HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

On 03/06/2018 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.


P.S. the original cold water tank was left in the loft when the boiler
was replaced with a combi boiler. The hot water cylinder went to the
scrap man though where I got £50 for it.....

I kept the plastic tank for my eventual rain water project as it would
give me extra storage capacity, but if direct pumpng from IBCs to
toilers and outside taps is an easier/cheaper solution then I can
consider that as there is already a pipe available from the IBC location
to the loft.

On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

You will need two float switches.
One in the ground level tank to shut the pump off when there's no water.(Opens as water level falls)
Plus on in the loft tank to shut the pump off when it's full. (opens as water level rises.)

ie they work in opposite senses.

They will be wired in series.
So the pump runs when both are closed.
ie bottom tank is full and top tank is empty.

Top tank will need an overflow capable of taking away full pump flow.

On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

And no you can't use a ballcock, that would leave the pump running.
As submersible pumps are water cooled, it would overheat and burn out.

In message ,
harry writes
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

And no you can't use a ballcock, that would leave the pump running.
As submersible pumps are water cooled, it would overheat and burn out.

Won't you need 3 pumps or arrange the IBCs to have balancing plumbing
at low level? In which case you could have an external pump.

--
Tim Lamb

Stephen wrote:

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

That "ball cock arrangement" would need to be a float switch as it
needs to turn the pump off rather than being a valve which stops the
flow.

--
Chris Green
·

On 04/06/2018 07:26, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

You will need two float switches.
One in the ground level tank to shut the pump off when there's no water.(Opens as water level falls)
Plus on in the loft tank to shut the pump off when it's full. (opens as water level rises.)

ie they work in opposite senses.

They will be wired in series.
So the pump runs when both are closed.
ie bottom tank is full and top tank is empty.

Or you could use a pump designed for the job, with back-pressure
detection that will turn the pump off when the ball-cock closes:

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/submers...ater-pump.html


Top tank will need an overflow capable of taking away full pump flow.

The overflow should be capable of taking away *more* than the full pump
flow. A rule of thumb is that the overflow pipe should be at least one
pipe size larger than the inlet pipe.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.


Rainwater at the back of my house is pumped by ordinary submersible
pumps from toolstation. I have used both Draper and Silverline and both
are marked something like 'not for permanent installations' but they in
fact seem to last many years,they are cheap, easy to replace and you
don't need a specific model.

I guess the second float switch in the loft would just over ride the pump.

TW

Stephen was thinking very hard :
Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can put
inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will sense when
the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock arrangement?

S.

No, a ballcock will only stop the flow, not stop the pump. You need a
float switch of some sort to switch the supply on and off to the pump.
One type I often used in commercial (water industry) applications, used
two metal rods of different reach down to the water, with low voltage
across them switching a simple relay. When the longer rod lost contact
with the water, the pump was started, when water touched the shorter
rod, the pump was stopped. A third longer rod, provided an earth
/common connection.

Another way is a mercury float switch - like a rubber pear shaped
thing, with a mercury switch inside, which floats on water and a flex
out the top. Hanging, the contact is made, as soon as it begins to
float the contact is broken and pump stops.

On 03/06/2018 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

If you retain your existing ball valve you could use this.

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/s...e%20pumps.aspx

You would also need some form of float switch in your collection tanks
to make sure it doesn't run dry. These sort of pumps self prime (up to a
point) so can be placed remote from the outside tanks. However, they are
noisy and require a hefty 12V supply.

On 04/06/2018 09:03, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 07:26, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, StephenÂ* wrote:
HI



Or you could use a pump designed for the job, with back-pressure
detection that will turn the pump off when the ball-cock closes:

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/submers...ater-pump.html



Not cheap though. That's designed to go down a borehole and should be
well engineered for reliability. Basic submersibles are ~£50 or less but
you would have to switch the power from the loft. Might be worth looking
at low voltage systems as used for garden ponds and/or Koi Carp.

---
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On 04/06/2018 12:15, newshound wrote:
On 04/06/2018 09:03, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 07:26, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, StephenÂ* wrote:
HI



Or you could use a pump designed for the job, with back-pressure
detection that will turn the pump off when the ball-cock closes:

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/submers...ater-pump.html



Not cheap though. That's designed to go down a borehole and should be
well engineered for reliability. Basic submersibles are ~£50 or less but
you would have to switch the power from the loft. Might be worth looking
at low voltage systems as used for garden ponds and/or Koi Carp.

In the long term, buying a good, reliable unit that needs little or no
maintenance and no external parts to go wrong would probably prove to be
the best value for money.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On 04/06/2018 11:06, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Stephen was thinking very hard :
Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I
can put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and
will sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

No, a ballcock will only stop the flow, not stop the pump. You need a
float switch of some sort to switch the supply on and off to the pump.
One type I often used in commercial (water industry) applications, used
two metal rods of different reach down to the water, with low voltage
across them switching a simple relay. When the longer rod lost contact
with the water, the pump was started, when water touched the shorter
rod, the pump was stopped. A third longer rod, provided an earth /common
connection.

Another way is a mercury float switch - like a rubber pear shaped thing,
with a mercury switch inside, which floats on water and a flex out the
top. Hanging, the contact is made, as soon as it begins to float the
contact is broken and pump stops.

There is also the "flow sensor" type as found typically on shower pumps.
Obviously, these need a positive head on the inlet, even the cheap ones
should provide a bar or so which will push the water up about 30 feet.
Shower pumps are not normally meant for outdoor installation.

The more expensive Clarke pumps from machine mart have a pressure sensor
to switch them off, so these could be "wired in" at ground level.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/051016200/

---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Also presumably in a drought situation the mains needs to be able to fill
the loft tank presumably. Also do not underestimate the crud you will end up
with along the way, so you need filters and ability to remove and clean them
and possibly the tanks as well.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"harry" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

You will need two float switches.
One in the ground level tank to shut the pump off when there's no
water.(Opens as water level falls)
Plus on in the loft tank to shut the pump off when it's full. (opens as
water level rises.)

ie they work in opposite senses.

They will be wired in series.
So the pump runs when both are closed.
ie bottom tank is full and top tank is empty.

Top tank will need an overflow capable of taking away full pump flow.

Fredxx has brought this to us :
If you retain your existing ball valve you could use this.

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/s...e%20pumps.aspx

You would also need some form of float switch in your collection tanks to
make sure it doesn't run dry. These sort of pumps self prime (up to a point)
so can be placed remote from the outside tanks. However, they are noisy and
require a hefty 12V supply.

Those are intended for caravans and boats. We are away in the tourer
caravan at the moment and it uses a pressure switch and small
submersible pump outside in the barrel to pump, with a none return
valve to hold the pressure/ stop it draining back down. The pressure
switch is adjustable for the operating pressure. One thing which
concerned me was that the pump is near silent in operation - so if the
water ran out, no pressure meant it would just run continuously. At
least until someone noticed. I added a piezo sounder, so everytime the
pump ran, the piezo sounded. Annoying, but no chance of it running with
no water. Another way would be a timer circuit, to limit the run time
to a sensible value..

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Those are intended for caravans and boats. We are away in the tourer
caravan at the moment and it uses a pressure switch and small
submersible pump outside in the barrel to pump, with a none return
valve to hold the pressure/ stop it draining back down. The pressure
switch is adjustable for the operating pressure. One thing which
concerned me was that the pump is near silent in operation - so if the
water ran out, no pressure meant it would just run continuously. At
least until someone noticed. I added a piezo sounder, so everytime the
pump ran, the piezo sounded. Annoying, but no chance of it running with
no water. Another way would be a timer circuit, to limit the run time
to a sensible value..

I also fitted a sounder - the smallest I could find, and muffled
slightly too.

At a price, you can now get more intelligent pump controllers:

https://www.whalepumps.com/rv/product.aspx?Category_ID=10005&Product_ID=31&Frien dlyID=A-NEW-INNOVATION-Watermaster-IC-Pump-Controller

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 04/06/2018 13:22, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jun 2018 12:20:26 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

On 04/06/2018 12:15, newshound wrote:
On 04/06/2018 09:03, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 07:26, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, StephenÂ* wrote:
HI



Or you could use a pump designed for the job, with back-pressure
detection that will turn the pump off when the ball-cock closes:

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/submers...ch-rain-water-
pump.html



Not cheap though. That's designed to go down a borehole and should be
well engineered for reliability. Basic submersibles are ~£50 or less
but you would have to switch the power from the loft. Might be worth
looking at low voltage systems as used for garden ponds and/or Koi
Carp.

In the long term, buying a good, reliable unit that needs little or no
maintenance and no external parts to go wrong would probably prove to be
the best value for money.

If such a thing exists. Experience tends to suggest that actually buying
some cheap functional units - and replacing as and when - is just as cost
-effective.

Does that include a realistic costing of your time replacing them?

In any case, even going down the cheap pump route, I would think that a
pressure switch in the outlet line would be the simplest option.

Don't get me wrong. I'm quite happy to pay a premium for something which
can demonstrate it's value. But there's a lot of second-rate stuff there
- from "big names" that is pretty poor quality.

Tools especially seem to fall into this category.

Not a problem I have had, but then I have generally been willing to pay
for quality and have always bought from industrial suppliers. Of course,
that does mean I have no recent experience of buying tools.



--
--

Colin Bignell

On 03/06/2018 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

Be sure to put a mesh filter over the intake or you will end up with
mosquito larvae everywhere. They jammed my drip feeders in the first
iteration of my greenhouse watering system from a large rainwater sump.

Depends how much water it will need to pump and for how long.

I got a fairly powerful 12v thing intended for a pond fountain second
hand and altered it to do what I needed which was a short burst of high
pressure irrigation morning and evening. Koi pond pumps also do it.

Submersible pumps are using the water they pump to asist with cooling.
Make sure you design it so that it fails safe. Pump switches off if no
water to pump and overflow can cope with anything the pump can deliver.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a potable
mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the external tap:
"Rainwater - not for drinking".

--

Jeff

On 04/06/2018 19:16, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a potable
mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the external tap:
"Rainwater - not for drinking".


I would not expect every tap to supply potable water. The law only
requires that there is one tap connected to the mains. In a domestic
premises that should be the cold tap over the kitchen sink. All others
should be treated as likely to be fed from a cistern, unless you
definitely know to the contrary.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 19:46:13 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a
potable
mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the external
tap:
"Rainwater - not for drinking".

I would not expect every tap to supply potable water. The law only
requires that there is one tap connected to the mains. In a domestic
premises that should be the cold tap over the kitchen sink. All others
should be treated as likely to be fed from a cistern, unless you
definitely know to the contrary.

Until a few years ago *none* of the taps here where on the mains, the
mains only went to 3 x 50 gallon storeage tanks in one loft. A few
years ago some of the hot taps went onto the mains. A couple of
months ago some of the cold joined them.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 04/06/2018 17:30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/06/2018 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which
all go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a
mains water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I
can put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and
will sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

Be sure to put a mesh filter over the intake or you will end up with
mosquito larvae everywhere. They jammed my drip feeders in the first
iteration of my greenhouse watering system from a large rainwater sump.

I use IBCs to harvest rainwater off a stable roof to supply water
manually to the horses. I don't have a problem with larvae, but I *do*
use the floating "chlorine dosing" thingies what you can use in garden
pools to suppress the level of algae.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Intex-290...8AAOSwstJZXg3H

I assume that this is what deals with the larvae too.

At another livery yard where I ride, they have a large open water
container of a couple of thousand litres which is fed either from towns
mains or from a local bore hole (not sure which). They keep a handfull
of goldfish in this, which deals very effectively indeed with the larvae
(although it does get fairly "green").

---
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On 04/06/2018 07:44, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
harry writes
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, StephenÂ* wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

And no you can't use a ballcock, that would leave the pump running.
As submersible pumps are water cooled, it would overheat and burn out.

Won't you need 3 pumps or arrange the IBCs to have balancing plumbing at
low level? In which case you could have an external pump.


I am using 10 IBCs, 5 vertical stacks of two if that makes sense.

The upper level of tanks will be connected to its tank below. So the
idea being with 10 off 600 littre IBC's I can store up to 6000 litres of
water.

The bottom 5 tanks will be connected via a "bus bar" pipe so to speak
and tank breathers fitted to all 10 IBCs.

SO I can either use a submersible pump in one of the bottom tanks or use
an external pump connected to the "bus bar" pipe.

On 04/06/2018 09:03, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 07:26, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, StephenÂ* wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

You will need two float switches.
One in the ground level tank to shut the pump off when there's no
water.(Opens as water level falls)
Plus on in the loft tank to shut the pump off when it's full. (opens
as water level rises.)

ie they work in opposite senses.

They will be wired in series.
So the pump runs when both are closed.
ie bottom tank is full and top tank is empty.

Or you could use a pump designed for the job, with back-pressure
detection that will turn the pump off when the ball-cock closes:

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/submers...ater-pump.html



Top tank will need an overflow capable of taking away full pump flow.

The overflow should be capable of taking away *more* than the full pump
flow. A rule of thumb is that the overflow pipe should be at least one
pipe size larger than the inlet pipe.


Well, Although I do still have a 250 litre plastic tank in the loft
which is currently empty, It seems a shame to cut it up rather than use
it as part of my rainwater harvesting system.

So I have two choices, either connect the house toilets and outside taps
to the loft tank or connect directly via a pumped feed from the IBCs.

The only advantage I can see in usign a loft tank is that water will
still be available to the toilets during a power cut. The disadvantage I
can see is the risk of the loft tank freezing & bursting in deepest winter.

On 04/06/2018 17:30, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/06/2018 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which
all go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a
mains water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I
can put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and
will sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

Be sure to put a mesh filter over the intake or you will end up with
mosquito larvae everywhere. They jammed my drip feeders in the first
iteration of my greenhouse watering system from a large rainwater sump.

Depends how much water it will need to pump and for how long.

I got a fairly powerful 12v thing intended for a pond fountain second
hand and altered it to do what I needed which was a short burst of high
pressure irrigation morning and evening. Koi pond pumps also do it.

Submersible pumps are using the water they pump to asist with cooling.
Make sure you design it so that it fails safe. Pump switches off if no
water to pump and overflow can cope with anything the pump can deliver.


Thank you for that, that is worth knowing.

How small does the mesh size have to be to prevent mosquitoe larvae from
entering?

On 04/06/2018 19:16, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a potable
mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the external tap:
"Rainwater - not for drinking".


Ditto the pipework....

ALl my potable cold water and hot water pipes are all in copper.

I did the rain water pipework in white plastic so its clear whats inside
the pipes when floorboards are lifted

On 04/06/2018 09:03, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 07:26, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, StephenÂ* wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

You will need two float switches.
One in the ground level tank to shut the pump off when there's no
water.(Opens as water level falls)
Plus on in the loft tank to shut the pump off when it's full. (opens
as water level rises.)

ie they work in opposite senses.

They will be wired in series.
So the pump runs when both are closed.
ie bottom tank is full and top tank is empty.

Or you could use a pump designed for the job, with back-pressure
detection that will turn the pump off when the ball-cock closes:

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/submers...ater-pump.html



Top tank will need an overflow capable of taking away full pump flow.

The overflow should be capable of taking away *more* than the full pump
flow. A rule of thumb is that the overflow pipe should be at least one
pipe size larger than the inlet pipe.

Or have a high-level switch to shut the pump off and a separate
high-high-level switch to shut off the pump, lock it out and raise an
alarm in case the high-level one fails.

That's what I'd do if I were planning such a system (I have thought
about it a few times).

SteveW

On 03/06/2018 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.



In case this is useful...

With our extension I also had a 9m3 underground rainwater tank put under
a new patio in front of the house. A large submersible pump feeds into
the loft via pipework passing through standard 100m drainpiping also
carrying the cables.

The pump runs automatically on back pressure and I have pipework going
around the garden and to top up the ponds etc.

In the loft the water feeds into a header tank for the three toilets in
the house. It was recommended to me *not* to use a ball-cock valve as
these can dribble, switch on and off very slowly, and generally not be
good for the pump.

It's better to have something which switches cleanly.

So, what I did was to use a solenoid valve and a simple relay circuit of
my own design to control the valve using a couple of float switches in
the header tank for the high/low levels.

There *is* also a ball-cock valve but this is positioned such that it
only closes when the header tank is about to overflow and is well above
the float switch level - this is in case the float switch or my
electronics goes wrong and the pump keeps topping up the header when it
shouldn't. Normally the ball-cock valve is fully open and therefore
"clean" running.

What's more, I also rigged up a *second* input into the header tank so
that mains water would feed into it.

There is a third float switch just below the low-level switch such that
if the water goes below that level it must mean that the rainwater pump
is not topping up the header tank. When this happens the electronics
switches on the second solenoid valve to top-up using mains water (until
the upper float switch level is reached). Therefore there can be no
interruption to toilet water if it doesn't rain.

Double belt and braces.

Michael

On 04/06/18 19:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 19:16, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a potable
mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the external tap:
"Rainwater - not for drinking".


I would not expect every tap to supply potable water. The law only
requires that there is one tap connected to the mains. In a domestic
premises that should be the cold tap over the kitchen sink. All others
should be treated as likely to be fed from a cistern, unless you
definitely know to the contrary.

Yes, but the original source of the water in the cold-water tank would
have been treated mains water. I know all sorts of horrors can be found
in loft tanks which aren't covered (many years ago I lived in a block of
flats where pigeon feathers suddenly appeared in the tap water!), but
most people don't know they should really not use bathroom basin tap
water for cleaning their teeth, or they ignore it. Rainwater would have
far more nasties than anything from a loft.

In any case, I have never seen an outside tap which ran from anything
other than mains water, as the pressure from a local tank would be too
low for most hoses.

--

Jeff

On 04/06/18 21:22, Stephen wrote:
On 04/06/2018 19:16, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a potable
mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the external tap:
"Rainwater - not for drinking".


Ditto the pipework....

ALl my potable cold water and hot water pipes are all in copper.

I did the rain water pipework in white plastic so its clear whats inside
the pipes when floorboards are lifted

Some friends of mine used to live in a farmhouse in West Wales, and
their water came from a well. It came to the house via copper pipes, and
there were blue stains under the taps on the porcelain sinks!

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:

most people don't know they should really not use bathroom basin tap
water for cleaning their teeth, or they ignore it.

Isn't it more the case that the bathroom basin tap should be fed
from the rising main?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 05/06/2018 08:20, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

most people don't know they should really not use bathroom basin tap
water for cleaning their teeth, or they ignore it.

Isn't it more the case that the bathroom basin tap should be fed
from the rising main?

It is only required that one tap be connected to the mains, which should
normally be in the kitchen. Connecting the bathroom basin tap to the
mains is recommended, but not required.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On 04/06/2018 21:22, Stephen wrote:
On 04/06/2018 19:16, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a
potable mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the
external tap: "Rainwater - not for drinking".


Ditto the pipework....

ALl my potable cold water and hot water pipes are all in copper.

I did the rain water pipework in white plastic so its clear whats inside
the pipes when floorboards are lifted

White plastic pipe is intended for domestic waste water, so most people
would assume it to be empty unless something was actively running to
waste. Grey BS 3050 pipe would be a better choice as being something not
normally found in domestic installations. Also, if the water is being
pumped. BS 3505 pipe is pressure rated, while white waste pipe is not.

Alternatively, you could apply British Standard identifying colours
along the length of the pipes, to show what is in them. For drinking
water, the colours are three equal width bands of green, blue and green
respectively. For rainwater, the two outer green bands remain, but the
blue one is replaced by three equal width bands of grey, black and grey.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 04/06/2018 21:17, Stephen wrote:
On 04/06/2018 09:03, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 07:26, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 3 June 2018 22:11:31 UTC+1, StephenÂ* wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which
all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

S.

You will need two float switches.
One in the ground level tank to shut the pump off when there's no
water.(Opens as water level falls)
Plus on in the loft tank to shut the pump off when it's full. (opens
as water level rises.)

ie they work in opposite senses.

They will be wired in series.
So the pump runs when both are closed.
ie bottom tank is full and top tank is empty.

Or you could use a pump designed for the job, with back-pressure
detection that will turn the pump off when the ball-cock closes:

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/submers...ater-pump.html



Top tank will need an overflow capable of taking away full pump flow.

The overflow should be capable of taking away *more* than the full
pump flow. A rule of thumb is that the overflow pipe should be at
least one pipe size larger than the inlet pipe.


Well, Although I do still have a 250 litre plastic tank in the loft
which is currently empty, It seems a shame to cut it up rather than use
it as part of my rainwater harvesting system.

So I have two choices, either connect the house toilets and outside taps
to the loft tank or connect directly via a pumped feed from the IBCs.

The only advantage I can see in usign a loft tank is that water will
still be available to the toilets during a power cut.

It would also allow you to have an alternative mains feed to that
cistern that you could turn on, so that you could continue to use the
toilets when you didn't have enough rainwater.

The disadvantage I
can see is the risk of the loft tank freezing & bursting in deepest winter.
That is why a cistern in the loft should be well insulated on top and
sides and without insulation under it.

--
--

Colin Bignell

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 05/06/2018 08:20, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

most people don't know they should really not use bathroom basin tap
water for cleaning their teeth, or they ignore it.

Isn't it more the case that the bathroom basin tap should be fed
from the rising main?

It is only required that one tap be connected to the mains, which should
normally be in the kitchen. Connecting the bathroom basin tap to the
mains is recommended, but not required.

Out predecessors in this house fitted an outside tap to the tank water !!!

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 05/06/2018 07:51, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 04/06/18 19:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 19:16, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which
all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a potable
mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the external tap:
"Rainwater - not for drinking".


I would not expect every tap to supply potable water. The law only
requires that there is one tap connected to the mains. In a domestic
premises that should be the cold tap over the kitchen sink. All others
should be treated as likely to be fed from a cistern, unless you
definitely know to the contrary.

Yes, but the original source of the water in the cold-water tank would
have been treated mains water.

It ceases to be potable water as soon as it is stored.

I know all sorts of horrors can be found
in loft tanks which aren't covered (many years ago I lived in a block of
flats where pigeon feathers suddenly appeared in the tap water!),

My business is supplying screens for overflow pipes, to prevent the less
obvious problem of insects flying up them and carrying infection into
the water supply. That is an important vector in the spread of
Legionnaires disease, for example.

but
most people don't know they should really not use bathroom basin tap
water for cleaning their teeth, or they ignore it. Rainwater would have
far more nasties than anything from a loft.

That depends very much upon how it has been handled. Raw rainwater is
likely to contain a lot of rubbish. A system that rejects the first run
off from a dry catchment area and passes the rest of the water through a
series of settlement tanks and filters, should produce fairly clean water.

In any case, I have never seen an outside tap which ran from anything
other than mains water, as the pressure from a local tank would be too
low for most hoses.

It probably wouldn't work a sprinkler, but I happily run a seeper hose
off a rainwater butt. It just takes longer than if it were connected to
the mains.


--
--

Colin Bignell

Nightjar posted

My business is supplying screens for overflow pipes, to prevent the
less obvious problem of insects flying up them and carrying infection
into the water supply. That is an important vector in the spread of
Legionnaires disease, for example.

How many times has that happened in a domestic context in the UK?


--
Jack

On Monday, 4 June 2018 21:17:30 UTC+1, Stephen wrote:

The only advantage I can see in usign a loft tank is that water will
still be available to the toilets during a power cut. The disadvantage I
can see is the risk of the loft tank freezing & bursting in deepest winter.

is that a problem with an open top tank?


NT

On 05/06/2018 10:33, Handsome Jack wrote:
Nightjar posted

My business is supplying screens for overflow pipes, to prevent the
less obvious problem of insects flying up them and carrying infection
into the water supply. That is an important vector in the spread of
Legionnaires disease, for example.

How many times has that happened in a domestic context in the UK?

No idea, but obviously it is considered enough of a risk for the Water
Byelaws and their successors to have required for decades that domestic
water cisterns be insect proof.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 05/06/2018 09:30, Nightjar wrote:
On 04/06/2018 21:22, Stephen wrote:
On 04/06/2018 19:16, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/06/18 22:11, Stephen wrote:
HI

I soon will have several IBCs at ground level to collect rain water.

(I have new pipework in place for the toilets and outside taps which
all
go back to the loft, its currently connected in the loft to a mains
water pipe)

I have a cold water cistern in the loft which I can connect up to the
house toilets and the outside taps.

Now where can I find a good value for money submersible pump that I can
put inside the IBCs and pump the rain water to my loft tank, and will
sense when the loft tank is full? I presume I can use a ball cock
arrangement?

SOT...

As everyone expects that just about all taps are connected to a
potable mains water supply, I would suggest a clear notice on the
external tap: "Rainwater - not for drinking".


Ditto the pipework....

ALl my potable cold water and hot water pipes are all in copper.

I did the rain water pipework in white plastic so its clear whats
inside the pipes when floorboards are lifted

White plastic pipe is intended for domestic waste water, so most people
would assume it to be empty unless something was actively running to
waste. Grey BS 3050 pipe would be a better choice as being something not
normally found in domestic installations. Also, if the water is being
pumped. BS 3505 pipe is pressure rated, while white waste pipe is not.

Alternatively, you could apply British Standard identifying colours
along the length of the pipes, to show what is in them. For drinking
water, the colours are three equal width bands of green, blue and green
respectively. For rainwater, the two outer green bands remain, but the
blue one is replaced by three equal width bands of grey, black and grey.


The white plastic pipe I am using is NOT waste pipe but either JG Guest
PEX or FloPlast PEX in eiether 15mm or 22mm bore.

I'm not going to cut my joists that deep to accommodate 40mm waste pipe
and accommodate the required fall too! I'd weaken the joist too far.