believe that the EU is up to
no good and puts the interests of itself before the interests of its
member countries. Merkel's statement a few weeks ago saying the
countries should welcome the EU taking over some of the member
countries' sovereignty is scary as hell and makes me glad I voted the
way I did.

I'm still very much pro Europe - but that's pro-EEC, because the trade
alliance without loss of sovereignty and without freedom of movement of
*all* EU members (we cannot choose which countries we admit people
from), that's what we voted to join in 1974. Maastricht has a lot to
answer for.


My fear if we vote for Remain a second time round is that we will be in
a worse position in the EU than if we'd not voted initially to Leave,
and we'll get even more EU **** than we have already.

One thing is certain: whatever deal we end up with, within or outside
the EU, we will be a lot worse off. The EU should have made it easier
for countries to leave without being financially punished for doing so,
and should have allowed a trade-agreement-only half-way house that does
not require use to pay a "membership fee" or give us "voting rights" but
still treats us as an equal for trading.

In a way it's a shame that the Republic of Ireland didn't vote to leave
the EU as well, because that would have avoided the problems with a land
border between non-EU UK and EU Ireland. It's a good thing that the
Scotland devolution referendum didn't go the other way, otherwise there
would have potentially been problems at the Scotland/England border if
Scotland as a separate nation had voted to stay in the EU.


Give NI to Irish republic, give Gibraltar to Spain, there we have it - a
solution.

On 12/12/2018 19:32, critcher wrote:
On 09/12/2018 12:58, NY wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
There will be two options, May's Rubbish Deal or Remain.
Proper leave will not be there.

I think a second referendum is needed, now we can see the deal that is
available and the implications of it. It's information which if it had
been available at the time of the referendum may have affected the
result - it was always a leap of faith having to choose an option
whose implications were not known, only guessed, and guessed wrongly.

I voted for Leave, because I passionately believe that the EU is up to
no good and puts the interests of itself before the interests of its
member countries. Merkel's statement a few weeks ago saying the
countries should welcome the EU taking over some of the member
countries' sovereignty is scary as hell and makes me glad I voted the
way I did.

I'm still very much pro Europe - but that's pro-EEC, because the trade
alliance without loss of sovereignty and without freedom of movement
of *all* EU members (we cannot choose which countries we admit people
from), that's what we voted to join in 1974. Maastricht has a lot to
answer for.


My fear if we vote for Remain a second time round is that we will be
in a worse position in the EU than if we'd not voted initially to
Leave, and we'll get even more EU **** than we have already.

One thing is certain: whatever deal we end up with, within or outside
the EU, we will be a lot worse off. The EU should have made it easier
for countries to leave without being financially punished for doing
so, and should have allowed a trade-agreement-only half-way house that
does not require use to pay a "membership fee" or give us "voting
rights" but still treats us as an equal for trading.

In a way it's a shame that the Republic of Ireland didn't vote to
leave the EU as well, because that would have avoided the problems
with a land border between non-EU UK and EU Ireland. It's a good thing
that the Scotland devolution referendum didn't go the other way,
otherwise there would have potentially been problems at the
Scotland/England border if Scotland as a separate nation had voted to
stay in the EU.


Give NI to Irish republic, give Gibraltar to Spain, there we have it - a
solution.

I would have no problem with NI becoming part of the Republic or being
independent - as long as that was what the majority of the population
wanted. Up to now though, the majority has been firmly for staying as
part of the UK.

SteveW