When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with
this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal
height). Has anyone used this technique?

On 27/09/2017 14:57, wrote:
When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with
this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal
height). Has anyone used this technique?

Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's a
gust of wind or a bird hits one. The actual units (Vipers etc) are prone
to damp. The wiring is very labour intensive unless it's done at first
fix stage in a new building. It is possible to make it invisible but
it's hard work.

PIRs are generally OK as long as they are wired (not wireless) and are
dual tech (microwave as well as IR).

I have external beams to protect the parking area. They're pretty good
for that purpose, but not for protecting the house when you aren't there
because of perfectly innocent callers (unless they send a silent alarm
to your phone and/or run the CCTV). The type with two independent
parallel beams are best.

With all alarms remember that one false alarm means that everyone within
earshot will ignore your alarm for the next ten years.

Bill

On 27/09/2017 15:10, Bill Wright wrote:
On 27/09/2017 14:57, wrote:
When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope
with this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary
around the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above
animal height). Has anyone used this technique?

Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's a
gust of wind or a bird hits one. The actual units (Vipers etc) are prone
to damp. The wiring is very labour intensive unless it's done at first
fix stage in a new building. It is possible to make it invisible but
it's hard work.

PIRs are generally OK as long as they are wired (not wireless) and are
dual tech (microwave as well as IR).

I have external beams to protect the parking area. They're pretty good
for that purpose, but not for protecting the house when you aren't there
because of perfectly innocent callers (unless they send a silent alarm
to your phone and/or run the CCTV). The type with two independent
parallel beams are best.

With all alarms remember that one false alarm means that everyone within
earshot will ignore your alarm for the next ten years.

Bill

I was thinking of using sealed reed switches (which is what I used in
the previous house) - how do they get affected by damp?

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof" so I need to
either replace them or change to switches. The problem is still what
happens when people wander about in the night when the alarm is set.

On 27/09/2017 16:59, wrote:
On 27/09/2017 15:10, Bill Wright wrote:
On 27/09/2017 14:57, wrote:
When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed"
alarm with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

It is a lot of work for not much gain. Burglars tend to go for empty
houses anyway and the PIR trigger will go off soon enough to deter them.
My dad had external perimeter reed switches fairly neatly done but it
was a lot of work and wiring to be hidden. I just have window locks.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope
with this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary
around the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above
animal height). Has anyone used this technique?

Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's
a gust of wind or a bird hits one. The actual units (Vipers etc) are
prone to damp. The wiring is very labour intensive unless it's done at
first fix stage in a new building. It is possible to make it invisible
but it's hard work.

PIRs are generally OK as long as they are wired (not wireless) and are
dual tech (microwave as well as IR).

I have external beams to protect the parking area. They're pretty good
for that purpose, but not for protecting the house when you aren't
there because of perfectly innocent callers (unless they send a silent
alarm to your phone and/or run the CCTV). The type with two
independent parallel beams are best.

With all alarms remember that one false alarm means that everyone
within earshot will ignore your alarm for the next ten years.

Bill

I was thinking of using sealed reed switches (which is what I used in
the previous house) - how do they get affected by damp?

They don't but they do sometimes end up stuck closed so that they don't
actually trigger by opening when they should. The panic alarm button on
my system is a magnet and reed switch and failed this way.

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof" so I need to
either replace them or change to switches. The problem is still what
happens when people wander about in the night when the alarm is set.

You mask out all the zones that you are likely to walk through for the
night setting (and/or remember to switch it off when you get up).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 27/09/2017 16:59, wrote:

I was thinking of using sealed reed switches (which is what I used in
the previous house) - how do they get affected by damp?

Window frames are terrible for condensation. It gets into connections.

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof" so I need to
either replace them or change to switches. The problem is still what
happens when people wander about in the night when the alarm is set.

If these people close an internal door it can set off a window contact.

Bill

In article ,
wrote:
I was thinking of using sealed reed switches (which is what I used in
the previous house) - how do they get affected by damp?

They don't. Except perhaps the terminals if kept soaking wet. The switches
themselves are hermetically sealed.

I hate seeing such things.

So here, with sash windows, I drilled a hole in the sill to take the
switch part and a corresponding one in the window rail for the magnet.
Cable chased into the wall as and when the rooms were re-decorated. Same
sort of trick worked for the modern sliding PVC patio doors in the kitchen.

But this house has suspended wood floors and internal stud walls so
relatively easy to hide cables. A modern house with solid everything would
be a different matter.

Didn't bother with the top sash as I doubt many burglars would want to
crawl over the bottom one to get in.

--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

Some claim to only respond to the thermal image of an object over 30kg -
that's a pretty large dog or moggy!

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 18:48:41 +0100, nomail wrote:

On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

Some claim to only respond to the thermal image of an object over 30kg -
that's a pretty large dog or moggy!

Newfoundland.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 27/09/2017 18:48, wrote:
On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

Some claim to only respond to the thermal image of an object over 30kg -
that's a pretty large dog or moggy!

Insensitive then to a crim in a donkey jacket and hood.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 27/09/2017 18:48, wrote:
On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

Some claim to only respond to the thermal image of an object over 30kg -
that's a pretty large dog or moggy!

Insensitive then to a crim in a donkey jacket and hood.

Nope.

On 28/09/2017 04:07, Bill Wright wrote:
On 27/09/2017 18:48, wrote:
On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

Some claim to only respond to the thermal image of an object over 30kg
- that's a pretty large dog or moggy!

Insensitive then to a crim in a donkey jacket and hood.

You can beat a PIR detector but that isn't the way.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Huge wrote:

nomail wrote:

Some claim to only respond to the thermal image of an object over 30kg -
that's a pretty large dog or moggy!

We have one of those in the garage.
A bat set it off. We had it "adjusted". A bat set it off.

Bats have the ability to get closer to the PIR than a dog down on the
ground, presumably they're quite warm when not roosting?

In article ,
Andy Burns writes:
Huge wrote:

nomail wrote:

Some claim to only respond to the thermal image of an object over 30kg -
that's a pretty large dog or moggy!

We have one of those in the garage.
A bat set it off. We had it "adjusted". A bat set it off.

Bats have the ability to get closer to the PIR than a dog down on the
ground, presumably they're quite warm when not roosting?

Bats tend to fly up into corners of rooms (looking for something
they can grab hold of), and that's exactly where PIR's are often
mounted.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

It isn't possible.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

It isn't possible.

It is actually tho it wont register the baby on the floor either.

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

It isn't possible.
Recentl;y I was in a "gents" which used a PIR to turn on the lighting -
fine, but it only sensed you standing up. When I sat down, the light went
out!!

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 28/09/2017 04:06, Bill Wright wrote:
On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

It isn't possible.

Bill
Honeywell seem to think it is:
https://www.security.honeywell.com/u...se/868366.html
.... selectable up to 36kg. Another manufacturer says 30kg.

On 28/09/2017 12:01, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-28, wrote:
On 28/09/2017 04:06, Bill Wright wrote:
On 27/09/2017 17:30, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

The existing PIRs are wired, but aren't "animal proof"

None of them are.

It isn't possible.

Bill
Honeywell seem to think it is:

They're wrong.


"Is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?", to quote a Monty
Python sketch ;-)
Thanks for your opinion, but I'm happy to assume that Honeywell and
other manufacturers know their products and would not make claims that
could be easily demonstrated to be false, if they were.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 27/09/2017 14:57, wrote:
When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with
this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal height).
Has anyone used this technique?

Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's a
gust of wind or a bird hits one. The actual units (Vipers etc) are prone
to damp. The wiring is very labour intensive unless it's done at first fix
stage in a new building. It is possible to make it invisible but it's hard
work.

PIRs are generally OK as long as they are wired (not wireless) and are
dual tech (microwave as well as IR).

I have external beams to protect the parking area. They're pretty good for
that purpose, but not for protecting the house when you aren't there
because of perfectly innocent callers (unless they send a silent alarm to
your phone and/or run the CCTV). The type with two independent parallel
beams are best.

With all alarms remember that one false alarm means that everyone within
earshot will ignore your alarm for the next ten years.

We dont do that with the neighbours alarms. We still turn out do check
if its a false alarm or not, but its only me that does that at 2am etc.

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's a
gust of wind or a bird hits one.

Eh? If you're talking reed switches you'd need a pretty terrible fitting
window before wind would break the circuit. And if things like that are
flapping around in the wind, a PIR might well trigger too.

--
*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/09/2017 00:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's a
gust of wind or a bird hits one.

Eh? If you're talking reed switches you'd need a pretty terrible fitting
window before wind would break the circuit. And if things like that are
flapping around in the wind, a PIR might well trigger too.

Course I'm not talking about simple reed switches. I'm talking about
break glass detectors.

Bill

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
On 29/09/2017 00:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's
a gust of wind or a bird hits one.

Eh? If you're talking reed switches you'd need a pretty terrible
fitting window before wind would break the circuit. And if things like
that are flapping around in the wind, a PIR might well trigger too.

Course I'm not talking about simple reed switches. I'm talking about
break glass detectors.

Ah - I'd not call that a window contact.

--
*Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bill Wright writes:
On 29/09/2017 00:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Personally I'd forget window contacts. They do false alarm if there's a
gust of wind or a bird hits one.

Eh? If you're talking reed switches you'd need a pretty terrible fitting
window before wind would break the circuit. And if things like that are
flapping around in the wind, a PIR might well trigger too.

Course I'm not talking about simple reed switches. I'm talking about
break glass detectors.

Only ever had one false alarm from those in 20 years.
When I came home, there was a perfect imprint of a pigeon
with wings outstretched in white dust on the outside of
the glass, although it hadn't broken the glass.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

What about fog?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all accessible
windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with PIRs. The
current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm with PIRs and
door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window switches
but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a drink
or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal height).
Has anyone used this technique?

On 27/09/2017 16:02, Brian Gaff wrote:
What about fog?
Brian

Good point (snow too) but the problem can be minimised by choice of
power (I'm aware of the laser regs) and distance, and the gate passage
detectors seem to work OK in practice.
There's an interesting article he
http://www.ece.mcmaster.ca/~hranilov.../spie2000b.pdf,
although it's only slightly relevant.

wrote:

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal
height). Has anyone used this technique?

You can get dual-beam detectors, which are supposedly spaced so that
animals/birds/trees in the wind etc will only break one beam, but humans
will break both and set them off, then use corner reflectors to bounce
the beam round your perimeter up to 100m, they use pulsed beams
presumably for anti-tamper.

On 27/09/2017 17:24, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal
height). Has anyone used this technique?

You can get dual-beam detectors, which are supposedly spaced so that
animals/birds/trees in the wind etc will only break one beam, but humans
will break both and set them off, then use corner reflectors to bounce
the beam round your perimeter up to 100m, they use pulsed beams
presumably for anti-tamper.

Thanks, I'll look around. It reminds me of that old heist film where the
actress (supposedly) had to learn to gymnastically gyrate around a room
full of IR beams - Entrapment, I think.

Wrote in message:
When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with
this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal
height). Has anyone used this technique?


The PIR covering the route from the bottom of the stairs to the
panel needs to be an entry/exit zone
..
When you go downstairs, the panel bleeps to remind you to turn off
the alarm before getting the midnight feast.
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 14:57:50 UTC+1, wrote:

When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with
this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal
height). Has anyone used this technique?

Window switches: Enamelled copper wire can be disappeared in a superficial scratch in plaster. Make sure to fit them to part of the frame where distortion & wind can't trigger them. Check the current is in range for the reed relay, they tend to fail if it's too high or too low. They don't of course detect broken glass. You can get glass break detectors too.

PIR: they will sense you if you go there. Full stop.

Beam break: used that long ago, very effective. Can sometimes be placed where you won't walk at night, and where any door shutting will trigger it. Make sure the detector & mirror can't ever slip out of alignment or it'll trigger.

Personally I'd want to treat one detection event as a minor warning, and 2 as a person present rather than 1.


NT

On 27/09/2017 23:42, wrote:
On Wednesday, 27 September 2017 14:57:50 UTC+1, wrote:

When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with
this?

I'm wondering whether it's viable to set-up an external boundary around
the house using infra red or laser beams/detectors (above animal
height). Has anyone used this technique?

Window switches: Enamelled copper wire can be disappeared in a superficial scratch in plaster. Make sure to fit them to part of the frame where distortion & wind can't trigger them. Check the current is in range for the reed relay, they tend to fail if it's too high or too low. They don't of course detect broken glass. You can get glass break detectors too.

PIR: they will sense you if you go there. Full stop.

Beam break: used that long ago, very effective. Can sometimes be placed where you won't walk at night, and where any door shutting will trigger it. Make sure the detector & mirror can't ever slip out of alignment or it'll trigger.

Personally I'd want to treat one detection event as a minor warning, and 2 as a person present rather than 1.


NT

I'd forgotten about enamelled wire - thanks!

In article ,
writes:
Personally I'd want to treat one detection event as a minor warning, and 2 =
as a person present rather than 1.

That's called double-knock.
Some systems are configured so the second event must come from a
different sensor, but that's only viable if you have enough sensors
separately connected to the panel that any intruder is pretty much
guaranteed to trip more than one. It can also delay the alarm so
that instead of sounding before the intruder gains entry, the alarm
is only raised after gaining entry, and that's not necessarily good,
although it significantly reduces false alarms.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 27/09/2017 17:29, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-27, wrote:
When I re-furb'ed my last house I fitted window switches to all
accessible windows and external doors, so didn't need to bother with
PIRs. The current house already has a "professionally installed" alarm
with PIRs and door contacts, but no window contacts.
I was going to replace the PIRs with (a large quantity of) window
switches but am having second thoughts because of the unsightly wiring.

SWMBO is concerned about staying with the PIRs because, if we set the
downstairs ones at night, of what happens if someone goes down for a
drink or a wander around in the night. How does everyone else cope with
this?

This has the same answer as the old joke about the man who goes to his Doctor
and says "It hurts when I do this".

Don't do that, then.


:-) I would like to control what some of my guests do in the night but I
might get into trouble if I tried