Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?


--
Adam

On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Which make and model?

On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the
optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Which make and model?


http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/

the EMH100.

--
Adam

On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the
optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Which make and model?


http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/

the EMH100.

Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!

http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/

Interestingly, they're using the upper 'harmonised' tolerance limit of
the UK 240v supply specification to scare their marks into buying this
'Snake Oil Solution'.

As per any advertising 'blurb' they're careful not to make any definite
savings claims, using weasel words like "could" in place of "will". Also,
they've been careful with their choice of appliances to avoid anything
that automatically draws the same power regardless of mains voltage over
voltage ranges well in excess of the widest of mains supply tolerances
(no desktop PCs or laptops running off their charging brick) as well as
anything with a thermostat (other than for the dishwasher (full cycle)
where it's quite telling that this demonstrates the least savings).

It's been said that "Advertising" is the art of lying by omission. Boy,
do these *******s advertise through their teeth!

--
Johnny B Good

On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the
optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Which make and model?


http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/

the EMH100.

Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!

http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/

Interestingly, they're using the upper 'harmonised' tolerance limit of
the UK 240v supply specification to scare their marks into buying this
'Snake Oil Solution'.

As per any advertising 'blurb' they're careful not to make any definite
savings claims, using weasel words like "could" in place of "will". Also,
they've been careful with their choice of appliances to avoid anything
that automatically draws the same power regardless of mains voltage over
voltage ranges well in excess of the widest of mains supply tolerances
(no desktop PCs or laptops running off their charging brick) as well as
anything with a thermostat (other than for the dishwasher (full cycle)
where it's quite telling that this demonstrates the least savings).

It's been said that "Advertising" is the art of lying by omission. Boy,
do these *******s advertise through their teeth!



Oddly enough they also had input into this

http://gwenergy.co.uk/wp-content/upl...-GUIDE-GWE.pdf

--
Adam

On Sat, 05 May 2018 08:18:22 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the
optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Which make and model?


http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/

the EMH100.

Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!

http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/

Interestingly, they're using the upper 'harmonised' tolerance limit
of
the UK 240v supply specification to scare their marks into buying this
'Snake Oil Solution'.

As per any advertising 'blurb' they're careful not to make any
definite
savings claims, using weasel words like "could" in place of "will".
Also,
they've been careful with their choice of appliances to avoid anything
that automatically draws the same power regardless of mains voltage
over voltage ranges well in excess of the widest of mains supply
tolerances (no desktop PCs or laptops running off their charging brick)
as well as anything with a thermostat (other than for the dishwasher
(full cycle) where it's quite telling that this demonstrates the least
savings).

It's been said that "Advertising" is the art of lying by omission.
Boy,
do these *******s advertise through their teeth!



Oddly enough they also had input into this

http://gwenergy.co.uk/wp-content/upl...LTAGE-SYSTEMS-
GUIDE-GWE.pdf

As an exercise in the art of propaganda (aka, advertising) this is a
work of 'creative writing' even Joseph Goebbels would have been proud to
sign his name to.

--
Johnny B Good

On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the
optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Which make and model?


http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/

the EMH100.

Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!

http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/


Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving





--
Adam

ARW was thinking very hard :
Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes
and everything is hot and steamy.
Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving

I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the
voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the
internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste heat,
but...

To be honest, I was sceptical as well. Just what is the point. I mean if you
have a very touchy device, then some kind of transformer will sort it, and
actually most touchy devices seem to work quite adequately on the end of a
surge protector and mains filter socket bar from Maplin, with or without the
pretty window. :-)

Brian

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the
optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Which make and model?


http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/

the EMH100.

Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!

http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/


Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving





--
Adam

On Sat, 5 May 2018 08:31:09 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:


Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!

http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/


Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving

Their method of calculating any saving for their guarantee is
interesting :-

http://gwenergy.co.uk/eco-max-optimi...ngs-guarantee/

" in order to provide a formal savings guarantee we need the following
information.
12 months’ worth of electrical consumption data, in the form of:
Copies of electricity bills and half hourly metering data (if an half
hourly meter supply)
The sites voltage profile over a week, suitable data loggers are to be
installed
An accurate profile of the types of equipment used on site

Once accepted this information forms the basis of our calculations and
the savings guarantee so cannot be adjusted or disputed.
Measuring and quantifying the results of voltage optimisation can be
very difficult with dynamic loads. You cannot simply compare last
month’s bill without the optimiser, with this month’s bill with the
optimiser, as this does not take the variable into account. Generally
there are two methods for establishing the savings percentages:

The simplest option is for you to evaluate three month’s worth of
half hour data from before and after the installation of the ECO-MAX,
considering whether the site loading has changed. For example you may
have installed or removed equipment, changed your operating hours or
experienced an increase in production levels; even the weather or
other external influences may affect your electrical consumption. All
these need to be considered when assessing the savings.

Another method is to use a standard Measurement & Verification
Protocol, to perform “on-off” tests under comparable load conditions
and measure the differential in kW and/or kWh consumption between the
connected equipment when supplied via grid voltage and optimised
voltage respectively. Repeating this a number of times over a given
period will provide “snap shot” comparisons of consumption with and
without ECO-MAX. The average difference between the two figures is the
percentage reduction in energy consumption, which is used to
extrapolate the savings over a year. To measure the savings in this
way requires that you specify and implement in intelligent “i” version
ECO-MAX optimiser. These optimisers offer the facility to seamlessly
switch between optimised (saving) and grid voltages under load
conditions without interrupting the power to the connected equipment."

On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?


For a pure resistive load, the "power saving" will be the ratio of
the squares of the voltages, so it is fairly close to 10% for
those voltages.

Whether enough of the load is resistive and not constant power
(switch-mode) or thermostat controlled for this device to be
useful is another matter.

John

On 04/05/2018 16:02, wrote:
On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?


For a pure resistive load, the "power saving" will be the ratio of
the squares of the voltages, so it is fairly close to 10% for
those voltages.

Whether enough of the load is resistive and not constant power
(switch-mode) or thermostat controlled for this device to be
useful is another matter.

And bear in mind that the larger resistive loads may be things like
heaters, where there's no saving through reducing the power. The user
just has to wait longer for them to heat up.

Not quite snake oil, but probably vastly over-hyped.



John

On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:09:21 UTC+1, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 16:02, wrote:
On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?


For a pure resistive load, the "power saving" will be the ratio of
the squares of the voltages, so it is fairly close to 10% for
those voltages.

Whether enough of the load is resistive and not constant power
(switch-mode) or thermostat controlled for this device to be
useful is another matter.

And bear in mind that the larger resistive loads may be things like
heaters, where there's no saving through reducing the power. The user
just has to wait longer for them to heat up.

Not quite snake oil, but probably vastly over-hyped.

I think that is what happened here, someone who knows little heard thata 10% saving could be made on electricity so opted for this type of thing and perhaps that's why we only get 210-220V suppy.





John

I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"ARW" wrote in message
...
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?


--
Adam

Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
voltage on it.

It happens that GB formulated :
I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power

Yes, but then they would have to run for longer. At best, no advantage
at all.

GB wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill

I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
power.

Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer until the
thermostat kicks out again?

On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:54:06 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer

and so wear out more quickly?

Owain

On 04/05/2018 16:50, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will
save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads
will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output,
incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's
will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or
more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
power.

I think most fridges already do something of this sort. I doubt there
will be any overall saving.

But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
voltage on it.

Quite.

In article ,
GB writes:
On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

Yes, they were pretty much discredited when one of the
manufacturers tried to get them made mandatory in homes.

I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
voltage on it.

Fridge motors are already operating with barely enough torque
to start them. Reducing the voltage runs the risk of burning
them out with a locked rotor current. (They do have protection
against this, but eventually your luck may run out.)

More intelligent compressor controllers reduce the power once
started, but I'm not sure how widespread they are in domestic
fridges yet. At one point, there were plug-in modules which
did this for fridge/freezers, but I haven't seen them for years
now, which may mean they were worse than just a bad idea.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

More intelligent compressor controllers reduce the power once
started, but I'm not sure how widespread they are in domestic
fridges yet.

I think mine has a 1/8 hp compressor, and it seems to take ~90W when
running, so not much sign of anything being saved (mind you it's only A
rated not A+++++++++ or whatever rating they're up to now)

On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:50:12 UTC+1, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
voltage on it.

10%? Check out photonic induction's youtube vid overvolting kettles. ISTR he got one upto about 10kW.


NT

Now if it were a gadget to fool the electricity meter into thinking you were
not drawing as much power that is a whole other subject to do with power
factor and phase shifts.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please!
"GB" wrote in message
news
On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
voltage on it.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:27:35 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

But you forget the most important things, those suggesting such things and carrying them through get the adulation from all those that think money has been spent rather than wasted and it loks good on paper and anywhere else the real world doesn't get factored in.

That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school any
moor, or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines?

Brian

--
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The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

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"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw
more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be
needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

On Sat, 5 May 2018 09:20:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school any
moor, or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines?

When I was regularly running my electric car (from ~30 years ago now),
if you got into conversation with people about it (generally men) it
surprised me how many basically tried to suggest I could make use of
perpetual motion.

Anything from having a dynamo rubbing on a tyre to towing a dynamo
trailer to a wind turbine sticking out of the top.

Similar with running an electric boat and then 'having a paddle wheel
hanging out the side connected to a dynamo ...'?

All of these would have been ruled out in an instant if they had even
the most basic understanding of energy, energy transfer and
conservation.

Also the way the electrical energy was used is a factor. My EV was
only 48V and to move any conventional 4 seater vehicle through the air
and along the road (on the flat) at say 30mph would take quite a bit
of energy. I think my car was pulling something like 200A in those
circumstances and so the interconnecting cables had to be pretty big
(and therefore also heavy).

Cheers, T i m

Brian Gaff wrote

That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school
anymoor,

They don’t need to, now they can read it in a review instead.

or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines?

Corse you always could, even when they did teach this stuff in school.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

I suspect these devices are sold in the same manner as "fuelsavers" that were marketed some time ago. They used to introduce a delay between thermostat calling for heat and the burner starting.
The boiler water cooled a bit more which resulted in the burner having to run longer. Actual savings were in the mind of the purchaser.

On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?



Was it made by Russ Andrews ?

Been on here befo

€Žhttps://groups.google.com/forum/m/?h...-y/Y-HbgpR8lXA

Note second message in the thread!

On 04/05/2018 22:18, Part timer wrote:
Been on here befo

€Žhttps://groups.google.com/forum/m/?h...-y/Y-HbgpR8lXA

Note second message in the thread!


The VPhase I believe regulated the voltage to 220V. The one I fitted
today has no such mechanism. It basically is a tapped transformer that
gives 6, 8 or 10% voltage (or claims to) voltage drop.

--
Adam

In article ,
ARW wrote:
The VPhase I believe regulated the voltage to 220V. The one I fitted
today has no such mechanism. It basically is a tapped transformer that
gives 6, 8 or 10% voltage (or claims to) voltage drop.


We used to have an auto version of that device in TV studios in the '60s
to regulate tech mains. But could up the voltage as well as reduce it.

--
*Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 04 May 2018 15:46:37 +0100, ARW wrote:

Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?

That was a 6% drop. Perhaps the other 4% kicks in at maximum rated load
when leakage inductance and transformer winding resistance volt drop take
their toll?

It sounds to me like it's a basic, if BFO[1], autotransformer. It also
sounds like it's intended to be installed between the meter and CU to
reduce the whole house supply, presumably to compensate for a PSU line
voltage that's consistently on the high side of the nominal 240v used in
the UK.

If it included automatic voltage adjustment to compensate for variations
in supply voltage, it would make sense. If it's just an autotransformer,
prewired to provide a fixed 10% reduction as your post implies, it
doesn't make much sense since the proper solution is to complain to your
PSU about the overvoltage and arrange for them to adjust the supply back
to the nominal 240v.

However, 251v is within the +10% upper limit for a notional (harmonised)
230v supply upon which all domestic kit, excluding incandescent lamps, is
optimised. If the supply never exceeds 253vac using an accurate
voltmeter, then it's within tolerance and unless the supply regularly
exceeds this, quite frankly, I can't really see the point of inserting
such a BFO autotransformer between the meter and the CU.

If this has been installed in the mistaken belief that it will reduce
electrical consumption by household appliances, as almost everyone else
has pointed out, it won't. Indeed the additional losses, even if quite
tiny, will increase consumption negating any small gain made with
incandescent lamps which will become noticeably dimmer, yet at the same
time may last twice as long as normal (so, not all bad news if you don't
minder the dimmer look).

If the average line voltage is above nominal, the 10% reduction
shouldn't be a problem to white goods appliances which use electric
motors, especially if they're modern 'Harmonised' appliances. However,
too little voltage can cause motors to overheat and burn out, especially
during startup surges with compressor loads such as fridges and freezers
and, to a lesser extent, washing machine drum motors.

Kit that uses smpsus such as TV sets, desktop computers and the like,
will automatically draw exactly the same power, typically over a supply
voltage that ranges from a low of 186vac to a high of 265vac. Some of
this kit may, like universal mains voltage laptop chargers and other
battery chargers, function over the range of 90vac to the 265vac limit,
drawing pretty much an almost constant power level according to demand
from their electronic loads.

Most appliances that rely on heating elements for their function will
simply use a longer duty cycle controlled by a thermostat. So, again, no
net saving in energy consumption there. Even electric kettles will simply
take longer to boil before their anti-boil dry sensor conveniently
switches the kettle off as a kindness to the user. The more protracted
heating up time will allow a little more heat to escape increasing the
energy consumption slightly as it will in the case of every other
appliance that uses energy for heating.

In short, if this "Voltage Optimiser" has been sold to your customer on
the basis of reducing electrical consumption, then it has been sold as a
"Snake Oil Solution" to a non-existent problem.

[1] Assuming a 10% drop on a 250v 100A supply, you'd need a 2.5KVA rated
autotransformer which would weigh in, afaicr, at around 25 to 30Kg which
in a domestic installation is one Big **** Off autotransformer! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On 04/05/2018 23:34, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 15:46:37 +0100, ARW wrote:

Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?

That was a 6% drop. Perhaps the other 4% kicks in at maximum rated load
when leakage inductance and transformer winding resistance volt drop take
their toll?

It sounds to me like it's a basic, if BFO[1], autotransformer. It also
sounds like it's intended to be installed between the meter and CU to
reduce the whole house supply, presumably to compensate for a PSU line
voltage that's consistently on the high side of the nominal 240v used in
the UK.

If it included automatic voltage adjustment to compensate for variations
in supply voltage, it would make sense. If it's just an autotransformer,
prewired to provide a fixed 10% reduction as your post implies, it
doesn't make much sense since the proper solution is to complain to your
PSU about the overvoltage and arrange for them to adjust the supply back
to the nominal 240v.

However, 251v is within the +10% upper limit for a notional (harmonised)
230v supply upon which all domestic kit, excluding incandescent lamps, is
optimised. If the supply never exceeds 253vac using an accurate
voltmeter, then it's within tolerance and unless the supply regularly
exceeds this, quite frankly, I can't really see the point of inserting
such a BFO autotransformer between the meter and the CU.

If this has been installed in the mistaken belief that it will reduce
electrical consumption by household appliances, as almost everyone else
has pointed out, it won't. Indeed the additional losses, even if quite
tiny, will increase consumption negating any small gain made with
incandescent lamps which will become noticeably dimmer, yet at the same
time may last twice as long as normal (so, not all bad news if you don't
minder the dimmer look).

If the average line voltage is above nominal, the 10% reduction
shouldn't be a problem to white goods appliances which use electric
motors, especially if they're modern 'Harmonised' appliances. However,
too little voltage can cause motors to overheat and burn out, especially
during startup surges with compressor loads such as fridges and freezers
and, to a lesser extent, washing machine drum motors.

Kit that uses smpsus such as TV sets, desktop computers and the like,
will automatically draw exactly the same power, typically over a supply
voltage that ranges from a low of 186vac to a high of 265vac. Some of
this kit may, like universal mains voltage laptop chargers and other
battery chargers, function over the range of 90vac to the 265vac limit,
drawing pretty much an almost constant power level according to demand
from their electronic loads.

Most appliances that rely on heating elements for their function will
simply use a longer duty cycle controlled by a thermostat. So, again, no
net saving in energy consumption there. Even electric kettles will simply
take longer to boil before their anti-boil dry sensor conveniently
switches the kettle off as a kindness to the user. The more protracted
heating up time will allow a little more heat to escape increasing the
energy consumption slightly as it will in the case of every other
appliance that uses energy for heating.

In short, if this "Voltage Optimiser" has been sold to your customer on
the basis of reducing electrical consumption, then it has been sold as a
"Snake Oil Solution" to a non-existent problem.

[1] Assuming a 10% drop on a 250v 100A supply, you'd need a 2.5KVA rated
autotransformer which would weigh in, afaicr, at around 25 to 30Kg which
in a domestic installation is one Big **** Off autotransformer! :-)


The phone battery was dead or I would have taken photos.

Basically (my guess) it's just a toroidal with 3 tap offs. Not sure what
it weighed but it was impossible for me to hold it to the wall with one
hand to mark out the fixing holes.

I don't think that money is a problem for this customer and I doubt that
he is after a 10% electricity saving (brand new HSE Discovery for the
wife to take the kids to school etc [1]). He asked for it fitting, we do
not suggest them, that is probably why this is the first one I have ever
fitted.

My other guess is that he has read that it could make appliances last
longer and I know that he was aware that he has 250V to the house. I
tested it when his washing machine and iron blew up on the same day a
couple of months ago - although neither of them blowing up were related
to the incoming voltage.

[1] And a full set of brand new alloy wheels with winter tyres.


--
Adam

On 05/05/2018 00:10, ARW wrote:
On 04/05/2018 23:34, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 15:46:37 +0100, ARW wrote:

Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?

Â* That was a 6% drop. Perhaps the other 4% kicks in at maximum rated load
when leakage inductance and transformer winding resistance volt drop take
their toll?

Â* It sounds to me like it's a basic, if BFO[1], autotransformer. It also
sounds like it's intended to be installed between the meter and CU to
reduce the whole house supply, presumably to compensate for a PSU line
voltage that's consistently on the high side of the nominal 240v used in
the UK.

Â* If it included automatic voltage adjustment to compensate for
variations
in supply voltage, it would make sense. If it's just an autotransformer,
prewired to provide a fixed 10% reduction as your post implies, it
doesn't make much sense since the proper solution is to complain to your
PSU about the overvoltage and arrange for them to adjust the supply back
to the nominal 240v.

Â* However, 251v is within the +10% upper limit for a notional
(harmonised)
230v supply upon which all domestic kit, excluding incandescent lamps, is
optimised. If the supply never exceeds 253vac using an accurate
voltmeter, then it's within tolerance and unless the supply regularly
exceeds this, quite frankly, I can't really see the point of inserting
such a BFO autotransformer between the meter and the CU.

Â* If this has been installed in the mistaken belief that it will reduce
electrical consumption by household appliances, as almost everyone else
has pointed out, it won't. Indeed the additional losses, even if quite
tiny, will increase consumption negating any small gain made with
incandescent lamps which will become noticeably dimmer, yet at the same
time may last twice as long as normal (so, not all bad news if you don't
minder the dimmer look).

Â* If the average line voltage is above nominal, the 10% reduction
shouldn't be a problem to white goods appliances which use electric
motors, especially if they're modern 'Harmonised' appliances. However,
too little voltage can cause motors to overheat and burn out, especially
during startup surges with compressor loads such as fridges and freezers
and, to a lesser extent, washing machine drum motors.

Â* Kit that uses smpsus such as TV sets, desktop computers and the like,
will automatically draw exactly the same power, typically over a supply
voltage that ranges from a low of 186vac to a high of 265vac. Some of
this kit may, like universal mains voltage laptop chargers and other
battery chargers, function over the range of 90vac to the 265vac limit,
drawing pretty much an almost constant power level according to demand
from their electronic loads.

Â* Most appliances that rely on heating elements for their function will
simply use a longer duty cycle controlled by a thermostat. So, again, no
net saving in energy consumption there. Even electric kettles will simply
take longer to boil before their anti-boil dry sensor conveniently
switches the kettle off as a kindness to the user. The more protracted
heating up time will allow a little more heat to escape increasing the
energy consumption slightly as it will in the case of every other
appliance that uses energy for heating.

Â* In short, if this "Voltage Optimiser" has been sold to your customer on
the basis of reducing electrical consumption, then it has been sold as a
"Snake Oil Solution" to a non-existent problem.

[1] Assuming a 10% drop on a 250v 100A supply, you'd need a 2.5KVA rated
autotransformer which would weigh in, afaicr, at around 25 to 30Kg which
in a domestic installation is one Big **** Off autotransformer! :-)


The phone battery was dead or I would have taken photos.

Basically (my guess) it's just a toroidal with 3 tap offs. Not sure what
it weighed but it was impossible for me to hold it to the wall with one
hand to mark out the fixing holes.

Ya wuss, spec says 18kg!

On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?


--
Adam

I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by power factor correction.
Bollix of course.

On 05/05/2018 08:33, harry wrote:
On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?

I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by power factor correction.
Bollix of course.

Surely you want the opposite to correction. You could ensure that
everything is inductive in some way, like using heat pumps to heat
things - and they (magically) are a lot more than 100% efficient in any
case.

--
Max Demian

In article ,
harry writes:

I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by power factor correction.
Bollix of course.

Commercial users can be charged extra for low power factor and badly
balanced 3-phase loads. When I worked for GEC Computers in the 1980's
our computer room supply was charged at some favourable rate because
it was a pretty constant load (around 2MW IIRC), but it was charged
as though all phases were drawing the same load as the highest phase,
so you wanted the load well balanced. The computers were all single
phase, so it was important to distribute them carefully between
phases.

Domestic users in UK have to be charged based on energy used, and
can't be charged for low power factor or unbalanced 3-phase loads.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sat, 05 May 2018 18:02:11 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,
harry writes:

I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by
power factor correction.
Bollix of course.

Commercial users can be charged extra for low power factor and badly
balanced 3-phase loads. When I worked for GEC Computers in the 1980's
our computer room supply was charged at some favourable rate because it
was a pretty constant load (around 2MW IIRC), but it was charged as
though all phases were drawing the same load as the highest phase,
so you wanted the load well balanced. The computers were all single
phase, so it was important to distribute them carefully between phases.

Domestic users in UK have to be charged based on energy used, and can't
be charged for low power factor or unbalanced 3-phase loads.

Regulations on domestic appliances takes care of the low power factor
issue in domestic premises, allowing the PSU to only charge their
domestic customers for KWHs used without the complication of monitoring
and charging for excessive reactive current 'consumption'.

For example, magnetically ballasted fluorescent lamp fittings must
incorporate a PFC capacitor for lamps of 20W or more rating. The SL13 and
SL18 CFLs made by Philips Lighting some three(?) decades back did not
require a PFC capacitor to be fitted into these magnetically ballasted
CFLs since they fell below that 20W limit, even allowing for a +/-10%
margin of error in their 18W SL18 lamps.

It wasn't only the sheer mass of a larger magnetic ballast that a higher
wattage version would have entailed that limited those early CFLs to a
maximum of 18W, it was also the fact that the mandated PFC capacitor
would have added further bulk (and a modest further increase in mass) to
an already heavy and ugly looking lamp.

--
Johnny B Good