We have a combined heat and light unit in the bathroom that has failed.
One of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748

It's a pretty ancient and lethal design, but apparently it's approved
for Zone 3 in the bathroom. This particular light is actually in zone 2,
but it could be moved pretty easily to zone 3.

Can anyone suggest a combined heat and light fitting that is less lethal
than this one and suitable for zone 2, please? Or even zone 3?

The right way to do this is to run a spur off the ring main, but that
would involve channelling the walls, as there's no 13 amp supply above
the ceiling. So, I think it's sensible to opt for something that runs
off the lighting circuit.

Finally, there is an immersion heater in the bathroom. I suppose I could
take a spur off the supply to that, but I'll have to check the fuse
rating and the immersion heater power consumption.

I have a 750 w heater in the bathroom running off a light circuit its been
in for years.
Not being able to see what you have, what makes you say its lethal?
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"GB" wrote in message
news
We have a combined heat and light unit in the bathroom that has failed.
One of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748

It's a pretty ancient and lethal design, but apparently it's approved for
Zone 3 in the bathroom. This particular light is actually in zone 2, but
it could be moved pretty easily to zone 3.

Can anyone suggest a combined heat and light fitting that is less lethal
than this one and suitable for zone 2, please? Or even zone 3?

The right way to do this is to run a spur off the ring main, but that
would involve channelling the walls, as there's no 13 amp supply above the
ceiling. So, I think it's sensible to opt for something that runs off the
lighting circuit.

Finally, there is an immersion heater in the bathroom. I suppose I could
take a spur off the supply to that, but I'll have to check the fuse rating
and the immersion heater power consumption.

On 07/07/2018 11:36, GB wrote:
We have a combined heat and light unit in the bathroom that has failed.
One of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748


It's a pretty ancient and lethal design, but apparently it's approved
for Zone 3 in the bathroom. This particular light is actually in zone 2,
but it could be moved pretty easily to zone 3.

Can anyone suggest a combined heat and light fitting that is less lethal
than this one and suitable for zone 2, please? Or even zone 3?

The right way to do this is to run a spur off the ring main, but that
would involve channelling the walls, as there's no 13 amp supply above
the ceiling. So, I think it's sensible to opt for something that runs
off the lighting circuit.

Finally, there is an immersion heater in the bathroom. I suppose I could
take a spur off the supply to that, but I'll have to check the fuse
rating and the immersion heater power consumption.

Does it have to be combined heat and light?.

--
Adam

On 07/07/2018 11:53, ARW wrote:

Does it have to be combined heat and light?.


No. That was just what's there.

On 07/07/2018 11:52, Brian Gaff wrote:
I have a 750 w heater in the bathroom running off a light circuit its been
in for years.
Not being able to see what you have, what makes you say its lethal?
Brian



It's got a radiant ring heater. The whole unit is made of metal. The
user who was present at the time says it went bang but didn't blow any
of the fuses. It may not even be earthed!

On 07/07/2018 12:00, GB wrote:
On 07/07/2018 11:53, ARW wrote:

Does it have to be combined heat and light?.


No. That was just what's there.

Maybe something along the lines of

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/product/fx...cord-and-timer

might be better with a separate light.

If set to 1kW you may be able to power it from the immersion supply if
the immersion supply is a standard supply ie In old money an immersion
is 3kW at 240V so ran at 12.5A Adding an extra 1kW would push this up to
16.6A, Normally this would be fed from a 16A MCB or 15A fuse and would
not cause a problem.

If the immersion is only used for emergencies then it is not a problem.

--
Adam

It's a round quartz heater and light.

Used to be used in bathrooms some years ago before central heating was used.


I have a 750 w heater in the bathroom running off a light circuit its been
in for years.
Not being able to see what you have, what makes you say its lethal?


--
Adam

On Saturday, 7 July 2018 12:03:42 UTC+1, GB wrote:
On 07/07/2018 11:52, Brian Gaff wrote:

I have a 750 w heater in the bathroom running off a light circuit its been
in for years.

Not being able to see what you have, what makes you say its lethal?

It's got a radiant ring heater.

looks like a tubular metal element. no problem.


The whole unit is made of metal.

no problem


The
user who was present at the time says it went bang but didn't blow any
of the fuses.

element failure is the most likely culprit


It may not even be earthed!

it may be anything, but most likely it's a heater that has been installed sanely.


NT

On 07/07/2018 12:10, ARW wrote:

Maybe something along the lines of

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/product/fx...cord-and-timer


might be better with a separate light.

Thanks. I'll get one of those. I suddenly remembered the built in
wardrobe, so I can run a cable up inside that and across the ceiling, so
that will power a decent fan heater.


If set to 1kW you may be able to power it from the immersion supply if
the immersion supply is a standard supply ie In old money an immersion
is 3kW at 240V so ran at 12.5A Adding an extra 1kW would push this up to
16.6A, Normally this would be fed from a 16A MCB or 15A fuse and would
not cause a problem.

If the immersion is only used for emergencies then it is not a problem.


The immersion is the only source of hot water.

1970-built house, with a central electric storage heater. Gas only came
to the area much later. Fortunately, I like Artex.

My new neighbour has just installed a gas boiler in his bedroom. And
he's replastered the ceilings, so I assume he doesn't like Artex.

On 07/07/2018 13:48, wrote:

It may not even be earthed!

it may be anything, but most likely it's a heater that has been installed sanely.

But I don't think it's legal to replace it like for like, as it's a zone
3 heater going into zone 2.

It was earthed, btw.




NT

GB wrote:
On 07/07/2018 13:48, wrote:

It may not even be earthed!

it may be anything, but most likely it's a heater that has been
installed sanely.

But I don't think it's legal to replace it like for like, as it's a zone
3 heater going into zone 2.

It was earthed, btw.




NT


We use things like this sometimes in Australia.

https://tinyurl.com/y96dxqch

"GB" wrote in message
news
We have a combined heat and light unit in the bathroom that has failed.
One of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748

It's a pretty ancient and lethal design, but apparently it's approved for
Zone 3 in the bathroom. This particular light is actually in zone 2, but
it could be moved pretty easily to zone 3.

Can anyone suggest a combined heat and light fitting that is less lethal
than this one and suitable for zone 2, please? Or even zone 3?

The right way to do this is to run a spur off the ring main, but that
would involve channelling the walls, as there's no 13 amp supply above the
ceiling. So, I think it's sensible to opt for something that runs off the
lighting circuit.

You won't get enough heat that way.

Finally, there is an immersion heater in the bathroom. I suppose I could
take a spur off the supply to that, but I'll have to check the fuse rating
and the immersion heater power consumption.

Definitely a better approach IMO.

On 07/07/2018 14:26, GB wrote:
On 07/07/2018 12:10, ARW wrote:

Maybe something along the lines of

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/product/fx...cord-and-timer


might be better with a separate light.

Thanks. I'll get one of those. I suddenly remembered the built in
wardrobe, so I can run a cable up inside that and across the ceiling, so
that will power a decent fan heater.


If set to 1kW you may be able to power it from the immersion supply if
the immersion supply is a standard supply ie In old money an immersion
is 3kW at 240V so ran at 12.5A Adding an extra 1kW would push this up
to 16.6A, Normally this would be fed from a 16A MCB or 15A fuse and
would not cause a problem.

If the immersion is only used for emergencies then it is not a problem.


The immersion is the only source of hot water.

1970-built house, with a central electric storage heater. Gas only came
to the area much later. Fortunately, I like Artex.

My new neighbour has just installed a gas boiler in his bedroom. And
he's replastered the ceilings, so I assume he doesn't like Artex.

No chance of taking power from the sockets?

BTW if you wanted to swap the fitting like for like your chances of
death in that bathroom is no greater than it was in 1970. You are hardly
likely to try touching the light whist you are in the bath are you.



--
Adam

On 07/07/18 11:36, GB wrote:
We have a combined heat and light unit in the bathroom that has failed.
One of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748


It's a pretty ancient and lethal design, but apparently it's approved
for Zone 3 in the bathroom. This particular light is actually in zone 2,
but it could be moved pretty easily to zone 3.

Can anyone suggest a combined heat and light fitting that is less lethal
than this one and suitable for zone 2, please? Or even zone 3?

The right way to do this is to run a spur off the ring main, but that
would involve channelling the walls, as there's no 13 amp supply above
the ceiling. So, I think it's sensible to opt for something that runs
off the lighting circuit.

Finally, there is an immersion heater in the bathroom. I suppose I could
take a spur off the supply to that, but I'll have to check the fuse
rating and the immersion heater power consumption.

There's no Zone 3 anymore.

If this light is 2.25m above the floor, it is outside the zones (even
if over the bath) so you can do what you like:

https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring...ath-or-shower/

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:56:02 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

snip

There's no Zone 3 anymore.

If this light is 2.25m above the floor, it is outside the zones (even
if over the bath) so you can do what you like:

https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring...ath-or-shower/

So if my bathroom ceiling is 2.4m high ...

"Yes, 230 V fittings may be installed above a shower or bath but they
must be at least IPX4, i.e. enclosed and water protected."

Was that heater / light IPX4?

And it would (now?) have to be on an RCD (and would a light cct
typically / traditionally be on a RCD)?.

Cheers, T i m

expressed precisely :
looks like a tubular metal element. no problem.

Looks like a silica element to me, a sort of glass. There is certainly
a problem if all that metal is not properly earthed.

On 08/07/18 10:25, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:56:02 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

snip

There's no Zone 3 anymore.

If this light is 2.25m above the floor, it is outside the zones (even
if over the bath) so you can do what you like:

https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring...ath-or-shower/

So if my bathroom ceiling is 2.4m high ...

"Yes, 230 V fittings may be installed above a shower or bath but they
must be at least IPX4, i.e. enclosed and water protected."

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/...ection-701.pdf

Green book: 701.512.2:

"Installed electrical equipment shall have at least the following
degrees of protection:

(i) In Zone 0: IPX7

(ii) In zone 1 and 2: IPX4

....


Nothing is said (as far as I can see) for anything outside of the zones.


But that doesn't preclude using common sense. I would not install the
unit described over a bath.

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:54:56 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

snip
"Yes, 230 V fittings may be installed above a shower or bath but they
must be at least IPX4, i.e. enclosed and water protected."

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/...ection-701.pdf

Green book: 701.512.2:

"Installed electrical equipment shall have at least the following
degrees of protection:

(i) In Zone 0: IPX7

(ii) In zone 1 and 2: IPX4

Ok.

Nothing is said (as far as I can see) for anything outside of the zones.

Ok.


But that doesn't preclude using common sense. I would not install the
unit described over a bath.

No, me neither, or not on any ceiling height where it could be touched
anyway. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 08/07/2018 10:43, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
expressed precisely :
looks like a tubular metal element. no problem.

Looks like a silica element to me, a sort of glass. There is certainly a
problem if all that metal is not properly earthed.


The OP did say it was earthed.

Now he also said that the house was built in 1970 (lighting circuits
were required to be earthed from 1966).

However as you have pointed out it needs to be properly earthed. The
presence of an earth wire (cpc) does not mean that it is earthed.

It would now be a good time whilst replacing the fitting to test the
earth. It does not need to be a earth loop tester, a simple multimeter
is all that is needed.

I would, if at work, take an earth loop reading and record it on my job
sheet.

--
Adam

On 07/07/2018 11:36, GB wrote:
We have a combined heat and light unit in the bathroom that has failed.
One of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748


It's a pretty ancient and lethal design,

What makes you say that?

but apparently it's approved
for Zone 3 in the bathroom. This particular light is actually in zone 2,
but it could be moved pretty easily to zone 3.

Can anyone suggest a combined heat and light fitting that is less lethal
than this one and suitable for zone 2, please? Or even zone 3?

The right way to do this is to run a spur off the ring main,

That brings an additional circuit into the room, and requires another
circuit to be included into the bathroom's equipotential zone - not a
big deal, but it does require a bit more work than might otherwise be
expected.

Finally, there is an immersion heater in the bathroom. I suppose I could
take a spur off the supply to that, but I'll have to check the fuse
rating and the immersion heater power consumption.

If its a 3kW heater on a 16A circuit, then you will probably get away
with a 1kW heater in addition.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sunday, 8 July 2018 10:43:16 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
tabbypurr expressed precisely :

looks like a tubular metal element. no problem.

Looks like a silica element to me, a sort of glass.

it could be either

There is certainly
a problem if all that metal is not properly earthed.

but no basis for claiming it's not earthed.


NT

On 07/07/2018 13:48, wrote:
On Saturday, 7 July 2018 12:03:42 UTC+1, GB wrote:
On 07/07/2018 11:52, Brian Gaff wrote:

I have a 750 w heater in the bathroom running off a light circuit its been
in for years.

Not being able to see what you have, what makes you say its lethal?

It's got a radiant ring heater.

looks like a tubular metal element. no problem.

Are you looking at the wrong picture? ARW says its a ceramic/quartz
element and so do I.

On 08/07/2018 09:38, ARW wrote:
On 07/07/2018 14:26, GB wrote:
On 07/07/2018 12:10, ARW wrote:

Maybe something along the lines of

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/product/fx...cord-and-timer


might be better with a separate light.

Thanks. I'll get one of those. I suddenly remembered the built in
wardrobe, so I can run a cable up inside that and across the ceiling,
so that will power a decent fan heater.


If set to 1kW you may be able to power it from the immersion supply
if the immersion supply is a standard supply ie In old money an
immersion is 3kW at 240V so ran at 12.5A Adding an extra 1kW would
push this up to 16.6A, Normally this would be fed from a 16A MCB or
15A fuse and would not cause a problem.

If the immersion is only used for emergencies then it is not a problem.


The immersion is the only source of hot water.

1970-built house, with a central electric storage heater. Gas only
came to the area much later. Fortunately, I like Artex.

My new neighbour has just installed a gas boiler in his bedroom. And
he's replastered the ceilings, so I assume he doesn't like Artex.

No chance of taking power from the sockets?

BTW if you wanted to swap the fitting like for like your chances of
death in that bathroom is no greater than it was in 1970. You are hardly
likely to try touching the light whist you are in the bath are you.




He can always fit an RCD in if he wants to make it safer.

On 08/07/2018 10:54, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/07/18 10:25, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:56:02 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

snip

There's no Zone 3 anymore.

If this light is 2.25m above the floor, it is outside the zones (even
if over the bath) so you can do what you like:

https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring...ath-or-shower/


So if my bathroom ceiling is 2.4m high ...

"Yes, 230 V fittings may be installed above a shower or bath but they
must be at least IPX4, i.e. enclosed and water protected."

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/...ection-701.pdf

Green book: 701.512.2:

"Installed electrical equipment shall have at least the following
degrees of protection:

(i) In Zone 0: IPX7

(ii) In zone 1 and 2: IPX4

...


Nothing is said (as far as I can see) for anything outside of the zones.


But that doesn't preclude using common sense. I would not install the
unit described over a bath.




The real danger is getting burnt if its accidentally splashed and the
element shatters. There is no significant electrical danger if you can't
reach it.

On 08/07/2018 13:24, John Rumm wrote:

If its a 3kW heater on a 16A circuit, then you will probably get away
with a 1kW heater in addition.



Put it on a DPDT switch so only one can be on at the same time?
Or aren't you allowed to use logic in electrical circuits?

On 08/07/2018 14:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/07/2018 13:24, John Rumm wrote:

If its a 3kW heater on a 16A circuit, then you will probably get away
with a 1kW heater in addition.



Put it on a DPDT switch so only one can be on at the same time?
Or aren't you allowed to use logic in electrical circuits?



Could use an E7 immersion switch.

--
Adam

On 08/07/2018 14:48, ARW wrote:
On 08/07/2018 14:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/07/2018 13:24, John Rumm wrote:

If its a 3kW heater on a 16A circuit, then you will probably get away
with a 1kW heater in addition.



Put it on a DPDT switch so only one can be on at the same time?
Or aren't you allowed to use logic in electrical circuits?



Could use an E7 immersion switch.

eg MK5208

https://www.mkelectric.com/en-gb/Pro.../K5208WHI.aspx


--
Adam

On 08/07/2018 14:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/07/2018 13:24, John Rumm wrote:

If its a 3kW heater on a 16A circuit, then you will probably get away
with a 1kW heater in addition.



Put it on a DPDT switch so only one can be on at the same time?
Or aren't you allowed to use logic in electrical circuits?

Yup, you can get switches with interlocks to allow only one load at a time.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/07/18 13:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/07/2018 10:54, Tim Watts wrote:
On 08/07/18 10:25, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:56:02 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

snip

There's no Zone 3 anymore.

If this light is 2.25m above the floor, it is outside the zones (even
if over the bath) so you can do what you like:

https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring...ath-or-shower/


So if my bathroom ceiling is 2.4m high ...

"Yes, 230 V fittings may be installed above a shower or bath but they
must be at least IPX4, i.e. enclosed and water protected."

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/...ection-701.pdf

Green book: 701.512.2:

"Installed electrical equipment shall have at least the following
degrees of protection:

(i) In Zone 0: IPX7

(ii) In zone 1 and 2: IPX4

...


Nothing is said (as far as I can see) for anything outside of the zones.


But that doesn't preclude using common sense. I would not install the
unit described over a bath.




The real danger is getting burnt if its accidentally splashed and the
element shatters. There is no significant electrical danger if you can't
reach it.


I'm pretty sure I can touch something at say 2.3m whilst standing in a
bath. I'm surprised the regs don't take zone 2 higher, and/or include
"from the base of a bath or shower tray" just to wrap up pathological
edge cases.

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:20:11 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:
snip

The real danger is getting burnt if its accidentally splashed and the
element shatters. There is no significant electrical danger if you can't
reach it.


I'm pretty sure I can touch something at say 2.3m whilst standing in a
bath.

I could probably fit the thing to the (2.4m) high bathroom ceiling
whist standing on the floor! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 08/07/2018 13:45, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/07/2018 09:38, ARW wrote:
On 07/07/2018 14:26, GB wrote:
On 07/07/2018 12:10, ARW wrote:

Maybe something along the lines of

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/product/fx...cord-and-timer


might be better with a separate light.

Thanks. I'll get one of those. I suddenly remembered the built in
wardrobe, so I can run a cable up inside that and across the ceiling,
so that will power a decent fan heater.


If set to 1kW you may be able to power it from the immersion supply
if the immersion supply is a standard supply ie In old money an
immersion is 3kW at 240V so ran at 12.5A Adding an extra 1kW would
push this up to 16.6A, Normally this would be fed from a 16A MCB or
15A fuse and would not cause a problem.

If the immersion is only used for emergencies then it is not a problem.


The immersion is the only source of hot water.

1970-built house, with a central electric storage heater. Gas only
came to the area much later. Fortunately, I like Artex.

My new neighbour has just installed a gas boiler in his bedroom. And
he's replastered the ceilings, so I assume he doesn't like Artex.

No chance of taking power from the sockets?

BTW if you wanted to swap the fitting like for like your chances of
death in that bathroom is no greater than it was in 1970. You are
hardly likely to try touching the light whist you are in the bath are
you.




He can always fit an RCD in if he wants to make it safer.


An RCD fused spur would be the ideal thing to fit.

However just fitting one RCD to a circuit in the bathroom would not make
it compliant to today regs.


--
Adam

On 08/07/2018 13:24, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/07/2018 11:36, GB wrote:
We have a combined heat and light unit in the bathroom that has
failed. One of these.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748


It's a pretty ancient and lethal design,

What makes you say that?

but apparently it's approved for Zone 3 in the bathroom. This
particular light is actually in zone 2, but it could be moved pretty
easily to zone 3.

Can anyone suggest a combined heat and light fitting that is less
lethal than this one and suitable for zone 2, please? Or even zone 3?

The right way to do this is to run a spur off the ring main,

That brings an additional circuit into the room, and requires another
circuit to be included into the bathroom's equipotential zone - not a
big deal, but it does require a bit more work than might otherwise be
expected.

Finally, there is an immersion heater in the bathroom. I suppose I
could take a spur off the supply to that, but I'll have to check the
fuse rating and the immersion heater power consumption.

If its a 3kW heater on a 16A circuit, then you will probably get away
with a 1kW heater in addition.



I somehow doubt that the OP has either RCDs or equipotential bonding in
place to meet the current regs or even the regs 2 editions ago.

We have to draw a fine line at work if the bathroom electrics are old.

The last thing you want to say is "Sorry, it's really not safe for us to
fit XYZ without more electrical work", but sometimes you have to.

If I am going to kill someone then it will be premeditated murder not
through **** electrical work. I can bend the rules to help people out
but you can only bend them so far.





--
Adam

On 09/07/2018 17:53, ARW wrote:
On 08/07/2018 13:45, dennis@home wrote:

8

He can always fit an RCD in if he wants to make it safer.


An RCD fused spur would be the ideal thing to fit.

However just fitting one RCD to a circuit in the bathroom would not make
it compliant to today regs.



Probably, but better than it is.

On 09/07/2018 20:09, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/07/2018 17:53, ARW wrote:
On 08/07/2018 13:45, dennis@home wrote:

8

He can always fit an RCD in if he wants to make it safer.


An RCD fused spur would be the ideal thing to fit.

However just fitting one RCD to a circuit in the bathroom would not
make it compliant to today regs.



Probably, but better than it is.


It might be.

--
Adam

I think the heater we had would be more lethal now than when it was
installed in 1971, the reason being that we installed a shower at one
end of the bath. So, people are standing in the bath, rather than sitting.

Anyway, I have installed an IP44 light in place of the heater, and a
downflow heater protected by an RCD at the opposite side of the bathroom
to the bath.

Really, the whole house needs a re-wire. There are no RCDs in the
consumer unit, which has rewireable ceramic fuseholders. I would replace
the consumer unit, except that I have no idea how the whole system is
wired. There are three consumer units, and it's complicated by the
economy 7 wiring. I have no idea why there are 3 consumer units, and
nothing is labelled. Nearly all the wiring is hidden behind the board
the CUs are mounted on.

On the other hand, I had a look at the lighting circuit whilst I was up
in the loft, and the cable appears to be in good condition. I had one of
the power points out, and again the cable seemed fine.

I haven't taken the bath panel off, but I bet there's no earth bonding.
OTOH, it's all copper pipework, so that helps.