My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core sheath.
At least they have put a bit of red tape to mark the switched live

Is this a common way of doing things ..... I have never wired up this
way ... even if using junction boxes method rather than loop-in ceiling
roses, always used t&e to the light point.

The issue here is that there is no earth at lighting point ......... 2
of the ceiling lights require earths ....... so looks like my job this
weekend is to find a suitable point to pick up earth feed for each light
..... I'm sure it is going to be a lot of hassle.


Surprisingly one thing I did notice there is a standard 3 pin AC
switched socket in the bathroom ... fitted at skirting level about 6"
from the bath !
My boy is not very happy that I am insisting on removing this or no more
work.

When I went to knock off lighting cct - found that previous owner had
done some 'boxing in' around the CU & meter ... unfortunately built it
such that you can't open the flap on the CU .... frame blocks it - you
gotta love bodgers !


Was looking for power feed to his boiler ... and behind his kitchen
units found 2 fused spur sockets hanging in mid air from a ring main,
providing feeds to washing machine & boiler - incredible someone would
leave then simply hanging - I assume they must have been fitted some way
to a previous layout and were left in that state when new kitchen fitted
..... out of sight out of mind !

Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 17:59:03 UTC, rick wrote:
My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core sheath.
At least they have put a bit of red tape to mark the switched live

Is this a common way of doing things ..... I have never wired up this
way ... even if using junction boxes method rather than loop-in ceiling
roses, always used t&e to the light point.

The issue here is that there is no earth at lighting point ......... 2
of the ceiling lights require earths ....... so looks like my job this
weekend is to find a suitable point to pick up earth feed for each light
.... I'm sure it is going to be a lot of hassle.


Surprisingly one thing I did notice there is a standard 3 pin AC
switched socket in the bathroom ... fitted at skirting level about 6"
from the bath !
My boy is not very happy that I am insisting on removing this or no more
work.

When I went to knock off lighting cct - found that previous owner had
done some 'boxing in' around the CU & meter ... unfortunately built it
such that you can't open the flap on the CU .... frame blocks it - you
gotta love bodgers !


Was looking for power feed to his boiler ... and behind his kitchen
units found 2 fused spur sockets hanging in mid air from a ring main,
providing feeds to washing machine & boiler - incredible someone would
leave then simply hanging - I assume they must have been fitted some way
to a previous layout and were left in that state when new kitchen fitted
.... out of sight out of mind !

Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

It must have been bogus. No-one with a clue passes 2 core lighting.


NT

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.




--
Adam

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:38:44 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.

I think the company that did the inspection should remain.

On 04/01/2017 18:53, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:38:44 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.

I think the company that did the inspection should remain.


For now I would have to disagree. The company name on the cert may not
have been issued by the company or indeed have done the inspection!



--
Adam

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 19:02:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 04/01/2017 18:53, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:38:44 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.

I think the company that did the inspection should remain.


For now I would have to disagree. The company name on the cert may not
have been issued by the company or indeed have done the inspection!

and a competitor might have something to do with this.


NT

On 04/01/2017 19:17, wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 19:02:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 04/01/2017 18:53, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:38:44 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.

I think the company that did the inspection should remain.


For now I would have to disagree. The company name on the cert may not
have been issued by the company or indeed have done the inspection!

and a competitor might have something to do with this.

Well they were NOT my first thoughts.



--
Adam

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 19:02:51 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 18:53, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:38:44 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.

I think the company that did the inspection should remain.


For now I would have to disagree. The company name on the cert may not
have been issued by the company or indeed have done the inspection!

Am I missing something? Without the name of the company or the
location of the work, what purpose does sharing the cerfificate
achieve? Is it just so we can all enjoy a virtual argument?

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 20:30:30 +0000, Scott
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 19:02:51 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 18:53, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:38:44 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.

I think the company that did the inspection should remain.


For now I would have to disagree. The company name on the cert may not
have been issued by the company or indeed have done the inspection!

Am I missing something? Without the name of the company or the
location of the work, what purpose does sharing the cerfificate
achieve? Is it just so we can all enjoy a virtual argument?

It would at least show what the certificate claims to be. Does it
claim to be an EICR? Does it have a limited scope that excludes
lighting circuits (if that's even possible)?

On 04/01/2017 21:08, Caecilius wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 20:30:30 +0000, Scott
wrote:

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 19:02:51 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 18:53, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:38:44 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.

I think the company that did the inspection should remain.


For now I would have to disagree. The company name on the cert may not
have been issued by the company or indeed have done the inspection!

Am I missing something? Without the name of the company or the
location of the work, what purpose does sharing the cerfificate
achieve? Is it just so we can all enjoy a virtual argument?

It would at least show what the certificate claims to be. Does it
claim to be an EICR? Does it have a limited scope that excludes
lighting circuits (if that's even possible)?

I think you have covered about 90% of what I am thinking.




--
Adam

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 17:59:03 UTC, rick wrote:
My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core sheath.
At least they have put a bit of red tape to mark the switched live

Is this a common way of doing things ..... I have never wired up this
way ... even if using junction boxes method rather than loop-in ceiling
roses, always used t&e to the light point.

The issue here is that there is no earth at lighting point ......... 2
of the ceiling lights require earths ....... so looks like my job this
weekend is to find a suitable point to pick up earth feed for each light
.... I'm sure it is going to be a lot of hassle.


Surprisingly one thing I did notice there is a standard 3 pin AC
switched socket in the bathroom ... fitted at skirting level about 6"
from the bath !
My boy is not very happy that I am insisting on removing this or no more
work.

When I went to knock off lighting cct - found that previous owner had
done some 'boxing in' around the CU & meter ... unfortunately built it
such that you can't open the flap on the CU .... frame blocks it - you
gotta love bodgers !


Was looking for power feed to his boiler ... and behind his kitchen
units found 2 fused spur sockets hanging in mid air from a ring main,
providing feeds to washing machine & boiler - incredible someone would
leave then simply hanging - I assume they must have been fitted some way
to a previous layout and were left in that state when new kitchen fitted
.... out of sight out of mind !

Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Sounds to be the sort of job where a complete rewire is needed.
(Start from scratch).
There may well be other hidden problems.

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:04:10 -0800, tabbypurr wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 17:59:03 UTC, rick wrote:
My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core
.....
Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

It must have been bogus. No-one with a clue passes 2 core lighting.

Actually, it may well have got a 'Satisfactory' in an inspection if all
the fittings were Class 2 (plastic)
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...00126675/Best-
Practice-Guide-1.pdf
No idea about the other things, but you generally dont go round
dismantling everything during an inspection report.

On Thursday, 5 January 2017 18:41:36 UTC, Alan wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:04:10 -0800, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 17:59:03 UTC, rick wrote:

My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core
....
Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

It must have been bogus. No-one with a clue passes 2 core lighting.

Actually, it may well have got a 'Satisfactory' in an inspection if all
the fittings were Class 2 (plastic)
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...00126675/Best-
Practice-Guide-1.pdf
No idea about the other things, but you generally dont go round
dismantling everything during an inspection report.

Horse.

On 05/01/2017 21:22, wrote:
On Thursday, 5 January 2017 18:41:36 UTC, Alan wrote:
On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:04:10 -0800, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 17:59:03 UTC, rick wrote:

My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core
....
Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

It must have been bogus. No-one with a clue passes 2 core lighting.

Actually, it may well have got a 'Satisfactory' in an inspection if all
the fittings were Class 2 (plastic)
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...00126675/Best-
Practice-Guide-1.pdf
No idea about the other things, but you generally dont go round
dismantling everything during an inspection report.

Horse.


So what has Alan said that is wrong?


--
Adam

On 04/01/2017 18:38, ARW wrote:
On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.






I'll ask my boy for a copy

On 05/01/2017 09:48, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 17:59:03 UTC, rick wrote:
My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core sheath.
At least they have put a bit of red tape to mark the switched live

Is this a common way of doing things ..... I have never wired up this
way ... even if using junction boxes method rather than loop-in ceiling
roses, always used t&e to the light point.

The issue here is that there is no earth at lighting point ......... 2
of the ceiling lights require earths ....... so looks like my job this
weekend is to find a suitable point to pick up earth feed for each light
.... I'm sure it is going to be a lot of hassle.


Surprisingly one thing I did notice there is a standard 3 pin AC
switched socket in the bathroom ... fitted at skirting level about 6"
from the bath !
My boy is not very happy that I am insisting on removing this or no more
work.

When I went to knock off lighting cct - found that previous owner had
done some 'boxing in' around the CU & meter ... unfortunately built it
such that you can't open the flap on the CU .... frame blocks it - you
gotta love bodgers !


Was looking for power feed to his boiler ... and behind his kitchen
units found 2 fused spur sockets hanging in mid air from a ring main,
providing feeds to washing machine & boiler - incredible someone would
leave then simply hanging - I assume they must have been fitted some way
to a previous layout and were left in that state when new kitchen fitted
.... out of sight out of mind !

Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Sounds to be the sort of job where a complete rewire is needed.
(Start from scratch).
There may well be other hidden problems.



I have strongly suggested this to him .... but he does not want all the
mess that goes with chasing cables into walls etc.
It's his house - I can't force him.

I was amazed that a 13A outlet alongside bath !

I remember after moving in here back too long ago to remember, some years
on my did wanted to alter some of the wiring and after drilling through
some very strangely routed wall light cables simply chased diagonally in a
wall, he employed a very early transistor long wave radio, to follow the
mains wiring. It was shall we say, a revelation what people had done since
1939 when it was built. Cables wired to a plug behind a bit of chipboard
be plugged into a socket to put a mains socket in a wardrobe, Lights over
beds with no earth at all wired up with ordinary mains lead you might find
on a table lamp, electric fires wired to lighting circuits.
You could tell the times roughly as the original wire was rubber covered
then came rubber covered with a kind of woven sleeve, then pvc mains lead.
Lots of 5 amp unfused two pin sockets and round pin three pin sockets, some
actually did have earths some not.
In the end after he died and when several lights stopped working in the
upstairs and fuses blew for no reason we had the house rewired. Yes a mess
certainly but although it is not up to today's spec obviously recent checks
show good earths and everything still good.
Having said all of that of course, wiring sockets like suggested in this
thread into a bathroom at floor level in reach of a bath was even a bodge
too far in this house.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"rick" wrote in message
news
On 05/01/2017 09:48, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 17:59:03 UTC, rick wrote:
My son bought his first house ..... and my list of jobs to be done
increases weekly.

Last week he bought several new ceiling lights ......... it seems
existing lights were simply screwed to plasterboard - not even toggle
fittings - just standard plugs.
On each one I raised floorboards in room above and fitted solid noggins
to give good fixing.

Interesting observation so far in that the lights have been wired with
single core PVC insulated, PVC sheathed (6181Y) all in black core
sheath.
At least they have put a bit of red tape to mark the switched live

Is this a common way of doing things ..... I have never wired up this
way ... even if using junction boxes method rather than loop-in ceiling
roses, always used t&e to the light point.

The issue here is that there is no earth at lighting point ......... 2
of the ceiling lights require earths ....... so looks like my job this
weekend is to find a suitable point to pick up earth feed for each light
.... I'm sure it is going to be a lot of hassle.


Surprisingly one thing I did notice there is a standard 3 pin AC
switched socket in the bathroom ... fitted at skirting level about 6"
from the bath !
My boy is not very happy that I am insisting on removing this or no more
work.

When I went to knock off lighting cct - found that previous owner had
done some 'boxing in' around the CU & meter ... unfortunately built it
such that you can't open the flap on the CU .... frame blocks it - you
gotta love bodgers !


Was looking for power feed to his boiler ... and behind his kitchen
units found 2 fused spur sockets hanging in mid air from a ring main,
providing feeds to washing machine & boiler - incredible someone would
leave then simply hanging - I assume they must have been fitted some way
to a previous layout and were left in that state when new kitchen fitted
.... out of sight out of mind !

Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Sounds to be the sort of job where a complete rewire is needed.
(Start from scratch).
There may well be other hidden problems.



I have strongly suggested this to him .... but he does not want all the
mess that goes with chasing cables into walls etc.
It's his house - I can't force him.

I was amazed that a 13A outlet alongside bath !

In article ,
rick wrote:
Sounds to be the sort of job where a complete rewire is needed.
(Start from scratch).
There may well be other hidden problems.



I have strongly suggested this to him .... but he does not want all the
mess that goes with chasing cables into walls etc.
It's his house - I can't force him.

You'd need to do a careful examination. It's quite possible some of the
basic wiring is sound, and could be re-used. This might be worthwhile on a
DIY basis.

For example, with lighting circuits, there was quite a long period of time
where TW&E would have been used - but the earths simply not connected as
they weren't required by regs. If this is the case, it might be possible
to connect those earths without replacing (all) the wiring.
And remove all the bodges that may just have been added later.

If paying a pro, it's proably cheaper to start afresh.

--
*They told me I had type-A blood, but it was a Type-O.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 20/01/2017 23:21, rick wrote:
On 04/01/2017 18:38, ARW wrote:
On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Any chance you could share a copy of that certificate - obviously
removing all details of the house address and the company that did the
inspection etc?

If this is a genuine EICR then the company that issued it should be
brought to task.






I'll ask my boy for a copy


I'll look forward to seeing it.

The 13A socket next to the bath would be an instant failure.

--
Adam

On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Spent last weekend adding earth connections to his lights (such fun)
and I also removed the socket in the bathroom.

On further questioning .. it turns out he was verbally told all
electrics had safety certificate - but he was not given a copy of any
such certificate. So apologies for that incorrect piece of information.

While checking lights - found 2 wall light supplies consist of a t&e
cable and a choccy block ... they were both hidden behind picture frames.

Advised strongly that a full rewire should be done - he rejects that due
to mess it would cause.

I understand his issues - bought the house all been painted (for the
sale) and cutting channels into walls would make a lot of mess - but
would certainly do it if it were me.


Next job to persuade him that junction box & ac socket hanging in mid
air in the gap behind his kitchen units is not acceptable, and we should
resolve that and also put in a fused spur to the boiler - currently has
to knock off complete CU to isolate boiler.
( it is plugged into AC outlet behind kitchen units - but you can't get
to it to unplug or switch off)


Wiring been modified many times by look of it .. looks like there are
also multiple sockets daisy chained off each other ... almost a radial
added to a ring main.

On 01/02/2017 12:09, rick wrote:
On 04/01/2017 17:59, rick wrote:


Amazing condition on the some of the electrics - and house came with an
electrical inspection pass certificate !

Spent last weekend adding earth connections to his lights (such fun)
and I also removed the socket in the bathroom.

On further questioning .. it turns out he was verbally told all
electrics had safety certificate - but he was not given a copy of any
such certificate. So apologies for that incorrect piece of information.

While checking lights - found 2 wall light supplies consist of a t&e
cable and a choccy block ... they were both hidden behind picture
frames.

Advised strongly that a full rewire should be done - he rejects that due
to mess it would cause.

I understand his issues - bought the house all been painted (for the
sale) and cutting channels into walls would make a lot of mess - but
would certainly do it if it were me.


Next job to persuade him that junction box & ac socket hanging in mid
air in the gap behind his kitchen units is not acceptable, and we should
resolve that and also put in a fused spur to the boiler - currently has
to knock off complete CU to isolate boiler.
( it is plugged into AC outlet behind kitchen units - but you can't get
to it to unplug or switch off)


Wiring been modified many times by look of it .. looks like there are
also multiple sockets daisy chained off each other ... almost a radial
added to a ring main.

Thanks for that follow up.

You will have to do your best to polish a turd if you cannot do a rewire.

Good luck fella.


--
Adam

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
For example, with lighting circuits, there was quite a long period of time
where TW&E would have been used - but the earths simply not connected as
they weren't required by regs. If this is the case, it might be possible
to connect those earths without replacing (all) the wiring.

It's "protected by out of reach", but must be listed as such on any
installation test certificate in the "not to current regs" box - which
suggests the tester didn't actually bother checking anything.

I have one such light in my shop, but as you need scaffolding to get
anywhere near it it's perfectly safe. It'll get an earth the next
time the upstairs flat needs a new carpet and I can rip up the floor.