On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:54:04 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




The cm67 can't modulate, tat is why it is best to go for a good L&S
model
that can and have finite temp control.

Which is what I said in the first place.

You never mentioned L&S. You never knew of their controllers.

L&S was never the subject of the thread. You introduced it because
you had painted yourself into a corner with respect to the CM67.

The thread had moved to finer temp control via modulation. Better choice is
a heat bank, using a cheap simple condensing boiler and a 3-way mixing valve
from a L&S controller for the heating off the heat bank.


You moved it to that discussion because you got out of your depth with
respect to the CM67 by trying to be clever and falling on your face.
You then proceeded o compound the issue by using your normal tactics.

Actually the discussion about snakes is quite apropos. They slither
around as well.



That snake has gone to his head.

snip drivel

That's your quaternary response.

All snakes should be killed, especially the poisonous ones.

Now you're just getting silly and emotional. :-)

No. Poisonous snakes are no use whatsoever and kill people.

Who said anything about poisonous? The vast majority are not, and
even those that are are seldom aggressive towards humans.

Do you feed this reptile live mammals?

Nope and there are two.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message
...



A real cheap solutions is to create a manifold and have all the rads
flows
off this. Each rad has a 2-port zone valve (cheap at £12 at BES) and
each
rad hasn electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between 10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:56:44 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message The Hometronic system
itself isn't new and has been around in Germany
for a number of years, where it is quite suited to apartment
installations. The earlier version of the radiator valve was RF
controlled as well but AFAICR did not have transmission capability to
a boiler interlock device.

The CF67z is new, although one point to realise is that it will only
cover two zones to a set point. Each HR80 can be set in itself but
then that is not under CM67z control. The data sheet leaves that bit
out.

Also, since each HR80 uses 2 x AAA batteries, it is going to make
Duracell shareholders very happy. :-)

Some interesting ideas though

I looked at Hometronic last year but I think it's far too expensive for
what it is.

I'm vaguely interested in the new solution, but only if it's comparable
in price with a normal CM67 + TRV solution. If it's a lot more, I'd be
more interested in getting a solution with a bit more intelligence which
could be integrated into a whole house system.

Neil

Quite. I would be surprised if the valves are south of £100 a go.

I've been developing a system which includes this type of
functionality plus a great deal more. There are some commercially
exploitable aspects, so I don't want to expand on the details as yet.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:50:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

A controller acting on a 3 position actuator would pulse it one way or
the
other (a pulse to not 6 minutes as you mistakingly believe).

I didn't believe that at all, you did.

You said a pulse can be minutes long. Duh!

It can. It can be days or even months. The only criterion is that
it goes on and off.


In short, it
nudges the valve one way or the other to reach setpoint. Some
controllers
can be used with any 3 position actuator of any make. It doesn't need
to
know the speed of the actuators travel.

The L&S one certainly does, and any controller working in this way
will need to know the speed of travel at least approximately, or as a
loop there would be far too much or far too little gain.

I'll let you into a secret. These controllers have adjustments on them.

Some fairly crude ones,

Not so.

and I can read at least as well as you can,

But you have absolutely no experience whatsoever of them.

the difference being that I understand what I read.....

Not so.

Simulated proportional feedback are
more suited to PID controllers.

There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v
control
type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there
is
electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV
heads.

A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.

Not at all. This is but one componen. I'm
already doing what this system does and more.

No, throw it all out and get the cm67z

I don't think so. I am doing some far better things and have some
original ideas that I'm working on. I won't discuss them here
though..

No. You will F**k it up.

I don't think so. Already working and there are some interesting
ideas which are commercially exploitable so I won't be discussing them
here as I said.

Such as what? Electric valves on a rad with a central controller? Not new
at all. The Honeywell RF system is the best in principle as there is no
wiring. Or are you going to sell snake controllers?

Stop trying to be a controls engineer, when you clearly have missed the
basics.

I don't need to try to be anything.
I designed control systems as
an honours degree project

This have moved on since then and you are clearly way behind.

and subsequently
commercially for various
industries for more than 10 years after that.

Who?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
The thread had moved to finer temp control via modulation. Better choice
is
a heat bank, using a cheap simple condensing boiler and a 3-way mixing
valve
from a L&S controller for the heating off the heat bank.

You moved it to that discussion because you got out of your depth with
respect to the CM67 by trying to be clever and falling on your face.
You then proceeded o compound the issue by using your normal tactics.

Andy you are clearly bitter and twisted. You never thought of this
brilliant simple method

Actually the discussion about snakes is quite apropos. They slither
around as well.

Andy, you being a snake aficionado will know about slithering from close
quarters.

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...



A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads
flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and
each rad has an electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With
a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between
10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer. Some of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single channel timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when on hols. For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered full open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.

This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the existing
pipes.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:56:44 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message The Hometronic system
itself isn't new and has been around in Germany
for a number of years, where it is quite suited to apartment
installations. The earlier version of the radiator valve was RF
controlled as well but AFAICR did not have transmission capability to
a boiler interlock device.

The CF67z is new, although one point to realise is that it will only
cover two zones to a set point. Each HR80 can be set in itself but
then that is not under CM67z control. The data sheet leaves that bit
out.

Also, since each HR80 uses 2 x AAA batteries, it is going to make
Duracell shareholders very happy. :-)

Some interesting ideas though

I looked at Hometronic last year but I think it's far too expensive for
what it is.

I'm vaguely interested in the new solution, but only if it's comparable
in price with a normal CM67 + TRV solution. If it's a lot more, I'd be
more interested in getting a solution with a bit more intelligence which
could be integrated into a whole house system.

Neil

Quite. I would be surprised if the valves are south of £100 a go.

I've been developing a system which includes this type of
functionality plus a great deal more. There are some commercially
exploitable aspects, so I don't want to expand on the details as yet.

Just give us the functionality, not the details. I'm certain it has already
been thought of.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...



A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads
flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and
each rad has an electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With
a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between
10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer. Some
of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single channel
timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master
controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when on hols.
For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered full open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.

This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the
existing
pipes.



OK, so I've got £23 for the zone valve and £30 for the programmable
stat, per room. Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
retrofit, in my situation, at least.

All of a sudden, Andy's suggested £100 per HR80 looks rather more
reasonable (purchase of shares in Duracell notwithstanding)...

Neil

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...



A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads
flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and
each rad has an electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With
a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between
10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer. Some
of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single channel
timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master
controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when on hols.
For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered full open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.

This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the
existing
pipes.



OK, so I've got £23 for the zone valve and £30
for the programmable stat, per room.

They are available for far less than that.

Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
retrofit, in my situation, at least.

That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good solution.

All of a sudden, Andy's suggested £100 per HR80 looks rather more
reasonable (purchase of shares in Duracell notwithstanding)...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...



A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads
flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and
each rad has an electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With
a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between
10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer.
Some
of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single
channel
timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a
single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master
controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when on
hols.
For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the
hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered full
open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.

This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for
a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the
existing
pipes.



OK, so I've got £23 for the zone valve and £30
for the programmable stat, per room.

They are available for far less than that.

Are they?


Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
retrofit, in my situation, at least.

That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good
solution.

No, what you actually said was "A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £12 at BES) and each rad hasn electronic wall
stat."

It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added the
caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real cheap".

Neil

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...



A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads
flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and
each rad has an electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With
a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between
10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer.
Some
of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single
channel
timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a
single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master
controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when on
hols.
For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the
hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered full
open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.

This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for
a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the
existing
pipes.



OK, so I've got £23 for the zone valve and £30
for the programmable stat, per room.

They are available for far less than that.

Are they?

I have seen them around for £20-25. Screwfix do one for £25, not sure if
the spec fits your needs though.

Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
retrofit, in my situation, at least.

That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good
solution.

No, what you actually said was "A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and each rad hasn electronic wall
stat."

What I also said was:

"This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the existing
pipes."

It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added the
caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real cheap".

What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by "solution"?
Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat = less than
£50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare that to the
Honeywell RF method.

As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution
for a new installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
heating engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the
existing pipes."

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...



A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads
flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and
each rad has an electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With
a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between
10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer.
Some
of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single
channel
timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a
single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master
controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when
on
hols.
For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the
hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered
full
open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.

This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution
for
a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert
the
existing
pipes.



OK, so I've got £23 for the zone valve and £30
for the programmable stat, per room.

They are available for far less than that.

Are they?

I have seen them around for £20-25. Screwfix do one for £25, not sure
if
the spec fits your needs though.

Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic
as a
retrofit, in my situation, at least.

That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good
solution.

No, what you actually said was "A real cheap solutions is to create
a
manifold and have all the rads flows off this. Each rad has a
2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and each rad hasn electronic wall
stat."

What I also said was:

"This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the
existing
pipes."

You said this after I pointed out your 'solution' wasn't going to fly,
so you modified it to use programmable stats instead of ordinary
bimetallic ones.


It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added
the
caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real
cheap".

What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by
"solution"?

YOu haven't even found out what I want to achieve - how can you know if
it is a solution or not?

Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat = less
than
£50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare that to
the
Honeywell RF method.

I have 11 radiators. According to you, £550 is cheap?

Plus wiring, plus plumbing, plus redecoration. All these are cheap too,
are they?


As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective
solution
for a new installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
heating engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert
the
existing pipes."



You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution' was
a non starter.

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions' when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

Neil

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads
flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and
each rad has an electronic wall stat.

This only goes half way, though. With
a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between
10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.

Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer.
Some
of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single
channel
timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a
single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master
controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when
on
hols.
For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the
hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered
full
open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.

This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution
for
a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert
the
existing
pipes.



OK, so I've got £23 for the zone valve and £30
for the programmable stat, per room.

They are available for far less than that.

Are they?

I have seen them around for £20-25. Screwfix do one for £25, not sure
if
the spec fits your needs though.

Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic
as a
retrofit, in my situation, at least.

That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good
solution.

No, what you actually said was "A real cheap solutions is to create
a
manifold and have all the rads flows off this. Each rad has a
2-port
zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and each rad hasn electronic wall
stat."

What I also said was:

"This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a
new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the
existing
pipes."

You said this after I pointed out your 'solution' wasn't going to fly,
so you modified it to use programmable stats instead of ordinary
bimetallic ones.

You must follow the thread, you were apart of it. I suggested "electronic"
stats BTW, then with your response stat/programmers.

It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added
the
caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real
cheap".

What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by
"solution"?

YOu haven't even found out what I want to achieve - how can you know if
it is a solution or not?

You were on about individual control of each room if I recall rightly. If
you want individual control of each room in temperature and time, and temps
at set patterns over a day, then this is very cheap solution. VERY CHEAP!

Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat = less
than
£50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare that to
the
Honeywell RF method.

I have 11 radiators. According to you, £550 is cheap?

For that solution? with functionality? buttons!

Plus wiring, plus plumbing, plus redecoration. All these are cheap too,
are they?

You must focus. I clearly made the distinction new build/renovation and
existing.

As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective
solution
for a new installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
heating engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert
the
existing pipes."

You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution' was
a non starter.

It was a starter, then you said you wanted time control and different temp
throughout the day for individual rooms. What do you want? Me to pay for a
CM67z system for you and fit it over the weekend too? My God!

What an ungrateful sod!

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions' when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

What is your problem? The technical one, it is clear you have a personal
one.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

You said this after I pointed out your 'solution' wasn't going to
fly,
so you modified it to use programmable stats instead of ordinary
bimetallic ones.

You must follow the thread, you were apart of it. I suggested
"electronic"
stats BTW, then with your response stat/programmers.

My mistake. Are electronic room stats cheaper than bimetallic ones?


It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you
added
the
caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real
cheap".

What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by
"solution"?

YOu haven't even found out what I want to achieve - how can you know
if
it is a solution or not?

You were on about individual control of each room if I recall rightly.
If
you want individual control of each room in temperature and time, and
temps
at set patterns over a day, then this is very cheap solution. VERY
CHEAP!

Your "real cheap solution" didn't do this. Ergo it wasn't a solution.


Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat =
less
than
£50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare
that to
the
Honeywell RF method.

I have 11 radiators. According to you, £550 is cheap?

For that solution? with functionality? buttons!

Plus wiring, plus plumbing, plus redecoration. All these are cheap
too,
are they?

You must focus. I clearly made the distinction new build/renovation
and
existing.

Which is relevent to me how, excatly? Am I buliding a new house or
renovating?

As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective
solution
for a new installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that
any
heating engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to
re-divert
the
existing pipes."

You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution'
was
a non starter.

It was a starter, then you said you wanted time control and different
temp
throughout the day for individual rooms. What do you want?

This is a good start - ask me what I want first, before suggesting a
'solution'. I am glad you have learned something today.

Me to pay for a
CM67z system for you and fit it over the weekend too? My God!

What an ungrateful sod!

Not at all.


Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions'
when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

What is your problem? The technical one, it is clear you have a
personal
one.


I have gas fired central heating with a non-modulating conventional cast
iron boiler which is rated at about double the worst-case heat loss for
the house. I have a programmable room stat, with TRVs on 10 radiators
and one bypass.

How much would it cost to add individual time/temp control to the system
with a view to increasing efficiency without the disruption of moving or
reconfiguring pipework?

If you recall, I mentioned that I had been looking at the CM67z and HR80
solution yesterday becasue it appeared to do what I wanted, although at
the price indicated I would want more - interfaces to house control
system, that kind of thing.

Neil

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:


I have gas fired central heating with a non-modulating conventional
cast iron boiler which is rated at about double the worst-case heat
loss for the house. I have a programmable room stat, with TRVs on 10
radiators and one bypass.

How much would it cost to add individual time/temp control to the
system with a view to increasing efficiency without the disruption of
moving or reconfiguring pipework?

If you recall, I mentioned that I had been looking at the CM67z and
HR80 solution yesterday becasue it appeared to do what I wanted,
although at the price indicated I would want more - interfaces to
house control system, that kind of thing.

Neil


Hi Neil,

The CM67z sounds interesting to me as a way of retrofitting some measure of
individual room control to an existing system without a lot of plumbing and
wiring changes. The main drawback seems to me (apart from the batteries!) to
be the fact that each CM67z only controls 2 zones. So if you have (say) 10
rooms, and want each room to do something different by way of temperature
profile, you need 5 CM67z's - which could get a bit expensive.

I think that if I were to upgrade my system - which is similar to yours
except that I haven't got any TRVs - I would probably fit a 2-port zone
valve in the feed to each rad, and have each of these controlled by a
programmable room stat. [Ok, I would need 10 stats, but they could be a lot
less exotic than a CM67z]. Installing zone valves would not necessitate
converting to a manifold system (contrary to IMM's inference) as long as you
can get at the feed pipe to each rad in some suitable location. Bringing
them all together in a central point would simplify wiring up all the
volt-free contacts on the zone valves to control the boiler - but is by no
means essential. In my case, at any rate, all the zone valves could be under
the upstairs floorboards, and the only exposed wiring would be that going to
each room stat - which I would cover with small section white square
trunking until the room is next decorated, when I would chase it into the
plaster.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:03:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:29 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Of course, but because there is local position detection at the valve,
the result is more accurate and the system loop behaviour much more
predictable.

A decent "well adjusted" controller on a 3 position valve gives the same
accuracy.

That's not possible. There is no position detection,

Doesn't need it.

Then it won't be as accurate.


apart from driving the thing periodically to
the end stop and timing from there.

It doesn't time it. The proportional side is in control until it is inside
the proportional band and when it settles inside the band the Integral
pulses it to set point. I have had "highly accurate " control with simple
controllers and actuators.

Glad you put that in double quotes.


DC controlled actuators have servo electronics in the head with
position detection based on a stepper motor. That is inherently a
lot more accurate than something run end to end with on/off control.

Not necessarily, but generally I prefer this method.

I can understand that.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:22:05 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .


The L&S one certainly does, and any controller working in this way
will need to know the speed of travel at least approximately, or as a
loop there would be far too much or far too little gain.

I'll let you into a secret. These controllers have adjustments on them.

Some fairly crude ones,

Not so.

From the data sheet, the adjustments are quite crude in their effect
simply because the device being controlled is crude in nature.



I don't think so. Already working and there are some interesting
ideas which are commercially exploitable so I won't be discussing them
here as I said.

Such as what? Electric valves on a rad with a central controller? Not new
at all. The Honeywell RF system is the best in principle as there is no
wiring.

As I said, there are some commercially exploitable things in what I'm
doing, so I won't be going into detail



Stop trying to be a controls engineer, when you clearly have missed the
basics.

I don't need to try to be anything.
I designed control systems as
an honours degree project

This have moved on since then and you are clearly way behind.

Basic principles of control mathematics don't change. Their practical
application certainly does and I have some interesting new concepts
that I am developing.


and subsequently
commercially for various
industries for more than 10 years after that.

Who?

I wouldn't reveal information like that any more than you would.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:24:40 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
The thread had moved to finer temp control via modulation. Better choice
is
a heat bank, using a cheap simple condensing boiler and a 3-way mixing
valve
from a L&S controller for the heating off the heat bank.

You moved it to that discussion because you got out of your depth with
respect to the CM67 by trying to be clever and falling on your face.
You then proceeded o compound the issue by using your normal tactics.

Andy you are clearly bitter and twisted. You never thought of this
brilliant simple method

Far from it. This is such an old and outdated way of controlling
actuators that I am surprised that there are still products on the
market using it.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:25:14 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:




You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution' was
a non starter.

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions' when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

Neil



Wait for the personal insults......



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:34:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


What an ungrateful sod!

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions' when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

What is your problem? The technical one, it is clear you have a personal
one.



There you go. True to form.....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:49:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:56:44 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message The Hometronic system
itself isn't new and has been around in Germany
for a number of years, where it is quite suited to apartment
installations. The earlier version of the radiator valve was RF
controlled as well but AFAICR did not have transmission capability to
a boiler interlock device.

The CF67z is new, although one point to realise is that it will only
cover two zones to a set point. Each HR80 can be set in itself but
then that is not under CM67z control. The data sheet leaves that bit
out.

Also, since each HR80 uses 2 x AAA batteries, it is going to make
Duracell shareholders very happy. :-)

Some interesting ideas though

I looked at Hometronic last year but I think it's far too expensive for
what it is.

I'm vaguely interested in the new solution, but only if it's comparable
in price with a normal CM67 + TRV solution. If it's a lot more, I'd be
more interested in getting a solution with a bit more intelligence which
could be integrated into a whole house system.

Neil

Quite. I would be surprised if the valves are south of £100 a go.

I've been developing a system which includes this type of
functionality plus a great deal more. There are some commercially
exploitable aspects, so I don't want to expand on the details as yet.

Just give us the functionality, not the details. I'm certain it has already
been thought of.

Nope. I m certain that the overall concept has not been thought of
before and I am not even going to describe it in outline.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:45:31 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Wait for the personal insults......

Or "rational explanation snipped"?

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't
guaranteed to reach me.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

The L&S switched stuff is still largely open loop and will require
regular resets by the controller so that the controller's idea of
position will match the real one. Crude but effective to a point.

3-port (mixing) valves are very commonly used in commercial HVAC controls
for things like weather compensation, so I'm surprised at the difficulty
being had in identifying products;-) Drayton certainly used to make 3-port
valves with a potentiometer to provide positional feedback - 'Theta YB'
series' valves (just found an old data sheet). As this isn't my field I
don't know whether these still exist, or whether they've given way to geared
stepper motor drives (which should work OK open-loop) or something else.
You could also sense the temperature (error) of the mixed water and use that
to control the valve position.

Interesting thread this, although it's reminding me slightly too much of Ted
Horrocks's lectures...

--
Andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:03:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:29 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Of course, but because there is local position detection at the
valve,
the result is more accurate and the system loop behaviour much more
predictable.

A decent "well adjusted" controller on a 3 position valve gives the
same
accuracy.

That's not possible. There is no position detection,

Doesn't need it.

Then it won't be as accurate.


apart from driving the thing periodically to
the end stop and timing from there.

It doesn't time it. The proportional side is in control until it is
inside
the proportional band and when it settles inside the band the Integral
pulses it to set point. I have had "highly accurate " control with
simple
controllers and actuators.

Glad you put that in double quotes.


DC controlled actuators have servo electronics in the head with
position detection based on a stepper motor. That is inherently a
lot more accurate than something run end to end with on/off control.

Not necessarily, but generally I prefer this method.

I can understand that.

Well I recommend 5 years in the control industry then you will.

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

The L&S switched stuff is still largely open loop and will require
regular resets by the controller so that the controller's idea of
position will match the real one. Crude but effective to a point.

3-port (mixing) valves are very commonly used in commercial HVAC controls
for things like weather compensation, so I'm surprised at the difficulty
being had in identifying products;-) Drayton certainly used to make
3-port
valves with a potentiometer to provide positional feedback - 'Theta YB'
series' valves (just found an old data sheet).

Very true! The 0-10 or 0-20v simulated proportional feedback control
supersede these. The pot on the valve acuautor was one of the points in a
whetstone bridge. I'm not sure if they are still around, Satchwell made
them, and were about the last company to get out of the 1950s (British of
course). Billman (Quality Swedish stuff bought out by L&G) made them and
parts were available, but probably not by now. You probably can still get
them. Most just replace the actuator and controller if either one fails.
The controller had to be mated to dedicated valves/actuators. You could not
mix and match.

As this isn't my field I
don't know whether these still exist, or whether they've given way to
geared
stepper motor drives (which should work OK open-loop) or something else.
You could also sense the temperature (error) of the mixed water and use
that
to control the valve position.

Interesting thread this, although it's reminding me slightly too much of
Ted
Horrocks's lectures...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:34:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


What an ungrateful sod!

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions' when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

What is your problem? The technical one, it is clear you have a personal
one.

There you go. True to form.....

Andy, some people have to be told when they are attituding it. Do think he
might have been drunk?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:49:15 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:56:44 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message The Hometronic
system
itself isn't new and has been around in Germany
for a number of years, where it is quite suited to apartment
installations. The earlier version of the radiator valve was RF
controlled as well but AFAICR did not have transmission capability
to
a boiler interlock device.

The CF67z is new, although one point to realise is that it will only
cover two zones to a set point. Each HR80 can be set in itself but
then that is not under CM67z control. The data sheet leaves that
bit
out.

Also, since each HR80 uses 2 x AAA batteries, it is going to make
Duracell shareholders very happy. :-)

Some interesting ideas though

I looked at Hometronic last year but I think it's far too expensive
for
what it is.

I'm vaguely interested in the new solution, but only if it's
comparable
in price with a normal CM67 + TRV solution. If it's a lot more, I'd be
more interested in getting a solution with a bit more intelligence
which
could be integrated into a whole house system.

Neil

Quite. I would be surprised if the valves are south of £100 a go.

I've been developing a system which includes this type of
functionality plus a great deal more. There are some commercially
exploitable aspects, so I don't want to expand on the details as yet.

Just give us the functionality, not the details. I'm certain it has
already
been thought of.

Nope. I m certain that the overall concept has not been thought of
before and I am not even going to describe it in outline.

Give an overview and I will tell you if you are going up a blind alley.

"Set Square" ...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:


I have gas fired central heating with a non-modulating conventional
cast iron boiler which is rated at about double the worst-case heat
loss for the house. I have a programmable room stat, with TRVs on 10
radiators and one bypass.

How much would it cost to add individual time/temp control to the
system with a view to increasing efficiency without the disruption
of
moving or reconfiguring pipework?

If you recall, I mentioned that I had been looking at the CM67z and
HR80 solution yesterday becasue it appeared to do what I wanted,
although at the price indicated I would want more - interfaces to
house control system, that kind of thing.

Neil


Hi Neil,

The CM67z sounds interesting to me as a way of retrofitting some
measure of
individual room control to an existing system without a lot of
plumbing and
wiring changes. The main drawback seems to me (apart from the
batteries!) to
be the fact that each CM67z only controls 2 zones. So if you have
(say) 10
rooms, and want each room to do something different by way of
temperature
profile, you need 5 CM67z's - which could get a bit expensive.

I think that if I were to upgrade my system - which is similar to
yours
except that I haven't got any TRVs - I would probably fit a 2-port
zone
valve in the feed to each rad, and have each of these controlled by a
programmable room stat. [Ok, I would need 10 stats, but they could be
a lot
less exotic than a CM67z]. Installing zone valves would not
necessitate
converting to a manifold system (contrary to IMM's inference) as long
as you
can get at the feed pipe to each rad in some suitable location.
Bringing
them all together in a central point would simplify wiring up all the
volt-free contacts on the zone valves to control the boiler - but is
by no
means essential. In my case, at any rate, all the zone valves could be
under
the upstairs floorboards, and the only exposed wiring would be that
going to
each room stat - which I would cover with small section white square
trunking until the room is next decorated, when I would chase it into
the
plaster.

Good point, although I'm not sure I have room under the floorboards to
house the zone valves, and having them exposed in each room would not
have sufficient WAF to obtain budgetary approval :-)

When I first saw the CM67z I considered 2 zones (being nominally 'living
rooms' and 'bedrooms'.) Clearly if one room calls for heat the whole
system will be switched on, but unless I *actually* zone the system that
will happen whatever I do. Battery life looks a definite disadvantage -
these valves must be making adjustements on a fairly regular basis. On
the other hand it would probably be simple to use a mains transformer
instead.

At the end of the day, if it starts getting too expensive I'd be better
off replacing the boiler, although that is no simple job either, given
the layout of the house.

Neil

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:25:14 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:




You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution'
was
a non starter.

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions'
when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

Neil



Wait for the personal insults......

I'm not really that bothered what he thinks of me...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
m...
"Set Square" ...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:


I have gas fired central heating with a non-modulating conventional
cast iron boiler which is rated at about double the worst-case heat
loss for the house. I have a programmable room stat, with TRVs on 10
radiators and one bypass.

How much would it cost to add individual time/temp control to the
system with a view to increasing efficiency without the disruption
of
moving or reconfiguring pipework?

If you recall, I mentioned that I had been looking at the CM67z and
HR80 solution yesterday becasue it appeared to do what I wanted,
although at the price indicated I would want more - interfaces to
house control system, that kind of thing.


I think that if I were to upgrade my system -
which is similar to yours except that I haven't
got any TRVs - I would probably fit a 2-port
zone valve in the feed to each rad, and
have each of these controlled by a
programmable room stat. [Ok, I would need
10 stats, but they could be a lot less exotic
than a CM67z]. Installing zone valves would not
necessitate converting to a manifold system
(contrary to IMM's inference)

A manifold is by far the best method all around, although not necessary.

as long as you can get at the feed pipe
to each rad in some suitable location.
Bringing them all together in a
central point would simplify wiring up all the
volt-free contacts on the zone valves to
control the boiler - but is by no
means essential. In my case, at any rate,
all the zone valves could be under
the upstairs floorboards, and the only
exposed wiring would be that
going to each room stat - which I would
cover with small section white square
trunking until the room is next decorated,
when I would chase it into the plaster.

In your case you could use CM67RFs and no wiring and re-decorating.

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:25:14 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:




You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution'
was
a non starter.

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions'
when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

Neil



Wait for the personal insults......

I'm not really that bothered what he thinks of me...

As long as you don't have snakes.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:25:14 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:




You said this after I had pointed out that your original
'solution'
was
a non starter.

Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose
'solutions'
when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.

Neil



Wait for the personal insults......

I'm not really that bothered what he thinks of me...

As long as you don't have snakes.



Snake free zone round here :-)

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:04:41 -0000, "Andy Wade"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

The L&S switched stuff is still largely open loop and will require
regular resets by the controller so that the controller's idea of
position will match the real one. Crude but effective to a point.

3-port (mixing) valves are very commonly used in commercial HVAC controls
for things like weather compensation, so I'm surprised at the difficulty
being had in identifying products;-) Drayton certainly used to make 3-port
valves with a potentiometer to provide positional feedback - 'Theta YB'
series' valves (just found an old data sheet). As this isn't my field I
don't know whether these still exist, or whether they've given way to geared
stepper motor drives (which should work OK open-loop) or something else.
You could also sense the temperature (error) of the mixed water and use that
to control the valve position.

Interesting thread this, although it's reminding me slightly too much of Ted
Horrocks's lectures...


Mmm. Exactly. You attended some of those?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:35:43 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


I've been developing a system which includes this type of
functionality plus a great deal more. There are some commercially
exploitable aspects, so I don't want to expand on the details as yet.

Just give us the functionality, not the details. I'm certain it has
already
been thought of.

Nope. I m certain that the overall concept has not been thought of
before and I am not even going to describe it in outline.

Give an overview and I will tell you if you are going up a blind alley.

Very generous, but I already know what the commercial opportunities
are.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Set Square" wrote in message ...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:


I was just looking at these a few minutes ago, but I can't find a
supplier or pricing info. Any ideas?

I like the idea but the HR80 seems a bit bulky.

Neil


Have a word with Richard at RKM Heating Controls (01954 261855). I can't see
the HR80 or CM67z on their website, but they can probably get a price for
you - and will sell you the kit for DIY installation!

Do they have a web site?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
timegoesby wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Neil Jones wrote:


I was just looking at these a few minutes ago, but I can't find a
supplier or pricing info. Any ideas?

I like the idea but the HR80 seems a bit bulky.

Neil


Have a word with Richard at RKM Heating Controls (01954 261855). I
can't see the HR80 or CM67z on their website, but they can probably
get a price for you - and will sell you the kit for DIY installation!

Do they have a web site?


Yes, it's at http://www.rkm-heating-controls.co.uk/index.html
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!