Anyone know of cheaper "unbranded" ones? For the limited use I'd make of one,
90 squid for a Bosch from Screwfix seems a bit much

"OldScrawn" wrote in message
...

Anyone know of cheaper "unbranded" ones? For the limited use I'd make of
one,
90 squid for a Bosch from Screwfix seems a bit much

That is for a driver really. 7.2V is not that powerful to use for constant
drilling, say in wooden joists. It only has one battery too. Do a google
on "angle drill", I recall seeing a mains operated one for around £90.
These have much more power. Unfortunately there are no cheap mains angle
drills. Protrade http://www.protrade-direct.co.uk sent me a catalogue and
are pushing a Roybio 14.4 v angle drill and a 14.4 v drill/driver and
charger and bag for £114 inc VAT & del. If you need two drills then is the
one to go for. DeWalt are selling a similar angle drill with two batteries
for around £170 Tool shops sell angle converters for around £12-15.



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You should be able to find the angle adapter that fits into you ordinary
drill chuck. Mine works great but don't often use it.

That URL should be http://www.protrade.co.uk/.


Thanks; the immediate need is for pilot holes & screws (fitting kitchen
cabinets) rather than joists, but that Ryobi deal looks good. Is everyone happy
with Ryobi (serious amateur, rather than pro)?

S

"OldScrawn" wrote in message
...

That URL should be http://www.protrade.co.uk/.

Thanks; the immediate need is for pilot holes & screws (fitting kitchen
cabinets) rather than joists, but that Ryobi deal looks good. Is everyone
happy
with Ryobi (serious amateur, rather than pro)?

I would say into the pro range. Protrade don't sell amateur DIY from what I
know.



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On 02 Dec 2003 21:05:46 GMT, (OldScrawn) wrote:

That URL should be http://www.protrade.co.uk/.


Thanks; the immediate need is for pilot holes & screws (fitting kitchen
cabinets) rather than joists, but that Ryobi deal looks good. Is everyone happy
with Ryobi (serious amateur, rather than pro)?

S

A better solution is to go for one of the branded makes and share the
batteries among several tools.

Take a look at
http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/isho...shopscr24.html

Some while ago I bought a Makita angle drill and actually have ended
up using it much more than I thought I would.
This site has the 12v version without battery and charger for £81
The torque on it is excellent because it is more highly geared than
regular drills and will comfortably drill through joists using an
auger bit rather than a spade bit. For pilot holes and driving
screws it's excellent.

I then have another Makita 12v drill which came with three batteries
and a fast charger in a special deal from Axminster Tools.
I can cycle three batteries through the charger and can basically run
both tools concurrently on a job.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 02 Dec 2003 21:05:46 GMT, (OldScrawn) wrote:

That URL should be http://www.protrade.co.uk/.

Thanks; the immediate need is for pilot holes & screws (fitting kitchen
cabinets) rather than joists, but that Ryobi deal looks good. Is everyone
happy
with Ryobi (serious amateur, rather than pro)?

A better solution is to go for one of the
branded makes and share the
batteries among several tools.

Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Take a look at
http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/isho...shopscr24.html

Some while ago I bought a Makita angle drill and actually have ended
up using it much more than I thought I would.
This site has the 12v version without battery and charger for £81
The torque on it is excellent because it is more highly geared than
regular drills and will comfortably drill through joists using an
auger bit rather than a spade bit. For pilot holes and driving
screws it's excellent.

Screwfix sell the 9.6v Makita for £160 and its cmes with"two" batteries.
One battery is worth about £60-70

I then have another Makita 12v drill which came with three batteries
and a fast charger in a special deal from Axminster Tools.
I can cycle three batteries through the charger and can basically run
both tools concurrently on a job.

How much for this 12v drill?



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On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 23:02:04 +0000 (UTC), "Jim"
(remove $ ) wrote:

You should be able to find the angle adapter that fits into you ordinary
drill chuck. Mine works great but don't often use it.



I find them a PITA if used for driving screws.
It can be difficult to hold the angle attachment to the screw and
manipulate the drill at the same time. Needs 3 hands !


Paul Mc Cann

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Not in the same sense as Makita, Bosch, etc.

They are more of an OEM manufacturer with products being labelled for
various outlets. For example, in the U.S. their own named products
are sold only through Home Depot.



Take a look at
http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/isho...shopscr24.html

Some while ago I bought a Makita angle drill and actually have ended
up using it much more than I thought I would.
This site has the 12v version without battery and charger for £81
The torque on it is excellent because it is more highly geared than
regular drills and will comfortably drill through joists using an
auger bit rather than a spade bit. For pilot holes and driving
screws it's excellent.


How much for this 12v drill?


At the time, IIRC, about £100 or so.






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---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Not in the same sense as Makita, Bosch, etc.

You are right. They begin with M and B not R.

They are more of an OEM manufacturer
with products being labelled for
various outlets. For example, in the U.S.
their own named products
are sold only through Home Depot.



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"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Mains angle drill £119.39 Inc VAT & del
http://www.worldofpower.co.uk/acatalog/angle_drill.html

Atachment £17:
http://www.ishop.co.uk/ishop/982/shopscr2066.html



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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Not in the same sense as Makita, Bosch, etc.

http://www.ryobi-group.co.jp/en/proj...ols/index.html

I have seen this attachment for sale in tool shops for £12
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,132.html


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In article ,
IMM wrote:
Screwfix sell the 9.6v Makita for £160 and its cmes with"two" batteries.
One battery is worth about £60-70

That would put each cell at approximately 8 quid. Don't be silly.

--
*Does fuzzy logic tickle? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:08:56 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Not in the same sense as Makita, Bosch, etc.

http://www.ryobi-group.co.jp/en/proj...ols/index.html

Your point being?

The important issue is the quality point in the market, the product
design and manufacturing and the service backup.

These are closely related to the strength of a brand in the market and
a well defined positioning.

For example, Bosch have a green range (DIY) and a blue range
(professional). Makita have predominantly a professional range.

They are broadly distributed and have the service backup to match.
I don't consider three year warranties with no real service and repair
a valid service offering because typically the product is junked at
the end of that period since it will have been superceded. I would
rather pay more for a higher quality product that will work better
throughout its long life.

Ryobi position themselves with a range of predominantly DIY tools but
do not have a strong brand position. Sorry, but a web site in Japan
doesn't cut it.

I suggest you read their annual report. In 2003 their power tool
sales fell by nealry 25% and they sold off their power tools
subsidiaries outside Japan. Their sales of power tools were at
only around $200M which is small for what they are doing. This,
coupled with the financial data does not give a strong impression of
commitment to the power tools market. Their main business is
diecastings and printing machines.

A lot of what they make goes in rebadged form on the U.S. market,
where as I mentioned they only sell their own bramd through Home
Depot. Home Depot has a service arrangement worse than anything
one has seen in the UK and plays the numbers game just like most UK
sheds do with their own brand tools.

For example, Ryobi produces Sears Craftsman tool range, which has an
apalling reputation nowadays in the U.S.

Private labelling of products has the advantage for a manufacturer
that they can deliver product to more outlets without incurring the
costs of maintaining their own support infrastructure. It's also a
way to fill the factory. The problem is that this way of doing
business is fiercely competitive and products have to be made down to
a price. This way of working suits products positioned for the
consumer market and sold through volume retail channels at cheap
prices.

That's fine for what it is, but it has nothing to do with quality.
This almost always comes from manufacturers who design and build good
quality products and take responsibility themselves for them.

As a comparison, take a look at Makita's annual report. This has a
much clearer message as to strategy and indicated increased sales
figures to nearly $1500M for the same period in 2002/2003. There was
a 20% increase in sales in Europe which also accounts for a third of
their business. They have subsidiary sales and support
organisations in virtually every country.

I would rather buy a higher quality and properly supported product,
which, when all is taken into account costs the about the same in the
long run as one that isn't, yet runs better and produces better
results.




I have seen this attachment for sale in tool shops for £12
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,132.html


I am sure that these are fine for what they are. However, the
dimensions of the gearbox appear to be a lot more than those of an
angle drill and may not fit into a small space which is where an angle
drill is often needed.




---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Ryobi position themselves with a range of predominantly DIY tools but
do not have a strong brand position.

I've only got the one Ryobi tool which is several years old now - it's a
rechargeable Dremmel type device which gets heavy use (on light work,
though) and I really can't fault it. Its batteries are original and have
lasted better than any other rechargeable I own regardless - and this is
IMHO the sign of quality. Nor was it expensive when bought from B&Q.

Sad that they didn't retain this quality/value compromise.

--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:33:34 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"OldScrawn" wrote in message
...

Anyone know of cheaper "unbranded" ones? For the limited use I'd make of
one,
90 squid for a Bosch from Screwfix seems a bit much

That is for a driver really. 7.2V is not that powerful to use for constant
drilling, say in wooden joists. It only has one battery too. Do a google
on "angle drill", I recall seeing a mains operated one for around £90.
These have much more power. Unfortunately there are no cheap mains angle
drills. Protrade http://www.protrade-direct.co.uk sent me a catalogue and
are pushing a Roybio 14.4 v angle drill and a 14.4 v drill/driver and
charger and bag for £114 inc VAT & del. If you need two drills then is the
one to go for. DeWalt are selling a similar angle drill with two batteries
for around £170 Tool shops sell angle converters for around £12-15.

That URL should be http://www.protrade.co.uk/.

--
cheers,

witchy/binarydinosaurs

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 02:08:56 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Not in the same sense as Makita, Bosch, etc.

http://www.ryobi-group.co.jp/en/proj...ols/index.html

Your point being?

They are a lathe Japanese corporation, not a Chinese DIY outfit.

Ryobi position themselves with a range of predominantly DIY tools but
do not have a strong brand position.

Not in the UK. In some countries some brands have status, while in other
countries they do.

I suggest you read their annual report. In 2003 their power tool
sales fell by nealry 25% and they sold off their power tools
subsidiaries outside Japan.

Making them in Japan gives status and they must be introducing new products.
Not many do battery angle drills.

Their sales of power tools were at
only around $200M which is small for what they are doing. This,
coupled with the financial data does not give a strong impression of
commitment to the power tools market. Their main business is
diecastings and printing machines.

A lot of what they make goes in rebadged form on the U.S. market,
where as I mentioned they only sell their own bramd through Home
Depot. Home Depot has a service arrangement worse than anything
one has seen in the UK and plays the numbers game just like most UK
sheds do with their own brand tools.

For example, Ryobi produces Sears Craftsman tool range, which has an
apalling reputation nowadays in the U.S.

Maybe that is what they sold off the overseas subs.

The point is: Ryobi are a Mickey Mouse outfit and are not poor quality.

I have seen this attachment for sale in tool shops for £12
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,132.html

I am sure that these are fine for what they are. However, the
dimensions of the gearbox appear to be a lot more than those of an
angle drill and may not fit into a small space which is where an angle
drill is often needed.

It is fine for the occasional drilling of say joists and the likes. I would
not use it for driving.


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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:42:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Ryobi is a brand, it's called, Ryobi.

Not in the same sense as Makita, Bosch, etc.

http://www.ryobi-group.co.jp/en/proj...ols/index.html

Your point being?

They are a lathe Japanese corporation, not a Chinese DIY outfit.

I don't think that they make lathes. Printing machines, but not
lathes. They are far from being large in japanese terms and in
power tools very small and apparently shrinking.


Ryobi position themselves with a range of predominantly DIY tools but
do not have a strong brand position.

Not in the UK. In some countries some brands have status, while in other
countries they do.

I suggest you read their annual report. In 2003 their power tool
sales fell by nealry 25% and they sold off their power tools
subsidiaries outside Japan.

Making them in Japan gives status and they must be introducing new products.
Not many do battery angle drills.

Like most companies, some production has moved to China. The issue
then becomes the effectiveness of the quality control.



Their sales of power tools were at
only around $200M which is small for what they are doing. This,
coupled with the financial data does not give a strong impression of
commitment to the power tools market. Their main business is
diecastings and printing machines.

A lot of what they make goes in rebadged form on the U.S. market,
where as I mentioned they only sell their own bramd through Home
Depot. Home Depot has a service arrangement worse than anything
one has seen in the UK and plays the numbers game just like most UK
sheds do with their own brand tools.

For example, Ryobi produces Sears Craftsman tool range, which has an
apalling reputation nowadays in the U.S.

Maybe that is what they sold off the overseas subs.

They sold off the subs, as stated in the annual report, because they
were losing money heavily. This raises a big question mark
concerning long term viability in the business area, certainly over
the support and maintenance.


The point is: Ryobi are a Mickey Mouse outfit and are not poor quality.


I wouldn't go as far as to describe them as a Mickey Mouse outfit, but
they are not, by their own positioning in the professional quality
market. Undoubtedly they are fit for purpose up to a point,.......



I have seen this attachment for sale in tool shops for £12
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,132.html

I am sure that these are fine for what they are. However, the
dimensions of the gearbox appear to be a lot more than those of an
angle drill and may not fit into a small space which is where an angle
drill is often needed.

It is fine for the occasional drilling of say joists and the likes. I would
not use it for driving.


---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:40:59 +0000, Paul Mc Cann
wrote:

I find them a PITA if used for driving screws.
It can be difficult to hold the angle attachment to the screw and
manipulate the drill at the same time. Needs 3 hands !

Dunno if the OP wants to drive screws or drill...

I've seen a chap who fit a drill chuck on an angle grinder (M14
thread?), which was fine for drilling, and sounds cheap...


Thomas Prufer

"Thomas Prufer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:40:59 +0000, Paul Mc Cann
wrote:

I find them a PITA if used for driving screws.
It can be difficult to hold the angle attachment to the screw and
manipulate the drill at the same time. Needs 3 hands !

Dunno if the OP wants to drive screws or drill...

I've seen a chap who fit a drill chuck on an angle grinder (M14
thread?), which was fine for drilling, and sounds cheap...

Sounds dangerous too.


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On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:15:16 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:
snip
Ryobi position themselves with a range of predominantly DIY tools but
do not have a strong brand position. Sorry, but a web site in Japan
doesn't cut it.

snip

I discovered some years back, to my cost, the difference between Ryobi
U.S.A. and Ryobi Japan. I had a perfectly good split boom strimmer
with various attachments which in a moment of madness I sold to a
brother-in-law and decided to treat myself to a new one.

The original was Japanese and the replacement U.S.A. The difference
was immediately obvious as soon as I took the new one out of the box.

Some time later whilst in a different suppliers the difference was
explained to me.

IME RYOBI U.S.A. products were IMHO junk whereas RYOBI Japan were
acceptable

My general experience with American manufactured garden products is
that they produce a lot of items manufactued down to a priice instead
of up to a standard.


Paul Mc Cann

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:35:07 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Thomas Prufer" wrote in message
(...)
I've seen a chap who fit a drill chuck on an angle grinder (M14
thread?), which was fine for drilling, and sounds cheap...

Sounds dangerous too.


Why? It's no more dangerous than a chuck spinning at a similar speed
in a straight drive...

Thomas Prufer

In article , Thomas
Prufer wrote:
Why? It's no more dangerous than a chuck spinning at a similar
speed in a straight drive...

Precisely: the small Ferm angle grinder sold by Screwfix has a
no load speed of 11,000 rpm whilst a drill would be 3,000rpm.

But I did muse a while back that for a change of gear ratios
they could be selling a £25 angle drill

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"Thomas Prufer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:35:07 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Thomas Prufer" wrote in message
(...)
I've seen a chap who fit a drill chuck on an angle grinder (M14
thread?), which was fine for drilling, and sounds cheap...

Sounds dangerous too.


Why? It's no more dangerous than a chuck spinning at a similar speed
in a straight drive...

Angle grinders tend to spin at far greater speeds and a chuck secured with a
bolt that was not designed for the task may create a metal lump to fly about
dangerously.


---
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Just to correct a few incorrect statements

Ryobi position themselves with a range of predominantly DIY tools but
do not have a strong brand position.

Ryobi are owned by Techtronic Industries in Hong Kong (www.tti.com.hk).
Ryobi as a brand is exclusive to Tool Bank in the UK, I believe. In other
markets it is a very strong brand. TTI are very strong in Power Tools,
making products for B&Q and JCB in the UK, Home Depot and Sears Roebuck in
the USA, for example.

This same company owns the floorcare brands VAX, Dirt Devil and Royal
Appliances. They manufacture for Bissell, Bosch, etc.

Their sales of power tools were at
only around $200M which is small for what they are doing. This,
coupled with the financial data does not give a strong impression of
commitment to the power tools market. Their main business is
diecastings and printing machines.
You are looking at the wrong company as Ryobi of Japan only manufacture for
the home market now. TTI who make the 'international' power tools have a
turnover in Power Tools of about USD1,000M. Compare this with Black and
Decker with approx USD3,100M (covering a wider product range), and you can
see that they are almost in the same league. TTI are expanding their share
and B&D are losing theirs.

A lot of what they make goes in rebadged form on the U.S. market,
where as I mentioned they only sell their own bramd through Home
Depot. Home Depot has a service arrangement worse than anything
one has seen in the UK and plays the numbers game just like most UK
sheds do with their own brand tools.

Ryobi brand is not exclusive to Home Depot in US.

The point is: Ryobi are a Mickey Mouse outfit and are not poor quality.

They are not a Mickey Mouse outfit and you are correct hta they are not poor
quality

I wouldn't go as far as to describe them as a Mickey Mouse outfit, but
they are not, by their own positioning in the professional quality
market. Undoubtedly they are fit for purpose up to a point,.......

TTI also make the Ridgid brand which is Home Depot's professional range as
well as semi pro own brand tools for UK retailers.

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:08:23 +0800, "Toolmaker"
wrote:

Just to correct a few incorrect statements

Ryobi position themselves with a range of predominantly DIY tools but
do not have a strong brand position.

Ryobi are owned by Techtronic Industries in Hong Kong (www.tti.com.hk).
Ryobi as a brand is exclusive to Tool Bank in the UK, I believe. In other
markets it is a very strong brand. TTI are very strong in Power Tools,
making products for B&Q and JCB in the UK, Home Depot and Sears Roebuck in
the USA, for example.

Exactly my point. TTI have virtually zero market presence themselves
and manufacture private label and OEM products for others.



Their sales of power tools were at
only around $200M which is small for what they are doing. This,
coupled with the financial data does not give a strong impression of
commitment to the power tools market. Their main business is
diecastings and printing machines.
You are looking at the wrong company as Ryobi of Japan only manufacture for
the home market now. TTI who make the 'international' power tools have a
turnover in Power Tools of about USD1,000M. Compare this with Black and
Decker with approx USD3,100M (covering a wider product range), and you can
see that they are almost in the same league. TTI are expanding their share
and B&D are losing theirs.

Which is I am sure why B&D is rapidly moving manufacture of low end
products to the far east.

It's meaningless to compare an OEM manufacturing house with a major
single product brand.



A lot of what they make goes in rebadged form on the U.S. market,
where as I mentioned they only sell their own bramd through Home
Depot. Home Depot has a service arrangement worse than anything
one has seen in the UK and plays the numbers game just like most UK
sheds do with their own brand tools.

Ryobi brand is not exclusive to Home Depot in US.

http://www.ryobitools.com/about/about.asp?sectionid=61

"We're proud to sell our tools exclusively through The Home Depot,
where the values are unbeatable, the staff is knowledgeable and
friendly - and you're just steps away from everything else you need to
enjoy your RTI tools to the fullest".



The point is: Ryobi are a Mickey Mouse outfit and are not poor quality.

They are not a Mickey Mouse outfit and you are correct hta they are not poor
quality

I wouldn't go as far as to describe them as a Mickey Mouse outfit, but
they are not, by their own positioning in the professional quality
market. Undoubtedly they are fit for purpose up to a point,.......

TTI also make the Ridgid brand which is Home Depot's professional range

Err no. It's Home Depot's range, but the quality is not
professional. I've examined some of their products quite carefully
and they are most certainly not,

as
well as semi pro own brand tools for UK retailers.


That says it all.......



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Sorry I never meant to start a flame war. Not so many years back, you could
only get the slightly more specialist power tools like angle grinders, jigsaws,
routers from the "advertised" names. These days you can get more exotic stuff
like biscuit cutters, planers, belt sanders that seem to be (mostly) fine for
the DIY market at a fraction of the price. It just struck me that the angle
drill is a: occasionally quite useful and b: not much more complex to make than
a standard hammer drill. So why isn't anyone selling a "cheepy"?

But thanks for all the response! I've always managed joists with a standard
mains drill and a spade bit (sometimes in an extension). Now I really can't
decide if I must have a mains angle drill for this, or whether I need a "big
name" battery drill, or whether I should wait for a Ferm!

S

On 04 Dec 2003 21:03:43 GMT, (OldScrawn) wrote:

Sorry I never meant to start a flame war.

It's OK, you didn't.

Not so many years back, you could
only get the slightly more specialist power tools like angle grinders, jigsaws,
routers from the "advertised" names.

One reason is because the major brand manufacturers invested in the
R&D to develop them and in some areas patented the ideas.

These days you can get more exotic stuff
like biscuit cutters, planers, belt sanders that seem to be (mostly) fine for
the DIY market at a fraction of the price.

It really depends on what you are looking for. Generally DIY grade
tools are intended for lowish usage rates and depending on the type of
tool, may not have the accuracy, ergonomics or performance of a higher
grade product. The motor controls in cordless tools are a good
example of this - the better products like Makita have much better
trigger control than the cheapies.

Also, when buying tools there is more to the equation than the initial
price tag. The important factor is really the cost over a period of
time. It may be interesting in some ways to have a low price
product with a three year warranty. However, if you value your time
and need to return it three times during that period, you will have
probably blown away any cost saving. Let's say you would bring in a
tradesperson to so a job for you. Daily rates are in the £120 - £150
area. By DIYing, you save this cost. If a product needs to be
returned then I reckon about 1/3 to 1/2 a day to do it - anything up
to £75. For many power tools this makes the difference between
something poor to average and something pretty good, so I tend to view
buying just on the price tag as a false economy.




It just struck me that the angle
drill is a: occasionally quite useful and b: not much more complex to make than
a standard hammer drill. So why isn't anyone selling a "cheepy"?

Because the volume isn't there. The whole premise of the cheap
unbranded tools sold through consumer channels is one of volume.
It allows for large factories to gear up for huge production runs and
allows retailers to give long warranties because they can play the
numbers game and sling faulty product into the skip. It's all
factored into the margin. Retailers have return volume allowances
with the suppliers and as long as returns stay within that nobody
cares.



But thanks for all the response! I've always managed joists with a standard
mains drill and a spade bit (sometimes in an extension). Now I really can't
decide if I must have a mains angle drill for this, or whether I need a "big
name" battery drill, or whether I should wait for a Ferm!

You can always cut down a spade bit if you need to get into a tighter
space with one, but there are also short augers on the market which
work more easily.

I've bought several Makita battery drills and all have performed
faultlessly.





S

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 04 Dec 2003 21:03:43 GMT, (OldScrawn) wrote:

Sorry I never meant to start a flame war.

It's OK, you didn't.

Not so many years back, you could
only get the slightly more specialist power tools like angle grinders,
jigsaws,
routers from the "advertised" names.

One reason is because the major brand manufacturers invested in the
R&D to develop them and in some areas patented the ideas.

These days you can get more exotic stuff
like biscuit cutters, planers, belt sanders that seem to be (mostly) fine
for
the DIY market at a fraction of the price.

It really depends on what you are looking for. Generally DIY grade
tools are intended for lowish usage rates and depending on the type of
tool, may not have the accuracy, ergonomics or performance of a higher
grade product. The motor controls in cordless tools are a good
example of this - the better products like Makita have much better
trigger control than the cheapies.

Also, when buying tools there is more to the equation than the initial
price tag. The important factor is really the cost over a period of
time. It may be interesting in some ways to have a low price
product with a three year warranty. However, if you value your time
and need to return it three times during that period, you will have
probably blown away any cost saving. Let's say you would bring in a
tradesperson to so a job for you. Daily rates are in the £120 - £150
area. By DIYing, you save this cost. If a product needs to be
returned then I reckon about 1/3 to 1/2 a day to do it - anything up
to £75. For many power tools this makes the difference between
something poor to average and something pretty good, so I tend to view
buying just on the price tag as a false economy.

Since when have DIYers costed their time? Many are time rich, cash poor.

It just struck me that the angle
drill is a: occasionally quite useful and b: not much more complex to
make than
a standard hammer drill. So why isn't anyone selling a "cheepy"?

Because the volume isn't there.

It soon will be. Every 6 months or so a new battery angle drill comes onto
the market, with Ryobi the latest with am excellent deal. the only point so
far is that you can't buy the angle drills separately. Maybe just an
initial launch promotion. At £114 it is worth getting just for the angle
drill alone and throwing away the 14.4 v drill/driver, when looking the
price of the competition. Kitchen fitters are now adopting angle
drill/drivers now, becoming a "must have" tool, like their sliding mitre
saws.

But thanks for all the response! I've always managed joists with a
standard
mains drill and a spade bit (sometimes in an extension). Now I really
can't
decide if I must have a mains angle drill for this, or whether I need a
"big
name" battery drill, or whether I should wait for a Ferm!

You can always cut down a spade bit if you need to get into a tighter
space with one, but there are also short augers on the market which
work more easily.

I've bought several Makita battery drills and all have performed
faultlessly.

The only fault with them is the price. Well for occasional DIY anyhow.



---
--

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On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:54:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Since when have DIYers costed their time? Many are time rich, cash poor.

I certainly do and I am sure that a lot of other people do as well.

The equation is between the cost of having the work done and doing it
yourself including the cost of materials and the lifetime cost of the
tools.



It just struck me that the angle
drill is a: occasionally quite useful and b: not much more complex to
make than
a standard hammer drill. So why isn't anyone selling a "cheepy"?

Because the volume isn't there.

It soon will be. Every 6 months or so a new battery angle drill comes onto
the market, with Ryobi the latest with am excellent deal. the only point so
far is that you can't buy the angle drills separately. Maybe just an
initial launch promotion. At £114 it is worth getting just for the angle
drill alone and throwing away the 14.4 v drill/driver, when looking the
price of the competition.

I've tried this one out, and I am sorry but it is nowhere near
Makita's quality and usability level.

Kitchen fitters are now adopting angle
drill/drivers now, becoming a "must have" tool, like their sliding mitre
saws.

Nothing new there.



But thanks for all the response! I've always managed joists with a
standard
mains drill and a spade bit (sometimes in an extension). Now I really
can't
decide if I must have a mains angle drill for this, or whether I need a
"big
name" battery drill, or whether I should wait for a Ferm!

You can always cut down a spade bit if you need to get into a tighter
space with one, but there are also short augers on the market which
work more easily.

I've bought several Makita battery drills and all have performed
faultlessly.

The only fault with them is the price. Well for occasional DIY anyhow.

As I say, one needs to look at the complete equation, not just the
initial price tag




---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:54:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Since when have DIYers costed their time? Many are time rich, cash poor.

I certainly do and I am sure that a lot of other people do as well.

The equation is between the cost of having the work done and doing it
yourself including the cost of materials and the lifetime cost of the
tools.



It just struck me that the angle
drill is a: occasionally quite useful and b: not much more complex to
make than
a standard hammer drill. So why isn't anyone selling a "cheepy"?

Because the volume isn't there.

It soon will be. Every 6 months or so a new battery angle drill comes
onto
the market, with Ryobi the latest with am excellent deal. the only point
so
far is that you can't buy the angle drills separately. Maybe just an
initial launch promotion. At £114 it is worth getting just for the angle
drill alone and throwing away the 14.4 v drill/driver, when looking the
price of the competition.

I've tried this one out,

It is only new on the market. Where? when?

and I am sorry but it is nowhere near
Makita's quality and usability level.

No one is saying Makita is poor quality. The point is, the tool for intened
use, which is DIY in tis case. Nevertheless the Ryobi is good quality,
works well and does what it is supposed to do. If you assess the price of
the 14.4 v drill/driver as about the same as the angle drill, then that is
£57 for the angle drill, when Makita's are going for £170. That is approx
THREE times the price.

Kitchen fitters are now adopting angle
drill/drivers now, becoming a "must have" tool, like their sliding mitre
saws.

Nothing new there.

But thanks for all the response! I've always managed joists with a
standard
mains drill and a spade bit (sometimes in an extension). Now I really
can't
decide if I must have a mains angle drill for this, or whether I need
a
"big
name" battery drill, or whether I should wait for a Ferm!

You can always cut down a spade bit if you need to get into a tighter
space with one, but there are also short augers on the market which
work more easily.

I've bought several Makita battery drills and all have performed
faultlessly.

The only fault with them is the price. Well for occasional DIY anyhow.

As I say, one needs to look at the complete equation, not just the
initial price tag

Exactly!

I am waiting for a mains cheapy to come along for the amont of use I would
give one. All they are is angle grinder geared down, and you can buy them
for £12.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 18/11/2003

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:26:08 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

It soon will be. Every 6 months or so a new battery angle drill comes
onto
the market, with Ryobi the latest with am excellent deal. the only point
so
far is that you can't buy the angle drills separately. Maybe just an
initial launch promotion. At £114 it is worth getting just for the angle
drill alone and throwing away the 14.4 v drill/driver, when looking the
price of the competition.

I've tried this one out,

It is only new on the market. Where? when?

One of the stands at the Axminster tool show last month had one. I
don't remember which.



and I am sorry but it is nowhere near
Makita's quality and usability level.

No one is saying Makita is poor quality. The point is, the tool for intened
use, which is DIY in tis case. Nevertheless the Ryobi is good quality,
works well and does what it is supposed to do.

You've tried one? The speed control is nowhere near as good as on
the Makita drills, and for a tool of this type is critical.


If you assess the price of
the 14.4 v drill/driver as about the same as the angle drill, then that is
£57 for the angle drill, when Makita's are going for £170. That is approx
THREE times the price.

This depends on how you want to count it. I already said that in my
view, just looking at the initial price tag only gives a small piece
of the overall story.



I am waiting for a mains cheapy to come along for the amont of use I would
give one. All they are is angle grinder geared down, and you can buy them
for £12.

That's fine. If it's your understanding of the way in which an angle
drill works and your use is minimal then a £12 product is probably
appropriate for your needs anyway.

Since it's coming up to Christmas, have a look at this

https://www.hamleys.com/web/product/...&CategoryID=4&

Should suit your needs and great value at only £29.95

If you promise to behave then I'll write to Santa for you.



---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:26:08 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

It soon will be. Every 6 months or so a new battery angle drill comes
onto
the market, with Ryobi the latest with am excellent deal. the only
point
so
far is that you can't buy the angle drills separately. Maybe just an
initial launch promotion. At £114 it is worth getting just for the
angle
drill alone and throwing away the 14.4 v drill/driver, when looking
the
price of the competition.

I've tried this one out,

It is only new on the market. Where? when?

One of the stands at the Axminster tool show last month had one. I
don't remember which.

and I am sorry but it is nowhere near
Makita's quality and usability level.

No one is saying Makita is poor quality. The point is, the tool for
intened
use, which is DIY in tis case. Nevertheless the Ryobi is good quality,
works well and does what it is supposed to do.

You've tried one?

If it is to the quality of their drill/drivers then it is good.

If you assess the price of
the 14.4 v drill/driver as about the same as the angle drill, then that
is
£57 for the angle drill, when Makita's are going for £170. That is
approx
THREE times the price.

This depends on how you want to count it.

From 1 and the 2 and onwards.

I already said that in my
view, just looking at the initial price tag
only gives a small piece
of the overall story.

The Ryobi is not a £12 cheapy.

I am waiting for a mains cheapy to come along for the amont of use I
would
give one. All they are is angle grinder geared down, and you can buy
them
for £12.

That's fine. If it's your understanding of the way in which an angle
drill works and your use is minimal then a £12 product is probably
appropriate for your needs anyway.

Since it's coming up to Christmas, have a look at this

https://www.hamleys.com/web/product/...&CategoryID=4&

Should suit your needs and great value at only £29.95

I think they are cheaoer at B&Q

If you promise to behave then I'll write to Santa for you.

You are considerate.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.542 / Virus Database: 336 - Release Date: 18/11/2003

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 23:26:53 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



use, which is DIY in tis case. Nevertheless the Ryobi is good quality,
works well and does what it is supposed to do.

You've tried one?

If it is to the quality of their drill/drivers then it is good.

So "no" then.


If you assess the price of
the 14.4 v drill/driver as about the same as the angle drill, then that
is
£57 for the angle drill, when Makita's are going for £170. That is
approx
THREE times the price.

This depends on how you want to count it.

From 1 and the 2 and onwards.

I already said that in my
view, just looking at the initial price tag
only gives a small piece
of the overall story.

The Ryobi is not a £12 cheapy.

I didn't say that it was nor that it was junk. It is suitable for
some applications and budgets, but is not at Makita's standard.


I am waiting for a mains cheapy to come along for the amont of use I
would
give one. All they are is angle grinder geared down, and you can buy
them
for £12.

That's fine. If it's your understanding of the way in which an angle
drill works and your use is minimal then a £12 product is probably
appropriate for your needs anyway.

Since it's coming up to Christmas, have a look at this

https://www.hamleys.com/web/product/...&CategoryID=4&

Should suit your needs and great value at only £29.95

I think they are cheaoer at B&Q

Probably.



If you promise to behave then I'll write to Santa for you.

You are considerate.

I'm all heart :-)


---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:10:00 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:54:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Since when have DIYers costed their time? Many are time rich, cash poor.

I certainly do and I am sure that a lot of other people do as well.

The equation is between the cost of having the work done and doing it
yourself including the cost of materials and the lifetime cost of the
tools.

snip

Personally I couldn't agree with this sentiment. I will often do the
job myself because I frequently can do it to a better standard, but
the primary reason for diy for me is the sheer trouble of finding
someone to do the job, at any price, never mind finding someon to do
it at a sensible price.

Having said that I do get pleasure in diy.



Paul Mc Cann

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 07:14:25 +0000, Paul Mc Cann
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:10:00 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:54:17 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Since when have DIYers costed their time? Many are time rich, cash poor.

I certainly do and I am sure that a lot of other people do as well.

The equation is between the cost of having the work done and doing it
yourself including the cost of materials and the lifetime cost of the
tools.

snip

Personally I couldn't agree with this sentiment. I will often do the
job myself because I frequently can do it to a better standard, but
the primary reason for diy for me is the sheer trouble of finding
someone to do the job, at any price, never mind finding someon to do
it at a sensible price.

Having said that I do get pleasure in diy.


I agree with your points as well, Paul, regarding quality of work,
getting people and enjoying doing the job.

I was trying to relate my comments to the economic ones in terms of
why I prefer to buy professional and branded tools for the most part.
I also find that the better job that I can almost always do is a
benefit as well, to me at least, but it's hard to quantify that,.
It's also perfectly legitimate to spend one's money or something that
one likes, of course........







Paul Mc Cann

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

I have seen this attachment for sale in tool shops for £12
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,132.html

I bought the above for £10 and this angle driver below for a £5 at the local
tool stall. Does the job well, and all for £15. Beats paying £170

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/data/index.php?ToolID=313405



---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 10:00:10 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:32:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

I have seen this attachment for sale in tool shops for £12
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,132.html

I bought the above for £10 and this angle driver below for a £5 at the local
tool stall. Does the job well, and all for £15. Beats paying £170

http://www.tool-net.co.uk/data/index.php?ToolID=313405


It may be suitable for a purpose. This is a bit like saying that a
bicycle beats a car. Without getting into the merits of exercise,
both get you from A to B and the bicycle is cheaper, but that's about
it...



---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , OldScrawn
writes
Sorry I never meant to start a flame war. Not so many years back, you could
only get the slightly more specialist power tools like angle grinders, jigsaws,
routers from the "advertised" names. These days you can get more exotic stuff
like biscuit cutters, planers, belt sanders that seem to be (mostly) fine for
the DIY market at a fraction of the price. It just struck me that the angle
drill is a: occasionally quite useful and b: not much more complex to make than
a standard hammer drill. So why isn't anyone selling a "cheepy"?

But thanks for all the response! I've always managed joists with a standard
mains drill and a spade bit (sometimes in an extension). Now I really can't
decide if I must have a mains angle drill for this, or whether I need a "big
name" battery drill, or whether I should wait for a Ferm!

S
AEG make a nifty mains drill where the motor is angled at about 110
degrees to the output shaft via a chunky gearbox. The handle unclips to
allow it to get into narrow spaces. Bit pricey though, about ukp 115 and
not even SDS.
--
Andrew

"Andrew" wrote in message
...

AEG make a nifty mains drill where the motor is angled at about 110
degrees to the output shaft via a chunky gearbox. The handle unclips to
allow it to get into narrow spaces. Bit pricey though, about ukp 115 and
not even SDS.

Here it is. Not cheap!
http://www.fulhamtimber.co.uk/tool17.html

http://www.toolkit-shop.co.uk/impact...ine/823057.htm
and
http://tinyurl.com/y3zj

£99 + VAT he
http://www.generalfixings.co.uk/specialoffers.htm



---
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