It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

--
*I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/08/2017 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?


Maybe more so, as I do not think Ni-Cd have a reputation for bursting
into flames.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable
harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so
contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the
cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe
with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately
after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against
the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and
apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need
the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as
it is made and hard.

I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no
noticeable degradation in their output or life.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 11:18:21 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable
harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so
contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the
cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe
with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately
after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against
the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and
apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need
the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as
it is made and hard.

I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no
noticeable degradation in their output or life.

I should have mentioned that if soldering to Lithium rechargeable
cells this should be done at a low state of charge, they seem to be
quite happy at high temperatures (they are autoclaved at 140degC for
20 minutes when used in surgical tools) but only at low state of
charge.

On 27 Aug 2017 10:37:07 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2017-08-27, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

It's "Ion", not "Iron".

Actually, lithium iron cells do exist (LiFePO4).
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 27/08/2017 11:18, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable
harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so
contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the
cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe
with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately
after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against
the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and
apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need
the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as
it is made and hard.

I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no
noticeable degradation in their output or life.




And wear decent eye protection, just in case.

On 27/08/17 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?


Besides the matter of excess heat, the casing is remarkably resistant to
soldering. The same goes, at least in my experience, for other
rechargeable cells.

You can but the thin metal strip to connect the cells off Ebay and I've
'spot welded' it to the cells with just a couple of bits of thick (2 or
3 mm) copper wire) and a car battery, using a simple wooden holder to
keep the tips of the copper wire may be 2 mm apart. There are several
videos on YouTube. You can make a proper jig/tool but, for the number of
times I need to do it, I just use a 'lash up' as and when.

You can touch the weld almost immediately, I normally make a few spots,
so I assume the heat transfered into the cell is naff all.

There are some interesting videos of homemade spot welders on YouTube,
based on rewound uWave oven transformers. I don't do enough metal work
to need one but they look interesting tools.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

It's "Ion", not "Iron".

Just waiting for some smart arse to notice and comment - without anything
about the thread.

And you certainly didn't disappoint.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 11:18:21 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable
harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so
contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the
cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe
with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately
after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against
the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and
apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need
the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as
it is made and hard.

I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no
noticeable degradation in their output or life.

I should have mentioned that if soldering to Lithium rechargeable
cells this should be done at a low state of charge, they seem to be
quite happy at high temperatures (they are autoclaved at 140degC for
20 minutes when used in surgical tools) but only at low state of
charge.

Thanks Peter. Looks like it's OK, then.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/08/17 16:21, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-27, Graham wrote:
On 27 Aug 2017 10:37:07 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2017-08-27, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

It's "Ion", not "Iron".

Actually, lithium iron cells do exist (LiFePO4).

I'm sure they do, but they aren't what Plowperson is talking about.


And they are referred to as lithium iron phosphate or 'LifePo'
Li-ion tabs are usually alumionium unless tinned brass has been spot
welded to them. Soldering with al flux works.,


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 27/08/2017 11:32, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 11:18:21 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable
harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so
contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the
cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe
with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately
after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against
the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and
apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need
the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as
it is made and hard.

I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no
noticeable degradation in their output or life.

I should have mentioned that if soldering to Lithium rechargeable
cells this should be done at a low state of charge, they seem to be
quite happy at high temperatures (they are autoclaved at 140degC for
20 minutes when used in surgical tools) but only at low state of
charge.

1+

Big iron, do it quickly, no problem. Use 60/40 solder which is nearly
40'C lower melting point than lead free.

Cheers
--
Clive

Graham. wrote:

On 27 Aug 2017 10:37:07 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2017-08-27, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

It's "Ion", not "Iron".

Actually, lithium iron cells do exist (LiFePO4).


And are rechargeable with a voltage conveniently slimllar to lithium
primary cells. But hard to find.


--

Roger Hayter

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 14:06:14 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

On 27/08/17 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?


Besides the matter of excess heat, the casing is remarkably resistant to
soldering. The same goes, at least in my experience, for other
rechargeable cells.

You can but the thin metal strip to connect the cells off Ebay and I've
'spot welded' it to the cells with just a couple of bits of thick (2 or
3 mm) copper wire) and a car battery, using a simple wooden holder to
keep the tips of the copper wire may be 2 mm apart. There are several
videos on YouTube. You can make a proper jig/tool but, for the number of
times I need to do it, I just use a 'lash up' as and when.

You can touch the weld almost immediately, I normally make a few spots,
so I assume the heat transfered into the cell is naff all.

There are some interesting videos of homemade spot welders on YouTube,
based on rewound uWave oven transformers. I don't do enough metal work
to need one but they look interesting tools.


I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent
array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to
act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric
outboard.

Long short, I don't think our usage pattern (the battery used
unpredictably just a few times a year) is worth the cost an
complication, simply for the (admittedly large) weight saving.

The 'complications' and in contrast to LA are that:

1) Li-Ion (and most Li chemistry cells for that matter) need, to
ensure a reasonable life span be stored between uses at a 'storage'
(charge / voltage) level. (By contrast, LA can be left on a smart
float charger 24/7).

This means that if we charge it, take it out but don't use it and if
we aren't going to use it fairly soon, we need to discharge it down to
the storage level again?

2) Because it needs to be stored at a 'storage level', if we decide at
short notice that we fancy going boating, we wont have long to charge
the battery up and whilst we could charge it from storage to full at
1C, that would require an ~80A charger! (By contrast a LA battery
would be ready to go 24/7 and can generally be left unattended and
could use a slow charger. They recommend any Lithium battery not be
left unattended whilst being charged).

3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or
catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is
space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and
especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an
explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only
do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward
happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very
low).

4) To maintain the Li pack properly and for the best life span and
safety I would need a BMS that was capable of continuously passing 30A
(the maximum draw of my current electric outboard) and managing the
cells to a maximum charge of 80% (with balance) and a maximum
discharge of 20% (with cell group protection). It is said that the
worst thing for these cells is a poor BMS. (By contrast I would only
need a 'low voltage' alarm for a LA battery as the only real risk of
an over-discharge is reduced cycle life, or worst case, a damaged
battery. Not an incendiary device going off in my boat). ;-(

All that said, I would still like to put together a quality Li-Ion (or
LiFePO4) 18650 cell pack but not sure if it wouldn't be too needy? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 23:04:31 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent
array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to
act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric
outboard.

Long short, I don't think our usage pattern (the battery used
unpredictably just a few times a year) is worth the cost an
complication, simply for the (admittedly large) weight saving.

The 'complications' and in contrast to LA are that:

1) Li-Ion (and most Li chemistry cells for that matter) need, to
ensure a reasonable life span be stored between uses at a 'storage'
(charge / voltage) level. (By contrast, LA can be left on a smart
float charger 24/7).

This means that if we charge it, take it out but don't use it and if
we aren't going to use it fairly soon, we need to discharge it down to
the storage level again?

2) Because it needs to be stored at a 'storage level', if we decide at
short notice that we fancy going boating, we wont have long to charge
the battery up and whilst we could charge it from storage to full at
1C, that would require an ~80A charger! (By contrast a LA battery
would be ready to go 24/7 and can generally be left unattended and
could use a slow charger. They recommend any Lithium battery not be
left unattended whilst being charged).

3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or
catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is
space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and
especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an
explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only
do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward
happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very
low).

4) To maintain the Li pack properly and for the best life span and
safety I would need a BMS that was capable of continuously passing 30A
(the maximum draw of my current electric outboard) and managing the
cells to a maximum charge of 80% (with balance) and a maximum
discharge of 20% (with cell group protection). It is said that the
worst thing for these cells is a poor BMS. (By contrast I would only
need a 'low voltage' alarm for a LA battery as the only real risk of
an over-discharge is reduced cycle life, or worst case, a damaged
battery. Not an incendiary device going off in my boat). ;-(

All that said, I would still like to put together a quality Li-Ion (or
LiFePO4) 18650 cell pack but not sure if it wouldn't be too needy? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Lead acids can set fire to things with their huge output current, or from poor connections. But they don't need fire to kill you, a battery producing boiling sulphuric acid fumes is no laugh. DAMHIKT.

I see no sense in your plans, the downsides surely outweigh the upsides.


NT

On 27/08/2017 23:04, T i m wrote:

snip

3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or
catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is
space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and
especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an
explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only
do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward
happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very
low).

You need to reassess those claims. If you're going to put this on the
water you will need a boat safety certificate. One of the requirements
with be venting of the batteries.

I can assure you, batteries gas, and the gases given of are a perfect
hydrogen-oxygen mixture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_TnsHu2u4c

I can testify to this, except I was lucky in that the caps flew into the
air and I was covered in just a little acid, still sufficient to eat
through my top (which I should have thoroughly washed in water).

On 27/08/2017 23:53, wrote:
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 23:04:31 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent
array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P)
to act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric
outboard.

Long short, I don't think our usage pattern (the battery used
unpredictably just a few times a year) is worth the cost an
complication, simply for the (admittedly large) weight saving.

The 'complications' and in contrast to LA are that:

1) Li-Ion (and most Li chemistry cells for that matter) need, to
ensure a reasonable life span be stored between uses at a
'storage' (charge / voltage) level. (By contrast, LA can be left on
a smart float charger 24/7).

This means that if we charge it, take it out but don't use it and
if we aren't going to use it fairly soon, we need to discharge it
down to the storage level again?

2) Because it needs to be stored at a 'storage level', if we decide
at short notice that we fancy going boating, we wont have long to
charge the battery up and whilst we could charge it from storage to
full at 1C, that would require an ~80A charger! (By contrast a LA
battery would be ready to go 24/7 and can generally be left
unattended and could use a slow charger. They recommend any Lithium
battery not be left unattended whilst being charged).

3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and /
or catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn
is space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination)
and especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an
explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would
only do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything
untoward happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be
very very low).

4) To maintain the Li pack properly and for the best life span and
safety I would need a BMS that was capable of continuously passing
30A (the maximum draw of my current electric outboard) and managing
the cells to a maximum charge of 80% (with balance) and a maximum
discharge of 20% (with cell group protection). It is said that the
worst thing for these cells is a poor BMS. (By contrast I would
only need a 'low voltage' alarm for a LA battery as the only real
risk of an over-discharge is reduced cycle life, or worst case, a
damaged battery. Not an incendiary device going off in my boat).
;-(

All that said, I would still like to put together a quality Li-Ion
(or LiFePO4) 18650 cell pack but not sure if it wouldn't be too
needy? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Lead acids can set fire to things with their huge output current, or
from poor connections. But they don't need fire to kill you, a
battery producing boiling sulphuric acid fumes is no laugh. DAMHIKT.

I see no sense in your plans, the downsides surely outweigh the
upsides.

If I recall correctly, where the main propulsion is electric, the CaRT
licence is much cheaper. BICBW.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 15:53:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 23:04:31 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent
array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to
act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric
outboard.

Long short, I don't think our usage pattern (the battery used
unpredictably just a few times a year) is worth the cost an
complication, simply for the (admittedly large) weight saving.

The 'complications' and in contrast to LA are that:

1) Li-Ion (and most Li chemistry cells for that matter) need, to
ensure a reasonable life span be stored between uses at a 'storage'
(charge / voltage) level. (By contrast, LA can be left on a smart
float charger 24/7).

This means that if we charge it, take it out but don't use it and if
we aren't going to use it fairly soon, we need to discharge it down to
the storage level again?

2) Because it needs to be stored at a 'storage level', if we decide at
short notice that we fancy going boating, we wont have long to charge
the battery up and whilst we could charge it from storage to full at
1C, that would require an ~80A charger! (By contrast a LA battery
would be ready to go 24/7 and can generally be left unattended and
could use a slow charger. They recommend any Lithium battery not be
left unattended whilst being charged).

3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or
catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is
space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and
especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an
explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only
do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward
happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very
low).

4) To maintain the Li pack properly and for the best life span and
safety I would need a BMS that was capable of continuously passing 30A
(the maximum draw of my current electric outboard) and managing the
cells to a maximum charge of 80% (with balance) and a maximum
discharge of 20% (with cell group protection). It is said that the
worst thing for these cells is a poor BMS. (By contrast I would only
need a 'low voltage' alarm for a LA battery as the only real risk of
an over-discharge is reduced cycle life, or worst case, a damaged
battery. Not an incendiary device going off in my boat). ;-(

All that said, I would still like to put together a quality Li-Ion (or
LiFePO4) 18650 cell pack but not sure if it wouldn't be too needy? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Lead acids can set fire to things with their huge output current,

As can Li, but not generally on their own simply because you have
over-discharged them.

Poor connections.

Sue, but I'll be wiring it all up so there won't be any of those. ;-)

But they don't need fire to kill you, a battery producing boiling sulphuric acid fumes is no laugh.

Whilst I'm not saying there are *no* risks, I'm saying there are much
fewer risks than say with Li. Like, I can't remember where I read so
much advice about you *must* never leave a lead acid battery on charge
unmonitored or that you can buy a fire safe / bunker for charging,
transporting or storing lead acid batteries in.

DAMHIKT.

I don't think I need to weg.

I see no sense in your plans, the downsides surely outweigh the upsides.

Such as? I thought I made the pros and cons pretty clear and were
no-brainers for our needs?

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 00:10:11 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 27/08/2017 23:53, wrote:
snip


I see no sense in your plans, the downsides surely outweigh the
upsides.

If I recall correctly, where the main propulsion is electric, the CaRT
licence is much cheaper. BICBW.

No, you are right, for some authorities. I don't think the Canal and
River Trust that cover the lies of the Lea and Stort differentiate
between IC and electric propulsion (both come under 'Powered Craft),
but I believe the Norfolk equivalent do (with a 50% licence duty
reduction etc).

I did email the C&RT re how they define 'powered' craft.

Ok, we'll assume they wouldn't consider a person rowing 'powered', nor
sailing but what if the sails were a windmill of some kind and driving
a propeller or paddle wheels?

What if the human was not rowing but pedaling and that was driving the
oars, or paddle wheels or a propeller?

What if that human pedaling was driving a dynamo and that was driving
an electric motor (and a propeller or paddle wheels)?

What if there was a battery that was put into the boat with no charge,
then charged by the human pedaling and then used to run the drive ...
or charged a super capacitor (that isn't a 'battery') that in turn
powered the craft.

Or what about the addition of solar panels ... etc etc.

My point to them was that whilst most pre-charged electric propulsion
would have caused some pollution in gaining that charge, the
'waterside emissions' and the risk of chemical pollution (directly to
the water) via petrol or lubrication oil was mostly reduced to zero.
That along with the near silence of most electric propulsion should
(IMHO) give it a reduced licence fee.

I understand we are still using the waterways (and possibly locks etc)
and so should contribute *something* (towards their upkeep).

But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use
my boat! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 00:09:10 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 27/08/2017 23:04, T i m wrote:

snip

3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or
catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is
space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and
especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an
explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only
do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward
happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very
low).

You need to reassess those claims. If you're going to put this on the
water you will need a boat safety certificate.

The boat already has one from the builder but doesn't need any others
(regarding the electric propulsion) because none of it is permanent.

One of the requirements
with be venting of the batteries.

Not really an issue in an open dinghy. ;-)

I can assure you, batteries gas, and the gases given of are a perfect
hydrogen-oxygen mixture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_TnsHu2u4c

Yes, especially with a wet / flooded battery and conventional (non
recombination) vented caps. And also typically only when there is
excess (or too high a level of) charge and the surplus energy is
dissipated by 'gassing' (liberating hydrogen). Again, as I won't be
charging the batteries in my 3m folding dinghy and the batteries don't
have flooded cells but the electrolyte held in solid suspension in the
form of a gel (to a level where if you smashed the bottom corner off
the battery, *no* electrolyte would leak out) ... and the caps
recombine any gasses liberated by any overcharging and convert it back
into a liquid (not that there is any in these gel batteries and they
are 'electrolyte starved' ...) I think I should be ok. ;-)

And that should be just as well as they are typically what you find in
most mobility scooters (except those now going over to Li-Ion).

I can testify to this, except I was lucky in that the caps flew into the
air and I was covered in just a little acid, still sufficient to eat
through my top (which I should have thoroughly washed in water).

Yup, been there and done that (as a kid) but I was doing all the
things you shouldn't.

Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they
are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the
leads.

Now, you could smell when the 8 x 200Ah 6V traction lead (wet) acid
batteries were fully charged in my electric Moke from quite a way off
(downwind). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 00:09:10 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

snip

You need to reassess those claims. If you're going to put this on the
water you will need a boat safety certificate. One of the requirements
with be venting of the batteries.


FYI (&FWIW etc):

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/653.pdf
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/682.pdf

By 'electrical system' they say they mean 'permanently fixed', as in a
cabin cruiser etc, not just a battery connected to an outboard motor.

FWIW, all my systems are all protected by both a resettable fuse and a
two pole disconnection (Anderson SB50, just outside the battery
boxes).

If all else fails it can be thrown overboard and unlike Lithium, that
won't make matters worse. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

More so. Assuming of course they have no tags for the purpose. The power
density of Li is greater and although they are designed to run hot,
localised heating is not a good thing. They can tend to cause a fire if
they short internally.


Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

--
*I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Hmm, Well you seem to be the lucky one. I suppose its all about minimising
the physical and heat induced stress. I don't know how mechanically solid
they are, but one needs to avoid use of an ordinary vice. A circular or
whatever shape the cell is, clamp holding over a large area would seem to be
best. Li batteries came out after I lost my sight, so I only have other
peoples experiences to draw on there.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably
transfers less heat to the inside.

Does the same apply to Lithium Iron?

I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable
harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so
contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the
cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe
with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately
after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against
the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and
apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need
the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as
it is made and hard.

I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no
noticeable degradation in their output or life.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote:

Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they
are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the
leads.

I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened:

Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top
completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere! A check in the shop
showed the charging system to be ok. Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new
battery, ran as before for years.

So when I charge even a small (say: 6 Volt 2 Ah gel cell), I put it where it
bursting, leaking, or dribbling acid won't be more than a nuisance.


Thomas Prufer

On 28/08/2017 01:05, T i m wrote:

But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use
my boat! ;-)

Sounds like you are to me.
I want a subsidy from others so I don't have to pay as much is pretty
much the same as harry IMO.

The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry
has done, they don't want you to have a boat.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 08:52:15 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Hmm, Well you seem to be the lucky one.

Luck has nothing to do with it, just a sensible approach to the
problem.

I suppose its all about minimising
the physical and heat induced stress.

Correct, the abrasion and cleaning of the contact area together with
the use of a non corrosive flux, tin/lead solder and a big hot iron
means the solder joint is made quickly and reliably. Cooling quickly
afterwards minimising heat stress within the cell. Don't forget these
cells are generally rated for up to 80degC and soldering will take
them nowhere near there. The risk is not heat degradation of the cell
but possible damage to the base insulator and top sealing plate. This
risk is minimised by making the joint very quickly and cooling it
quickly.

I don't know how mechanically solid
they are, but one needs to avoid use of an ordinary vice. A circular or
whatever shape the cell is, clamp holding over a large area would seem to be
best. Li batteries came out after I lost my sight, so I only have other
peoples experiences to draw on there.

As most people don't have three hands the "clamp" is only to hold the
battery in position while you solder the wire to it, its usually
nothing more complicated than an elastic band and a few scraps of
wood.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent
array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to
act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric
outboard.

My thinking too - but for a much loved 18v drill which has a right angle
attachment. So not easy to just buy new at a reasonable price. I have
three batteries, and two are dead. The third was re-celled professionally,
but doesn't work as well as a OEM one did - in terms of maximum drill
torque.

My vaping device(s) use 18650 and they are very good value for their
capacity, and being smaller than NI-Cads would fit inside a battery pack
easily. The charger would obviously require modification too.

--
*Frustration is trying to find your glasses without your glasses.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:01:22 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 28/08/2017 01:05, T i m wrote:

But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use
my boat! ;-)

Sounds like you are to me.

Well, it might to you because you are easily confused. I'm going to
take my batteries round to harry's anyway so he can charge them on his
panels, as I'm already paying him. ;-)

I want a subsidy from others so I don't have to pay as much is pretty
much the same as harry IMO.

Of course it is (to you). There is a massive difference between
forcing other people to pay for something that you use AND GAIN
FINANTIALLY FROM personally ... and off-setting the (in my case
'arbitrary) cost of making use of an existing recourse because of the
benefits my use will bring (and many of the waterway authorities seem
to agree because they do reduce the licence fee for those who don't
pollute the water and air (fuels and oil in the water and fumes and
noise in the air). Similarly I don't use many of the services the
licence helps support, like pump-out, hard moorings, water / electric
hookup or even locks for that matter (as we can portage round).

Part of the licence fee will also be used to 'clean up' the pollution
made directly into the water by spilt fuel, leaking oil or underwater
exhausts. I won't be doing any of that and I won't be using the
waterways any differently than those who row (at the point of use
etc). Many authorities do indeed treat electrically propelled boats in
the same way as they might sailing or rowing craft or at least reduce
the cost.

"The Authority encourages more environmentally-friendly forms of
boating with reduced charges for electrically propelled motor craft."

http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/b...iendly-boating


The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry
has done,

But all under false pretences and using questionable ethics.

they don't want you to have a boat.

Of course they do. We are positively encouraged to make use of the
facilities open to all of us (not just those who happen to own a roof
that faces in the right direction and are looking for a cash cow).

'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the
towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for
years and the walkers and cyclists (who create most of the wear)
contribute nothing (but I'm happy to subsidise them). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:32:00 +0200, Thomas Prufer
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote:

Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they
are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the
leads.

I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened:

Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top
completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere!

I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte
starved AGM or Gel).

A check in the shop
showed the charging system to be ok.

How old was the battery OOI?

Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new
battery, ran as before for years.

So no spontaneous fire then?

So when I charge even a small (say: 6 Volt 2 Ah gel cell), I put it where it
bursting, leaking, or dribbling acid won't be more than a nuisance.

If it's a proper 'gel' battery there should be any of that under any
circumstances (however, some manufacturers incorrectly mark their AGM
cells as 'Gel', and whilst there is a slightly greater risk of
electrolyte getting out, there isn't very much of it as it's
'absorbed' in the glass mat).

Anyway, my comparison was really the RW risks of LA versus Lithium,
especially Li-Po and also including Li-Ion.

Plenty of videos online of perfectly healthy Lithium cells
spontaneously combusting simply due to overcharge or previously being
damaged. Not something most LA batteries will do.

Like I said, I'm not (and never have) said their are no risks in any
energy storage technology, just that there are some that are naturally
more volatile than other and especially if you put them in contact
with water. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:38:26 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent
array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to
act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric
outboard.

My thinking too - but for a much loved 18v drill which has a right angle
attachment. So not easy to just buy new at a reasonable price. I have
three batteries, and two are dead. The third was re-celled professionally,
but doesn't work as well as a OEM one did - in terms of maximum drill
torque.

My vaping device(s) use 18650 and they are very good value for their
capacity, and being smaller than NI-Cads would fit inside a battery pack
easily. The charger would obviously require modification too.


And you might need a Battery Management System, a PCB that manages the
charge, cell voltage balancing and over discharge protection. It's the
small PCB you find in all such battery packs (like the portable phone
chargers, laptops and Li-Ion drills etc).

That's not to say you can't do without a BMS (many geeks do) but you
then need to hook up a suitable charger to managing the charge /
balance and some form of cutoff or alarm to manage the over discharge.

That's why many Lithium powered tools just 'cut off', rather than
gradually slowing and stopping as with Nicad or NiMh etc.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:50:26 +0100, T i m wrote:

I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte
starved AGM or Gel).

The battery hadn't had water added in at least the past months.

How old was the battery OOI?

A few years. This was a diesel starter battery, and was useful in the previous
winter.

So no spontaneous fire then?

No.

The AAA man said that bursting batteries happened off and on, usually due to the
charging system being defective and cooking the battery at 16 or 18 Volts. He'd
previously never seen it happen on a correctly working charging system.

If it's a proper 'gel' battery there should be any of that under any
circumstances (however, some manufacturers incorrectly mark their AGM
cells as 'Gel', and whilst there is a slightly greater risk of
electrolyte getting out, there isn't very much of it as it's
'absorbed' in the glass mat).

I just place the charging batteries a lot more carefully than previously.

Anyway, my comparison was really the RW risks of LA versus Lithium,
especially Li-Po and also including Li-Ion.

I have friends that use Lithium batteries in their motorbikes. It saves a lot of
weight, which is great on a racing bike, and makes sense if you've also laid out
on the titanium exhaust and whatnot. Downside is the price, they are
*expensive*!


Thomas Prufer

On 28/08/2017 10:50, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:32:00 +0200, Thomas Prufer
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote:

Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they
are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the
leads.

I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened:

Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top
completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere!

I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte
starved AGM or Gel).

A check in the shop
showed the charging system to be ok.

How old was the battery OOI?

Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new
battery, ran as before for years.

So no spontaneous fire then?

An internal short from a distorted plate is all that is needed. A good
reason to avoid using undersized batteries.

There is no reason why a 'fire' should break out, once the gases have
been consumed in the explosion.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:26:20 +0200, Thomas Prufer
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:50:26 +0100, T i m wrote:

I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte
starved AGM or Gel).

The battery hadn't had water added in at least the past months.

Sorry, no, there are 'wet' cell lead acid batteries and AGM / Gel /
sealed where there is no opportunity to add (distilled) water.

How old was the battery OOI?

A few years. This was a diesel starter battery, and was useful in the previous
winter.

Ok.

So no spontaneous fire then?

No.

Ok. ;-)

The AAA man said that bursting batteries happened off and on, usually due to the
charging system being defective and cooking the battery at 16 or 18 Volts. He'd
previously never seen it happen on a correctly working charging system.

It can also happen if an internal cell link had eroded away (and / or
fractures) and causes a spark just after the cell has been charging
for a while.

If it's a proper 'gel' battery there should be any of that under any
circumstances (however, some manufacturers incorrectly mark their AGM
cells as 'Gel', and whilst there is a slightly greater risk of
electrolyte getting out, there isn't very much of it as it's
'absorbed' in the glass mat).

I just place the charging batteries a lot more carefully than previously.

Understood.

Anyway, my comparison was really the RW risks of LA versus Lithium,
especially Li-Po and also including Li-Ion.

I have friends that use Lithium batteries in their motorbikes. It saves a lot of
weight, which is great on a racing bike,

Agreed and about the only time they are of a direct advantage IMHO.
;-)

It's the same with my electric outboard project. Going to (say) Li-Ion
would save a lot of weight but with a lot of extra cost, not just in
the battery itself but the power and stability of the chargers, given
most people wouldn't want to 'sit around' supervising their batteries
being charged. Plus the intermittent usage pattern adds to the
unsuitability of Li for my needs.

and makes sense if you've also laid out
on the titanium exhaust and whatnot.

Yup, in the most part I see that sort of stuff as just bling (on road
bikes etc). e.g. If you are using the bike regularly and the battery
and charging systems are correctly proportioned and matched to the
charging system then there generally isn't an issue. Leaving a LA
battery uncharged causes it to sulphate and then you just end up with
a 'dead' or weak battery. Lithium can suffer neglect similarly and
most have to have some form of BMS (built inside what looks like a
traditional battery case etc) and so you then have the extra
complexity of that (MTBF), plus the potential of a charging system
that isn't correctly matched to the battery. ;-(

Downside is the price, they are
*expensive*!

Indeed. However, with Tesla and the Chinese ramping up their Lithium
battery manufacturing, that should improve in the future. ;-)

Lead acid does seem to suit more of a binary system, where it's either
fully charged or flat (50% DOD) and can be charged and left (fully)
charged ready for use. Li OTOH, if to be left for a prolonged (?)
period needs to be put into a storage charge level and maintained at
that level, so never 'ready' for instant use.

Like I said though, I'm still keen to give Li-Ion a try, even if only
for the S&G's. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


http://fortune.com/2017/06/28/elon-musk-china-battery/

https://www.ft.com/content/8c94a2f6-...e-a5e3738f9ae4

On 28/08/2017 10:41, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:01:22 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 28/08/2017 01:05, T i m wrote:

But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use
my boat! ;-)

Sounds like you are to me.

Well, it might to you because you are easily confused. I'm going to
take my batteries round to harry's anyway so he can charge them on his
panels, as I'm already paying him. ;-)

I want a subsidy from others so I don't have to pay as much is pretty
much the same as harry IMO.

Of course it is (to you). There is a massive difference between
forcing other people to pay for something that you use AND GAIN
FINANTIALLY FROM personally ...

You are gaining financially if you don't pay as much.

and off-setting the (in my case
'arbitrary) cost of making use of an existing recourse because of the
benefits my use will bring (and many of the waterway authorities seem
to agree because they do reduce the licence fee for those who don't
pollute the water and air (fuels and oil in the water and fumes and
noise in the air). Similarly I don't use many of the services the
licence helps support, like pump-out, hard moorings, water / electric
hookup or even locks for that matter (as we can portage round).

Part of the licence fee will also be used to 'clean up' the pollution
made directly into the water by spilt fuel, leaking oil or underwater
exhausts. I won't be doing any of that and I won't be using the
waterways any differently than those who row (at the point of use
etc). Many authorities do indeed treat electrically propelled boats in
the same way as they might sailing or rowing craft or at least reduce
the cost.

"The Authority encourages more environmentally-friendly forms of
boating with reduced charges for electrically propelled motor craft."

http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/b...iendly-boating


The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry
has done,

But all under false pretences and using questionable ethics.

It does appear that way now but not when it started.


they don't want you to have a boat.

Of course they do. We are positively encouraged to make use of the
facilities open to all of us (not just those who happen to own a roof
that faces in the right direction and are looking for a cash cow).

'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the
towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for
years and the walkers and cyclists (who create most of the wear)
contribute nothing (but I'm happy to subsidise them). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:24:35 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 28/08/2017 10:50, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:32:00 +0200, Thomas Prufer
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote:

Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they
are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the
leads.

I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened:

Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top
completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere!

I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte
starved AGM or Gel).

A check in the shop
showed the charging system to be ok.

How old was the battery OOI?

Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new
battery, ran as before for years.

So no spontaneous fire then?

An internal short from a distorted plate is all that is needed. A good
reason to avoid using undersized batteries.

And with a Lithium cell they can spontaneously combust simply done to
impurities in their construction?

There is no reason why a 'fire' should break out, once the gases have
been consumed in the explosion.

With a lead acid, agreed. With Lithium the Internet is littered with
cases where fires have broken out and peoples houses and cars have
been burnt out. It's not the battery that burns the house down, the
battery is a source of ignition (sometimes completely spontaneously)
and that then sets fire to something else.

How many people have got away with just burns to their clothes or
scorched holes in / on their furniture because their phone or vape
battery has overheated and self combusted?

Galaxy Note 7 anyone ... hardly cheap or nasty as things technical go
eh?

I've probably played with and used regularly more lead acid batteries
than most here (200Ah x 48V worth in my electric car and regularly
racing LA based vehicles plus all the standby batteries from a
commercial telephone exchange, not to mention using them portably for
charging RC cars and camping etc) and whilst my observations are just
a sample of one, I don't know personally of anyone who has had a LA
battery do them any harm but know of one person personally who would
not have a house now, had he not been lucky because of LiPo fires (and
he personally knows of several others who have seen Li-Po batteries go
up in flames).

Again, I'm not saying LA is without risk, just that historically the
risks have been pretty low and the consequences restricted to a very
small radius.

And given how long the lead acid battery has been around (they were
powering EV's at the turn of the century), it's no wonder they are
still the std issue in most motorbikes, cars, trucks, caravans and
boats (SLI) etc.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:15:14 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

snip

Of course it is (to you). There is a massive difference between
forcing other people to pay for something that you use AND GAIN
FINANTIALLY FROM personally ...

You are gaining financially if you don't pay as much.

You are talking bollox again. ;-)

Not paying as much means just that. You aren't adding anything *extra*
to the pot, you just aren't taking as much as you otherwise might.

snip

The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry
has done,

But all under false pretences and using questionable ethics.

It does appear that way now but not when it started.

I thought that when it started. shrug Anything that is fundamentally
good / sound will generally stand on it's own two feet.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:41:38 +0100, T i m wrote:


'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the
towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for
years
Generally Horses are prohibited from using most canal towpaths so
using a horse drawn boat to navigate everywhere would be awkward.
There are exceptions , some sections of towpaths have been
incorporated into bridle paths and there are a few horse drawn
tourist/ trip boats that have been granted the right permissions for
use of a regular section.
There are often complaints from the horsey community that this is so
and they frequently wail that the Towpath was built for horses.
Ignoring the fact that the horses were not being ridden and proceeded
at a gentle pace operated by people who knew that for the system to
work a degree of cooperation was required with each other aided by the
fact that canal towpaths then were not legally accessible by the
public.
Now there are with all sorts of users the last thing needed is the
towpaths being cut up by horses hooves from gaggles of teenage girls
and their mothers pushing their way past other users.

G.Harman

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:41:38 +0100, T i m wrote:


'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the
towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for
years
Generally Horses are prohibited from using most canal towpaths so
using a horse drawn boat to navigate everywhere would be awkward.
There are exceptions , some sections of towpaths have been
incorporated into bridle paths and there are a few horse drawn
tourist/ trip boats that have been granted the right permissions for
use of a regular section.
There are often complaints from the horsey community that this is so
and they frequently wail that the Towpath was built for horses.
Ignoring the fact that the horses were not being ridden and proceeded
at a gentle pace operated by people who knew that for the system to
work a degree of cooperation was required with each other aided by the
fact that canal towpaths then were not legally accessible by the
public.
Now there are with all sorts of users the last thing needed is the
towpaths being cut up by horses hooves from gaggles of teenage girls
and their mothers pushing their way past other users.

easy; make the towpaths only for Shires & Clydesdales.

G.Harman

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:05:37 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:41:38 +0100, T i m wrote:


'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the
towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for
years
Generally Horses are prohibited from using most canal towpaths so
using a horse drawn boat to navigate everywhere would be awkward.

Oh, shame. ;-(

There are exceptions , some sections of towpaths have been
incorporated into bridle paths and there are a few horse drawn
tourist/ trip boats that have been granted the right permissions for
use of a regular section.

Ok.

There are often complaints from the horsey community that this is so
and they frequently wail that the Towpath was built for horses.

Quite?

Ignoring the fact that the horses were not being ridden and proceeded
at a gentle pace operated by people who knew that for the system to
work a degree of cooperation was required with each other aided by the
fact that canal towpaths then were not legally accessible by the
public.

Ah.

Now there are with all sorts of users the last thing needed is the
towpaths being cut up by horses hooves from gaggles of teenage girls
and their mothers pushing their way past other users.

Quite. Thanks (as usual) for the background. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:19:16 +0100, charles
wrote:


Generally Horses are prohibited from using most canal towpaths so
using a horse drawn boat to navigate everywhere would be awkward.
There are exceptions

Now there are with all sorts of users the last thing needed is the
towpaths being cut up by horses hooves from gaggles of teenage girls
and their mothers pushing their way past other users.

easy; make the towpaths only for Shires & Clydesdales.


They tended to be too big for use on most UK canals. When Horses were
used as motive power they tended be something smaller both to fit
under the many low bridges and pass each other on the towpaths, Mules
were sometimes used instead of Horses .
The bigger breeds were sometimes used on canals where barges rather
than narrow boats were able to be used where things were engineered
with larger proportions anyway.

G.Harman

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 19:33:01 +0100, wrote:

snip

They tended to be too big for use on most UK canals. When Horses were
used as motive power they tended be something smaller both to fit
under the many low bridges and pass each other on the towpaths, Mules
were sometimes used instead of Horses .
The bigger breeds were sometimes used on canals where barges rather
than narrow boats were able to be used where things were engineered
with larger proportions anyway.

Didn't some bridges across rivers and canals gave a gap in the middle
so the horse drawn tow-rope could pass though as the horses crossed
sides?

Cheers, T i m