Hi All
I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Cheers
J^n

On 10/10/2018 21:47, jkn wrote:
Hi All
I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Cheers
J^n


Heat the area you want to bend to cherry red and plunge into cold water,
it will then bend fairly easily but you'll need to either use a spring
or pack it tightly with sand to prevent the pipe collapsing as it bends.
Alternatively, find a friendly plumber.

On Wednesday, 10 October 2018 21:47:53 UTC+1, jkn wrote:

Hi All
I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Cheers
J^n

pipe benders get you leverage, but still bending 22mm may be too hard if weedy. And IME the amount of force for 22mm is pushing it for a handheld device. So 28mm would not be a hand-held machine's thing.

You can get hydraulic presses or weld a frame together & use a car jack. Then use I forget the name but it allows pipe bends with one. But why not just use elbows etc?


NT

On Wednesday, 10 October 2018 22:16:22 UTC+1, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 10 October 2018 21:47:53 UTC+1, jkn wrote:

Hi All
I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Cheers
J^n

pipe benders get you leverage, but still bending 22mm may be too hard if weedy. And IME the amount of force for 22mm is pushing it for a handheld device. So 28mm would not be a hand-held machine's thing.

You can get hydraulic presses or weld a frame together & use a car jack. Then use I forget the name but it allows pipe bends with one. But why not just use elbows etc?


NT

parallelling smaller pipes may also be an option.


NT

jkn wrote

I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include
bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe
bender somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish
two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However
on checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do
15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job
of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago.
The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems
OTT. Any other solutions?

Buy a viable used one and sell it again after you have used it.

On 10/10/2018 21:47, jkn wrote:
Hi All
I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Buy an elbow, cut the pipe, and solder it in:

https://www.bes.co.uk/solder-ring-elbow-90-28mm-6849



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote:
On 10/10/2018 21:47, jkn wrote:
Hi All
I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include
bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender
somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled
design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out
recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm! What to do? I
am a little weedy and did not make a good job of
bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger
machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other
solutions? Cheers
J^n


Heat the area you want to bend to cherry red and plunge into cold
water, it will then bend fairly easily but you'll need to either use
a spring or pack it tightly with sand to prevent the pipe collapsing
as it bends. Alternatively, find a friendly plumber.

Is the correct answer. It's called annealing.
Best to buy a spring rather than use sand.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 14:16:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

pipe benders get you leverage, but still bending 22mm may be too hard if
weedy. And IME the amount of force for 22mm is pushing it for a handheld
device.

22 mm in a Hilmor bender is OK provided you don't expect to just push
the handles together between your hand/arms. I normally work it
against the floor or some other imovable object.

22 mm and a bending spring is really hardwork and not very accurate.
It might be OK if you have the abilty to anneal the pipe first, that
is heat to cherry red over the entire length of the bend at the same
time then quench it. Yer average hand held blow lamp can't do that.

I doubt that 28 mm is doable with either of the above methods. I
think you'll need a hydrualic bender of some sort.

But why not just use elbows etc?

Properly bent pipe looks nicer? Offers less resistance? Generates
less turbulance in the flow. You can get 28 mm long radius bends but
they don't look as if the radius is that of a Hilmor.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 08:23:04 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job
of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago.
The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems
OTT. Any other solutions?

Buy a viable used one and sell it again after you have used it.

More of your "off the cuff expertise", Mr Know-it-all? BG

--
pamela about Rot Speed:
"His off the cuff expertise demonstrates how little he knows..."
MID:

On 10/10/2018 23:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 14:16:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

pipe benders get you leverage, but still bending 22mm may be too hard if
weedy. And IME the amount of force for 22mm is pushing it for a handheld
device.

22 mm in a Hilmor bender is OK provided you don't expect to just push
the handles together between your hand/arms. I normally work it
against the floor or some other imovable object.

22 mm and a bending spring is really hardwork and not very accurate.
It might be OK if you have the abilty to anneal the pipe first, that
is heat to cherry red over the entire length of the bend at the same
time then quench it. Yer average hand held blow lamp can't do that.

I doubt that 28 mm is doable with either of the above methods. I
think you'll need a hydrualic bender of some sort.

But why not just use elbows etc?

Properly bent pipe looks nicer? Offers less resistance? Generates
less turbulance in the flow. You can get 28 mm long radius bends but
they don't look as if the radius is that of a Hilmor.

My thought were initially like yours, but after looking up the annealing
temperature of copper and finding its 400C, annealing and subsequent
bending looks quite doable.

There seems a general consensus that once annealed it seems possible to
bend using a spring. It might be that the pipe work hardens in the
process and has to be re-annealed.

"Dave Liquorice" Wrote in message:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 14:16:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


But why not just use elbows etc?

Properly bent pipe looks nicer? Offers less resistance? Generates
less turbulance in the flow. You can get 28 mm long radius bends but
they don't look as if the radius is that of a Hilmor.


True, (though a nice bit of soldered pipe looks nice as well) but
given that the OP doesn't have a suitable pipe bender, and it
probably won't make any difference with soldered elbows to
performance then I'd go the elbow route.

In fact I did when I ran in a new pipe from loft cistern to
bathroom for a pumped shower. All is hunky dory.


--
Chris French

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 23:23:01 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

My thought were initially like yours, but after looking up the annealing
temperature of copper and finding its 400C, annealing and subsequent
bending looks quite doable.

Hum, that sent me off to google fully expecting to find
consistent/colabatory information but didn't. Most places say heat to
cherry red and quench but copper doesn't nessarily need the quench
(wikipedia annealing). There was mention of watching the colour of
the metal as you heat it and once past a plum red it has got hot
enough. That's a surface colour of the metal BTW not a heat radiation
glow.

If copper only needs to get above 400 C (plum red?) and doesn't need
to be quenched to anneal then it should be possible to heat a small
section of pipe and slowly move that along the pipe to anneal a
longer section.

There seems a general consensus that once annealed it seems possible to
bend using a spring. It might be that the pipe work hardens in the
process and has to be re-annealed.

Copper is very soft when annealed but does work harden quickly. If
you didn't form the wanted bend in a single smooth movement I think
you'd have to re-anneal for a second or subsequent adjustments.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wednesday, 10 October 2018 21:47:53 UTC+1, jkn wrote:
Hi All
I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Cheers
J^n

You don't need a machine to bend copper pipe, these are a new thing relatively.
Previously a "bending block" was used. A bit of 3" x 3" x 36" wood with a pipe sized hole drilled near one end.
The pipe is stuck in the hole and bent progressively working back and forth..
However, it takes some skill.

You need the right grade of copper to bend it too.

In article ,
jkn wrote:
Hi All I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include
bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender
somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled
design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out
recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending
even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines
are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Do you really need 28mm to a water tank? I have one here, and 22mm seems
adequate.

If you really do, hiring a floor standing pipe bender would seem to me
worth the cost.

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/10/2018 23:24, Chris French wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" Wrote in message:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 14:16:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


But why not just use elbows etc?

Properly bent pipe looks nicer? Offers less resistance? Generates
less turbulance in the flow. You can get 28 mm long radius bends but
they don't look as if the radius is that of a Hilmor.


True, (though a nice bit of soldered pipe looks nice as well) but
given that the OP doesn't have a suitable pipe bender, and it
probably won't make any difference with soldered elbows to
performance then I'd go the elbow route.

In fact I did when I ran in a new pipe from loft cistern to
bathroom for a pumped shower. All is hunky dory.


That's what I would do; or hire a bender if there were a lot of bends.
Even with 15 mm springs are a PITA imho, and as for faffing around with
sand....

It would be different if I was (say) restoring a steam engine.-

On 11/10/2018 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
jkn wrote:
Hi All I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include
bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender
somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish two-handled
design - and had presumed to use that. However on checking these out
recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of bending
even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger machines
are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other solutions?

Do you really need 28mm to a water tank? I have one here, and 22mm seems
adequate.

I tend to agree, but alternatively do it in plastic?


If you really do, hiring a floor standing pipe bender would seem to me
worth the cost.

In article ,
newshound wrote:
On 11/10/2018 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
jkn wrote:
Hi All I have a plumbing job to do at some point which will include
bending some 28mm Cu pipe (to a water tank. I have a pipe bender
somewhere in the loft or garage - one of the large-ish
two-handled design - and had presumed to use that. However on
checking these out recently I see that they tend to only do 15mm
and 22mm!

What to do? I am a little weedy and did not make a good job of
bending even 15mm pipe using a bending spring, years ago. The larger
machines are 50quid or so a day to hire which seems OTT. Any other
solutions?

Do you really need 28mm to a water tank? I have one here, and 22mm
seems adequate.

I tend to agree, but alternatively do it in plastic?

I rather enjoy working with copper pipe and (trying) to make a neat job of
bends. Very satisfying. Rather than the drooping plastic I seem to see
everywhere. But I do have a decent pipe bender.


If you really do, hiring a floor standing pipe bender would seem to me
worth the cost.


--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11/10/2018 11:17, newshound wrote:
On 10/10/2018 23:24, Chris French wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" Wrote in message:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 14:16:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


But why not just use elbows etc?

Properly bent pipe looks nicer? Offers less resistance? Generates
less turbulance in the flow. You can get 28 mm long radius bends but
they don't look as if the radius is that of a Hilmor.


True, (though a nice bit of soldered pipe looks nice as well) but
Â* given that the OP doesn't have a suitable pipe bender, and it
Â* probably won't make any difference with soldered elbows to
Â* performance then I'd go the elbow route.

In fact I did when I ran in a new pipe from loft cistern to
Â* bathroom for a pumped shower. All is hunky dory.


That's what I would do; or hire a bender if there were a lot of bends.
Even with 15 mm springs are a PITA imho, and as for faffing around with
sand....

Bending springs were ok in the days when pipe was supplied fully
annealed. These days with "half hard" pipe one gets as standard they are
next to useless.

It would be different if I was (say) restoring a steam engine.-


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 11/10/2018 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Do you really need 28mm to a water tank? I have one here, and 22mm
seems adequate.

I tend to agree, but alternatively do it in plastic?

I rather enjoy working with copper pipe and (trying) to make a neat job of
bends. Very satisfying. Rather than the drooping plastic I seem to see
everywhere. But I do have a decent pipe bender.


Me too. But not a 28 mm one. And even the 22, using stock (half hard)
pipe takes quite a pull, especially if working away from a big
bench-mounted vice. In the dim and distant past, when I had (other)
possible pipe bending projects I took a look at hydraulic benders like this

https://www.manomano.co.uk/pipe-bend...del_id=8914237

That looks pretty good value, actually. Doesn't seem to say what sizes
it covers, though.

newshound wrote:

https://www.manomano.co.uk/pipe-bend...del_id=8914237
Doesn't seem to say what sizes it covers, though.

Strangely, specified in imperial

https://www.wiltec.de/catalogsearch/result/?q=51840

Thanks for all the replies... I am rather embarrassed ot say that I was fixating
so much on the 'bending' bit that I had totally forgetten about using a 45degree
elbow! That may well work, I will have to check.

It is actually to replace a pipe *from* a water tank (not *to*), and I don't
want to change any other fittings, is the main issue.

I would love to have a try at annealing and bending that way, but I suspect that
soldering an elbow is the way to go. I'll put my muscles away this time...

Cheers
J^n

newshound wrote:

On 11/10/2018 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Do you really need 28mm to a water tank? I have one here, and 22mm
seems adequate.

I tend to agree, but alternatively do it in plastic?

I rather enjoy working with copper pipe and (trying) to make a neat job of
bends. Very satisfying. Rather than the drooping plastic I seem to see
everywhere. But I do have a decent pipe bender.


Me too. But not a 28 mm one. And even the 22, using stock (half hard)
pipe takes quite a pull, especially if working away from a big
bench-mounted vice. In the dim and distant past, when I had (other)
possible pipe bending projects I took a look at hydraulic benders like this

https://www.manomano.co.uk/pipe-bend...c-12t-pipe-ben
der-bending-machine-8914237?model_id=8914237

That looks pretty good value, actually. Doesn't seem to say what sizes
it covers, though.

Its bigger cousin

https://www.manomano.co.uk/pipe-bend...ductId=4492727

does 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1.1/4", 1.1/2", 2", 2.1/2", 3".

Which is a bit of a problem if you want a metric pipe bent. Also
imperial sizes are a bit ambiguous because traditionally they were i.d.
and the o.d. depended a bit on the pipe material and grade.





--

Roger Hayter

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
newshound wrote:

On 11/10/2018 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Do you really need 28mm to a water tank? I have one here, and 22mm
seems adequate.

I tend to agree, but alternatively do it in plastic?

I rather enjoy working with copper pipe and (trying) to make a neat job
of
bends. Very satisfying. Rather than the drooping plastic I seem to see
everywhere. But I do have a decent pipe bender.


Me too. But not a 28 mm one. And even the 22, using stock (half hard)
pipe takes quite a pull, especially if working away from a big
bench-mounted vice. In the dim and distant past, when I had (other)
possible pipe bending projects I took a look at hydraulic benders like
this

https://www.manomano.co.uk/pipe-bend...c-12t-pipe-ben
der-bending-machine-8914237?model_id=8914237

That looks pretty good value, actually. Doesn't seem to say what sizes
it covers, though.

Its bigger cousin

https://www.manomano.co.uk/pipe-bend...ductId=4492727

does 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1.1/4", 1.1/2", 2", 2.1/2", 3".

Which is a bit of a problem if you want a metric pipe bent.

I doubt it given that the metric copper pipe sizes
where chosen to match the older imperial pipe
sizes and with such small steps, it should work fine.

Also imperial sizes are a bit ambiguous because traditionally they
were i.d. and the o.d. depended a bit on the pipe material and grade.

Unlikely to be that critical. Just had one at a
garage sale, used for roll bars on quad bikes etc.