Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C


NT

On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

No, but you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think the electric shower will be very wonderful.

Owain

On 03/03/2018 08:31, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in winter.

I'm sure Owain's comment (below) is correct, but why?

"you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful."

On 03/03/2018 08:31, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in winter.

I'm sure Owain's comment (below) is correct, but why?

"you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful."

It happens that Bill Wright formulated :
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

I make ours, 2.7C. It comes from a water tower, so perhaps extra cool.

On 03/03/2018 10:06, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Bill Wright formulated :
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

I make ours, 2.7C. It comes from a water tower, so perhaps extra cool.

Ours comes from a buried reservoir.

Bill

formulated the question :
No, but you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful.

My electric shower copes perfectly well. Its a 'set the temperature you
want' type and it does what ever it needs to do to match the setting.

Bill Wright formulated on Saturday :
On 03/03/2018 10:06, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Bill Wright formulated :
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

I make ours, 2.7C. It comes from a water tower, so perhaps extra cool.

Ours comes from a buried reservoir.

Bill

Underground, it will be a tad warmer.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
formulated the question :
No, but you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't
think the electric shower will be very wonderful.

My electric shower copes perfectly well. Its a 'set the temperature you
want' type and it does what ever it needs to do to match the setting.

When our shower element failed and was deemed non-repairable, we had to get
a new shower. The electrician would not fit one that was as powerful as we'd
had before because of the grade of cable that had been used - and replacing
the cable would have meant trying to lift the floorboards in the loft that
the previous owner had *glued* down as well as screwing them down.

The new shower (9 kW rather than 12 kW) was just about OK in the summer, but
on a freezing cold day like we've been having recently, it was impossible to
get more that a piddly trickle if you wanted the water any warmer than
tepid.

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

My thermapen showed 3.5°C this morning (Southern edge of Dartmoor).

(I run a home-based microbakery and water temperature is something that
interests me)

Gordon

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 08:21:28 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

My flat was 17 degrees with the heating off. Does this mean my
downstairs neighbour can expect a large gas bill :-)

NY was thinking very hard :
The new shower (9 kW rather than 12 kW) was just about OK in the summer, but
on a freezing cold day like we've been having recently, it was impossible to
get more that a piddly trickle if you wanted the water any warmer than tepid.

Mine is a 9.5 or 10Kw, not sure without checking, but I find it more
than adequate. It still has good flow, even when set far too hot. Guess
I must be made of sterner stuff. Its 'adjust the flow, to get the
temperature' 7.5Kw predecessor was not really adequate at all, it
needed constant adjustment to keep the temperature right.

Just dial in 5 on the temperature setting, push the button and its
fine, even in this weather.

On 03/03/2018 09:08, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 08:31, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in winter.

I'm sure Owain's comment (below) is correct, but why?

"you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful."

Because you set the temperature required, and have to live with whatever
flow rate is necessary to achieve that. Hence with colder water incoming
you will get a weedier shower.

Have a look at the flow rate comparisons in the table:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ting_the_Power



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/03/2018 09:08, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 08:31, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill WrightÂ* wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in winter.

When I had an electric shower I always had to switch it to the high
power setting in winter.

--
Max Demian

On 03/03/2018 10:59, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 08:21:28 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

My flat was 17 degrees with the heating off. Does this mean my
downstairs neighbour can expect a large gas bill :-)

How long was it off?

--
Max Demian

On 03/03/2018 12:00, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/03/2018 09:08, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 08:31, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill WrightÂ* wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in
winter.

I'm sure Owain's comment (below) is correct, but why?

"you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful."

Because you set the temperature required, and have to live with whatever
flow rate is necessary to achieve that. Hence with colder water incoming
you will get a weedier shower.

Have a look at the flow rate comparisons in the table:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ting_the_Power

But, that table allows for a much bigger temperature difference between
summer and winter. We are being told that the incoming main is 5.7C at
this very cold time of year, and "nearer 10C" in summer. That's a
difference of only 4C, and it takes a flow difference of only 10% to
correct it (for a 40C shower), which is what I said above. I think 10%
is scarcely noticeable.

The table you quoted assumes a 10C difference in the incoming mains
temperature between summer and winter. I'd therefore expect a difference
in flow rate of 25% in that table, whereas it actually quotes 29%. I am
not sure where the extra 4% comes from, but I'm not going to quibble. A
29% reduction in flow is probably noticeable, but not a complete game
changer.

I suspect that there are other factors in play, for example maybe we
want warmer showers in winter than summer because the bathroom is
colder. So, maybe the answer is to heat the bathroom more, rather than
install a more powerful electric shower with all the cabling required?

GB wrote:

On 03/03/2018 12:00, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/03/2018 09:08, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 08:31, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in
winter.

I'm sure Owain's comment (below) is correct, but why?

"you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful."

Because you set the temperature required, and have to live with whatever
flow rate is necessary to achieve that. Hence with colder water incoming
you will get a weedier shower.

Have a look at the flow rate comparisons in the table:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/..._shower#Select
ing_the_Power

But, that table allows for a much bigger temperature difference between
summer and winter. We are being told that the incoming main is 5.7C at
this very cold time of year, and "nearer 10C" in summer. That's a
difference of only 4C, and it takes a flow difference of only 10% to
correct it (for a 40C shower), which is what I said above. I think 10%
is scarcely noticeable.

The table you quoted assumes a 10C difference in the incoming mains
temperature between summer and winter. I'd therefore expect a difference
in flow rate of 25% in that table, whereas it actually quotes 29%. I am
not sure where the extra 4% comes from, but I'm not going to quibble. A
29% reduction in flow is probably noticeable, but not a complete game
changer.

I suspect that there are other factors in play, for example maybe we
want warmer showers in winter than summer because the bathroom is
colder. So, maybe the answer is to heat the bathroom more, rather than
install a more powerful electric shower with all the cabling required?

I think you are right. When we designed our wet room we decided to have
an electric shower (9.5kW) as two showers on a combi boiler seemed a
dubious plan. We have electric UFH which is always on, keeping the
lfloor at about 25 degrees C, and central heating (fan assisted
radiator) on during the ten cold months of the year. We find that,
although we need slightly dfferent flow settings (flow controlled shower
rather then temperature controlled), subjectively the shower is little
different in flow and temperature in the winter. May seem a luxury, but
since the shower room is the only properly insulated bit of the house,
on five out of six sides at least, it is relatively cheap to heat.


--

Roger Hayter

On 03/03/2018 13:09, GB wrote:

The table you quoted assumes a 10C difference in the incoming mains
temperature between summer and winter. I'd therefore expect a difference
in flow rate of 25% in that table, whereas it actually quotes 29%. I am
not sure where the extra 4% comes from, but I'm not going to quibble. A
29% reduction in flow is probably noticeable, but not a complete game
changer.

I'm being dense: 25/35 = .71, ie 29% reduction.

On 03/03/2018 10:29, NY wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
formulated the question :
No, but you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I
don't think the electric shower will be very wonderful.

My electric shower copes perfectly well. Its a 'set the temperature
you want' type and it does what ever it needs to do to match the setting.

When our shower element failed and was deemed non-repairable, we had to
get a new shower. The electrician would not fit one that was as powerful
as we'd had before because of the grade of cable that had been used -
and replacing the cable would have meant trying to lift the floorboards
in the loft that the previous owner had *glued* down as well as screwing
them down.

The new shower (9 kW rather than 12 kW) was just about OK in the summer,
but on a freezing cold day like we've been having recently, it was
impossible to get more that a piddly trickle if you wanted the water any
warmer than tepid.

I think it comes down to preference. My 8.5kW shower is fine. I mean,
it's no power shower, but does me.

I could quite easily tap in the combi but have never felt the need.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Saturday, 3 March 2018 13:09:28 UTC, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 12:00, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/03/2018 09:08, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 08:31, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill WrightÂ* wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in
winter.

I'm sure Owain's comment (below) is correct, but why?

"you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful."

Because you set the temperature required, and have to live with whatever
flow rate is necessary to achieve that. Hence with colder water incoming
you will get a weedier shower.

Have a look at the flow rate comparisons in the table:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ting_the_Power

But, that table allows for a much bigger temperature difference between
summer and winter. We are being told that the incoming main is 5.7C at
this very cold time of year, and "nearer 10C" in summer. That's a
difference of only 4C, and it takes a flow difference of only 10% to
correct it (for a 40C shower), which is what I said above. I think 10%
is scarcely noticeable.

The table you quoted assumes a 10C difference in the incoming mains
temperature between summer and winter. I'd therefore expect a difference
in flow rate of 25% in that table, whereas it actually quotes 29%. I am
not sure where the extra 4% comes from, but I'm not going to quibble. A
29% reduction in flow is probably noticeable, but not a complete game
changer.

I suspect that there are other factors in play, for example maybe we
want warmer showers in winter than summer because the bathroom is
colder. So, maybe the answer is to heat the bathroom more, rather than
install a more powerful electric shower with all the cabling required?

In winter I generally appreciate a more vigorous hotter shower, and use about 4kW. In summer I'm not looking for hot and am comfortable with 3kW. (Having used higher power showers many times I don't know why so many people like them.)


NT

On 03/03/2018 13:09, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 12:00, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/03/2018 09:08, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 08:31, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 08:21:29 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

Bill

that's typical temp in winter. In summer nearer 10C

So, for the same flow rate, an electric shower will be 4C lower in
winter than summer. That's probably noticeable, but the flow rate would
only need to be reduced by about 10% to get the same temperature in
winter.

I'm sure Owain's comment (below) is correct, but why?

"you've reminded me to put the immersion on for a bath. I don't think
the electric shower will be very wonderful."

Because you set the temperature required, and have to live with
whatever flow rate is necessary to achieve that. Hence with colder
water incoming you will get a weedier shower.

Have a look at the flow rate comparisons in the table:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ting_the_Power


But, that table allows for a much bigger temperature difference between
summer and winter.

How long is a piece of string? The reality will vary hugely depending on
where in the country you are, and the nature of the supply arrangements.

Having said that, around 5 degrees does seem reasonably typical for
winter. The upper limit will probably vary more.

We are being told that the incoming main is 5.7C at
this very cold time of year, and "nearer 10C" in summer.

Its cold at the moment, but has not been for that long.

That's a
difference of only 4C, and it takes a flow difference of only 10% to
correct it (for a 40C shower), which is what I said above. I think 10%
is scarcely noticeable.

Its easy enough to do the sums yourself.

The SHC of water is around 4200 J/kg/C.

So if you have a 10kW shower, that's 10000J or energy available per
second or 600kJ / min.

If you want a 35 degree rise in water temperature that will give you:
600,000 / 4200 / 35 = 5 kg/min (i.e. 4 lpm)

The table you quoted assumes a 10C difference in the incoming mains
temperature between summer and winter. I'd therefore expect a difference
in flow rate of 25% in that table, whereas it actually quotes 29%. I am
not sure where the extra 4% comes from, but I'm not going to quibble. A
29% reduction in flow is probably noticeable, but not a complete game
changer.

With many electric showers you start with "not really enough" flow rate,
so losing a third of that can have quite an impact.

I suspect that there are other factors in play, for example maybe we
want warmer showers in winter than summer because the bathroom is
colder. So, maybe the answer is to heat the bathroom more, rather than
install a more powerful electric shower with all the cabling required?

If you start from the POV that generally electric showers are "adequate"
at best, you may as well cable and provision for the most powerful
available (the cost of the cable etc is an insignificant part of the
overall cost). That way you have options in the future.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/03/2018 18:20, wrote:
On Saturday, 3 March 2018 13:09:28 UTC, GB wrote:

I suspect that there are other factors in play, for example maybe
we want warmer showers in winter than summer because the bathroom
is colder. So, maybe the answer is to heat the bathroom more,
rather than install a more powerful electric shower with all the
cabling required?

In winter I generally appreciate a more vigorous hotter shower, and
use about 4kW. In summer I'm not looking for hot and am comfortable
with 3kW. (Having used higher power showers many times I don't know
why so many people like them.)

Its very subjective.

Experience and expectations vary enormously. Some people like the
physical sensation of a force of water from the shower, others not so
much. It also depends allot on the type of shower head etc.

Personally I like quite a powerful (and fairly hot) shower, but don't
find the need for more than 8 or 9 LPM, or to have it actually flay skin
from the body!

I my last place I had a 35kW combi that would do one excellent shower at
a time, or two "ok" ones. To be fair, if you had not experienced the
excellent version, you would not have really noticed. However if you
were half way though a shower, and someone then got in the other shower,
then you were aware in the drop off in flow rate and it felt "not as
good".

I am just about to commission two extra showers here, so it will be
interesting to see how two run in parallel from the unvented cylinder.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/03/18 19:41, John Rumm wrote:

If you want a 35 degree rise in water temperature that will give you:
600,000 / 4200 / 35 = 5 kg/min (i.e. 4 lpm)

Do you use Heavy Water for your shower?!

--

Jeff

On 04/03/2018 11:23, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/03/18 19:41, John Rumm wrote:

If you want a 35 degree rise in water temperature that will give you:
600,000 / 4200 / 35 = 5 kg/min (i.e. 4 lpm)

Do you use Heavy Water for your shower?!

I think a large component of tritiated water would be needed to reach a
density of 1.25. Might usefully discourage long showers

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 04/03/2018 11:23, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/03/18 19:41, John Rumm wrote:

If you want a 35 degree rise in water temperature that will give you:
600,000 / 4200 / 35 = 5 kg/min (i.e. 4 lpm)

Do you use Heavy Water for your shower?!


Yeah, make that 4 kg/min ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/03/2018 14:02, GB wrote:
On 03/03/2018 13:09, GB wrote:

The table you quoted assumes a 10C difference in the incoming mains
temperature between summer and winter. I'd therefore expect a
difference in flow rate of 25% in that table, whereas it actually
quotes 29%. I am not sure where the extra 4% comes from, but I'm not
going to quibble. A 29% reduction in flow is probably noticeable, but
not a complete game changer.

I'm being dense: 25/35 = .71, ie 29% reduction.



I am just trying to think of a recent British summer where the incoming
water could be at 15 deg:-)

--
Adam

On 03/03/2018 10:59, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 08:21:28 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

Ours is 5.7C. Anyone else checked theirs?

My flat was 17 degrees with the heating off. Does this mean my
downstairs neighbour can expect a large gas bill :-)


Is there a sort of sweet sickly smell in the air ?.