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Soldering re-chargable cells.
It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat
can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? -- *I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 27/08/2017 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? Maybe more so, as I do not think Ni-Cd have a reputation for bursting into flames. :) |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as it is made and hard. I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no noticeable degradation in their output or life. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 11:18:21 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote: On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as it is made and hard. I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no noticeable degradation in their output or life. I should have mentioned that if soldering to Lithium rechargeable cells this should be done at a low state of charge, they seem to be quite happy at high temperatures (they are autoclaved at 140degC for 20 minutes when used in surgical tools) but only at low state of charge. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 27 Aug 2017 10:37:07 GMT, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-27, Peter Parry wrote: On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? It's "Ion", not "Iron". Actually, lithium iron cells do exist (LiFePO4). -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 27/08/2017 11:18, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as it is made and hard. I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no noticeable degradation in their output or life. And wear decent eye protection, just in case. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 27/08/17 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? Besides the matter of excess heat, the casing is remarkably resistant to soldering. The same goes, at least in my experience, for other rechargeable cells. You can but the thin metal strip to connect the cells off Ebay and I've 'spot welded' it to the cells with just a couple of bits of thick (2 or 3 mm) copper wire) and a car battery, using a simple wooden holder to keep the tips of the copper wire may be 2 mm apart. There are several videos on YouTube. You can make a proper jig/tool but, for the number of times I need to do it, I just use a 'lash up' as and when. You can touch the weld almost immediately, I normally make a few spots, so I assume the heat transfered into the cell is naff all. There are some interesting videos of homemade spot welders on YouTube, based on rewound uWave oven transformers. I don't do enough metal work to need one but they look interesting tools. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
In article ,
Huge wrote: Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? It's "Ion", not "Iron". Just waiting for some smart arse to notice and comment - without anything about the thread. And you certainly didn't disappoint. -- *If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
In article ,
Peter Parry wrote: On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 11:18:21 +0100, Peter Parry wrote: On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as it is made and hard. I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no noticeable degradation in their output or life. I should have mentioned that if soldering to Lithium rechargeable cells this should be done at a low state of charge, they seem to be quite happy at high temperatures (they are autoclaved at 140degC for 20 minutes when used in surgical tools) but only at low state of charge. Thanks Peter. Looks like it's OK, then. -- *The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 27/08/17 16:21, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-27, Graham wrote: On 27 Aug 2017 10:37:07 GMT, Huge wrote: On 2017-08-27, Peter Parry wrote: On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? It's "Ion", not "Iron". Actually, lithium iron cells do exist (LiFePO4). I'm sure they do, but they aren't what Plowperson is talking about. And they are referred to as lithium iron phosphate or 'LifePo' Li-ion tabs are usually alumionium unless tinned brass has been spot welded to them. Soldering with al flux works., -- Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend. "Saki" |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 27/08/2017 11:32, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 11:18:21 +0100, Peter Parry wrote: On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? I've soldered NiCd, NiMH and Lithium cells without any noticeable harmful effect on the cells. You need a big hot soldering iron so contact time is minimised and some makeshift method of holding the cells upright. Abrade the cell top and bottom with sandpaper, wipe with IPA, put a drop of rosin flux on and tin each end. Immediately after finishing each application of solder hold a wet cloth against the join to cool it down. Tin the wire you are going to attach and apply the wire and solder together to the cell (which is why you need the battery "clamp") . Again press a wet cloth on the join as soon as it is made and hard. I've never had any later leakage of any cell doing this and no noticeable degradation in their output or life. I should have mentioned that if soldering to Lithium rechargeable cells this should be done at a low state of charge, they seem to be quite happy at high temperatures (they are autoclaved at 140degC for 20 minutes when used in surgical tools) but only at low state of charge. 1+ Big iron, do it quickly, no problem. Use 60/40 solder which is nearly 40'C lower melting point than lead free. Cheers -- Clive |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
Graham. wrote:
On 27 Aug 2017 10:37:07 GMT, Huge wrote: On 2017-08-27, Peter Parry wrote: On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 10:41:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? It's "Ion", not "Iron". Actually, lithium iron cells do exist (LiFePO4). And are rechargeable with a voltage conveniently slimllar to lithium primary cells. But hard to find. -- Roger Hayter |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 14:06:14 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:
On 27/08/17 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? Besides the matter of excess heat, the casing is remarkably resistant to soldering. The same goes, at least in my experience, for other rechargeable cells. You can but the thin metal strip to connect the cells off Ebay and I've 'spot welded' it to the cells with just a couple of bits of thick (2 or 3 mm) copper wire) and a car battery, using a simple wooden holder to keep the tips of the copper wire may be 2 mm apart. There are several videos on YouTube. You can make a proper jig/tool but, for the number of times I need to do it, I just use a 'lash up' as and when. You can touch the weld almost immediately, I normally make a few spots, so I assume the heat transfered into the cell is naff all. There are some interesting videos of homemade spot welders on YouTube, based on rewound uWave oven transformers. I don't do enough metal work to need one but they look interesting tools. I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric outboard. Long short, I don't think our usage pattern (the battery used unpredictably just a few times a year) is worth the cost an complication, simply for the (admittedly large) weight saving. The 'complications' and in contrast to LA are that: 1) Li-Ion (and most Li chemistry cells for that matter) need, to ensure a reasonable life span be stored between uses at a 'storage' (charge / voltage) level. (By contrast, LA can be left on a smart float charger 24/7). This means that if we charge it, take it out but don't use it and if we aren't going to use it fairly soon, we need to discharge it down to the storage level again? 2) Because it needs to be stored at a 'storage level', if we decide at short notice that we fancy going boating, we wont have long to charge the battery up and whilst we could charge it from storage to full at 1C, that would require an ~80A charger! (By contrast a LA battery would be ready to go 24/7 and can generally be left unattended and could use a slow charger. They recommend any Lithium battery not be left unattended whilst being charged). 3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very low). 4) To maintain the Li pack properly and for the best life span and safety I would need a BMS that was capable of continuously passing 30A (the maximum draw of my current electric outboard) and managing the cells to a maximum charge of 80% (with balance) and a maximum discharge of 20% (with cell group protection). It is said that the worst thing for these cells is a poor BMS. (By contrast I would only need a 'low voltage' alarm for a LA battery as the only real risk of an over-discharge is reduced cycle life, or worst case, a damaged battery. Not an incendiary device going off in my boat). ;-( All that said, I would still like to put together a quality Li-Ion (or LiFePO4) 18650 cell pack but not sure if it wouldn't be too needy? ;-( Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Sunday, 27 August 2017 23:04:31 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric outboard. Long short, I don't think our usage pattern (the battery used unpredictably just a few times a year) is worth the cost an complication, simply for the (admittedly large) weight saving. The 'complications' and in contrast to LA are that: 1) Li-Ion (and most Li chemistry cells for that matter) need, to ensure a reasonable life span be stored between uses at a 'storage' (charge / voltage) level. (By contrast, LA can be left on a smart float charger 24/7). This means that if we charge it, take it out but don't use it and if we aren't going to use it fairly soon, we need to discharge it down to the storage level again? 2) Because it needs to be stored at a 'storage level', if we decide at short notice that we fancy going boating, we wont have long to charge the battery up and whilst we could charge it from storage to full at 1C, that would require an ~80A charger! (By contrast a LA battery would be ready to go 24/7 and can generally be left unattended and could use a slow charger. They recommend any Lithium battery not be left unattended whilst being charged). 3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very low). 4) To maintain the Li pack properly and for the best life span and safety I would need a BMS that was capable of continuously passing 30A (the maximum draw of my current electric outboard) and managing the cells to a maximum charge of 80% (with balance) and a maximum discharge of 20% (with cell group protection). It is said that the worst thing for these cells is a poor BMS. (By contrast I would only need a 'low voltage' alarm for a LA battery as the only real risk of an over-discharge is reduced cycle life, or worst case, a damaged battery. Not an incendiary device going off in my boat). ;-( All that said, I would still like to put together a quality Li-Ion (or LiFePO4) 18650 cell pack but not sure if it wouldn't be too needy? ;-( Cheers, T i m Lead acids can set fire to things with their huge output current, or from poor connections. But they don't need fire to kill you, a battery producing boiling sulphuric acid fumes is no laugh. DAMHIKT. I see no sense in your plans, the downsides surely outweigh the upsides. NT |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 27/08/2017 23:04, T i m wrote:
snip 3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very low). You need to reassess those claims. If you're going to put this on the water you will need a boat safety certificate. One of the requirements with be venting of the batteries. I can assure you, batteries gas, and the gases given of are a perfect hydrogen-oxygen mixture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_TnsHu2u4c I can testify to this, except I was lucky in that the caps flew into the air and I was covered in just a little acid, still sufficient to eat through my top (which I should have thoroughly washed in water). |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
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Soldering re-chargable cells.
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Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 00:10:11 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/08/2017 23:53, wrote: snip I see no sense in your plans, the downsides surely outweigh the upsides. If I recall correctly, where the main propulsion is electric, the CaRT licence is much cheaper. BICBW. No, you are right, for some authorities. I don't think the Canal and River Trust that cover the lies of the Lea and Stort differentiate between IC and electric propulsion (both come under 'Powered Craft), but I believe the Norfolk equivalent do (with a 50% licence duty reduction etc). I did email the C&RT re how they define 'powered' craft. Ok, we'll assume they wouldn't consider a person rowing 'powered', nor sailing but what if the sails were a windmill of some kind and driving a propeller or paddle wheels? What if the human was not rowing but pedaling and that was driving the oars, or paddle wheels or a propeller? What if that human pedaling was driving a dynamo and that was driving an electric motor (and a propeller or paddle wheels)? What if there was a battery that was put into the boat with no charge, then charged by the human pedaling and then used to run the drive ... or charged a super capacitor (that isn't a 'battery') that in turn powered the craft. Or what about the addition of solar panels ... etc etc. My point to them was that whilst most pre-charged electric propulsion would have caused some pollution in gaining that charge, the 'waterside emissions' and the risk of chemical pollution (directly to the water) via petrol or lubrication oil was mostly reduced to zero. That along with the near silence of most electric propulsion should (IMHO) give it a reduced licence fee. I understand we are still using the waterways (and possibly locks etc) and so should contribute *something* (towards their upkeep). But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use my boat! ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 00:09:10 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/08/2017 23:04, T i m wrote: snip 3) It is very rare for a LA battery to spontaneously explode and / or catch fare and can't generate it's own oxygen so could even burn is space, unlike (I understand) Li-Ion). 'Sealed' (recombination) and especially GEL batteries are even less likely to ever cause an explosion (or catch fire) as they don't vent hydrogen and would only do so when charging in any case (e.g. The chances of anything untoward happening when in a boat some time from the shore would be very very low). You need to reassess those claims. If you're going to put this on the water you will need a boat safety certificate. The boat already has one from the builder but doesn't need any others (regarding the electric propulsion) because none of it is permanent. One of the requirements with be venting of the batteries. Not really an issue in an open dinghy. ;-) I can assure you, batteries gas, and the gases given of are a perfect hydrogen-oxygen mixture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_TnsHu2u4c Yes, especially with a wet / flooded battery and conventional (non recombination) vented caps. And also typically only when there is excess (or too high a level of) charge and the surplus energy is dissipated by 'gassing' (liberating hydrogen). Again, as I won't be charging the batteries in my 3m folding dinghy and the batteries don't have flooded cells but the electrolyte held in solid suspension in the form of a gel (to a level where if you smashed the bottom corner off the battery, *no* electrolyte would leak out) ... and the caps recombine any gasses liberated by any overcharging and convert it back into a liquid (not that there is any in these gel batteries and they are 'electrolyte starved' ...) I think I should be ok. ;-) And that should be just as well as they are typically what you find in most mobility scooters (except those now going over to Li-Ion). I can testify to this, except I was lucky in that the caps flew into the air and I was covered in just a little acid, still sufficient to eat through my top (which I should have thoroughly washed in water). Yup, been there and done that (as a kid) but I was doing all the things you shouldn't. Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the leads. Now, you could smell when the 8 x 200Ah 6V traction lead (wet) acid batteries were fully charged in my electric Moke from quite a way off (downwind). ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 00:09:10 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:
snip You need to reassess those claims. If you're going to put this on the water you will need a boat safety certificate. One of the requirements with be venting of the batteries. FYI (&FWIW etc): https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/653.pdf https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/682.pdf By 'electrical system' they say they mean 'permanently fixed', as in a cabin cruiser etc, not just a battery connected to an outboard motor. FWIW, all my systems are all protected by both a resettable fuse and a two pole disconnection (Anderson SB50, just outside the battery boxes). If all else fails it can be thrown overboard and unlike Lithium, that won't make matters worse. ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
More so. Assuming of course they have no tags for the purpose. The power
density of Li is greater and although they are designed to run hot, localised heating is not a good thing. They can tend to cause a fire if they short internally. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... It has been said soldering to Ni-Cad etc cells is a bad thing as the heat can damage them. Hence the pro method of welding which presumably transfers less heat to the inside. Does the same apply to Lithium Iron? -- *I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote:
Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the leads. I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened: Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere! A check in the shop showed the charging system to be ok. Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new battery, ran as before for years. So when I charge even a small (say: 6 Volt 2 Ah gel cell), I put it where it bursting, leaking, or dribbling acid won't be more than a nuisance. Thomas Prufer |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 28/08/2017 01:05, T i m wrote:
But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use my boat! ;-) Sounds like you are to me. I want a subsidy from others so I don't have to pay as much is pretty much the same as harry IMO. The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry has done, they don't want you to have a boat. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 08:52:15 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote: Hmm, Well you seem to be the lucky one. Luck has nothing to do with it, just a sensible approach to the problem. I suppose its all about minimising the physical and heat induced stress. Correct, the abrasion and cleaning of the contact area together with the use of a non corrosive flux, tin/lead solder and a big hot iron means the solder joint is made quickly and reliably. Cooling quickly afterwards minimising heat stress within the cell. Don't forget these cells are generally rated for up to 80degC and soldering will take them nowhere near there. The risk is not heat degradation of the cell but possible damage to the base insulator and top sealing plate. This risk is minimised by making the joint very quickly and cooling it quickly. I don't know how mechanically solid they are, but one needs to avoid use of an ordinary vice. A circular or whatever shape the cell is, clamp holding over a large area would seem to be best. Li batteries came out after I lost my sight, so I only have other peoples experiences to draw on there. As most people don't have three hands the "clamp" is only to hold the battery in position while you solder the wire to it, its usually nothing more complicated than an elastic band and a few scraps of wood. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
In article ,
T i m wrote: I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric outboard. My thinking too - but for a much loved 18v drill which has a right angle attachment. So not easy to just buy new at a reasonable price. I have three batteries, and two are dead. The third was re-celled professionally, but doesn't work as well as a OEM one did - in terms of maximum drill torque. My vaping device(s) use 18650 and they are very good value for their capacity, and being smaller than NI-Cads would fit inside a battery pack easily. The charger would obviously require modification too. -- *Frustration is trying to find your glasses without your glasses. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:01:22 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote: On 28/08/2017 01:05, T i m wrote: But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use my boat! ;-) Sounds like you are to me. Well, it might to you because you are easily confused. I'm going to take my batteries round to harry's anyway so he can charge them on his panels, as I'm already paying him. ;-) I want a subsidy from others so I don't have to pay as much is pretty much the same as harry IMO. Of course it is (to you). There is a massive difference between forcing other people to pay for something that you use AND GAIN FINANTIALLY FROM personally ... and off-setting the (in my case 'arbitrary) cost of making use of an existing recourse because of the benefits my use will bring (and many of the waterway authorities seem to agree because they do reduce the licence fee for those who don't pollute the water and air (fuels and oil in the water and fumes and noise in the air). Similarly I don't use many of the services the licence helps support, like pump-out, hard moorings, water / electric hookup or even locks for that matter (as we can portage round). Part of the licence fee will also be used to 'clean up' the pollution made directly into the water by spilt fuel, leaking oil or underwater exhausts. I won't be doing any of that and I won't be using the waterways any differently than those who row (at the point of use etc). Many authorities do indeed treat electrically propelled boats in the same way as they might sailing or rowing craft or at least reduce the cost. "The Authority encourages more environmentally-friendly forms of boating with reduced charges for electrically propelled motor craft." http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/b...iendly-boating The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry has done, But all under false pretences and using questionable ethics. they don't want you to have a boat. Of course they do. We are positively encouraged to make use of the facilities open to all of us (not just those who happen to own a roof that faces in the right direction and are looking for a cash cow). 'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for years and the walkers and cyclists (who create most of the wear) contribute nothing (but I'm happy to subsidise them). ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:32:00 +0200, Thomas Prufer
wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote: Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the leads. I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened: Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere! I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte starved AGM or Gel). A check in the shop showed the charging system to be ok. How old was the battery OOI? Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new battery, ran as before for years. So no spontaneous fire then? So when I charge even a small (say: 6 Volt 2 Ah gel cell), I put it where it bursting, leaking, or dribbling acid won't be more than a nuisance. If it's a proper 'gel' battery there should be any of that under any circumstances (however, some manufacturers incorrectly mark their AGM cells as 'Gel', and whilst there is a slightly greater risk of electrolyte getting out, there isn't very much of it as it's 'absorbed' in the glass mat). Anyway, my comparison was really the RW risks of LA versus Lithium, especially Li-Po and also including Li-Ion. Plenty of videos online of perfectly healthy Lithium cells spontaneously combusting simply due to overcharge or previously being damaged. Not something most LA batteries will do. Like I said, I'm not (and never have) said their are no risks in any energy storage technology, just that there are some that are naturally more volatile than other and especially if you put them in contact with water. ;-( Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:38:26 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , T i m wrote: I am interested all this because I was thinking of using a decent array of (ideally Panasonic) Li-Ion 18650 cells (possibly 4S25P) to act as a lead acid traction battery replacement for my electric outboard. My thinking too - but for a much loved 18v drill which has a right angle attachment. So not easy to just buy new at a reasonable price. I have three batteries, and two are dead. The third was re-celled professionally, but doesn't work as well as a OEM one did - in terms of maximum drill torque. My vaping device(s) use 18650 and they are very good value for their capacity, and being smaller than NI-Cads would fit inside a battery pack easily. The charger would obviously require modification too. And you might need a Battery Management System, a PCB that manages the charge, cell voltage balancing and over discharge protection. It's the small PCB you find in all such battery packs (like the portable phone chargers, laptops and Li-Ion drills etc). That's not to say you can't do without a BMS (many geeks do) but you then need to hook up a suitable charger to managing the charge / balance and some form of cutoff or alarm to manage the over discharge. That's why many Lithium powered tools just 'cut off', rather than gradually slowing and stopping as with Nicad or NiMh etc. Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:50:26 +0100, T i m wrote:
I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte starved AGM or Gel). The battery hadn't had water added in at least the past months. How old was the battery OOI? A few years. This was a diesel starter battery, and was useful in the previous winter. So no spontaneous fire then? No. The AAA man said that bursting batteries happened off and on, usually due to the charging system being defective and cooking the battery at 16 or 18 Volts. He'd previously never seen it happen on a correctly working charging system. If it's a proper 'gel' battery there should be any of that under any circumstances (however, some manufacturers incorrectly mark their AGM cells as 'Gel', and whilst there is a slightly greater risk of electrolyte getting out, there isn't very much of it as it's 'absorbed' in the glass mat). I just place the charging batteries a lot more carefully than previously. Anyway, my comparison was really the RW risks of LA versus Lithium, especially Li-Po and also including Li-Ion. I have friends that use Lithium batteries in their motorbikes. It saves a lot of weight, which is great on a racing bike, and makes sense if you've also laid out on the titanium exhaust and whatnot. Downside is the price, they are *expensive*! Thomas Prufer |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 28/08/2017 10:50, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:32:00 +0200, Thomas Prufer wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote: Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the leads. I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened: Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere! I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte starved AGM or Gel). A check in the shop showed the charging system to be ok. How old was the battery OOI? Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new battery, ran as before for years. So no spontaneous fire then? An internal short from a distorted plate is all that is needed. A good reason to avoid using undersized batteries. There is no reason why a 'fire' should break out, once the gases have been consumed in the explosion. |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:26:20 +0200, Thomas Prufer
wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:50:26 +0100, T i m wrote: I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte starved AGM or Gel). The battery hadn't had water added in at least the past months. Sorry, no, there are 'wet' cell lead acid batteries and AGM / Gel / sealed where there is no opportunity to add (distilled) water. How old was the battery OOI? A few years. This was a diesel starter battery, and was useful in the previous winter. Ok. So no spontaneous fire then? No. Ok. ;-) The AAA man said that bursting batteries happened off and on, usually due to the charging system being defective and cooking the battery at 16 or 18 Volts. He'd previously never seen it happen on a correctly working charging system. It can also happen if an internal cell link had eroded away (and / or fractures) and causes a spark just after the cell has been charging for a while. If it's a proper 'gel' battery there should be any of that under any circumstances (however, some manufacturers incorrectly mark their AGM cells as 'Gel', and whilst there is a slightly greater risk of electrolyte getting out, there isn't very much of it as it's 'absorbed' in the glass mat). I just place the charging batteries a lot more carefully than previously. Understood. Anyway, my comparison was really the RW risks of LA versus Lithium, especially Li-Po and also including Li-Ion. I have friends that use Lithium batteries in their motorbikes. It saves a lot of weight, which is great on a racing bike, Agreed and about the only time they are of a direct advantage IMHO. ;-) It's the same with my electric outboard project. Going to (say) Li-Ion would save a lot of weight but with a lot of extra cost, not just in the battery itself but the power and stability of the chargers, given most people wouldn't want to 'sit around' supervising their batteries being charged. Plus the intermittent usage pattern adds to the unsuitability of Li for my needs. and makes sense if you've also laid out on the titanium exhaust and whatnot. Yup, in the most part I see that sort of stuff as just bling (on road bikes etc). e.g. If you are using the bike regularly and the battery and charging systems are correctly proportioned and matched to the charging system then there generally isn't an issue. Leaving a LA battery uncharged causes it to sulphate and then you just end up with a 'dead' or weak battery. Lithium can suffer neglect similarly and most have to have some form of BMS (built inside what looks like a traditional battery case etc) and so you then have the extra complexity of that (MTBF), plus the potential of a charging system that isn't correctly matched to the battery. ;-( Downside is the price, they are *expensive*! Indeed. However, with Tesla and the Chinese ramping up their Lithium battery manufacturing, that should improve in the future. ;-) Lead acid does seem to suit more of a binary system, where it's either fully charged or flat (50% DOD) and can be charged and left (fully) charged ready for use. Li OTOH, if to be left for a prolonged (?) period needs to be put into a storage charge level and maintained at that level, so never 'ready' for instant use. Like I said though, I'm still keen to give Li-Ion a try, even if only for the S&G's. ;-) Cheers, T i m http://fortune.com/2017/06/28/elon-musk-china-battery/ https://www.ft.com/content/8c94a2f6-...e-a5e3738f9ae4 |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On 28/08/2017 10:41, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:01:22 +0100, "dennis@home" wrote: On 28/08/2017 01:05, T i m wrote: But I'm not doing a harry and asking other people to pay for me to use my boat! ;-) Sounds like you are to me. Well, it might to you because you are easily confused. I'm going to take my batteries round to harry's anyway so he can charge them on his panels, as I'm already paying him. ;-) I want a subsidy from others so I don't have to pay as much is pretty much the same as harry IMO. Of course it is (to you). There is a massive difference between forcing other people to pay for something that you use AND GAIN FINANTIALLY FROM personally ... You are gaining financially if you don't pay as much. and off-setting the (in my case 'arbitrary) cost of making use of an existing recourse because of the benefits my use will bring (and many of the waterway authorities seem to agree because they do reduce the licence fee for those who don't pollute the water and air (fuels and oil in the water and fumes and noise in the air). Similarly I don't use many of the services the licence helps support, like pump-out, hard moorings, water / electric hookup or even locks for that matter (as we can portage round). Part of the licence fee will also be used to 'clean up' the pollution made directly into the water by spilt fuel, leaking oil or underwater exhausts. I won't be doing any of that and I won't be using the waterways any differently than those who row (at the point of use etc). Many authorities do indeed treat electrically propelled boats in the same way as they might sailing or rowing craft or at least reduce the cost. "The Authority encourages more environmentally-friendly forms of boating with reduced charges for electrically propelled motor craft." http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/b...iendly-boating The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry has done, But all under false pretences and using questionable ethics. It does appear that way now but not when it started. they don't want you to have a boat. Of course they do. We are positively encouraged to make use of the facilities open to all of us (not just those who happen to own a roof that faces in the right direction and are looking for a cash cow). 'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for years and the walkers and cyclists (who create most of the wear) contribute nothing (but I'm happy to subsidise them). ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:24:35 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:
On 28/08/2017 10:50, T i m wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:32:00 +0200, Thomas Prufer wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 01:27:52 +0100, T i m wrote: Even my chargers are 'spark free' (intelligent) but even though they are I still turn them off from the wall before disconnecting the leads. I treat batteries with a lot more respect since this happened: Diesel automobile, drive, stop to fuel. On restarting, the battery burst... top completely off, four sides petalled, . Acid everywhere! I bet and an issue with flooded cells (as opposed to electrolyte starved AGM or Gel). A check in the shop showed the charging system to be ok. How old was the battery OOI? Thoroughly rinsed "everywhere", fitted new battery, ran as before for years. So no spontaneous fire then? An internal short from a distorted plate is all that is needed. A good reason to avoid using undersized batteries. And with a Lithium cell they can spontaneously combust simply done to impurities in their construction? There is no reason why a 'fire' should break out, once the gases have been consumed in the explosion. With a lead acid, agreed. With Lithium the Internet is littered with cases where fires have broken out and peoples houses and cars have been burnt out. It's not the battery that burns the house down, the battery is a source of ignition (sometimes completely spontaneously) and that then sets fire to something else. How many people have got away with just burns to their clothes or scorched holes in / on their furniture because their phone or vape battery has overheated and self combusted? Galaxy Note 7 anyone ... hardly cheap or nasty as things technical go eh? I've probably played with and used regularly more lead acid batteries than most here (200Ah x 48V worth in my electric car and regularly racing LA based vehicles plus all the standby batteries from a commercial telephone exchange, not to mention using them portably for charging RC cars and camping etc) and whilst my observations are just a sample of one, I don't know personally of anyone who has had a LA battery do them any harm but know of one person personally who would not have a house now, had he not been lucky because of LiPo fires (and he personally knows of several others who have seen Li-Po batteries go up in flames). Again, I'm not saying LA is without risk, just that historically the risks have been pretty low and the consequences restricted to a very small radius. And given how long the lead acid battery has been around (they were powering EV's at the turn of the century), it's no wonder they are still the std issue in most motorbikes, cars, trucks, caravans and boats (SLI) etc. Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:15:14 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote: snip Of course it is (to you). There is a massive difference between forcing other people to pay for something that you use AND GAIN FINANTIALLY FROM personally ... You are gaining financially if you don't pay as much. You are talking bollox again. ;-) Not paying as much means just that. You aren't adding anything *extra* to the pot, you just aren't taking as much as you otherwise might. snip The big difference is that the government wanted people to do what harry has done, But all under false pretences and using questionable ethics. It does appear that way now but not when it started. I thought that when it started. shrug Anything that is fundamentally good / sound will generally stand on it's own two feet. Cheers, T i m |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:41:38 +0100, T i m wrote:
'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for years Generally Horses are prohibited from using most canal towpaths so using a horse drawn boat to navigate everywhere would be awkward. There are exceptions , some sections of towpaths have been incorporated into bridle paths and there are a few horse drawn tourist/ trip boats that have been granted the right permissions for use of a regular section. There are often complaints from the horsey community that this is so and they frequently wail that the Towpath was built for horses. Ignoring the fact that the horses were not being ridden and proceeded at a gentle pace operated by people who knew that for the system to work a degree of cooperation was required with each other aided by the fact that canal towpaths then were not legally accessible by the public. Now there are with all sorts of users the last thing needed is the towpaths being cut up by horses hooves from gaggles of teenage girls and their mothers pushing their way past other users. G.Harman |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
In article ,
wrote: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:41:38 +0100, T i m wrote: 'Use it or lose it'. My licence also helps towards the upkeep of the towpaths but I haven't seen a horse drawn boat on any waterway for years Generally Horses are prohibited from using most canal towpaths so using a horse drawn boat to navigate everywhere would be awkward. There are exceptions , some sections of towpaths have been incorporated into bridle paths and there are a few horse drawn tourist/ trip boats that have been granted the right permissions for use of a regular section. There are often complaints from the horsey community that this is so and they frequently wail that the Towpath was built for horses. Ignoring the fact that the horses were not being ridden and proceeded at a gentle pace operated by people who knew that for the system to work a degree of cooperation was required with each other aided by the fact that canal towpaths then were not legally accessible by the public. Now there are with all sorts of users the last thing needed is the towpaths being cut up by horses hooves from gaggles of teenage girls and their mothers pushing their way past other users. easy; make the towpaths only for Shires & Clydesdales. G.Harman -- from KT24 in Surrey, England |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
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Soldering re-chargable cells.
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:19:16 +0100, charles
wrote: Generally Horses are prohibited from using most canal towpaths so using a horse drawn boat to navigate everywhere would be awkward. There are exceptions Now there are with all sorts of users the last thing needed is the towpaths being cut up by horses hooves from gaggles of teenage girls and their mothers pushing their way past other users. easy; make the towpaths only for Shires & Clydesdales. They tended to be too big for use on most UK canals. When Horses were used as motive power they tended be something smaller both to fit under the many low bridges and pass each other on the towpaths, Mules were sometimes used instead of Horses . The bigger breeds were sometimes used on canals where barges rather than narrow boats were able to be used where things were engineered with larger proportions anyway. G.Harman |
Soldering re-chargable cells.
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