I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm, they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks

On 28/02/2018 09:38, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm, they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks


Try adjusting the 'balance' of the rads. Each rad has a lockshield
valve at each end. One is for on/off, the other is to balance the system.

You can do it with temp sensors- setting for the right drop across each
rad.

Or, simply adjust them to get the rooms / rads right.

Worth bleeding the system first.

--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On 28/02/2018 09:59, Brian Reay wrote:
On 28/02/2018 09:38, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have
recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm,
they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the
other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth
turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks


Try adjusting the 'balance' of the rads.Â* Each rad has a lockshield
valve at each end. One is for on/off, the other is to balance the system.

You can do it with temp sensors- setting for the right drop across each
rad.

Or, simply adjust them to get the rooms / rads right.

Worth bleeding the system first.



I should have mentioned, some rads may only need the valve open a tiny
amount and still get hot. I'd open the coldest one, close the others,
then gradually open them, perhaps closing the cold one(s) a bit, until
you are happy.



--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On Wednesday, 28 February 2018 09:38:47 UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm, they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks

your rads aren't balanced.


NT

In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
I should have mentioned, some rads may only need the valve open a tiny
amount and still get hot. I'd open the coldest one, close the others,
then gradually open them, perhaps closing the cold one(s) a bit, until
you are happy.

Well worth getting an infra red thermometer and measuring the temperature
drop across the rad. No point in having more flow through it than needed.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 9:38:47 AM UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm, they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks

Thanks, what is the temp drop across a radiator to balance it correctly

On 28/02/18 11:34, Steve Jones wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 9:38:47 AM UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm, they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks

Thanks, what is the temp drop across a radiator to balance it correctly


According to this:

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/how-t...nce-radiators/

12 degrees C.

On 28/02/18 09:59, Brian Reay wrote:
On 28/02/2018 09:38, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have
recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm,
they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the
other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth
turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks


Try adjusting the 'balance' of the rads.Â* Each rad has a lockshield
valve at each end. One is for on/off, the other is to balance the system.

You can do it with temp sensors- setting for the right drop across each
rad.

Or, simply adjust them to get the rooms / rads right.

Worth bleeding the system first.


Having done a load, you can get quite far forward just by shutting all
the lockshields off, then opening either 1/4 or 1/4 turn (depends on the
make).

Also, jack all TRVs full open for the duration.

Then look for rads that aren't getting warm and crank those full open
(in case there's any air - the extra flow can dislodge it and bleed it).

Then shut it back to maybe 3/4 and go from there.

If you want to really balance it, a dual input thermometer with a pair
of pipe clamp thermocouples makes the job go a *lot* quicker - tweak
each rad for about 10-12C difference and not the inlet temperature. If
that's a LOT less than the boiler flow, you might have a restriction in
your pipework.

On 28/02/18 11:51, Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/02/18 09:59, Brian Reay wrote:
On 28/02/2018 09:38, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have
recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm,
they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the
other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth
turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks


Try adjusting the 'balance' of the rads.Â* Each rad has a lockshield
valve at each end. One is for on/off, the other is to balance the system.

You can do it with temp sensors- setting for the right drop across
each rad.

Or, simply adjust them to get the rooms / rads right.

Worth bleeding the system first.


Having done a load, you can get quite far forward just by shutting all
the lockshields off, then opening either 1/4 or 1/4 turn (depends on the

^^ 1/4 or 1/2

make).

Also, jack all TRVs full open for the duration.

Then look for rads that aren't getting warm and crank those full open
(in case there's any air - the extra flow can dislodge it and bleed it).

Then shut it back to maybe 3/4 and go from there.

If you want to really balance it, a dual input thermometer with a pair
of pipe clamp thermocouples makes the job go a *lot* quicker - tweak
each rad for about 10-12C difference and not the inlet temperature. If
that's a LOT less than the boiler flow, you might have a restriction in
your pipework.

On Wednesday, 28 February 2018 11:34:04 UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 9:38:47 AM UTC, Steve Jones wrote:

I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm, they are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the other radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth turning up the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks

Thanks, what is the temp drop across a radiator to balance it correctly

they should be balanced of course. That's the point. What the figure is depends on the system.


NT

wrote:

Steve Jones wrote:

what is the temp drop across a radiator to balance it correctly

they should be balanced of course. That's the point. What the figure is depends on the system.

Start here ...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Balancing_central_heating_radiators

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 1:45:48 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

Steve Jones wrote:

what is the temp drop across a radiator to balance it correctly

they should be balanced of course. That's the point. What the figure is depends on the system.

Start here ...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Balancing_central_heating_radiators

Thanks, will try tonight

On Wednesday, 28 February 2018 13:45:48 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
Steve Jones wrote:

what is the temp drop across a radiator to balance it correctly

they should be balanced of course. That's the point. What the figure is depends on the system.

Start here ...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Balancing_central_heating_radiators

Yes, but last time I looked it missed the last step. The final goal is not identical rad temp drops, it's same room temps. The one often does not follow from the other.


NT

I do wish you would moderate your sig line a bit. It offends me as most
people are clueless about people who need benefits.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Brian Reay" wrote in message
news
On 28/02/2018 09:38, Steve Jones wrote:
I have had a Valliant ecotec 832 fitted about a year ago and have
recently found that two radiators are not getting hot, or even warm, they
are next to each other in terms of piping. If I turn off the other
radiators they get hot, but otherwise they dont. Is it worth turning up
the pump speed or flushing or what, any help appreciated.
Thanks


Try adjusting the 'balance' of the rads. Each rad has a lockshield valve
at each end. One is for on/off, the other is to balance the system.

You can do it with temp sensors- setting for the right drop across each
rad.

Or, simply adjust them to get the rooms / rads right.

Worth bleeding the system first.

--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They are
depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On 28/02/2018 16:53, Brian Gaff wrote:
I do wish you would moderate your sig line a bit. It offends me as most
people are clueless about people who need benefits.
Brian


I've no issue with those who need benefits. It is those who don't that
are the problem. They take money from everyone.

On 28/02/2018 15:26, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 07:11:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:


Yes, but last time I looked it missed the last step. The final goal is not identical rad temp drops, it's same room temps. The one often does not follow from the other.

Wouldn't a TRV take care of that aspect?


Maybe. Eventually. Some rooms would heat up really quickly, and some
much more slowly. If you're lucky the TRV will turn down the rad in the
warm rooms, and then the cold ones will heat up too. Better (usually) if
they all do it together.

Andy

On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 15:26:18 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 07:11:03 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Wednesday, 28 February 2018 13:45:48 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
Steve Jones wrote:

what is the temp drop across a radiator to balance it correctly

they should be balanced of course. That's the point. What the figure
is depends on the system.

Start here ...

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/
Balancing_central_heating_radiators

Yes, but last time I looked it missed the last step. The final goal is
not identical rad temp drops, it's same room temps. The one often does
not follow from the other.

Wouldn't a TRV take care of that aspect?

That thought occurs to me too. In fact, I rather think the value of lock
shield valves for balancing is overrated when all (except one[1]) of your
radiators are equipped with TRVs. You want to keep the LSVs as wide open
as possible by determining which, if any, rads aren't receiving
sufficient flow with all LSVs and TRVs wide open before attempting to
balance the hottest (flow hogs) by adjusting their LSVs.

A well planned out pipework run[2] should result in a reasonably
balanced system to start with before any fine tuning adjustments with LSVs
on the 'hottest' rads[3] are applied. Once you've got the system balanced
with the TRVs wide open and a minimum of throttling on the LSVs, the TRVs
should take care of room temperatures automatically without unduly
starving the flow and return rates on the more remote rads.

[1] The one exception, usually located in the coolest least occupied room
in the house, being typically a small rad or heated towel rail in a
shower or bath room to act as a permanent bypass to protect the pump from
excess back pressure in the event that all the other rads shut off their
TRVs when the room temperatures reach their target temperature settings.

[2] The Boiler 28mm flow/return pipes should feed a main floor
distribution manifold flow/return set which in turn feed each floor
manifold flow/return set in 22mm pipe (ideally central to each floor's
radiators) with each feeding their rads, typically in 10mm pipe in most
modern day domestic central heating systems.

That's certainly the case in our own 6 bed 1898 Victorian Semi-detached
home built on three floors with basement. In a modern 3 bed semi, it
might be more practical to pipe the boiler flow/return to a single set of
manifolds feeding all of the rads directly without resorting to a floor
manifold feeding two seperate radiator manifolds (one on each floor).

[3] Assuming no obstructions in the coolest rad(s) or their pipework, the
low flow rate could simply be on account of them being on significantly
longer pipe runs compared to the rest of the rads serviced by that
floor's distribution manifold.

In a properly considered layout, such extra long pipe runs would use the
a larger bore pipe for the main run between manifolds and rad to
compensate for the higher resistance to flow and return over longer runs
of 'standard bore' pipe as used by the more proximal rads.

In practice, unless there's a very obvious disparity in flow resistance,
such measures (larger bore pipework to the more remote rad(s)) are rarely
implemented since the difference in flow rates can usually be balanced
out using the LSVs without unduly compromising overall system
performance. Typical issues being high noise levels when LSVs are
seriously throttling the 'hot rads' at a maximum pump speed setting
required to provide the required flow to the 'coldest, most remote rads
in the system.

If the coldest rads are in bedrooms, you can afford to leave the system
balanced in favour of better heat flow to the main living areas since the
bedroom rads will eventually see improved flow once the TRVs on the
hotter rads respond to the warmer room temperatures and throttle back the
flow on these 'energy hogs', to divert more flow to the bedroom rads
later on in the evening before the CH system is shutdown by the timer/
controller just prior to 'bedtime'.

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
A well planned out pipework run[2] should result in a reasonably
balanced system to start with before any fine tuning adjustments with
LSVs on the 'hottest' rads[3] are applied. Once you've got the system
balanced with the TRVs wide open and a minimum of throttling on the
LSVs, the TRVs should take care of room temperatures automatically
without unduly starving the flow and return rates on the more remote
rads.

With a sealed system, it's less of a problem. With an open vented one,
there was the danger of pumping over.

--
*Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 28 February 2018 21:04:08 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 28/02/2018 15:26, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 07:11:03 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:


Yes, but last time I looked it missed the last step. The final goal is not identical rad temp drops, it's same room temps. The one often does not follow from the other.

Wouldn't a TRV take care of that aspect?


Maybe. Eventually. Some rooms would heat up really quickly, and some
much more slowly. If you're lucky the TRV will turn down the rad in the
warm rooms, and then the cold ones will heat up too. Better (usually) if
they all do it together.

Andy

No, a TRV does not solve it. TRVs are often thought of as thermostatic in the usual sense, ie maintaining a steady room temp. They are not however. Their sensors are more thermally attached to the primary water flow than room temp, so they tend to partially regulate the primary flow. They don't regulate room temp to a significant extent - more than 0% yes, but that's all.

When designing a CH system, heat calcs are approximate. They're often based on guesses about construction details which are not consistently correct. (I had one professional offer an estimate 3x actual power consumption). They also vary room to room depending on north/south facing & other details that may be ignored.

When picking a rad, the nearest size is generally picked, not the exact size/output calculated. So with those 2 factors, if you get all rads at the same temp you often will not have consistent room temps. It's a good start, but the aim is consistent room temps, or sometimes some variation by choice. Balancing all rad temps does not give you a properly balanced heating system. Doing that in houses where layouts have changed after fitting CH can see room temps be wildly out.

Systems should be set up with all TRVs fully open. The TRVs can then be used to manually reduce room temps as desired.


NT

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 12:55:46 AM UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 28 February 2018 21:04:08 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 28/02/2018 15:26, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 07:11:03 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:


Yes, but last time I looked it missed the last step. The final goal is not identical rad temp drops, it's same room temps. The one often does not follow from the other.

Wouldn't a TRV take care of that aspect?


Maybe. Eventually. Some rooms would heat up really quickly, and some
much more slowly. If you're lucky the TRV will turn down the rad in the
warm rooms, and then the cold ones will heat up too. Better (usually) if
they all do it together.

Andy



No, a TRV does not solve it. TRVs are often thought of as thermostatic in the usual sense, ie maintaining a steady room temp. They are not however. Their sensors are more thermally attached to the primary water flow than room temp, so they tend to partially regulate the primary flow. They don't regulate room temp to a significant extent - more than 0% yes, but that's all..

When designing a CH system, heat calcs are approximate. They're often based on guesses about construction details which are not consistently correct.. (I had one professional offer an estimate 3x actual power consumption). They also vary room to room depending on north/south facing & other details that may be ignored.

When picking a rad, the nearest size is generally picked, not the exact size/output calculated. So with those 2 factors, if you get all rads at the same temp you often will not have consistent room temps. It's a good start, but the aim is consistent room temps, or sometimes some variation by choice. Balancing all rad temps does not give you a properly balanced heating system. Doing that in houses where layouts have changed after fitting CH can see room temps be wildly out.

Systems should be set up with all TRVs fully open. The TRVs can then be used to manually reduce room temps as desired.


NT

Thanks,
Did the 1/4 turn trick and all working, will look into properly balancing later

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 00:17:59 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
A well planned out pipework run[2] should result in a reasonably
balanced system to start with before any fine tuning adjustments with
LSVs on the 'hottest' rads[3] are applied. Once you've got the system
balanced with the TRVs wide open and a minimum of throttling on the
LSVs, the TRVs should take care of room temperatures automatically
without unduly starving the flow and return rates on the more remote
rads.

With a sealed system, it's less of a problem. With an open vented one,
there was the danger of pumping over.

A good point and one I forgot to mention. Also, whilst TRVs have to
contend with the self heating effect due to their proximity to the heat
source they're controlling, they're a reasonable alternative to the use
of expensive remote temperature sensors in each room wired to individual
solenoid operated valves to obtain improved temperature control. TRVs may
be a compromise solution but at least they *are* a (more affordable, if
less than perfect) solution.

The main problem with TRVs being that it requires the user to keep fine
tuning their settings over several days to set the room temperature to a
reasonable approximation of what is deemed to be comfortable for each
particular room or heating space. They don't offer the simplicity and
instant gratification that a more sophisticated remote thermostat
controller (calibrated in actual degrees C or F) is able to provide the
user. Such sophistication costs money which may not necessarily offer a
return on investment (especially in a house full of 'knob twiddlers').

--
Johnny B Good

On Thursday, 1 March 2018 13:55:25 UTC, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 00:17:59 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:

A well planned out pipework run[2] should result in a reasonably
balanced system to start with before any fine tuning adjustments with
LSVs on the 'hottest' rads[3] are applied. Once you've got the system
balanced with the TRVs wide open and a minimum of throttling on the
LSVs, the TRVs should take care of room temperatures automatically
without unduly starving the flow and return rates on the more remote
rads.

With a sealed system, it's less of a problem. With an open vented one,
there was the danger of pumping over.

A good point and one I forgot to mention. Also, whilst TRVs have to
contend with the self heating effect due to their proximity to the heat
source they're controlling, they're a reasonable alternative to the use
of expensive remote temperature sensors in each room wired to individual
solenoid operated valves to obtain improved temperature control. TRVs may
be a compromise solution but at least they *are* a (more affordable, if
less than perfect) solution.

The main problem with TRVs being that it requires the user to keep fine
tuning their settings over several days to set the room temperature to a
reasonable approximation of what is deemed to be comfortable for each
particular room or heating space. They don't offer the simplicity and
instant gratification that a more sophisticated remote thermostat
controller (calibrated in actual degrees C or F) is able to provide the
user. Such sophistication costs money which may not necessarily offer a
return on investment (especially in a house full of 'knob twiddlers').

I can confidently say from experience that TRVs are not at all a replacement for a room stat. I explained why earlier.


NT

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
The main problem with TRVs being that it requires the user to keep fine
tuning their settings over several days to set the room temperature to a
reasonable approximation of what is deemed to be comfortable for each
particular room or heating space. They don't offer the simplicity and
instant gratification that a more sophisticated remote thermostat
controller (calibrated in actual degrees C or F) is able to provide the
user. Such sophistication costs money which may not necessarily offer a
return on investment (especially in a house full of 'knob twiddlers').

Thing is no room stat ever can cope with cool spots in the average room.
Unless you have some form of forced air circulation. So the TRV -
especially if more than one rad in a room - can do just about as good a
job.

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/02/2018 23:46, Johnny B Good wrote:
A well planned out pipework run

Most of use inherit a system that was pre-installed, either by a
previous owner or a spec builder. They are normally planned for least
installation cost.

Andy

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:40:34 +0000, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 28/02/2018 23:46, Johnny B Good wrote:
A well planned out pipework run

Most of use inherit a system that was pre-installed, either by a
previous owner or a spec builder. They are normally planned for least
installation cost.


Hence my 'caveat' :-)

Mind you, when the installer has no choice but to use a rad distribution
manifold on each floor, placing the manifold blocks to minimise
installation costs usually works in favour of balancing the flows for
each radiator on their given floor. However, this still leaves some
variations in the balance of flows going from the main flow/return
manifolds serving each floor manifold.

In our case, on account of the DHW tank's location which dictated the
location of the pump and the 3 way mid position valve, this placed the
main manifold in the void between the ground floor ceiling space and the
1st floor which isn't too far from midway between the ground and 2nd
floor radiator circuits. I guess the LSVs were throttling the 1st floor
rads the most to balance the floor manifold flows. Mind you, with only
three rads on the 2nd floor and 5 rads each on the ground and 1st floors,
leaving the LSVs wide open on the ground and slightly more remote 2nd
floor rads would probably be about right once the 1st floor rad LSVs had
been adjusted.

Mind you having successfully removed the back bedroom rad last weekend
to allow the plasterer to re-plaster the room including sorting out the
crumbling plaster behind the rad, I'm encouraged to repeat the exercise
with the remaining 11 rads (the heated towel rail is a recent replacement
a mere 6 or 7 years ago) just to flush out the sludge which must have
settled to the bottom of each rad as I discovered with the one I had been
*forced* to remove.

I collected very clean water from that rad which only started showing a
hint of blackness when it was down to the dregs. Said water was recycled
back to the header tank after tying up the ballcock and bailing it out to
a dry state. The ballcock remains tied up for the time being until I
drain down my next rad for flushing out.

I plan on collecting the rad water for re-cycling back to the header
tank before refitting the back bedroom rad to minimise diluting with
fresh untreated mains water. I'm also planning on buying another five
litres of Fernox inhibitor[1] ready for when I re-fit the last two rads
so as to maximise the strength of inhibitor getting into the system and
minimise squandering inhibitor[2] on a header tankful of water to a
minimum.

[1] I lost about half of the 22 quid's worth I'd refreshed the system
with just 6 months prior to our 'Bull in a China Shop' builder hammering
a nail through a CH pipe running under the 1st floor bathroom we were
having revamped around 18 months ago. This 'accident' was despite my
warnings for him to take care to avoid damaging the pipework, the
presence of which I'd alerted him to.

His plumber repaired the pipe using some sort of speedfit/pushfit
coupling which, TBH, I'm not entirely sure can be regarded as a reliable
alternative to a good old fashioned soldered Yorkshire joint. Anyway,
I've been meaning to freshen up the now diluted inhibitor and now seems
to be an excellent opportunity to kill two birds with one stone (give
each rad its very first flush out in over thirty years and bring the
inhibitor back up to strength).

[1] I know it's considered a good idea to give the header tank a dose of
inhibitor to reduce bacterial growth notwithstanding that the anti-
oxidant component will be consumed in pretty short order but I plan to
hold back a quarter litre to add as a final measured dose rather than
just leave it to chance.

--
Johnny B Good