Rod Speed wrote:


"Dan S. MacAbre" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/09/16 13:59, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
I think one of the hardest things in history is to try to understand
what people thought of Hitler in the 30's. I'm sure he considered
himself to be something of a socialist, as least as far as native
Germans were concerned. Less so when it came to his plans for the
disabled. People didn't seem to be so keen to distance themselves from
his ideas then. But cleverer people than me seem still unable to
understand what happened - I don't think I really have much of a
chance,
try as I might

Most people regarded Hitler as a lot better alternative than Communism
or Bolshevism, which had destroyed Russia and its ruling class.

At that time Communism was seen as part of 'the Jewish conspiracy' to
foment dissent and wars and make profits out of it. Anti-Semitism was
pretty rife, not helped by the clannishness ghetto-isation and refusal
to integrate of the European Jewish communities.

It was only when he developed delusions of Empire, invading his
neighbours, that people got upset.

They were very happy to see him and Mussolini trounce the commies in
Spain and Italy.

It was a pair of Italian communists that drew up the EU manifesto of
course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventotene_Manifesto

Anyway, the point is simply this. More than a few people were more or
less anti semitic - suspicious and distrustful of Jews, and so that part
of Nazism wasn't seen as more than just a bit politically extreme. The
Anti- Bolshevik sentiment was widely applauded, as was the patriotism
and nationalism. Only when various political figures started getting
murdered, and other countries started getting invaded did people begin
to wonder, and then of course it was too late.

I don't think you can get close to understanding the whole thing unless
you spend time reading the causal literature of the time, and forming
your own opinions on the attitudes and ideas of the people then, rather
than taking the view of some historian - who perforce must needs
introduce a 'new perspective that informs' in order to make his career.

I can fully understand why people supported Hitler. And why people
support Corbyn.

And why Lefty****s are ****s.

I don't excuse it though.


I thank you and Fredxxx for your responses. I could talk about this
sort of stuff all day, but I don't think usenet is a great way to deal
with it.

You've clearly both studied more than me, yet I still maintain that
/for most people/, Hitler's success is something of a mystery. The
very mention of the name is too loaded for people to not believe that
he tricked his way into power. Yet it is clear that he did not. One
only has to watch Eva Braun's home movies at Berchtesgarten to see
that that these are people who do not believe that they are in any way
evil.

Neither did Eichmann or Himmler and they were anyway.

I think it's worth mentioning the paralysis induced by Germany's
system of proportional representation as a major factor.

Yes, that was certainly the reason why there was no majority govt
and why Hindenburg chose to appoint Hitler Chancellor.

There was one NSDAP founding member (whose name I can't remember)

Strasser.

Bingo! Thanks. I'll try not to forget the name again. An important
fellow, I think.

who, when asked what they stand for, simply said 'the opposite of what
there is today'.

And that is a pretty succinct statement of what the NSDAP was about.

I think many people feel that right now, especially in the US.

I'm not convinced that it all that many today.

The hyperinflation of 1923 has been mentioned, but this was got under
control when required

That is a separate matter to why some certainly did support Hitler.

But I think that as late as 1928, the NSDAP were only getting 4% of the
vote. Something much more significant happened in the next few years
(The Great Depression, I expect, and maybe other things). I'm not
arguing - you know your stuff - but if I don't ask, I don't find out :-)

(I think it was allowed to run away in order to obfuscate the value of
the currency at a time when they were paying reparations),

Yes.

and I'd be surprised if it was still a motivating political factor ten
years later.

It clearly was.

The Great Depression, OTOH, certainly was.

As for the anti-semitism, I think I read that even Jesse Owens was a
last-minute stand-in for a Jewish athlete whom the Americans chose not
to send for fear of upsetting Hitler. It's also odd that previously,
Germany was something of a haven for Europe's Jews.

It was indeed.

But I don't know. Before WW2, there seem to be no great surprises in
what happened. Afterwards, it seems hardly credible. Anyway, I'm
wittering now :-)

"Dan S. MacAbre" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"Dan S. MacAbre" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/09/16 13:59, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
I think one of the hardest things in history is to try to understand
what people thought of Hitler in the 30's. I'm sure he considered
himself to be something of a socialist, as least as far as native
Germans were concerned. Less so when it came to his plans for the
disabled. People didn't seem to be so keen to distance themselves
from
his ideas then. But cleverer people than me seem still unable to
understand what happened - I don't think I really have much of a
chance,
try as I might

Most people regarded Hitler as a lot better alternative than Communism
or Bolshevism, which had destroyed Russia and its ruling class.

At that time Communism was seen as part of 'the Jewish conspiracy' to
foment dissent and wars and make profits out of it. Anti-Semitism was
pretty rife, not helped by the clannishness ghetto-isation and refusal
to integrate of the European Jewish communities.

It was only when he developed delusions of Empire, invading his
neighbours, that people got upset.

They were very happy to see him and Mussolini trounce the commies in
Spain and Italy.

It was a pair of Italian communists that drew up the EU manifesto of
course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventotene_Manifesto

Anyway, the point is simply this. More than a few people were more or
less anti semitic - suspicious and distrustful of Jews, and so that
part
of Nazism wasn't seen as more than just a bit politically extreme. The
Anti- Bolshevik sentiment was widely applauded, as was the patriotism
and nationalism. Only when various political figures started getting
murdered, and other countries started getting invaded did people begin
to wonder, and then of course it was too late.

I don't think you can get close to understanding the whole thing unless
you spend time reading the causal literature of the time, and forming
your own opinions on the attitudes and ideas of the people then, rather
than taking the view of some historian - who perforce must needs
introduce a 'new perspective that informs' in order to make his
career.

I can fully understand why people supported Hitler. And why people
support Corbyn.

And why Lefty****s are ****s.

I don't excuse it though.


I thank you and Fredxxx for your responses. I could talk about this
sort of stuff all day, but I don't think usenet is a great way to deal
with it.

You've clearly both studied more than me, yet I still maintain that
/for most people/, Hitler's success is something of a mystery. The
very mention of the name is too loaded for people to not believe that
he tricked his way into power. Yet it is clear that he did not. One
only has to watch Eva Braun's home movies at Berchtesgarten to see
that that these are people who do not believe that they are in any way
evil.

Neither did Eichmann or Himmler and they were anyway.

I think it's worth mentioning the paralysis induced by Germany's
system of proportional representation as a major factor.

Yes, that was certainly the reason why there was no majority govt
and why Hindenburg chose to appoint Hitler Chancellor.

There was one NSDAP founding member (whose name I can't remember)

Strasser.

Bingo! Thanks. I'll try not to forget the name again. An important
fellow, I think.

who, when asked what they stand for, simply said 'the opposite of what
there is today'.

And that is a pretty succinct statement of what the NSDAP was about.

I think many people feel that right now, especially in the US.

I'm not convinced that it all that many today.

The hyperinflation of 1923 has been mentioned, but this was got under
control when required

That is a separate matter to why some certainly did support Hitler.

But I think that as late as 1928, the NSDAP were only getting 4% of the
vote. Something much more significant happened in the next few years (The
Great Depression, I expect,

Yep.

and maybe other things).

Yep, the fact that the others were clearly stuffing things up completely.

I'm not arguing - you know your stuff - but if I don't ask, I don't find
out :-)

(I think it was allowed to run away in order to obfuscate the value of
the currency at a time when they were paying reparations),

Yes.

and I'd be surprised if it was still a motivating political factor ten
years later.

It clearly was.

The Great Depression, OTOH, certainly was.

As for the anti-semitism, I think I read that even Jesse Owens was a
last-minute stand-in for a Jewish athlete whom the Americans chose not
to send for fear of upsetting Hitler. It's also odd that previously,
Germany was something of a haven for Europe's Jews.

It was indeed.

But I don't know. Before WW2, there seem to be no great surprises in
what happened. Afterwards, it seems hardly credible. Anyway, I'm
wittering now :-)

On 10-Sep-16 10:46 PM, BillD wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
....
Well, he wrote it all down in Mein Kampf, so plenty of people had no
excuse.

They did have the excuse that it was virtually unreadable. He did put
just about all his plans in it, but often in terms that are only
understandable with the benefit of hindsight.

He never said in Mein Kampf that he was going to occupy most of Europe or
kill all the Jews he could either.

He declared his belligerence towards France, his intent to unify the
German speaking peoples and gave his plans for Lebensraum, which
required the invasion of Russia.

He also declared his hatred of Jews and the following seems to be a
fairly good guide to what he had in mind for 'inferior' people:

'the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from
all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their
international poisoners are exterminated'

However, his comments about Jews and non-whites and his more belligerent
utterances were largely omitted from the Nazi Party approved English
translation of 1933.

--
--

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
news
On 10-Sep-16 10:46 PM, BillD wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
...
Well, he wrote it all down in Mein Kampf, so plenty of people had no
excuse.

They did have the excuse that it was virtually unreadable. He did put just
about all his plans in it,

He never said that he planned to militarily invade
all of europe that he could get away with invading,
or even that he would go to war with russia either.

And never mentioned that he would kill all the jews either.

In fact even when he was killing as many jews as he could,
he didnt even make it clear that he was actually doing that.

but often in terms that are only understandable with the benefit of
hindsight.

He never said in Mein Kampf that he was going to occupy most of Europe or
kill all the Jews he could either.

He declared his belligerence towards France, his intent to unify the
German speaking peoples

That is nothing even remotely like occupying most of europe.

and gave his plans for Lebensraum,

Yes.

which required the invasion of Russia.

Nope. There was plenty of room for that without invading russia.

He also declared his hatred of Jews

Yes, but even when he was killing as many of those as he
could, he didnt even make it clear that he was doing that.

Same with the killing of the intellectually disabled and cripples etc
either.

and the following seems to be a fairly good guide to what he had in mind
for 'inferior' people:

'the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all
the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international
poisoners are exterminated'

That last bit is just rhetoric.

However, his comments about Jews and non-whites and his more belligerent
utterances were largely omitted from the Nazi Party approved English
translation of 1933.

And even when he was killing as many as he could,
that was never made clear to the german people.

On 10/09/16 10:47, Tim Streater wrote:

re.
Refugee camps, immigrant camps, Calais for example,


[...] Why does that make them our responsibility?


the question you are struggling with is is a moral, spiritual,
philosophical and religious issue and not one I am qualified to help you
with.

Tim W

On 10/09/2016 19:17, harry wrote:

On 09/09/2016 07:16, harry wrote:
https://www.jihadwatch.o

LOL.
A website called jihadwatch ! not even worthy of a click-through!

Only if you're totally brainwashed would you not look.

No, the brainwashed are the ones that believe martial law (not that it
will be disclosed by the MS Media as being identified as such) is being
imposed in Germany, and other countries BECAUSE of false-flag
manufactured "threats" in the name of "Muslim extremest organisations"

The brainwashed ones are the ones that suck up MindControl Media of the
nations i.e. "National" news,papers etc etc, fearful that all Muslims
are terrorists and therefore all western ally invasions of Middle
Eastern territories are justified and the invaders are "fighting for our
freedom" rather than forcing compliance with central banking demands by
political overthrow and the destruction of innocent lives AKA collateral
damage.

The brainwashed ones STILL believe building 7 collapsed in free-fall
from "dust and debris" irrespective of the overwhelming evidence to the
contrary from exalted professionals in engineering, demolition,
architecture, physics etc.... and suck up the 9/11 bull**** every year
which serves to keep the brainwashed masses on-side, compliant and in
acceptance of the war machines power,profit and greed

The fact that you post links to a website called "Jihadwatch" would
indicate to me that you might be one such person. That's like someone
posting a link to BritainFirst website claiming sea levels aren't rising
but the country is sinking due to the weight of all the im/migrants,
refugees etc.

Just a thought.
YMMV