Sorry Brian it is a photo, I'll talk you through it later when I have
more time.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

It would have been easier and faster to to the job right in the first
place. I now have to check all the fittings. BTW this was a DIY install.

--
Adam

ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire (not
even flex) is quite pointless

On 27/04/2018 19:28, ARW wrote:
Sorry Brian it is a photo, I'll talk you through it later when I have
more time.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

It would have been easier and faster to to the job right in the first
place. I now have to check all the fittings. BTW this was a DIY install.

Well at least the earth wire is sleeved!

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 19:36:36 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

;-)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

Would that typically come in from the right (against the raised bit)
and be wrapped clockwise, or just tucked under the same if the flex
was fitted with a ferrule?

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

I don't think that is a 'knockout' as such is it as it looks like it
has a rolled or rounded edge. If it does have a formed edge, does it
still have to have a grommet (genuine question)?

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire (not
even flex) is quite pointless

I'd agree with that as well.

Cheers, T i m

On 27/04/2018 19:51, newshound wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:28, ARW wrote:
Sorry Brian it is a photo, I'll talk you through it later when I have
more time.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

It would have been easier and faster to to the job right in the first
place. I now have to check all the fittings. BTW this was a DIY install.

Well at least the earth wire is sleeved!

Yeah, making absolutely sure there is no way it could come into contact
with the "must be earthed" metalwork of the fitting ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

It's an ES fitting!


--
Adam

On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire (not
even flex) is quite pointless


Given that its a ceramic holder its probably designed for a hot
situation in which case the T&E shouldn't go there at all and heat
resistant cables should be used. On the other hand its only a CFL.

I wonder what wattage its rated at and how hot it gets when someone fits
a tungsten bulb?

On 27/04/18 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Well spotted - though on that type of fitting, it probably doesn't
matter - compared to say an ES older style.

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

That was the first one I saw...


No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

Debatable? The metal looks like it is turned over for a smooth edge. But
it never does any harm to have a grommet

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire (not
even flex) is quite pointless


That didn't even occur to me - but now you've said it, yes: why the choc
block???

On 27/04/18 21:16, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

It's an ES fitting!



It is? Oh - OK, then yes - I retract the bit about L+N not mattering too
much.

On 27/04/2018 21:31, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire (not
even flex) is quite pointless


Given that its a ceramic holder its probably designed for a hot
situation in which case the T&E shouldn't go there at all and heat
resistant cables should be used. On the other hand its only a CFL.

I wonder what wattage its rated at and how hot it gets when someone fits
a tungsten bulb?


60W rating, but it's never going to get a 60W lamp fitted.

And that CFL was shagged. It's now 9W LED. The old CFL gave 4 lux at the
wash hand basin (girls toilet) after 60 seconds. The new LED gives 74
lux at the same position instantly.



--
Adam

On 27/04/2018 21:59, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:31, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire
(not even flex) is quite pointless


Given that its a ceramic holder its probably designed for a hot
situation in which case the T&E shouldn't go there at all and heat
resistant cables should be used. On the other hand its only a CFL.

I wonder what wattage its rated at and how hot it gets when someone
fits a tungsten bulb?


60W rating, but it's never going to get a 60W lamp fitted.

And that CFL was shagged. It's now 9W LED. The old CFL gave 4 lux at the
wash hand basin (girls toilet) after 60 seconds. The new LED gives 74
lux at the same position instantly.




The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

It would be better to have a dedicated fitting without a bulb. Maybe a
small 12v LED panel?

On 27/04/2018 21:54, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/04/18 21:16, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

It's an ES fitting!

It is? Oh - OK, then yes - I retract the bit about L+N not mattering too
much.

Why does it matter?

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

ARW wrote:

It's an ES fitting!

I retract the bit about L+N not mattering too much.

Why does it matter?

Because you don't want the large area of screw-cap to be live and the
small end contact to be neutral, if someone's changing a lamp with it
switched on.

On 27/04/2018 22:08, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:59, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:31, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire
(not even flex) is quite pointless


Given that its a ceramic holder its probably designed for a hot
situation in which case the T&E shouldn't go there at all and heat
resistant cables should be used. On the other hand its only a CFL.

I wonder what wattage its rated at and how hot it gets when someone
fits a tungsten bulb?


60W rating, but it's never going to get a 60W lamp fitted.

And that CFL was shagged. It's now 9W LED. The old CFL gave 4 lux at
the wash hand basin (girls toilet) after 60 seconds. The new LED gives
74 lux at the same position instantly.




The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

It would be better to have a dedicated fitting without a bulb. Maybe a
small 12v LED panel?



Well the fitting is rated 60W so it does not matter if a 60W lamp is fitted.

--
Adam

On 27/04/2018 19:51, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 19:36:36 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

I don't think that is a 'knockout' as such is it as it looks like it
has a rolled or rounded edge. If it does have a formed edge, does it
still have to have a grommet (genuine question)?


I would say no grommet needed. If fact you would not get one to fit the
rounded hole.


--
Adam

On 27/04/18 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

There's nothing to stop anyone putting a 100W bulb in either, or even a
150W if they bend the hold down a bit.

At some point, you need to label things - and a label that says "20W"
is as good as a label that says "=60W"

On 27/04/18 22:51, Max Demian wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:54, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/04/18 21:16, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

It's an ES fitting!

It is? Oh - OK, then yes - I retract the bit about L+N not mattering
too much.

Why does it matter?


Have you ever looked at an ES bulb and its holder. If not, if you have
one, please take a look.

On older fittings, the outer contact is the metal screw thread. If
that's live, then the base of the bulb becomes live as soon as you start
to screw it in. At this point, you could be holding the metal base.

Some modern ES holders have insulating screw threads and a leaf contact
that doesn't mate until the bulb is pretty much home, at which point
it's hard to touch the bulb's metal base.

On 28/04/2018 09:05, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/04/18 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

There's nothing to stop anyone putting a 100W bulb in either, or even a
150W if they bend the hold down a bit.

At some point, you need to label things - and a label that says "20W"
is as good as a label that says "=60W"

I was wondering last week about making some "7W max" labels to go with
GU10 lamp holders with PVC leads* which are much cheaper than others
with posher leads. But with ceiling downlights where do you stick the
labels without making the lights look totally naff? Is it good enough
to wrap them round the leads?

I wouldn't care if it was for me but this is to help a neighbour who
currently has MR16s heating most of her house, with transformers which
have started melting from time to time.

*
http://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/342...P10008?st=gu10

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 28/04/2018 09:27, Robin wrote:


I was wondering last week about making some "7W max" labels to go with
GU10 lamp holders with PVC leads* which are much cheaper than others
with posher leads.Â* But with ceiling downlights where do you stick the
labels without making the lights look totally naff?Â* Is it good enough
to wrap them round the leads?

I wouldn't care if it was for me but this is to help a neighbour who
currently has MR16s heating most of her house, with transformers which
have started melting from time to time.

*
http://cpc.farnell.com/unbranded/342...P10008?st=gu10



Stick the label on the CU and cross your fingers?


--
Adam

On 28/04/2018 08:50, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 22:08, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:59, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:31, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire
(not even flex) is quite pointless


Given that its a ceramic holder its probably designed for a hot
situation in which case the T&E shouldn't go there at all and heat
resistant cables should be used. On the other hand its only a CFL.

I wonder what wattage its rated at and how hot it gets when someone
fits a tungsten bulb?


60W rating, but it's never going to get a 60W lamp fitted.

And that CFL was shagged. It's now 9W LED. The old CFL gave 4 lux at
the wash hand basin (girls toilet) after 60 seconds. The new LED
gives 74 lux at the same position instantly.




The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

It would be better to have a dedicated fitting without a bulb. Maybe a
small 12v LED panel?



Well the fitting is rated 60W so it does not matter if a 60W lamp is
fitted.


Will the internal temperature get above the softening point of PVC
cables though? If it does the cores need sleeving with heat resistant
sleeves to prevent them slowly moving out of the insulation and causing
shorts.

I have known this to happen but fortunately it was on a telephone rack
and no real power available. The PVC insulated cables passed over the
top of a rack and the cooling intake got partially block meaning the
exhaust temp went up to about 70-80C. The cores in the cable shorted and
quite a few line faults resulted.

Quite a few of the lamp fittings I have fitted came with glass fibre
sleeves to fit over the cores, others had high temp tails.


The little reflector bulbs are the worst as they come in two types which
most people don't understand..

One type sends most of the radiant heat out the front and the other out
the back so putting one of the wrong ones in can increase the temp in
the fittings to the point where stuff chars and burns even with the
correct wattage.

I expect you have already seen that.

On 28/04/2018 09:05, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/04/18 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

There's nothing to stop anyone putting a 100W bulb in either, or even a
150W if they bend the hold down a bit.

At some point, you need to label things - and a label that says "20W"
is as good as a label that says "=60W"

Is that like labelling them to not use dichroic reflector bulbs when
most people don't know what they are or what they do?

On 28/04/2018 09:43, dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2018 08:50, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 22:08, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:59, ARW wrote:
On 27/04/2018 21:31, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/04/2018 19:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/8/85/How_wrong.jpg

Live wire to neutral terminal and vice-versa (not that a bulb cares)

Earth wire not connected to earth terminal

No grommet where T&E passes through metal knockout

given how much slack T&E there is, the chock-block and 3" of wire
(not even flex) is quite pointless


Given that its a ceramic holder its probably designed for a hot
situation in which case the T&E shouldn't go there at all and heat
resistant cables should be used. On the other hand its only a CFL.

I wonder what wattage its rated at and how hot it gets when someone
fits a tungsten bulb?


60W rating, but it's never going to get a 60W lamp fitted.

And that CFL was shagged. It's now 9W LED. The old CFL gave 4 lux at
the wash hand basin (girls toilet) after 60 seconds. The new LED
gives 74 lux at the same position instantly.




The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

It would be better to have a dedicated fitting without a bulb. Maybe
a small 12v LED panel?



Well the fitting is rated 60W so it does not matter if a 60W lamp is
fitted.


Will the internal temperature get above the softening point of PVC
cables though? If it does the cores need sleeving with heat resistant
sleeves to prevent them slowly moving out of the insulation and causing
shorts.

I have known this to happen but fortunately it was on a telephone rack
and no real power available. The PVC insulated cables passed over the
top of a rack and the cooling intake got partially block meaning the
exhaust temp went up to about 70-80C. The cores in the cable shorted and
quite a few line faults resulted.

Quite a few of the lamp fittings I have fitted came with glass fibre
sleeves to fit over the cores, others had high temp tails.


The little reflector bulbs are the worst as they come in two types which
most people don't understand..

One type sends most of the radiant heat out the front and the other out
the back so putting one of the wrong ones in can increase the temp in
the fittings to the point where stuff chars and burns even with the
correct wattage.

I expect you have already seen that.

The fitting is supposed to take GLS not reflector lamps.

TBH they are **** cheap lightfittings. I have replaced all the lamps
with LEDs (and earthed the fittings) and I left some spare lamps.
Screwfix were doing five for £4 and I am working for free on this job.

--
Adam

On 28/04/18 09:45, dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2018 09:05, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/04/18 22:08, dennis@home wrote:

The problem with that is anyone can come along and put a 60W bulb in,
there is nothing to stop them.

There's nothing to stop anyone putting a 100W bulb in either, or even
a 150W if they bend the hold down a bit.

At some point, you need to label things - and a label that says "20W"
is as good as a label that says "=60W"

Is that like labelling them to not use dichroic reflector bulbs when
most people don't know what they are or what they do?

To be fair, the first time I heard about "dichroic" was in an undergrad
physics lecture

On 27/04/2018 23:07, Andy Burns wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

ARW wrote:

It's an ES fitting!

I retract the bit about L+N not mattering too much.

Why does it matter?

Because you don't want the large area of screw-cap to be live and the
small end contact to be neutral, if someone's changing a lamp with it
switched on.

Bloody Yanks!

Don't they have reversible mains plugs anyway?

You shouldn't rely on neutral to be neutral.

--
Max Demian