In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only way to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top of the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,
personal debt of almost £2 trillion and an ongoing budget deficit of
over £80bn. Some success story.
--
bert

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only way to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top of the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.

In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only way to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top of the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.
So the state of our economy has nothing to do with the EU? Therefore
leaving the EU will have no effect on our economy.
--
bert

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic jam
in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only way
to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before about
11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top of
the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.

So the state of our economy has nothing to do with the EU?

Didn't say that. I JUST rubbed your nose in the FACT that
stuff you waved around has nothing to do with the EU.

Therefore leaving the EU will have no effect on our economy.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Clearly leaving the EU would have a massive effect
on the agricultural sector because approximately
half of their total income is CAP subsidies.

In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic
jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only
way to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before
about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top
of the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.

So the state of our economy has nothing to do with the EU?

Didn't say that. I JUST rubbed your nose in the FACT that
stuff you waved around has nothing to do with the EU.

Therefore leaving the EU will have no effect on our economy.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Clearly leaving the EU would have a massive effect
on the agricultural sector because approximately
half of their total income is CAP subsidies.
And the CAP subsidies come from????
--
bert

On 22/06/16 22:23, bert wrote:
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic
jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only
way to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before
about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost
deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No
wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top
of the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.

So the state of our economy has nothing to do with the EU?

Didn't say that. I JUST rubbed your nose in the FACT that
stuff you waved around has nothing to do with the EU.

Therefore leaving the EU will have no effect on our economy.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Clearly leaving the EU would have a massive effect
on the agricultural sector because approximately
half of their total income is CAP subsidies.
And the CAP subsidies come from????

British taxpayers

Just pay em direct with the money saved


--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic
jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only way
to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before
about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost deserted
M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No
wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top of
the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.

So the state of our economy has nothing to do with the EU?

Didn't say that. I JUST rubbed your nose in the FACT that
stuff you waved around has nothing to do with the EU.

Therefore leaving the EU will have no effect on our economy.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Clearly leaving the EU would have a massive effect
on the agricultural sector because approximately
half of their total income is CAP subsidies.
And the CAP subsidies come from????

Irrelevant to the fact that there would be some effect on the economy.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/06/16 22:23, bert wrote:
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has
increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic
jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only
way to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before
about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost
deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No
wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top
of the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living
since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.

So the state of our economy has nothing to do with the EU?

Didn't say that. I JUST rubbed your nose in the FACT that
stuff you waved around has nothing to do with the EU.

Therefore leaving the EU will have no effect on our economy.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Clearly leaving the EU would have a massive effect
on the agricultural sector because approximately
half of their total income is CAP subsidies.
And the CAP subsidies come from????

British taxpayers

Just pay em direct with the money saved

But they wouldnt have all those EU citizens
happy to do the worst of the ag work.

It would make a lot more sense to pull the plug
on ag subsidies, accept the fact that the sort of
small scale agriculture that the CAP supports
is way past its useby date now and let those
who still want what it produces pay the real
cost of producing what they want to consume
that can only be produced that way.

You claim to be a libertarian. Why does it make
any sense at all to be having anything like the
CAP system, albeit in just the one country ?

On 22/06/2016 23:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Just pay em direct with the money saved



Don't pay them at all, use the cash to pay the debt.

The prices they get will go up as food imports cost more due to the drop
in the pound you want to increase exports.

In message om,
lid writes
On 22/06/2016 23:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Just pay em direct with the money saved



Don't pay them at all, use the cash to pay the debt.

The prices they get will go up as food imports cost more due to the
drop in the pound you want to increase exports.

Farmers in this country have been supported since WW2. The EU CAP just
does it a different way for different reasons.

Payments are used as a coarse management tool to encourage/discourage
commodity production. In the early days, it may have avoided discontent
among small producers particularly in France. Initially the milk/wine
lakes and cereal mountains were an important issue but now long gone
away.

--
Tim Lamb

In article , jjjuu78
writes


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/06/16 22:23, bert wrote:
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , jjjuu78
writes


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Since I started driving the number of cars on the road has
increased
from 10 nmillion to 33 million.

In the early 60's I remember spending hours in a crawling traffic
jam in
Newport road Cardiff. Then we has a mass motorway and road building
spree from mid 60's to about mid 80's and the problem was 'solved'.

Now it is getting so bad again in Southern England that the only
way to
get anywhere is leave at 5 AM and do most of the driving before
about 11
AM. The only pleasant part of motorway left is the almost
deserted M48
over the old Severn Bridge and for about 6 miles on the Wales side
until it rejoins the M4 and hits the new Cardiff 'bypass' (M4).

Another 20 million people will mean another 10 million cars. No
wonder
there are no plans to build an extra double deck motorway on top
of the
existing M25.

And it's not occurred to you that the rising standard of living
since
joining the EU has led to more being able to afford cars?

After 40 years in the EU we have national debt of over £1.5 trillion,

Nothing to do with the EU.

personal debt of almost £2 trillion

Nothing to do with the EU.

and an ongoing budget deficit of over £80bn.

Nothing to do with the EU.

Some success story.

Have fun listing any other european country that has done
better and those like Germany which have are in the EU too.

So the state of our economy has nothing to do with the EU?

Didn't say that. I JUST rubbed your nose in the FACT that
stuff you waved around has nothing to do with the EU.

Therefore leaving the EU will have no effect on our economy.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

Clearly leaving the EU would have a massive effect
on the agricultural sector because approximately
half of their total income is CAP subsidies.
And the CAP subsidies come from????

British taxpayers

Just pay em direct with the money saved

But they wouldnt have all those EU citizens
happy to do the worst of the ag work.

It would make a lot more sense to pull the plug
on ag subsidies, accept the fact that the sort of
small scale agriculture that the CAP supports
is way past its useby date now and let those
who still want what it produces pay the real
cost of producing what they want to consume
that can only be produced that way.

It would indeed and that is the sort of reform Cameron should have been
seeking. But no chance of getting it within the EU. Blair surrendered
part of our rebate on the promise that CAP would be reformed.
You claim to be a libertarian. Why does it make
any sense at all to be having anything like the
CAP system, albeit in just the one country ?

--
bert