I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

On Friday, 31 August 2018 17:45:55 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

A thermostat would hold a steady temperature, at least +/- 5C or so.
A voltage regulator won't.


NT

Mike Halmarack wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit
skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling
point temperature.
wire a lamp socket in series with it, and try various e.g. 25W, 40W
incandescent lamps to see what temperature you end up with?

On Friday, 31 August 2018 17:45:55 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Papier mache? Use PVA glue. A much better job.

The thing is you need an alternative thermostat, but if its an immersion
heater in a tank, just fiddling with the voltage for the current is
somewhat hit and miss unless you use a thermostat.
Brian

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"Mike Halmarack" wrote in message
...
I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin
and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point
temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache
traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide
glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the
heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've
seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough
to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Mike Halmarack
wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Thanks all for the good and varied advice on this question. I'm sure
the ideal answer is in there somewhere. Not being an electrician, it
wiill take me a while to assess the possibilities suggested. Some of
them sound like fun.
--

Mike

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On 01/09/2018 08:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Mike Halmarack
wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Thanks all for the good and varied advice on this question. I'm sure
the ideal answer is in there somewhere. Not being an electrician, it
wiill take me a while to assess the possibilities suggested. Some of
them sound like fun.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inkbird-Tem...ontroler&psc=1

As long as the boiler is less than 2200W.

On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 19:19:56 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 01/09/2018 08:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Mike Halmarack
wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Thanks all for the good and varied advice on this question. I'm sure
the ideal answer is in there somewhere. Not being an electrician, it
wiill take me a while to assess the possibilities suggested. Some of
them sound like fun.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inkbird-Tem...ontroler&psc=1

As long as the boiler is less than 2200W.

That looks like a really good and easy to use piece of kit. Seems to
have many possible uses too going by the reviews.

It's a feature of my inexperience in these things that has me
wondering why the temperature control range ends just below water
boiling temperature, at 99 C?

"Temperature control range -50 ~ 99 ° C / -58 ~ 210 ° F "



The 12" stainless steel temperature probe that comes with the
alternative Inkbird Itc-308s model is said to have a temperature
measuring range of: -50C~120C.

But the Temperature control range of this model is also -50 ~ 99 ° C /
-58 ~ 210 ° F
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Inkbird-Itc...1805216&chn=ps

Do these descriptions suggest that there might be problems around
water's boiling poit?
--

Mike

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On Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:47:17 +0100
Mike Halmarack wrote:

It's a feature of my inexperience in these things that has me
wondering why the temperature control range ends just below water
boiling temperature, at 99 C?

Perhaps because it's a 2.1 digit readout.

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 16:49:27 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:47:17 +0100
Mike Halmarack wrote:

It's a feature of my inexperience in these things that has me
wondering why the temperature control range ends just below water
boiling temperature, at 99 C?

Perhaps because it's a 2.1 digit readout.

I expect you're right.
Does that mean it's a digital readout limitation, or a control range
limitation?
--

Mike

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"Rob Morley" wrote in message
news:20180902164927.480db6ae@Mars...
On Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:47:17 +0100
Mike Halmarack wrote:

It's a feature of my inexperience in these things that has me
wondering why the temperature control range ends just below water
boiling temperature, at 99 C?

Perhaps because it's a 2.1 digit readout.

Unlikely given that it does C and F

On 02/09/2018 13:47, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 19:19:56 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 01/09/2018 08:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Mike Halmarack
wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Thanks all for the good and varied advice on this question. I'm sure
the ideal answer is in there somewhere. Not being an electrician, it
wiill take me a while to assess the possibilities suggested. Some of
them sound like fun.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inkbird-Tem...ontroler&psc=1

As long as the boiler is less than 2200W.

That looks like a really good and easy to use piece of kit. Seems to
have many possible uses too going by the reviews.

It's a feature of my inexperience in these things that has me
wondering why the temperature control range ends just below water
boiling temperature, at 99 C?

"Temperature control range -50 ~ 99 ° C / -58 ~ 210 ° F"



The 12" stainless steel temperature probe that comes with the
alternative Inkbird Itc-308s model is said to have a temperature
measuring range of: -50C~120C.

But the Temperature control range of this model is also -50 ~ 99 ° C /
-58 ~ 210 ° F
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Inkbird-Itc...1805216&chn=ps

Do these descriptions suggest that there might be problems around
water's boiling poit?


NO!

Looks like that would be a much simpler option than what I linked to.
It's just that it is difficult to heat water beyond 100C without putting
it into a pressure vessel (and, pressure cookers excepted, you really
don't want to go there).

A lot of stuff (aquarium, vivarium, etc) that uses thermistor
temperature sensors puts an upper limit on claimed performance at 50 deg
C because thermistors are non-linear, and the errors are more
significant between 50 and 100 C. Thermistors are semiconductor devices
and "cook" at two or three hundred deg C, thermocouples mostly carry on
working up to the melting point of their wires (getting on for 1300 deg C).

On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 21:26:21 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 02/09/2018 13:47, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 19:19:56 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 01/09/2018 08:45, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Mike Halmarack
wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Thanks all for the good and varied advice on this question. I'm sure
the ideal answer is in there somewhere. Not being an electrician, it
wiill take me a while to assess the possibilities suggested. Some of
them sound like fun.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inkbird-Tem...ontroler&psc=1

As long as the boiler is less than 2200W.

That looks like a really good and easy to use piece of kit. Seems to
have many possible uses too going by the reviews.

It's a feature of my inexperience in these things that has me
wondering why the temperature control range ends just below water
boiling temperature, at 99 C?

"Temperature control range -50 ~ 99 ° C / -58 ~ 210 ° F"



The 12" stainless steel temperature probe that comes with the
alternative Inkbird Itc-308s model is said to have a temperature
measuring range of: -50C~120C.

But the Temperature control range of this model is also -50 ~ 99 ° C /
-58 ~ 210 ° F
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Inkbird-Itc...1805216&chn=ps

Do these descriptions suggest that there might be problems around
water's boiling poit?


NO!

Looks like that would be a much simpler option than what I linked to.
It's just that it is difficult to heat water beyond 100C without putting
it into a pressure vessel (and, pressure cookers excepted, you really
don't want to go there).

A lot of stuff (aquarium, vivarium, etc) that uses thermistor
temperature sensors puts an upper limit on claimed performance at 50 deg
C because thermistors are non-linear, and the errors are more
significant between 50 and 100 C. Thermistors are semiconductor devices
and "cook" at two or three hundred deg C, thermocouples mostly carry on
working up to the melting point of their wires (getting on for 1300 deg C).

I don't really understand a lot of this stuff but it seems that you
do. It's something of a relief to see that you thinks the easier, if
more expensive option is a viable choice for my purposes.
So, I'll go for the Inkbird option. Thanks for your help.
--

Mike

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In article ,
Mike Halmarack wrote:
I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit
skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling
point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size
papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The
smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of
the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The
ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not
electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be
compatible.

Why not just fit a proper thermostat? A clamp on hot water cylinder one
plus suitable relay should do it just fine.

--
*Until I was thirteen, I thought my name was SHUT UP .

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 31/08/2018 19:33, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Mike Halmarack
wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Presumably you're making it from RSG granules rather than boiling up
rabbit skins! I'm not sure that what you call a voltage regulator is
what you want. I think you need an energy regulator aka simmerstat,
but most of those available are for specific cooker models, and
although they'd probably work perfectly well if you get one that
matches the wattage rating of your boiler (probably 2 or 3 kW), there
are usually naked terminals sticking out of the back, so mount it in
an insulated box. This might do https://tinyurl.com/yd3pkuqm
Alternatively, do what this guy does, using partially cooled boiling
water from a kettle or even water from the hot tap
https://tinyurl.com/y92c8qoq


+1. You don't need anything particularly clever when you have a big
volume of water, as long as the controller will take the amps (or kW).

If you are after a specific temperature, there are loads of cheap but
reliable temperature controllers on eBay, e.g.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elitech-U...MAAOSwB09YKeJC

That one uses a thermistor, better ones will use a thermocouple.

This set of stuff is ridiculously cheap

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-L...mYgyPrdqh8P0dg

but needs a bit more wiring up. It comprises a temperature controller
which you can set up to control to a fraction of a degree, a
thermocouple, and a "solid state relay", i.e. a switch which will handle
a 3 kW heating element.

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On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 21:36:24 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 31/08/2018 19:33, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT), Mike Halmarack
wrote:

I've got a very old Swan boiler,240 volt. I have to make some rabbit skin and/or hide glue, which needs to be heated at lower than boiling point temperature. I need quite large quantities, to make ultra size papier mache traditional wood working tools for a theatre project.The smell of the hide glue will add a sense of authenticity.

Will an in-line voltage regulator enable me to reduce the temperature of the heating element in the boiler to various sub-boiling levels? The ones I've seen on Amazon are described as being 220vac and I'm not electrician enough to be sure these voltage regulators will be compatible.

Mike Halmarack

Presumably you're making it from RSG granules rather than boiling up
rabbit skins! I'm not sure that what you call a voltage regulator is
what you want. I think you need an energy regulator aka simmerstat,
but most of those available are for specific cooker models, and
although they'd probably work perfectly well if you get one that
matches the wattage rating of your boiler (probably 2 or 3 kW), there
are usually naked terminals sticking out of the back, so mount it in
an insulated box. This might do https://tinyurl.com/yd3pkuqm
Alternatively, do what this guy does, using partially cooled boiling
water from a kettle or even water from the hot tap
https://tinyurl.com/y92c8qoq


+1. You don't need anything particularly clever when you have a big
volume of water, as long as the controller will take the amps (or kW).

If you are after a specific temperature, there are loads of cheap but
reliable temperature controllers on eBay, e.g.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elitech-U...MAAOSwB09YKeJC

That one uses a thermistor, better ones will use a thermocouple.

This set of stuff is ridiculously cheap

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-L...mYgyPrdqh8P0dg

but needs a bit more wiring up. It comprises a temperature controller
which you can set up to control to a fraction of a degree, a
thermocouple, and a "solid state relay", i.e. a switch which will handle
a 3 kW heating element.

Do you know if there will be a range of probes/sensors which will be
compatible with this. There doesn't seem to be one with the kit, or am
I missing something?
Does the threaded end on the cable screw into one of the components in
the kit?




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--

Mike

On 03/09/2018 11:48, Mike Halmarack wrote:


+1. You don't need anything particularly clever when you have a big
volume of water, as long as the controller will take the amps (or kW).

If you are after a specific temperature, there are loads of cheap but
reliable temperature controllers on eBay, e.g.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elitech-U...MAAOSwB09YKeJC

That one uses a thermistor, better ones will use a thermocouple.

This set of stuff is ridiculously cheap

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-L...mYgyPrdqh8P0dg

but needs a bit more wiring up. It comprises a temperature controller
which you can set up to control to a fraction of a degree, a
thermocouple, and a "solid state relay", i.e. a switch which will handle
a 3 kW heating element.

Do you know if there will be a range of probes/sensors which will be
compatible with this. There doesn't seem to be one with the kit, or am
I missing something?
Does the threaded end on the cable screw into one of the components in
the kit?


It takes a type K thermocouple. Plenty on eBay. The "cold" end will have
a couple of wires which need to be connected to the appropriate screw
terminals in the controller (and the right way round).

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On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 12:22:26 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 03/09/2018 11:48, Mike Halmarack wrote:


+1. You don't need anything particularly clever when you have a big
volume of water, as long as the controller will take the amps (or kW).

If you are after a specific temperature, there are loads of cheap but
reliable temperature controllers on eBay, e.g.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elitech-U...MAAOSwB09YKeJC

That one uses a thermistor, better ones will use a thermocouple.

This set of stuff is ridiculously cheap

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-L...mYgyPrdqh8P0dg

but needs a bit more wiring up. It comprises a temperature controller
which you can set up to control to a fraction of a degree, a
thermocouple, and a "solid state relay", i.e. a switch which will handle
a 3 kW heating element.

Do you know if there will be a range of probes/sensors which will be
compatible with this. There doesn't seem to be one with the kit, or am
I missing something?
Does the threaded end on the cable screw into one of the components in
the kit?


It takes a type K thermocouple. Plenty on eBay. The "cold" end will have
a couple of wires which need to be connected to the appropriate screw
terminals in the controller (and the right way round).

Thanks for the extra info.
The right way round can sometimes be a bit of a mystery to me, though
nothing fatal to date.

Just in case commiting to buy is the unretracable step before finding
out the true cost, when this kit is described as £4.19 per unit,
do you think that means £4.19 for the lot, or 4 x £4.19?

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On 03/09/2018 13:01, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 12:22:26 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 03/09/2018 11:48, Mike Halmarack wrote:


+1. You don't need anything particularly clever when you have a big
volume of water, as long as the controller will take the amps (or kW).

If you are after a specific temperature, there are loads of cheap but
reliable temperature controllers on eBay, e.g.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Elitech-U...MAAOSwB09YKeJC

That one uses a thermistor, better ones will use a thermocouple.

This set of stuff is ridiculously cheap

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-L...mYgyPrdqh8P0dg

but needs a bit more wiring up. It comprises a temperature controller
which you can set up to control to a fraction of a degree, a
thermocouple, and a "solid state relay", i.e. a switch which will handle
a 3 kW heating element.

Do you know if there will be a range of probes/sensors which will be
compatible with this. There doesn't seem to be one with the kit, or am
I missing something?
Does the threaded end on the cable screw into one of the components in
the kit?


It takes a type K thermocouple. Plenty on eBay. The "cold" end will have
a couple of wires which need to be connected to the appropriate screw
terminals in the controller (and the right way round).

Thanks for the extra info.
The right way round can sometimes be a bit of a mystery to me, though
nothing fatal to date.

Just in case commiting to buy is the unretracable step before finding
out the true cost, when this kit is described as £4.19 per unit,
do you think that means £4.19 for the lot, or 4 x £4.19?

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Slightly confusing site.

Seems to be £12 without the heatsink, £14 with. For 13A you might well
get away without the heatsink if you screw the SSR to the side of your
metal box. If you put it in a plastic box, then you probably need the
heatsink.

Getting thermocouple polarity right is not difficult. One way round, it
will display the right temperature (and will increase if you grip the
tip with your fingers). The other way won't.

Mike Halmarack wrote:

when this kit is described as £4.19 per unit,
do you think that means £4.19 for the lot, or 4 x £4.19?

£4.19 is the heatsink alone ...