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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Voltage optimisers
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.
Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? -- Adam |
#2
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Voltage optimisers
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Which make and model? |
#3
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Voltage optimisers
On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? For a pure resistive load, the "power saving" will be the ratio of the squares of the voltages, so it is fairly close to 10% for those voltages. Whether enough of the load is resistive and not constant power (switch-mode) or thermostat controlled for this device to be useful is another matter. John |
#4
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Voltage optimisers
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?
Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "ARW" wrote in message ... Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? -- Adam |
#7
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Voltage optimisers
Brian Gaff explained :
I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. |
#8
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Voltage optimisers
On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained : I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10% voltage on it. |
#9
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Voltage optimisers
On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:27:35 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Gaff explained : I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. But you forget the most important things, those suggesting such things and carrying them through get the adulation from all those that think money has been spent rather than wasted and it loks good on paper and anywhere else the real world doesn't get factored in. |
#10
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Voltage optimisers
It happens that GB formulated :
I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power Yes, but then they would have to run for longer. At best, no advantage at all. |
#11
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Voltage optimisers
GB wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote: It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power. Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer until the thermostat kicks out again? |
#12
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Voltage optimisers
On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:54:06 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer and so wear out more quickly? Owain |
#13
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Voltage optimisers
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#14
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Voltage optimisers
On 04/05/2018 16:50, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Brian Gaff explained : I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power. I think most fridges already do something of this sort. I doubt there will be any overall saving. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10% voltage on it. Quite. |
#15
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Voltage optimisers
I suspect these devices are sold in the same manner as "fuelsavers" that were marketed some time ago. They used to introduce a delay between thermostat calling for heat and the burner starting.
The boiler water cooled a bit more which resulted in the burner having to run longer. Actual savings were in the mind of the purchaser. |
#16
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Voltage optimisers
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Was it made by Russ Andrews ? |
#17
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Voltage optimisers
Been on here befo
€Žhttps://groups.google.com/forum/m/?h...-y/Y-HbgpR8lXA Note second message in the thread! |
#18
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Voltage optimisers
On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote: Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Which make and model? http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/ the EMH100. -- Adam |
#19
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Voltage optimisers
In article ,
GB writes: On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Brian Gaff explained : I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. Yes, they were pretty much discredited when one of the manufacturers tried to get them made mandatory in homes. I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10% voltage on it. Fridge motors are already operating with barely enough torque to start them. Reducing the voltage runs the risk of burning them out with a locked rotor current. (They do have protection against this, but eventually your luck may run out.) More intelligent compressor controllers reduce the power once started, but I'm not sure how widespread they are in domestic fridges yet. At one point, there were plug-in modules which did this for fridge/freezers, but I haven't seen them for years now, which may mean they were worse than just a bad idea. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#20
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Voltage optimisers
On 04/05/2018 22:18, Part timer wrote:
Been on here befo €Žhttps://groups.google.com/forum/m/?h...-y/Y-HbgpR8lXA Note second message in the thread! The VPhase I believe regulated the voltage to 220V. The one I fitted today has no such mechanism. It basically is a tapped transformer that gives 6, 8 or 10% voltage (or claims to) voltage drop. -- Adam |
#21
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Voltage optimisers
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
More intelligent compressor controllers reduce the power once started, but I'm not sure how widespread they are in domestic fridges yet. I think mine has a 1/8 hp compressor, and it seems to take ~90W when running, so not much sign of anything being saved (mind you it's only A rated not A+++++++++ or whatever rating they're up to now) |
#22
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Voltage optimisers
On Fri, 04 May 2018 15:46:37 +0100, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? That was a 6% drop. Perhaps the other 4% kicks in at maximum rated load when leakage inductance and transformer winding resistance volt drop take their toll? It sounds to me like it's a basic, if BFO[1], autotransformer. It also sounds like it's intended to be installed between the meter and CU to reduce the whole house supply, presumably to compensate for a PSU line voltage that's consistently on the high side of the nominal 240v used in the UK. If it included automatic voltage adjustment to compensate for variations in supply voltage, it would make sense. If it's just an autotransformer, prewired to provide a fixed 10% reduction as your post implies, it doesn't make much sense since the proper solution is to complain to your PSU about the overvoltage and arrange for them to adjust the supply back to the nominal 240v. However, 251v is within the +10% upper limit for a notional (harmonised) 230v supply upon which all domestic kit, excluding incandescent lamps, is optimised. If the supply never exceeds 253vac using an accurate voltmeter, then it's within tolerance and unless the supply regularly exceeds this, quite frankly, I can't really see the point of inserting such a BFO autotransformer between the meter and the CU. If this has been installed in the mistaken belief that it will reduce electrical consumption by household appliances, as almost everyone else has pointed out, it won't. Indeed the additional losses, even if quite tiny, will increase consumption negating any small gain made with incandescent lamps which will become noticeably dimmer, yet at the same time may last twice as long as normal (so, not all bad news if you don't minder the dimmer look). If the average line voltage is above nominal, the 10% reduction shouldn't be a problem to white goods appliances which use electric motors, especially if they're modern 'Harmonised' appliances. However, too little voltage can cause motors to overheat and burn out, especially during startup surges with compressor loads such as fridges and freezers and, to a lesser extent, washing machine drum motors. Kit that uses smpsus such as TV sets, desktop computers and the like, will automatically draw exactly the same power, typically over a supply voltage that ranges from a low of 186vac to a high of 265vac. Some of this kit may, like universal mains voltage laptop chargers and other battery chargers, function over the range of 90vac to the 265vac limit, drawing pretty much an almost constant power level according to demand from their electronic loads. Most appliances that rely on heating elements for their function will simply use a longer duty cycle controlled by a thermostat. So, again, no net saving in energy consumption there. Even electric kettles will simply take longer to boil before their anti-boil dry sensor conveniently switches the kettle off as a kindness to the user. The more protracted heating up time will allow a little more heat to escape increasing the energy consumption slightly as it will in the case of every other appliance that uses energy for heating. In short, if this "Voltage Optimiser" has been sold to your customer on the basis of reducing electrical consumption, then it has been sold as a "Snake Oil Solution" to a non-existent problem. [1] Assuming a 10% drop on a 250v 100A supply, you'd need a 2.5KVA rated autotransformer which would weigh in, afaicr, at around 25 to 30Kg which in a domestic installation is one Big **** Off autotransformer! :-) -- Johnny B Good |
#23
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Voltage optimisers
On 04/05/2018 23:34, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 15:46:37 +0100, ARW wrote: Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? That was a 6% drop. Perhaps the other 4% kicks in at maximum rated load when leakage inductance and transformer winding resistance volt drop take their toll? It sounds to me like it's a basic, if BFO[1], autotransformer. It also sounds like it's intended to be installed between the meter and CU to reduce the whole house supply, presumably to compensate for a PSU line voltage that's consistently on the high side of the nominal 240v used in the UK. If it included automatic voltage adjustment to compensate for variations in supply voltage, it would make sense. If it's just an autotransformer, prewired to provide a fixed 10% reduction as your post implies, it doesn't make much sense since the proper solution is to complain to your PSU about the overvoltage and arrange for them to adjust the supply back to the nominal 240v. However, 251v is within the +10% upper limit for a notional (harmonised) 230v supply upon which all domestic kit, excluding incandescent lamps, is optimised. If the supply never exceeds 253vac using an accurate voltmeter, then it's within tolerance and unless the supply regularly exceeds this, quite frankly, I can't really see the point of inserting such a BFO autotransformer between the meter and the CU. If this has been installed in the mistaken belief that it will reduce electrical consumption by household appliances, as almost everyone else has pointed out, it won't. Indeed the additional losses, even if quite tiny, will increase consumption negating any small gain made with incandescent lamps which will become noticeably dimmer, yet at the same time may last twice as long as normal (so, not all bad news if you don't minder the dimmer look). If the average line voltage is above nominal, the 10% reduction shouldn't be a problem to white goods appliances which use electric motors, especially if they're modern 'Harmonised' appliances. However, too little voltage can cause motors to overheat and burn out, especially during startup surges with compressor loads such as fridges and freezers and, to a lesser extent, washing machine drum motors. Kit that uses smpsus such as TV sets, desktop computers and the like, will automatically draw exactly the same power, typically over a supply voltage that ranges from a low of 186vac to a high of 265vac. Some of this kit may, like universal mains voltage laptop chargers and other battery chargers, function over the range of 90vac to the 265vac limit, drawing pretty much an almost constant power level according to demand from their electronic loads. Most appliances that rely on heating elements for their function will simply use a longer duty cycle controlled by a thermostat. So, again, no net saving in energy consumption there. Even electric kettles will simply take longer to boil before their anti-boil dry sensor conveniently switches the kettle off as a kindness to the user. The more protracted heating up time will allow a little more heat to escape increasing the energy consumption slightly as it will in the case of every other appliance that uses energy for heating. In short, if this "Voltage Optimiser" has been sold to your customer on the basis of reducing electrical consumption, then it has been sold as a "Snake Oil Solution" to a non-existent problem. [1] Assuming a 10% drop on a 250v 100A supply, you'd need a 2.5KVA rated autotransformer which would weigh in, afaicr, at around 25 to 30Kg which in a domestic installation is one Big **** Off autotransformer! :-) The phone battery was dead or I would have taken photos. Basically (my guess) it's just a toroidal with 3 tap offs. Not sure what it weighed but it was impossible for me to hold it to the wall with one hand to mark out the fixing holes. I don't think that money is a problem for this customer and I doubt that he is after a 10% electricity saving (brand new HSE Discovery for the wife to take the kids to school etc [1]). He asked for it fitting, we do not suggest them, that is probably why this is the first one I have ever fitted. My other guess is that he has read that it could make appliances last longer and I know that he was aware that he has 250V to the house. I tested it when his washing machine and iron blew up on the same day a couple of months ago - although neither of them blowing up were related to the incoming voltage. [1] And a full set of brand new alloy wheels with winter tyres. -- Adam |
#24
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Voltage optimisers
On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:50:12 UTC+1, GB wrote:
On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Brian Gaff explained : I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10% voltage on it. 10%? Check out photonic induction's youtube vid overvolting kettles. ISTR he got one upto about 10kW. NT |
#25
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Voltage optimisers
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:
On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote: Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Which make and model? http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/ the EMH100. Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame! http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/ Interestingly, they're using the upper 'harmonised' tolerance limit of the UK 240v supply specification to scare their marks into buying this 'Snake Oil Solution'. As per any advertising 'blurb' they're careful not to make any definite savings claims, using weasel words like "could" in place of "will". Also, they've been careful with their choice of appliances to avoid anything that automatically draws the same power regardless of mains voltage over voltage ranges well in excess of the widest of mains supply tolerances (no desktop PCs or laptops running off their charging brick) as well as anything with a thermostat (other than for the dishwasher (full cycle) where it's quite telling that this demonstrates the least savings). It's been said that "Advertising" is the art of lying by omission. Boy, do these *******s advertise through their teeth! -- Johnny B Good |
#26
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Voltage optimisers
On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote: Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Which make and model? http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/ the EMH100. Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame! http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/ Interestingly, they're using the upper 'harmonised' tolerance limit of the UK 240v supply specification to scare their marks into buying this 'Snake Oil Solution'. As per any advertising 'blurb' they're careful not to make any definite savings claims, using weasel words like "could" in place of "will". Also, they've been careful with their choice of appliances to avoid anything that automatically draws the same power regardless of mains voltage over voltage ranges well in excess of the widest of mains supply tolerances (no desktop PCs or laptops running off their charging brick) as well as anything with a thermostat (other than for the dishwasher (full cycle) where it's quite telling that this demonstrates the least savings). It's been said that "Advertising" is the art of lying by omission. Boy, do these *******s advertise through their teeth! Oddly enough they also had input into this http://gwenergy.co.uk/wp-content/upl...-GUIDE-GWE.pdf -- Adam |
#27
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Voltage optimisers
On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote: Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Which make and model? http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/ the EMH100. Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame! http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/ Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W? Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair? Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-) Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes and everything is hot and steamy. Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving -- Adam |
#28
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Voltage optimisers
On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? -- Adam I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by power factor correction. Bollix of course. |
#29
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Voltage optimisers
ARW was thinking very hard :
Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W? Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair? Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-) Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes and everything is hot and steamy. Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste heat, but... |
#30
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Voltage optimisers
To be honest, I was sceptical as well. Just what is the point. I mean if you
have a very touchy device, then some kind of transformer will sort it, and actually most touchy devices seem to work quite adequately on the end of a surge protector and mains filter socket bar from Maplin, with or without the pretty window. :-) Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "ARW" wrote in message ... On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote: On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote: Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Which make and model? http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/ the EMH100. Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame! http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/ Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W? Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair? Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-) Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes and everything is hot and steamy. Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving -- Adam |
#31
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Voltage optimisers
That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school any
moor, or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines? Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message news Brian Gaff explained : I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. |
#32
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Voltage optimisers
On 05/05/2018 08:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW was thinking very hard : Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W? Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair? Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-) Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes and everything is hot and steamy. Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste heat, but... Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on resistive loads. -- Adam |
#33
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Voltage optimisers
Now if it were a gadget to fool the electricity meter into thinking you were
not drawing as much power that is a whole other subject to do with power factor and phase shifts. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "GB" wrote in message news On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Brian Gaff explained : I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here? It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights will be needed to make up for the darkness. The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced. I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10% voltage on it. |
#34
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Voltage optimisers
On 05/05/18 08:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW was thinking very hard : Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W? Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair? Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-) Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes and everything is hot and steamy. Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste heat, but... Plus where you have a relatively fixed voltage drop - like a bridge rectifier in an SMPSU, the losses will increase: more current through that bridge for smaller power output. All in all it is complete ******** - only thing that will mayybe impriove is incandescmet bulb life - who uses those? And the transformer itself is probably only 95% eff... -- €œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an hypothesis!€ Mary Wollstonecraft |
#35
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Voltage optimisers
ARW has brought this to us :
Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on resistive loads. True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads. |
#36
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Voltage optimisers
On 05/05/18 09:20, ARW wrote:
On 05/05/2018 08:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote: ARW was thinking very hard : Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W? Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair? Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-) Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes and everything is hot and steamy. Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste heat, but... Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on resistive loads. Thats not what he said If you need to draw the same power at lower voltage, you will draw more current. That will mean extra losses in the wiring. The key is the 'same power' Many things will automatically compensate for a lower voltahege by drawing more current. All SMPSUS for a start. Some regulated motors. - a synchronous motor will draw what it has to to match the load at synchronous output speed. -- No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post. |
#37
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Voltage optimisers
On 05/05/18 09:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW has brought this to us : Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on resistive loads. True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads. i.e anything with explicit or implicit feedback to stabilise the outpout power levels -- "If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the news paper, you are mis-informed." Mark Twain |
#38
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Voltage optimisers
On 05/05/2018 09:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW has brought this to us : Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on resistive loads. True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads. I would say that the resistive loads are the ones that use the most power. So hair driers, cookers, kettles, immersion heaters etc. I only fitted the thing because the customer wanted it. I am happy with my 253V supply:-) -- Adam |
#39
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Voltage optimisers
On Sat, 5 May 2018 09:20:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote: That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school any moor, or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines? When I was regularly running my electric car (from ~30 years ago now), if you got into conversation with people about it (generally men) it surprised me how many basically tried to suggest I could make use of perpetual motion. Anything from having a dynamo rubbing on a tyre to towing a dynamo trailer to a wind turbine sticking out of the top. Similar with running an electric boat and then 'having a paddle wheel hanging out the side connected to a dynamo ...'? All of these would have been ruled out in an instant if they had even the most basic understanding of energy, energy transfer and conservation. Also the way the electrical energy was used is a factor. My EV was only 48V and to move any conventional 4 seater vehicle through the air and along the road (on the flat) at say 30mph would take quite a bit of energy. I think my car was pulling something like 200A in those circumstances and so the interconnecting cables had to be pretty big (and therefore also heavy). Cheers, T i m |
#40
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Voltage optimisers
On Sat, 05 May 2018 08:18:22 +0100, ARW wrote:
On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote: On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote: On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote: Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser. Not much to it but I am puzzled. I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V. So where does the 10% come into this? Which make and model? http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/ the EMH100. Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame! http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/ Interestingly, they're using the upper 'harmonised' tolerance limit of the UK 240v supply specification to scare their marks into buying this 'Snake Oil Solution'. As per any advertising 'blurb' they're careful not to make any definite savings claims, using weasel words like "could" in place of "will". Also, they've been careful with their choice of appliances to avoid anything that automatically draws the same power regardless of mains voltage over voltage ranges well in excess of the widest of mains supply tolerances (no desktop PCs or laptops running off their charging brick) as well as anything with a thermostat (other than for the dishwasher (full cycle) where it's quite telling that this demonstrates the least savings). It's been said that "Advertising" is the art of lying by omission. Boy, do these *******s advertise through their teeth! Oddly enough they also had input into this http://gwenergy.co.uk/wp-content/upl...LTAGE-SYSTEMS- GUIDE-GWE.pdf As an exercise in the art of propaganda (aka, advertising) this is a work of 'creative writing' even Joseph Goebbels would have been proud to sign his name to. -- Johnny B Good |
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