Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele

On 03/03/2017 18:59, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

I was going to ask if you had access to a DVM but on reflection it
sounds like an intermittent fault.

Is this car of an age when they were fitted with an OBD connector? If so
then a pod connected to either a laptop or a phone will give a
continuous voltage reading.

It's not a VW is it? The reason I say is a friend had a similar problem
to do with updated software and a subsequent current drain.

On 03-Mar-17 6:59 PM, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele



Could be the alternator, but I'd double check the battery connections
and the earthing from the battery to the chassis. Could also be a
starter motor problem, check the spade connector terminal on it.

No if it were the starter the clock would not reset.

Really needs to check the drain when nothing should be going on. Care needs
to be taken here as taking the battery off line for too long can bugger up
the radio coding.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Joe Bloggs" wrote in message
...
On 03-Mar-17 6:59 PM, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele



Could be the alternator, but I'd double check the battery connections and
the earthing from the battery to the chassis. Could also be a starter
motor problem, check the spade connector terminal on it.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
news
No if it were the starter the clock would not reset.

If the current drawn by the starter motor causes the terminal voltage to
drop too far (eg due to high internal resistance of battery or its contacts)
then it will drop below the threshold that the clock needs to make it work.
That will reset the clock.

On 03/03/2017 18:59, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele

Something is discharging the battery. Either the battery is duff and is
discharging itself or there is an electrical fault which is drawing
current from the battery when the car is parked.

To find out which, leave the car overnight and then measure the battery
voltage. Chances are that it will have gone down a lot. Then charge it
and run the car and then disconnect the battery before leaving it
overnight. If it has still gone down, the battery is duff. If it hasn't,
you need to investigate the 'leak'.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 03-Mar-17 8:01 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
On 03/03/2017 18:59, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele

Something is discharging the battery. Either the battery is duff and is
discharging itself or there is an electrical fault which is drawing
current from the battery when the car is parked.

To find out which, leave the car overnight and then measure the battery
voltage. Chances are that it will have gone down a lot. Then charge it
and run the car and then disconnect the battery before leaving it
overnight. If it has still gone down, the battery is duff. If it hasn't,
you need to investigate the 'leak'.

That wouldn't explain number 6.

On 03/03/2017 20:03, Joe Bloggs wrote:

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.



That wouldn't explain number 6.

A few miles on a uncharged battery results in a still uncharged battery

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 03-Mar-17 8:23 PM, alan_m wrote:
On 03/03/2017 20:03, Joe Bloggs wrote:

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few
moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.



That wouldn't explain number 6.

A few miles on a uncharged battery results in a still uncharged battery


Depends how many miles and whether or not on those specific occasions
the battery was actually 'uncharged' to start with - and he/she did say
'several miles'.

On 03/03/2017 21:02, Joe Bloggs wrote:
On 03-Mar-17 8:23 PM, alan_m wrote:
On 03/03/2017 20:03, Joe Bloggs wrote:

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few
moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

That wouldn't explain number 6.

A few miles on a uncharged battery results in a still uncharged battery

Depends how many miles and whether or not on those specific occasions
the battery was actually 'uncharged' to start with - and he/she did say
'several miles'.

Several miles in winter when headlights tend to get used more may not be
enough to restore the energy taken from the battery to start the car.

A cheap DVM will show the state of charge of the battery.

Checking battery voltage with and without the engine running will show
if the alternator is performing.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

alan_m wrote:

On 03/03/2017 20:03, Joe Bloggs wrote:

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.



That wouldn't explain number 6.

A few miles on a uncharged battery results in a still uncharged battery

The battery on both those occasions was charged well enough to start the
car.

Daniele

"D.M. Procida" wrote in
message
...
alan_m wrote:

On 03/03/2017 20:03, Joe Bloggs wrote:

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few
moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.



That wouldn't explain number 6.

A few miles on a uncharged battery results in a still uncharged battery

The battery on both those occasions was charged well enough to start the
car.

That does suggest that the battery isn't charging after it has started the
engine and during the subsequent running - either because the
alternator/charging circuitry has failed or because something is drawing a
large current so the alternator cannot supply sufficient current both to
supply that load and at the same time replenish the battery charge that has
been taken out during starting.

I'd suggest:

- If you can manage without the car for a day, charge the battery using a
battery charger and then leave it for 24 hours without being connected to
anything: this will eliminate self-discharge.

- If you have an ammeter that can measure large currents, connect it in
series with the battery in the car with a) the ignition and everything else
switched off, b) the ignition on but engine not running. DO NOT LEAVE IT IN
PLACE WHEN YOU START THE ENGINE because the starter motor current will
probably blow the ammeter or fry its leads. If there is a significant spark
when you reconnect the charged battery (without the ammeter) then that
suggests that a large current is being drawn, so maybe it's not wise to use
the ammeter in that case.

- Measure the charging voltage (voltmeter across the battery) when the
engine is idling and when it's revving at 2000 rpm. Certainly in the latter
case you should see around 14V - higher than the voltage without the engine
running.

- Measure the battery voltage with the ignition on but the engine not
running - does this cause the battery voltage to fall below the no-load
voltage of about 12V?

- Get the battery tested at a garage or at Halford's.

On 03/03/17 20:01, Roger Mills wrote:
On 03/03/2017 18:59, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele

Something is discharging the battery. Either the battery is duff and is
discharging itself or there is an electrical fault which is drawing
current from the battery when the car is parked.

To find out which, leave the car overnight and then measure the battery
voltage. Chances are that it will have gone down a lot. Then charge it
and run the car and then disconnect the battery before leaving it
overnight. If it has still gone down, the battery is duff. If it hasn't,
you need to investigate the 'leak'.

Listen to this man. He saved me writing exactly the same

--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

On 03/03/2017 18:59, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele



Several miles isn't enough to charge a battery especially this time of
year when you may have the heated front/back screen operational and/or
driving with the lights on.

My guess that something electrical isn't switching off. A friend once
had similar problems and found the the tailgate switch for the light in
the 'boot' had failed and the light was permanently on - only found when
the rear parcel shelf had been removed and the light could be seen at night.

Try buying a voltmeter that fits in the power socket / cigarette lighter
It should show 14+ Volts when the alternator is charging the battery
(perhaps after a good few miles of driving and with lights and screen
heater off)

Ebay listing taken at random

https://tinyurl.com/h63p4am

OR

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hakkin-2-i...8AAOSw241Ydwg-






--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 03/03/2017 18:59, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.



Shagged battery would be my first guess. What would you call "fairly new"?


--
Adam

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:59:08 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:

Here are the facts:

snip

8. The battery is fairly new.

Until that point I was going to say knackered batteyr and cold.
Batteries these days sometimes have a hydgrometer built in. Little
sight thingy that probably shows green for OK and black for Not OK.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Some one else has mentioned poor battery connections. Check those and
all the connections involving thick cables, battery to starter motor,
battery to chassis and chassis to engine block, there should be one
and probably more earth straps from engine to chassis. Try using half
a jump lead set to connect engine block to battery (chassis coonected
terminal) and see if it starts a better. Another check is to touch
each connection after you've tried and failed to start the engine,
the faulty ones will be warm if not hot...

--
Cheers
Dave.

8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

Take it to a garage and ask for a drop test - that will verify that one
way or another, quickly.

Next, get a volt meter that plugs in the cigarette socket (ebay, amazon,
cheap as chips).

Drive and if it doesn't get to at least 14V your alternator (or wiring)
has a problem.

Tim Watts wrote:

8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

That's what I thought, which is why this battery is fairly new.
Unfortunately, despite the change of battery, the problem slowly
continued to get worse.

In fact, after I changed the battery, I realised I'd changed the battery
once before and had simply forgotten that!

So I don't believe the problem is the battery itself.

Daniele

In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

That's what I thought, which is why this battery is fairly new.
Unfortunately, despite the change of battery, the problem slowly
continued to get worse.

In fact, after I changed the battery, I realised I'd changed the battery
once before and had simply forgotten that!

So I don't believe the problem is the battery itself.

Batteries are very expensive items. And are easy enough to test with the
correct equipment. Not something I'd fit a new one of on a whim.

Any auto electrician should be able to test the battery, charging system
and check for high quiescent load in a matter of minutes.

--
*PMS jokes aren't funny; period.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 04/03/2017 11:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

That's what I thought, which is why this battery is fairly new.
Unfortunately, despite the change of battery, the problem slowly
continued to get worse.

In fact, after I changed the battery, I realised I'd changed the battery
once before and had simply forgotten that!

So I don't believe the problem is the battery itself.

Batteries are very expensive items. And are easy enough to test with the
correct equipment. Not something I'd fit a new one of on a whim.

Any auto electrician should be able to test the battery, charging system
and check for high quiescent load in a matter of minutes.

You mean one who sells new batteries?

--
Max Demian

In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
Any auto electrician should be able to test the battery, charging
system and check for high quiescent load in a matter of minutes.

You mean one who sells new batteries?

No. I mean an auto electrician. Might be hard to find one, of course.

I bought myself an ACT battery tester ages ago. Not cheap, but does test a
battery quickly and easily. I'd hope any place claiming to test batteries
would have something similar.

--
*Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
D.M. Procida writes
Tim Watts wrote:

8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

That's what I thought, which is why this battery is fairly new.
Unfortunately, despite the change of battery, the problem slowly
continued to get worse.

In fact, after I changed the battery, I realised I'd changed the battery
once before and had simply forgotten that!

So I don't believe the problem is the battery itself.

Daniele

As has been suggested
1. Check voltage at battery terminals with engine running - should be
13.8 or greater. If not then you have an alternator/charging controls
problem.
2. Second likely problem is poor connection of the heavy duty leads
between battery negative and chassis/engine block. Check these. Grip the
cable and give a hard twist. ANY movement indicates problem. May be as
well to check the positive connection also.
No point discussing other possibilities until these two actions have
been completed.
--
bert

bert wrote:

In article
,
D.M. Procida writes
Tim Watts wrote:

8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

That's what I thought, which is why this battery is fairly new.
Unfortunately, despite the change of battery, the problem slowly
continued to get worse.

In fact, after I changed the battery, I realised I'd changed the battery
once before and had simply forgotten that!

So I don't believe the problem is the battery itself.

Daniele

As has been suggested
1. Check voltage at battery terminals with engine running - should be
13.8 or greater. If not then you have an alternator/charging controls
problem.
2. Second likely problem is poor connection of the heavy duty leads
between battery negative and chassis/engine block. Check these. Grip the
cable and give a hard twist. ANY movement indicates problem. May be as
well to check the positive connection also.
No point discussing other possibilities until these two actions have
been completed.

The only thing I would add is that it is possible to get a false
negative in test 1. The alternator can be producing a significant
charging current, sufficient to raise the voltage under test conditions,
but still unable to produce sufficient current to maintain battery
charge in ordinary driving. Especially in the dark or in Winter. To be
sure you need to actually measure how much current the altenator can
produce at highish revs, most easily with a DC clamp meter.


--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
The only thing I would add is that it is possible to get a false
negative in test 1. The alternator can be producing a significant
charging current, sufficient to raise the voltage under test conditions,
but still unable to produce sufficient current to maintain battery
charge in ordinary driving. Especially in the dark or in Winter. To be
sure you need to actually measure how much current the altenator can
produce at highish revs, most easily with a DC clamp meter.

Or simply switch on all the normal loads like headlamps and heater etc and
check the voltage again. With the engine at a fast idle. If the alternator
can't balance the load the voltage will be low too.

--
*Real men don't waste their hormones growing hair

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-03, D.M. Procida wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

That's what I thought, which is why this battery is fairly new.

Allowing car batteries to go completely flat, e.g., in a car which is
not often used, destroys them. Until I got a trickle charger, I'd
be lucky to get 8 months out of a car battery.

Why let it go flat? If the car isn't much used, fit a battery disconnect
device. A lead acid battery has very slow self discharge. Of course you
may them have to enter the radio etc code each time you use it. Same as if
you let the battery go flat. ;-)

--
*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 3/3/2017 10:07 PM, Tim Watts wrote:
8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

Take it to a garage and ask for a drop test - that will verify that one
way or another, quickly.

Next, get a volt meter that plugs in the cigarette socket (ebay, amazon,
cheap as chips).

+1. I have had a couple of vehicles which have shown these sort of
erratic symptoms, and one which still does. It's a van which only gets
intermittent use (and doesn't bleep at you if you park with the lights on).

After having to get a couple of the lads at Wickes to bump start me
after I had loaded half a ton of ballast in it, my fix is to carry one
of these all the time:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLOUREON-1...AOSwp5JWbVe z

Even my wife can use it! Usually at Sainsburys though.

Also handy as it will recharge a mobile or satnav even when parked up.


Drive and if it doesn't get to at least 14V your alternator (or wiring)
has a problem.

On 04/03/17 00:14, newshound wrote:
On 3/3/2017 10:07 PM, Tim Watts wrote:
8/10 of my votes are simply on a dead battery.

Take it to a garage and ask for a drop test - that will verify that one
way or another, quickly.

Next, get a volt meter that plugs in the cigarette socket (ebay, amazon,
cheap as chips).

+1. I have had a couple of vehicles which have shown these sort of
erratic symptoms, and one which still does. It's a van which only gets
intermittent use (and doesn't bleep at you if you park with the lights on).

After having to get a couple of the lads at Wickes to bump start me
after I had loaded half a ton of ballast in it, my fix is to carry one
of these all the time:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FLOUREON-1...AOSwp5JWbVe z


Even my wife can use it! Usually at Sainsburys though.

Also handy as it will recharge a mobile or satnav even when parked up.



I have the DBPower branded very similar version. It started a dead 2l VW
diesel twice without any effort on its part.

The only thing that makes me nervous is it being a very high density
lithium battery in a hot car - so I tend to take it out in summer. But
summer usually gives me less problems than winter.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 22:07:26 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

Next, get a volt meter that plugs in the cigarette socket (ebay, amazon,
cheap as chips).

Drive and if it doesn't get to at least 14V your alternator (or wiring)
has a problem.

Assuming it isn't the battery (and the battery can go bad from just a very few
deep discharges, os it probably is):

Get a multimeter and measure the voltage between terminals, around 13ish on the
battery ("battery is full"), 14-something when running and charging ("battery
charges").

A multimeter also can be used to measure the voltage drop *along* a cable: if
there is a significant voltage difference (tens to hundreds of millivolts) along
a connection with the car running, then that connection is bad... So, with the
engine running, the voltage between (say) the negative battery terminal and the
chassis should be a few hundred millivolts at the very most. More, and this is a
sign that the connection is bad.

A bad connection is a Good Thing, because it can be easily fixed... usually
corrosion on the ends/terminals.


Thomas Prufer

In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Quick guess. The alternator has a diode failed short circuit. Which is not
only discharging the battery when the engine is stopped, but preventing
the alternator from giving the full charge too.

Of course it could be other reasons. A few minutes with a decent DVM can
measure any current flow with the engine switched off - and the output of
the alternator.

--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Sounds like knackered alternator (and now, damaged battery, to boot).

I ran a crappy VW Polo for a few miserable weeks during the winter, many years ago. The alternator was broken and the symptoms were the same as you describe. The battery needed daily charging and I was fearful of putting on the lights, rear screen heater or any other non-essential electrics, since these would increase the rate of depletion of the battery (beyond necessary consumption by ignition electrics) and consequently, my range, while driving.

Terry.

wrote:

Sounds like knackered alternator (and now, damaged battery, to boot).

I ran a crappy VW Polo for a few miserable weeks during the winter, many
years ago. The alternator was broken and the symptoms were the same as you
describe. The battery needed daily charging and I was fearful of putting
on the lights, rear screen heater or any other non-essential electrics,
since these would increase the rate of depletion of the battery (beyond
necessary consumption by ignition electrics) and consequently, my range,
while driving.

Terry.

Yes I agree. A high discharge rate when parked needs eliminating but
wouldn't explain all the symptoms. Low output alternator with rapid
deterioration of the new battery is the likeliest explanation. Cheap
modern batteries often don't survive even one deep discharge event.
Once the alternator is fixed I recommend a new battery, even if the old
one seems to work.


--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Once the alternator is fixed I recommend a new battery, even if the old
one seems to work.

You'd simply lash out up to about £100 or so without testing the old one?

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Once the alternator is fixed I recommend a new battery, even if the old
one seems to work.

You'd simply lash out up to about £100 or so without testing the old one?

If I knew it had been too flat to start the car a few times, yes.
Life's too short.
--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Once the alternator is fixed I recommend a new battery, even if the
old one seems to work.

You'd simply lash out up to about £100 or so without testing the old
one?

If I knew it had been too flat to start the car a few times, yes.
Life's too short.

If you have a charging fault, the new battery will be exactly the same.

--
*HOW DO THEY GET DEER TO CROSS THE ROAD ONLY AT THOSE YELLOW ROAD SIGNS?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Friday, 3 March 2017 18:59:11 UTC, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele

Disconnect battery and charge with battery charger.
Next morning/day, (ie when the battery has been left for a while not connected to anything) reconnect and try to start car.
If car starts, battery is OK and something in the car is draining the battery or the alternator is not charging the battery.

The object of the exercise being to see if a known to be fully charged battery will hold a charge when it's not connected to anything that could discharge it.

Well apart from that what about the contacts to the battery and elsewhere?

Also could there be a rather high current leak across it. I remember back in
them days of yore when cars were simple, a friends cortina was doing this,
then one night in the street it caught firere due to a short in the loom.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"D.M. Procida" wrote in
message
...
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele

D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across
the electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day
or so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few
moments after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't
start and needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele

There's a bad connection from the battery.

Take both leads off, clean the terminals and the connectors with wire wool /
wire brush and reconnect.
If it's the same, I'd be looking at the negative lead where it connects to
the car body or where the live goes to the alternator.

If it's neither of those then it's a new alternator required.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:59:08 -0000, Phil L wrote:

Take both leads off, clean the terminals and the connectors with wire
wool / wire brush and reconnect.

With a smear of vaseline, it helps keep the acid fumes from corroding
the connenctions.

If it's the same, I'd be looking at the negative lead where it connects
to the car body or where the live goes to the alternator.

And each end of the engine block to chassis straps.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 03/03/17 18:59, D.M. Procida wrote:
Here are the facts:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

I'm assuming that the problem is the alternator failing to charge the
battery properly, but no. 6 is a puzzle to me.

Thanks,

Daniele



If it is an older car, with a simple ignition circuit, does the ignition
light come on when you turn the ignition on?

If not, check the wiring and bulb.

Other possibilities:

Poor earth connection- battery to chassis or engine to chassis.

Assuming you've not added something recently which is drawing current
while the ignition is not only off, but the key is removed, a wiring
issue. Look at the door switch wires, they often get damaged.

Alternator

D.M. Procida wrote:

1. The car is used once or twice a week, mostly for short trips.

2. Nearly every time we use it, the battery is too dead to turn the
engine over and it needs to be charged. In fact it's so dead that even
trying will produce nothing but a click and drop the voltage across the
electrical system so low that it resets the clock.

3. After 20 minutes or so of charging, it'll start without difficulty
(it's only a 1.2l engine).

4. Alternatively, a quick push will do the trick.

5. If it has just recently been on a long drive (in the previous day or
so), or has been used once that day already, it will start without
problems, though.

6. More than once recently though I've stopped the car for a few moments
after driving several miles, and will find that it doesn't start and
needs a push to get going again.

7. It's getting worse.

8. The battery is fairly new.

Thanks for the many replies.

On the basis of advice, I disconnected the battery five days ago
(Sunday), charged it up, and left it disconnected. This morning
(Thursday) I reconnected it; the engine started immediately without
issue (and the same for multiple subsequent starts).

The battery reads about 12.3v while connected and the same disconnected.
At idle, it reads just about 14.3v.

I couldn't read anything between the battery earth and the chassis.

So it sounds to me that the battery is fine.

What do you suggest for the next step in the investigation?

Daniele