On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 21:27:02 +0100, Capitol wrote:

In her dreams! It has taken 43 years to get out. She'll be dead in
another 43 years!

She'll probably get the Jo Cox treatment judging by how the grass roots
CDU members feel about her now (let alone the AFD and NPD!)

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
On 26/06/2016 13:47, Capitol wrote:
TimW wrote:
The Telegraph has dire warnings of how the Brexit balls up may pan out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...n-like-greece/

Briefly: There is the potential across Europe for right wing and
nationalist parties to demand their own referendums. The EU must make
sure that Britain is out quickly and that it is ugly and painful for
the UK, as painful as they can possibly make it, to make it quite
clear to all the other member states that Exit is not an option to be
taken lightly.

So brace yourselves for hard times, social disorder, economic
collapse, political chaos, hunger, rioting, a broken UK. It's what you
voted for.


Yes, you leave on the EU's terms.

Not if Britain chooses not to do that.

If we don't have free trade we just might be able to avoid making a
payment as much or more than now and having to allow free movement of
people.

Or Britain chooses to trade under the WTO rules, just like all
of the US, India, China, Taiwan, Canada, Australia etc do now,
makes no payments to the EU at all, has no free movement
of EU citizens and is just as selective about what EU citizens
are allowed to move to Britain or visit Britain as it is has been
with non EU citizens for decades now.

HSBC and other banks will move some of their activity out of the UK

Yes.

which will reduce the amount of tax collected.

Not given that none of them pay much tax at all in Britain.

So it's increased tax and/or lower well fare benefits.

Or the billions currently sent to the EU are no longer
sent to the EU and can be used anywhere Britain chooses
to use that money instead, spending it on the NHS or
just reducing the deficit and so wastes a lot less on
interest on the national debt and things work better
than they do now for the country.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
So brace yourselves for hard times, social disorder, economic collapse,
political chaos, hunger, rioting, a broken UK. It's what you voted for.

Negotiation is a two way process - especially when you are negotiating
with a club that can't dangle withdrawing your membership as stick to
beat you with, and to whom you are a nett payer of fees rather than a
nett receiver.

The EU could withdraw your membership? New one on me.

Boris had just said he wants to continue with a free trade agreement with
the UK. He's not going to call an election as he knows damn well he get a
smaller majority than now - if at all. So he will carry on until forced
to. And hope he can recover things to the point where he has a chance.

We will end up with a deal like Norway - dressed up as having regained
control. But with zero say in the EU. And unfettered EU immigration -
dressed up as only allowing those who work in. And it will be a wonderful
result for England. They say.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Charlie wrote:
"TimW" wrote in message
...
The Telegraph has dire warnings of how the Brexit balls up may pan out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...n-like-greece/

It

Hi Wodney - odd one can sense it's you after the first word...

--
*You know you're a redneck if your home has wheels and your car doesn't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:09:55 +0100, Capitol wrote:

snip

Yes, you leave on the EU's terms. If we don't have free trade we just
might be able to avoid making a payment as much or more than now and
having to allow free movement of people. HSBC and other banks will
move some of their activity out of the UK which will reduce the amount
of tax collected. So it's increased tax and/or lower well fare benefits.

Not much of a negotiator are you?

'You leave on the EU's terms'.

Nope.

We (the leaving state) aren't in control of (or party to)
the terms the other states are going to offer us.

But are free to reject them and leave anyway.

Hey, it will be a big surprise just like all
the other consequences apparently. ;-(

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 26/06/16 13:38, TimW wrote:
The Telegraph has dire warnings of how the Brexit balls up may pan out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...n-like-greece/

Briefly: There is the potential across Europe for right wing and
nationalist parties to demand their own referendums. The EU must make
sure that Britain is out quickly and that it is ugly and painful for the
UK, as painful as they can possibly make it, to make it quite clear to
all the other member states that Exit is not an option to be taken
lightly.

So brace yourselves for hard times, social disorder, economic collapse,
political chaos, hunger, rioting, a broken UK. It's what you voted for.

No, we voted to leave the sort of EU that would do that to us.

The EU can't do anything like that to Britain.

And if we do get that done to us, who else is going to want to join tje
EU?

Those that believe that the EU will pour lots of
money into their country and allow their citizens to go
anywhere they like in the EU for a long as they like.

Or stay in it?

Ditto.

Once again Britain is first,

Yes.

and leading the way

But it remains to be seen how many others
will chose to leave even if the EU can't do
anything to make things bad for leavers.

and taking the pain

IMO there will be little pain at all. Sure, the EU
won't be pouring much money at all into any
country that chooses to leave, but that is about it.

to save Europe from itself.

Bet Britain leaving doesnt do that.

The implosion of the eurozone might do that tho.
Might not too, that might well just see the demise
of the euro and a return to national currencies with
the EU carrying on regardless.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
John Rumm wrote

So brace yourselves for hard times, social disorder, economic collapse,
political chaos, hunger, rioting, a broken UK. It's what you voted for.

Negotiation is a two way process - especially when you are
negotiating with a club that can't dangle withdrawing your
membership as stick to beat you with, and to whom you are
a nett payer of fees rather than a nett receiver.

The EU could withdraw your membership? New one on me.

He said the exact opposite, that the EU can't do that.

Boris had just said he wants to continue
with a free trade agreement with the UK.

Because that would be useful to have.

Doesn’t mean that he would be prepared to keep paying
the billions to the EU every year, or to have completely
free movement of EU citizens to Britain, or to allow the
EU to decide much policy in Britain tho if that is what the
EU demands that happens to get a free trade agreement.

And it remains to be seen if Boris gets any say on
what agreement is reached with the EU anyway.

He's not going to call an election as he knows damn
well he get a smaller majority than now - if at all.

Even sillier than you usually manage now that Labour
has actually been stupid enough to have Corbyn running
the only viable alternative and with Labour ripping itself
to shreds. The Torys could well get a much bigger majority
now, particularly if they make it very clear that Britain will
be leaving the EU very quickly given the referendum result.

So he will carry on until forced to. And hope he can
recover things to the point where he has a chance.

There is nothing to recover and in many ways it would
make more sense to have an early election while Labour
is so completely unelectable to govt and would rip itself
to shreds because an election is about to happen.

We will end up with a deal like Norway

Bet that doesn’t happen, not only because Boris isnt
going to be stupid enough to accept the complete
freedom of movement of EU citizens just after the
referendum has just made it very clear that the
majority don’t want that, but also because Britain
is in a much more powerful position to make an
obscene gesture in the general direction of the EU
and trade under the WTO rules if the EU trys to force
Britain to accept conditions that it doesn’t want.

- dressed up as having regained control.
But with zero say in the EU.

Its got **** all say in EU policy when in the EU.

And unfettered EU immigration

Taint gunna happen, you watch.

- dressed up as only allowing those who work in.
And it will be a wonderful result for England. They say.

You're completely off with the ****ing fairys, as always.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 15:23:01 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , T i m
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:09:55 +0100, Capitol wrote:

Yes, you leave on the EU's terms. If we don't have free trade we just
might be able to avoid making a payment as much or more than now and
having to allow free movement of people. HSBC and other banks will
move some of their activity out of the UK which will reduce the amount
of tax collected. So it's increased tax and/or lower well fare
benefits.

Not much of a negotiator are you?

'You leave on the EU's terms'.

We (the leaving state) aren't in control of (or party to) the terms
the other states are going to offer us. Hey, it will be a big surprise
just like all the other consequences apparently. ;-(

No, you leave on agreed terms.

Terms they offer us.

Just because someone offers you a set of
Ts & Cs doesn't mean you have to accept them.

Can you cite support for that please Tim? I can't see anything that
confirms it here for example: (but may have missed it).

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/...ng-article-50/

At the end of the 2 years, if there has been no agreement, the
country just leaves. That's what section 3 says very unambiguously.

On 26/06/16 22:31, Charlie wrote:



The EU has no capacity to do that. The most it can ever
do is refuse to agree to anything Britain wants and even
that can't be done quickly given the 2 year provision
in Article 50.

Indeed. the onus is all on the leaving country.

Britain could be out tomorrow, if Cameron simply repealed the 1973 Act
or whenever it was.

Of course there would be no deals at all, but that would concentrate a
few minds


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 27/06/16 01:29, Charlie wrote:
to save Europe from itself.

Bet Britain leaving doesnt do that.

The implosion of the eurozone might do that tho.
Might not too, that might well just see the demise
of the euro and a return to national currencies with
the EU carrying on regardless.

My point was that us leaving will likely cause the EU to implode.

WE have called their bluff. It remains to be seen how much of the EU is
in the end bluff.

Iceland is already calling for a North Atlantic federation of the UK,
Iceland Greenland Norway and Sweden and the Faeroes.....Scotland and
Ireland might consider that was a lot better than going to bed with
Romania...et al.

Italy and Holland are on the cusp, France may go as well.

The world is sitting there, popcorn in hand, to see which way the cookie
crumbles

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Charlie wrote:
"TimW" wrote in message
...
The Telegraph has dire warnings of how the Brexit balls up may pan out:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...n-like-greece/

It

Hi Wodney - odd one can sense it's you after the first word...

Yep, he's a right ****ing Charlie.

On 27/06/2016 01:21, Rod Speed wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:09:55 +0100, Capitol wrote:

snip

Yes, you leave on the EU's terms. If we don't have free trade we just
might be able to avoid making a payment as much or more than now and
having to allow free movement of people. HSBC and other banks will
move some of their activity out of the UK which will reduce the amount
of tax collected. So it's increased tax and/or lower well fare
benefits.

Not much of a negotiator are you?

'You leave on the EU's terms'.

Nope.

We (the leaving state) aren't in control of (or party to)
the terms the other states are going to offer us.

But are free to reject them and leave anyway.


But then we don't get free access to the EU markets. Boris J has since
said that we want the free access. The only card we hold is not to
invoke clause 50. The EU have said that they will not start negotiations
until we do. Stalemate?


--
Michael Chare

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 27/06/16 09:55, Michael Chare wrote:
On 27/06/2016 01:21, Rod Speed wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:09:55 +0100, Capitol wrote:

snip

Yes, you leave on the EU's terms. If we don't have free trade we just
might be able to avoid making a payment as much or more than now and
having to allow free movement of people. HSBC and other banks will
move some of their activity out of the UK which will reduce the amount
of tax collected. So it's increased tax and/or lower well fare
benefits.

Not much of a negotiator are you?

'You leave on the EU's terms'.

Nope.

We (the leaving state) aren't in control of (or party to)
the terms the other states are going to offer us.

But are free to reject them and leave anyway.


But then we don't get free access to the EU markets. Boris J has since
said that we want the free access. The only card we hold is not to
invoke clause 50. The EU have said that they will not start negotiations
until we do. Stalemate?


How stupid can you get. Of course a free trade deal makes things
simpler, but its really no big deal.

What the EU wants is £350m to give some back to us, so we can lick their
paws and feel grateful

Well that is not on offer, so stuff them anyway. I personally dont care
if we get a deal or not.

What the country wants and why they voted, is no more Brussels imposed
********, and no freedom of movement.

And if it costs 3% on EU imports, let it be so.




--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 27/06/16 01:29, Charlie wrote:
to save Europe from itself.

Bet Britain leaving doesnt do that.

The implosion of the eurozone might do that tho.
Might not too, that might well just see the demise
of the euro and a return to national currencies with
the EU carrying on regardless.

My point was that us leaving will likely cause the EU to implode.

Bet it doesnt.

WE have called their bluff.

Nope, just chose to leave.

It remains to be seen how much of the EU is in the end bluff.

Bet none of it is. The EU will just tell Britain that it
is free to leave, which Britain already knows, and
has no capacity to even punish Britain for leaving.

The most it can do is refuse to allow Britain to have
a free trade agreement with the EU and Britain is free
to trade with the EU under WTO rules, just like everyone
else outside the EU that matters does right now.

Iceland is already calling for a North Atlantic federation of the UK,
Iceland Greenland Norway and Sweden and the Faeroes.....

And even if they get that, it is unlikely to matter much to anyone else.

Scotland and Ireland might consider that was a lot better than going to
bed with Romania...et al.

I doubt it, because that group wouldnt have anything like
the capacity to pour money into Scotland and Ireland like
the EU does. And with Scotland particularly, if they leave
the UK, they will need someone to pour money in.

Italy and Holland are on the cusp,

I dont believe that with Italy. They need the
EU to bail them out if their banks implode.

France may go as well.

I dont buy that either given they were one of the founders.

The world is sitting there, popcorn in hand, to see which way the cookie
crumbles

Toilet paper in hand quite a few of them. Wrongly
IMO. Britain will IMO do fine outside the EU.

On 27/06/16 08:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Iceland is already calling for a North Atlantic federation of the UK,
Iceland Greenland Norway and Sweden and the Faeroes.....Scotland and
Ireland might consider that was a lot better than going to bed with
Romania...et al.


There's also talk of joining the North American Free Trade Association
(NAFTA: Canada, USA and Mexico). It could be renamed North Atlantic FTA.
It is just that, a free trade area; no political stuff.

The biggest sticking points in its formation was the low wage economy of
Mexico, ecological considerations and respect for intellectual rights.
None of these would be of concern if the UK joined.

Another Dave

--
Change nospam to gmx

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
On 27/06/2016 01:21, Rod Speed wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 14:09:55 +0100, Capitol wrote:

snip

Yes, you leave on the EU's terms. If we don't have free trade we just
might be able to avoid making a payment as much or more than now and
having to allow free movement of people. HSBC and other banks will
move some of their activity out of the UK which will reduce the amount
of tax collected. So it's increased tax and/or lower well fare
benefits.

Not much of a negotiator are you?

'You leave on the EU's terms'.

Nope.

We (the leaving state) aren't in control of (or party to)
the terms the other states are going to offer us.

But are free to reject them and leave anyway.


But then we don't get free access to the EU markets.

Yes, but have the same access to EU markets as all of
the USA, China, India, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand,
Canada and almost everyone else.

Boris J has since said that we want the free access.

Yes, it would be useful, but he has also said that Britain won't
agree to the free movement of EU citizens to get that.

The only card we hold is not to invoke clause 50.

The other card is that Britain is free to leave the EU any time it likes.

The EU have said that they will not start negotiations until we do.
Stalemate?

No, Britain is always free to leave any time it likes.

On 27/06/16 10:39, Charlie wrote:
Sod off wodney


--
€œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!€�

Mary Wollstonecraft