I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

On 25/08/2018 22:18, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The fixing
screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone stronger
than a small child trying to force their way in.


I agree.

When visiting in the US some years back, I stayed in a motel style hotel
where the rooms opened onto the outside, rather than a corridor. They
had a foot operated bar you could press near the bottom of the door
which allowed it to open a few inches but wedged against the floor. To
free it, you needed to close the door.

While it seemed secure, I did wonder about safety- if someone had
operated it, gone to bed etc, and taken ill etc. In a hotel, that kind
of thing must happen.

--

Remarkable Coincidences:
The Stock Market Crashes of 1929 and 2008 happened on the same
date in October. In Oct 1907, a run on the Knickerbocker Trust
Company led to the Great Depression.

On Saturday, 25 August 2018 22:18:33 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

why would any diyer use the supplied screws?

They're not meant to provide much security, just more than an open door. They do that.


NT

On Sunday, 26 August 2018 02:10:51 UTC+1, wrote:
On Saturday, 25 August 2018 22:18:33 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

why would any diyer use the supplied screws?

They're not meant to provide much security, just more than an open door. They do that.


NT

So are you saying such a produce is being sold that is NOT fit for purpose.
Does this not contravene some sort of law EU or UK ?

On Tuesday, 28 August 2018 13:11:10 UTC+1, whisky-dave wrote:
On Sunday, 26 August 2018 02:10:51 UTC+1, tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 25 August 2018 22:18:33 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

why would any diyer use the supplied screws?

They're not meant to provide much security, just more than an open door. They do that.


NT

So are you saying such a produce is being sold that is NOT fit for purpose.
Does this not contravene some sort of law EU or UK ?

you should try Rodney's wet paper bag test.


NT

On Saturday, 25 August 2018 22:18:33 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

why would any diyer use the supplied screws?

They're not meant to provide much security, just more than an open door. They do that.


NT

has brought this to us :
why would any diyer use the supplied screws?

Perhaps a competent DIY'er would have some more robust screws, but most
will be bought by the less than competent and even local organisations,
doing 'good turns' for older people.


They're not meant to provide much security, just more than an open door. They
do that.

Unless they are very firmly fixed, they give a completely false sense
of security, much less than a closed door. The weak point, is where
they attach to the face of the door jamb with a couple of tiny, short
screws.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The fixing
screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone stronger
than a small child trying to force their way in.


Psychological security to some old folk.

on 26/08/2018, FMurtz supposed :
Psychological security to some old folk.

Yes, that is about it.

On 26/08/2018 07:36, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
on 26/08/2018, FMurtz supposed :
Psychological security to some old folk.

Yes, that is about it.

You would have struggled to break the chubb chain I had on my door.
Its not that easy to break 1 1/2" no 8 screws in a wooden frame.
Especially as you are trying to shear them and not pull them out.

The frame would break first as it would if you tried to break the lock.

On Sunday, 26 August 2018 13:34:16 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/08/2018 07:36, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
on 26/08/2018, FMurtz supposed :
Psychological security to some old folk.

Yes, that is about it.

You would have struggled to break the chubb chain I had on my door.
Its not that easy to break 1 1/2" no 8 screws in a wooden frame.
Especially as you are trying to shear them and not pull them out.

The frame would break first as it would if you tried to break the lock.

Wood frames aren't very strong. When fitting lock striker plates I prefer to screw them through into the brick/blockwork.


NT

On 25/08/2018 22:18, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The fixing
screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone stronger
than a small child trying to force their way in.

They are not intended to stop a forcible entry. They are to allow the
occupant to check caller ID without opening the door far enough for the
caller simply to walk in.

--
--

Colin Bignell

Nightjar wrote :
They are not intended to stop a forcible entry. They are to allow the
occupant to check caller ID without opening the door far enough for the
caller simply to walk in.

...and if the caller might be intending to force their way in past the
chain?

Things should either serve a valid purpose or not be promoted as a
security measure.

On 26/08/2018 09:18, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Nightjar wrote :
They are not intended to stop a forcible entry. They are to allow the
occupant to check caller ID without opening the door far enough for
the caller simply to walk in.

..and if the caller might be intending to force their way in past the
chain?

They probably wouldn't bother to ring the bell before kicking the door
in. Distraction thieves are far more common and they rely upon their
theft going unnoticed until they are long gone, so they wouldn't force
their way in past a door chain.

Things should either serve a valid purpose or not be promoted as a
security measure.

They do, just not the purpose you envisaged. Of course, today a CCTV
door answering system is probably even better.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On Sunday, 26 August 2018 12:27:31 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 26/08/2018 09:18, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Things should either serve a valid purpose or not be promoted as a
security measure.

They do, just not the purpose you envisaged.

of course

Of course, today a CCTV
door answering system is probably even better.

deters different people.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 26 August 2018 12:27:31 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 26/08/2018 09:18, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Things should either serve a valid purpose or not be promoted as a
security measure.

They do, just not the purpose you envisaged.

of course

Of course, today a CCTV
door answering system is probably even better.

deters different people.

Does allow you to see if its safe to open the door to them.

On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 12:27:29 +0100, Nightjar wrote
:
snip

Of course, today a CCTV
door answering system is probably even better.

On the grounds that a local shop had it's new exterior CCTV kit stolen
off the wall, what stops someone nicking half (most) of your expensive
Ring CCTV doorbell off your door?

Cheers, T i m

On 26/08/2018 13:47, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 12:27:29 +0100, Nightjar wrote
:
snip

Of course, today a CCTV
door answering system is probably even better.

On the grounds that a local shop had it's new exterior CCTV kit stolen
off the wall, what stops someone nicking half (most) of your expensive
Ring CCTV doorbell off your door?

I long ago decided against buying anything made by Ring. My CCTV
doorbell is a commercial, vandal resistant product that is firmly fixed
into a recess in a brick wall, using hidden fixings. In any case, the
outdoor bit is nothing more than a push button, speaker and small
camera. All the expensive bits are indoors.


--
--

Colin Bignell

T i m wrote
Nightjar wrote

Of course, today a CCTV door answering system is probably even better.

On the grounds that a local shop had it's new exterior CCTV
kit stolen off the wall, what stops someone nicking half (most)
of your expensive Ring CCTV doorbell off your door?

Have it inside looking thru a hole in the door.

I do agree, I have one, but I guess its the deterrent value as the would be
burglar might not want to test it as it might alert neighbours kicking the
door down or the chain loose.
I guess the end of a sawn off poking though a hole might have the same
effect.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The fixing
screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone stronger
than a small child trying to force their way in.

Brian Gaff wrote:
I do agree, I have one, but I guess its the deterrent value as the would be
burglar might not want to test it as it might alert neighbours kicking the
door down or the chain loose.
I guess the end of a sawn off poking though a hole might have the same
effect.
Brian

in showing the idiocy of poking a shotgun through a part open door.

Brian Gaff wrote:
I do agree, I have one, but I guess its the deterrent value as the
would be burglar might not want to test it as it might alert
neighbours kicking the door down or the chain loose.
I guess the end of a sawn off poking though a hole might have the
same effect.
Brian

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as
a means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist
anyone stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

If you have a wooden front door they might just be okay I supposes. With
bigger screws. My front door is plastic.
I'm getting older and a bit uneasy. If somebody comes to my front door in
the dark, I do have a hammer nearby.
Might just take a look at door chains on the Interweb. Better than nothing.

Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:22:16 +0100, "Mr Pounder Esquire"
wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:
I do agree, I have one, but I guess its the deterrent value as the
would be burglar might not want to test it as it might alert
neighbours kicking the door down or the chain loose.
I guess the end of a sawn off poking though a hole might have the
same effect.
Brian

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions,
as a means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door.
The fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist
anyone stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

If you have a wooden front door they might just be okay I supposes.
With bigger screws. My front door is plastic.

But don't they have a metal core? On my late mother's PVC door, I
screwed the chain receptor bit on with self-tapping screws that cut
through into the metal core, and the chain end onto the block work
reveal around the door, so that neither end would experience a direct
outward pull if someone tried to force open the door.

Yow Chris!
I rather think that you are correct. I have a mate who has the drill bits,
so if and when I will ask him to do the little job.
Oh! Weedol also kills grass as I have recently discovered. DOH!

On 26/08/2018 16:31, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:22:16 +0100, "Mr Pounder Esquire"
wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:
I do agree, I have one, but I guess its the deterrent value as the
would be burglar might not want to test it as it might alert
neighbours kicking the door down or the chain loose.
I guess the end of a sawn off poking though a hole might have the
same effect.
Brian

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions,
as a means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door.
The fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist
anyone stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

If you have a wooden front door they might just be okay I supposes.
With bigger screws. My front door is plastic.

But don't they have a metal core? On my late mother's PVC door, I
screwed the chain receptor bit on with self-tapping screws that cut
through into the metal core, and the chain end onto the block work
reveal around the door, so that neither end would experience a direct
outward pull if someone tried to force open the door.

Yow Chris!
I rather think that you are correct. I have a mate who has the drill bits,
so if and when I will ask him to do the little job.
Oh! Weedol also kills grass as I have recently discovered. DOH!



Normally aluminium. You do need to size the drill correctly to the self
tapper for good strength. Also there may be moving bits inside.

newshound wrote:
On 26/08/2018 16:31, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:22:16 +0100, "Mr Pounder Esquire"
wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:
I do agree, I have one, but I guess its the deterrent value as
the would be burglar might not want to test it as it might alert
neighbours kicking the door down or the chain loose.
I guess the end of a sawn off poking though a hole might have the
same effect.
Brian

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions,
as a means of answering the door to an unknown person at the
door. The fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow
to resist anyone stronger than a small child trying to force
their way in.

If you have a wooden front door they might just be okay I supposes.
With bigger screws. My front door is plastic.

But don't they have a metal core? On my late mother's PVC door, I
screwed the chain receptor bit on with self-tapping screws that cut
through into the metal core, and the chain end onto the block work
reveal around the door, so that neither end would experience a
direct outward pull if someone tried to force open the door.

Yow Chris!
I rather think that you are correct. I have a mate who has the drill
bits, so if and when I will ask him to do the little job.
Oh! Weedol also kills grass as I have recently discovered. DOH!



Normally aluminium. You do need to size the drill correctly to the
self tapper for good strength. Also there may be moving bits inside.

Yes and thanks about the moving bits.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.


One on a relatives house is probably original to the house construction
circa 1880,
Ive known it for over 60 years when we lived in the property.
Large and strong looking compared to modern examples.

Almost like this one on eBay except that is Iron and ours is brass or
bronze.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-C...4AAOSw8fRbQ-Bw


GH

Chris Hogg formulated on Sunday :
Don't forget that, depending on how they're mounted, the force on the
anchor plates is often sideways rather than a straight pull. Screws
will withstand a significantly higher force from that direction
without ripping out, compared with a straight pull.

That applies to the part which fixes on the door, but not the part
which fixes on the door frame, where the chain or bracket is attempting
to pull the screws directly. On a wooden frame, a bracket which wrapped
around and was fixed into the side, would be much more able to with
stand the door being pushed.

On 26/08/2018 08:06, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:18:31 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

Don't forget that, depending on how they're mounted, the force on the
anchor plates is often sideways rather than a straight pull. Screws
will withstand a significantly higher force from that direction
without ripping out, compared with a straight pull.

Good point. The devil is in the detail. I think I have only fitted one
once, but I didn't use the supplied screws!

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:18:31 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The fixing
screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone stronger
than a small child trying to force their way in.

This is an area where no matter how good, practical, cost effective and
recommended any improvement is, it will die due to lack of adoption.

It's why a lot of things in houses are rarely "new".

I'm sure a wet afternoon would see the posters on uk.d-i-y coming up with
at least 5 viable options for enhanced front door security. None of which
will see the light of day.

Off the top of my head:

1) some form of hinge mechanism that prevents the hinge fully opening
unless a dropbar is lifted.

2) a sliding arm limiter (or limiters - top and bottom) (cf windows) that
hits a pin in the track unless released by a lever on the inside of the
door

(both have the possibility of being retro fitted ....)

Maybe I'd have some luck marketing them as "MyDoorPal" or something.
Highlight it's use of Google Maps or some ********. "The door that knows
where you are." should do it.

IMO it makes a lot more sense to have a decent video system
which is entirely inside the door, looking out thru hole in it,
so you can see if you recognise who is knocking on the door.
That way you continue to use the reasonably secure door
until you decide that you will open it at all for the visitor.

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 04:59:30 +1000, Josh Nack wrote:

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:18:31 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I have just never seen the point of these and the rigid versions, as a
means of answering the door to an unknown person at the door. The
fixing screws are just far too small/ far to shallow to resist anyone
stronger than a small child trying to force their way in.

This is an area where no matter how good, practical, cost effective and
recommended any improvement is, it will die due to lack of adoption.

It's why a lot of things in houses are rarely "new".

I'm sure a wet afternoon would see the posters on uk.d-i-y coming up
with at least 5 viable options for enhanced front door security. None
of which will see the light of day.

Off the top of my head:

1) some form of hinge mechanism that prevents the hinge fully opening
unless a dropbar is lifted.

2) a sliding arm limiter (or limiters - top and bottom) (cf windows)
that hits a pin in the track unless released by a lever on the inside
of the door

(both have the possibility of being retro fitted ....)

Maybe I'd have some luck marketing them as "MyDoorPal" or something.
Highlight it's use of Google Maps or some ********. "The door that
knows where you are." should do it.

IMO it makes a lot more sense to have a decent video system which is
entirely inside the door, looking out thru hole in it,
so you can see if you recognise who is knocking on the door. That way
you continue to use the reasonably secure door until you decide that you
will open it at all for the visitor.

Wouldn't a simply lensed spyhole be cheaper

Of course it would.

and as effective ?

No. The video camera means it works just as well if you
arent home, or on holiday etc. Or out in the garden or
upstairs in the study etc or in the man cave. You can
just ignore the Joveys or chuggers and if its a
delivery person tell them that you are coming
to the door or to leave the parcel at the door.