Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Like vehicle insurance where if it's not kept 'continuous' you risk
losing NCB (or did). At least with NCB you hope to build it back up
over time ... not easy to undo a loft conversion ... ?

Cheers, T i m

In message , Bert
Coules writes

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I
started paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that
the banding has been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from
the register apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

Would the bungalow not have been revalued due to the loft conversion,
whether or not it was temporarily removed from the register?
--
Graeme

On 18/07/2017 11:23, Bert Coules wrote:
Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove
the property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax
while I wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I
started paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the
banding has been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the
register apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate
while the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax
will cost me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were
close to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same problem
anyway.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Graeme wrote:

Would the bungalow not have been revalued due to the loft conversion,
whether or not it was temporarily removed from the register?

My impression (which might well be wrong) is that unless a property is
removed from the register and then replaced, council tax banding is fixed
until a property is sold.

Curiously, the notification letter of the increase says,

"This band [ie D, the new rating] is based on the estimated open market
value of the property at 1st April 1991."

on which date, band C was very definitely the correct banding.

John Rumm wrote:

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were close
to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same problem anyway.

My impression was that improvements don't affect the banding until the
property passes to new owners. But from what you and Graeme say, I was
mistaken.

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were close
to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same problem
anyway.

My impression was that improvements don't affect the banding until the
property passes to new owners. But from what you and Graeme say, I was
mistaken.

Same with solid roof (extra room) conservatories. If you keep shtum how will
they know?

On 18/07/2017 12:36, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were
close to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same
problem anyway.

My impression was that improvements don't affect the banding until the
property passes to new owners. But from what you and Graeme say, I was
mistaken.


No, you are right. Improvement/extension (or indeed partial
demolition!) doesn't usually* change the banding until there is a sale
if the property remains banded.

As a general rule* it's only the those who have the property taken of
the list while it's being rebuilt who get an increased band.


*there's at least one exception I can't be arsed to look up at the moment

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:34:51 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Curiously, the notification letter of the increase says,

"This band [ie D, the new rating] is based on the estimated open market
value of the property at 1st April 1991."

Correct.

on which date, band C was very definitely the correct banding.

Well you can contest the valuation but IIRC you don't have long after
a revaluation to do so.

Pretty sure that it is a "valuation" of the property in its current
state (ie with added loft conversion) at 1991 prices not a valuation
of the property in its 1991 state at 1991 prices. So the loft
conversion could bump you from C to D anyway. Also pretty sure if you
do contest the revaluation whatever decision they come to is final
with no right of appeal.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Robin" wrote:

As a general rule* it's only the those who have the property taken of
the list while it's being rebuilt who get an increased band.

Thanks. I wish I'd known that a year ago!

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Pretty sure that it is a "valuation" of the property in its current
state (ie with added loft conversion) at 1991 prices...

Yes, that does make sense (I'm sorry to say); thanks.

"Graeme" wrote in message
...
In message , Bert
Coules writes

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding
has been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

Would the bungalow not have been revalued due to the loft conversion,
whether or not it was temporarily removed from the register?

yes

but the new rate only becomes applicable on change of ownership

"Bert Coules" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were close
to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same problem
anyway.

My impression was that improvements don't affect the banding until the
property passes to new owners. But from what you and Graeme say, I was
mistaken.

no, you aren't

tim

On 18/07/2017 12:36, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were
close to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same
problem anyway.

My impression was that improvements don't affect the banding until the
property passes to new owners. But from what you and Graeme say, I was
mistaken.

Keep in mind I last did one over ten years ago now, so the situation
could well be different.

At the time I contacted the council and asked the question. They
responded and said they had assessed it and decided there was no change.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John, that's interesting, thanks. Two other properties in my street have
done similar work: a loft conversion and a small rear extension. I must
check and see what band they're on.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding
has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Like vehicle insurance where if it's not kept 'continuous' you risk
losing NCB (or did). At least with NCB you hope to build it back up
over time ... not easy to undo a loft conversion ... ?

Cheers, T i m

I thought your NCB could be used up to two years dorment ? ......

On 18/07/2017 14:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/07/2017 12:36, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were
close to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same
problem anyway.

My impression was that improvements don't affect the banding until the
property passes to new owners. But from what you and Graeme say, I was
mistaken.

Keep in mind I last did one over ten years ago now, so the situation
could well be different.

At the time I contacted the council and asked the question. They
responded and said they had assessed it and decided there was no change.


You are very probably right too.

It all depends on the precise question the council were answering -
which was not necessarily the precise one you asked

Eg if your question was "will my council tax change" they might have
answered on the basis that you hadn't done something that can trigger an
immediate change[1] so the answer was clearly no.

If OTOH your question was "might this change affect the council tax on
the house in the future" they were wrong as it *might* have done on a
sale. And the VOA don't decide if an improvement requires a change ion
the banding until there is such a transaction. So when buying a house
it may be worth asking the VOA if any improvements they know of are
reflected in the band shown in the list or are "logged" awaiting a
relevant transaction. The valuation list may have an "improvement
indicator" but that's not always up to date.

[1] eg created a self-contained flat: I've cribbed now

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Bert Coules wrote:

I've just received notification that the banding has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.
Ah, one of those things that I thought "everybody knew".

Also they can get re-valued at change of hands, so beware if buying a
property that the estate agent says is e.g. band B, if it has the
"improvement indicator" on this website, it could move up a band when
you buy it ...

http://cti.voa.gov.uk/cti/inits.asp

John Rumm wrote:

Adding a loft conversion could also shift you up a band if you were
close to the threshold previously - so you may have had the same problem
anyway.

Only on next sale, I thought ...

Not as annoying probably as the secret deal with Google to revalue
properties using their metrics and pictures will be.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Bert Coules" wrote in message
o.uk...
Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding
has been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

He could appeal and say the loft was always usable but it needed a revamp.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding
has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Like vehicle insurance where if it's not kept 'continuous' you risk
losing NCB (or did). At least with NCB you hope to build it back up
over time ... not easy to undo a loft conversion ... ?

Cheers, T i m

I was chatting to a man in planning the other day. As loft conversions have
to be notified too the council
to get a lawful development certificate, this is at the discretion of the
council whether they reband it or not.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Bert Coules wrote:

I've just received notification that the banding has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.
Ah, one of those things that I thought "everybody knew".

Also they can get re-valued at change of hands, so beware if buying a
property that the estate agent says is e.g. band B, if it has the
"improvement indicator" on this website, it could move up a band when you
buy it ...

http://cti.voa.gov.uk/cti/inits.asp

Brian Gaff wrote:

...this is at the discretion of the council whether they reband it or not.

That's interesting, Brian. I spoke to the council this morning and they
told me the banding change hadn't been made by them but by the Valuation
Office.

In article , Bert
Coules writes
"Robin" wrote:

As a general rule* it's only the those who have the property taken of
the list while it's being rebuilt who get an increased band.

Thanks. I wish I'd known that a year ago!


Don't worry. We'll all be screwed if Corbyn ever get sin.
--
bert

On 18/07/2017 14:36, Bert Coules wrote:
John, that's interesting, thanks. Two other properties in my street
have done similar work: a loft conversion and a small rear extension. I
must check and see what band they're on.

The trouble is there have been cases of one resident complaining that
his or her CT was higher than their neighbours and they have ended up
with the whole street being re-valued upwards!

SteveW

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:47:54 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding
has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Like vehicle insurance where if it's not kept 'continuous' you risk
losing NCB (or did). At least with NCB you hope to build it back up
over time ... not easy to undo a loft conversion ... ?

Cheers, T i m

I thought your NCB could be used up to two years dorment ? ......

You may well be right, or might have been right if things have changed
etc? Daughter was going to put her Suzuki 600 Bandit on a SORN for
now, simply because she couldn't justify insuring it (especially fully
comp) and didn't want to loose her NCB. The broker suggested she put
in on TPF&F that was about 1/3rd the price, so she could still ride it
if she wanted. I'm not sure if they confirmed the 2 year period and
I'm not sure if what applies to bikes also applies to cars etc?

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 18/07/2017 14:36, Bert Coules wrote:
John, that's interesting, thanks. Two other properties in my street
have done similar work: a loft conversion and a small rear extension.
I must check and see what band they're on.

The trouble is there have been cases of one resident complaining that
his or her CT was higher than their neighbours and they have ended up
with the whole street being re-valued upwards!

SteveW

We had that a few years ago and successfully challenged it.

"The value is based on the price the property would have sold for on the
open market on 1 April 1991 in England and 1 April 2003 in Wales."
See:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understa...s-are-assessed

We got the information on local house prices in 1991 from the archives of
the local paper and when the council officials visited they admitted that
it was a borderline case and it wasn't worth their while trying to enforce
a change.

Alan

--


Using an ARMX6

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:36:28 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

John, that's interesting, thanks. Two other properties in my street have
done similar work: a loft conversion and a small rear extension. I must
check and see what band they're on.

Check he https://www.gov.uk/council-tax-bands
Properties that are subject to rebanding when sold are flagged with an
'improvement indicator'.
(I think this is attached if a property has been altered after
obtaining planning permission. In my street, two extended houses, that
had pp, are flagged but mine, which was extended without, as a
permitted development, isn't. (And my house was rebanded downwards
after the extension was built. £3,000+ refund!))

Peter Johnson wrote:

(And my house was rebanded downwards
after the extension was built. £3,000+ refund!)

Wow. Was it a really rotten extension?

Thanks for the link.

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:25:33 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Peter Johnson wrote:

(And my house was rebanded downwards after the extension was built.
£3,000+ refund!)

Wow. Was it a really rotten extension?

Thanks for the link.


Well, my car insurance went down after I had an accident ...


--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 22:02:59 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:47:54 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding
has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Like vehicle insurance where if it's not kept 'continuous' you risk
losing NCB (or did). At least with NCB you hope to build it back up
over time ... not easy to undo a loft conversion ... ?

Cheers, T i m

I thought your NCB could be used up to two years dorment ? ......

You may well be right, or might have been right if things have changed
etc? Daughter was going to put her Suzuki 600 Bandit on a SORN for
now, simply because she couldn't justify insuring it (especially fully
comp) and didn't want to loose her NCB. The broker suggested she put
in on TPF&F that was about 1/3rd the price, so she could still ride it
if she wanted. I'm not sure if they confirmed the 2 year period and
I'm not sure if what applies to bikes also applies to cars etc?

Different companies have different rules. I used to have two cars, insured by seperate companies. I sold one, and it's insurance company said I could keep my NCD on file forever if I were to buy a 2nd car again.

--
There is more money being spent on breast implants and Viagra today than on Alzheimer's research. This means that by 2040, there should be a large elderly population with perky boobs and huge erections and absolutely no recollection of what to do with them.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Council tax doesn't make sense. You buy a house and live in for 20 years, it increases in value, but you still pay the band it was in when you bought it. You sell the house, and the new owner has to pay a much higher band. Completely illogical.

--
Why do Italians hate Jehovah's Witnesses?
Italians hate ALL witnesses.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:20:35 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Bob Eager
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:25:33 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Peter Johnson wrote:

(And my house was rebanded downwards after the extension was built.
£3,000+ refund!)

Wow. Was it a really rotten extension?

Thanks for the link.

Well, my car insurance went down after I had an accident ...

Oh - did it improve the car? :-)

No idea! It's a mystery. Perhaps they thought I'd be more careful in
future.


--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:35:02 +0100, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:



Council tax doesn't make sense. You buy a house and live in for 20 years, it increases in value, but you still pay the band it was in when you bought it. You sell the house, and the new owner has to pay a much higher band. Completely illogical.

No. The new owner only pays more if there have been changes to the
property which put it into a higher band, otherwise they pay the same.

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:25:33 +0100, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

Peter Johnson wrote:

(And my house was rebanded downwards
after the extension was built. £3,000+ refund!)

Wow. Was it a really rotten extension?

Letter from a firm of solicitors that I'd never heard of, saying that
they's noticed that a house in the street had been rebanded and
offering to submit an appeal on my behalf. If successful they would
take 25% of the refund.
I thought that if there was anything in it I should be able to make a
claim without using a solicitor. Google found me the VOA website which
showed that some houses in the street similar or larger than mine were
banded lower. A phone call registered the claim, when I was warned
that an investigation could mean my house stayed the same while other
properties would be rebanded upwards. Five/six weeks later, I received
notification that my claim had been successful.

Peter Johnson wrote:

I was warned that an investigation could mean my house stayed the
same while other properties would be rebanded upwards
Any implication that those banded upwards would know who had requested
the investigation?

That's fascinating Peter, thanks.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:06:15 +0100, Peter Johnson wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 00:35:02 +0100, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Council tax doesn't make sense. You buy a house and live in for 20 years, it increases in value, but you still pay the band it was in when you bought it. You sell the house, and the new owner has to pay a much higher band. Completely illogical.

No. The new owner only pays more if there have been changes to the
property which put it into a higher band, otherwise they pay the same.

Not what I've heard. I'm paying council tax on my house as though it's worth what I paid for it in 2000. At the 2017 price, I should be a couple of bands higher. If I sold it, they'd use the latest sale price.

--
What does Michael Jackson like about twenty-eight year olds?
The fact that there are twenty of them.

In article , James Wilkinson Sword
writes
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Council tax doesn't make sense. You buy a house and live in for 20
years, it increases in value, but you still pay the band it was in when
you bought it. You sell the house, and the new owner has to pay a much
higher band. Completely illogical.

No more illogical than basing council tax on property value in the first
place.
--
bert

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 21:17:12 +0100, bert wrote:

In article , James Wilkinson Sword
writes
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:23:36 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

Only peripherally to do with DIY, I'm afraid...

Last year I had a loft conversion done on my bungalow: it was a long and
messy job and I moved out for nearly six months. I decided to remove the
property from the valuation register to avoid paying council tax while I
wasn't living there.

The property went back on the register in January, and naturally I started
paying tax again. Now, I've just received notification that the banding has
been increased from C to D - removing the bungalow from the register
apparently allows them to revalue it when it goes back on.

If I'd realised that, I would have continued paying at the old rate while
the work was being done. Saving six months worth of council tax will cost
me several thousand pounds in the future.

Which is annoying.

Council tax doesn't make sense. You buy a house and live in for 20
years, it increases in value, but you still pay the band it was in when
you bought it. You sell the house, and the new owner has to pay a much
higher band. Completely illogical.

No more illogical than basing council tax on property value in the first
place.

Yes it is, they're basing it on an incorrect value.

--
I lost the trivia contest at the church social last night by one point.
The last question was: "Where do most women have curly hair?"
Apparently the correct answer is "Africa".
I've been asked to find another placed to worship....