In article ,
Mark Allread wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:26:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



But looking at the likes of Farage, Gove, IDS, Boris and Rees-Mogg is
enough to send anyone with half a brain cell into the arms of the
remainers.

If the vote is to leave I cannot see BJ lasting long having expressed
his views on immigration which appear to be very different from those of
most in favour of an exit. Gove has indicated similar views but perhaps
not quite as strongly.

IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc. Yet shortly afterwards when not in office
attempts to defend their rights.

Basically, they will say anything they hope will gain them some advantage.

--
*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Mark Allread wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:26:40 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



But looking at the likes of Farage, Gove, IDS, Boris and Rees-Mogg is
enough to send anyone with half a brain cell into the arms of the
remainers.

If the vote is to leave I cannot see BJ lasting long having expressed
his views on immigration which appear to be very different from those of
most in favour of an exit. Gove has indicated similar views but perhaps
not quite as strongly.

IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc.
Nonsense. He recognised the damage done by Labour in throwing around
disability benefits like confetti and reducing the people they were
supposed to help to a miserable life of benefits dependency. Unlike
lefties he actually went to the Glasgow sink estates and talked to the
people who lived there. He resigned over further cuts to the Welfare
budget.
Yet shortly afterwards when not in office
attempts to defend their rights.

Basically, they will say anything they hope will gain them some advantage.


--
bert

"bert" wrote in message news

IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc.

Nonsense. He recognised the damage done by Labour in throwing around disability
benefits like confetti and reducing the people they were supposed to help to a
miserable life of benefits dependency. Unlike lefties he actually went to the Glasgow
sink estates and talked to the people who lived there.

So how many meaningful jobs did IDS actually supply for these people
so as to help them escape from this miserable life ?

And by "meaningful jobs" I don't mean the prospect of another
40 years of 20 hrs weeks in Poundland om minimum wage topped
up by Family Income Support.

So aside from the evangelical waffle about leading these poor
unfortunates out of the wilderness ,just how many meaningful
jobs which give people with a sense of dignity and achievement
in their work, he actually provide ?

As you seem to know all about this perhaps you can provide
the answer.

Ever since the Poor Law and before its been convenient to blame
the poor and unemployed for their situation. Basically if
somebody is either poor or unemployed, it's their own fault
and nobody elses's.

Basically if someone can't get a meaningful job then that will
be because their CV isn't up to date, or they need to be taught
interview skills. This to include people with genuine learning
difficulties who can't even write their own name. It's their
own fault and nobody else's. But just so long as they attend
sufficient courses, all run by training companies run by somebody
or other's mate/contributor to Party Funds effectively bleeding
the taxpayer for far more than claimants themselves, we can all
pretend they'll all get jobs at the end of it.

Basically its the same old story except at one stage at least
IDS actually gave the impression he was truly upset about these
people's plight. As if they didn't already know it themselves.
And that by administering a bit of "tough love" and a lot of
prayer presumably, thousands of meaningful jobs would
appear out of nowhere, the truly disabled could throw away
their crutches and wheelchairs, and the IQ of those with
learning difficulties would go up 10 points at a stroke.

At that stage the guy was truly out with the fairies, Keith
Joseph style.
But all of a sudden the reason a lot of thse people were unemployed
wasn't their own fault at all. As everyone had been saying. It was
all the fault of immigrants. So rather than tough love, sanctioning
people and sending them all on courses, all that was needed was to
leave the EU.


He resigned over further cuts to the Welfare budget.

He resigned because his pet scheme of Universal Credit was proving
unworkable, as many people including his own Department had been
saying all along. He jumped ship before he was pushed.

Unfortunately his messainaic schemes allowing the disabled and
unemployed to all suddenly all find work, somehow didn't stretch
to the systems design and engineering, adminstrative skills
and computer skills on the part of claimant if they weren't to
be condemned to incessant rounds form filling - which his
Universal Credit propsals would actually entail. Totally
unrealistic IOW.

That's why he resigned.


michael adams

....

In article , michael
adams writes

"bert" wrote in message
news

IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc.

Nonsense. He recognised the damage done by Labour in throwing around
disability
benefits like confetti and reducing the people they were supposed to
help to a
miserable life of benefits dependency. Unlike lefties he actually
went to the Glasgow
sink estates and talked to the people who lived there.

So how many meaningful jobs did IDS actually supply for these people
so as to help them escape from this miserable life ?

And by "meaningful jobs" I don't mean the prospect of another
40 years of 20 hrs weeks in Poundland om minimum wage topped
up by Family Income Support.

So aside from the evangelical waffle about leading these poor
unfortunates out of the wilderness ,just how many meaningful
jobs which give people with a sense of dignity and achievement
in their work, he actually provide ?

As you seem to know all about this perhaps you can provide
the answer.

Ever since the Poor Law and before its been convenient to blame
the poor and unemployed for their situation. Basically if
somebody is either poor or unemployed, it's their own fault
and nobody elses's.

Basically if someone can't get a meaningful job then that will
be because their CV isn't up to date, or they need to be taught
interview skills. This to include people with genuine learning
difficulties who can't even write their own name. It's their
own fault and nobody else's. But just so long as they attend
sufficient courses, all run by training companies run by somebody
or other's mate/contributor to Party Funds effectively bleeding
the taxpayer for far more than claimants themselves, we can all
pretend they'll all get jobs at the end of it.

Basically its the same old story except at one stage at least
IDS actually gave the impression he was truly upset about these
people's plight. As if they didn't already know it themselves.
And that by administering a bit of "tough love" and a lot of
prayer presumably, thousands of meaningful jobs would
appear out of nowhere, the truly disabled could throw away
their crutches and wheelchairs, and the IQ of those with
learning difficulties would go up 10 points at a stroke.

At that stage the guy was truly out with the fairies, Keith
Joseph style.
But all of a sudden the reason a lot of thse people were unemployed
wasn't their own fault at all. As everyone had been saying. It was
all the fault of immigrants. So rather than tough love, sanctioning
people and sending them all on courses, all that was needed was to
leave the EU.


He resigned over further cuts to the Welfare budget.

He resigned because his pet scheme of Universal Credit was proving
unworkable, as many people including his own Department had been
saying all along. He jumped ship before he was pushed.

Unfortunately his messainaic schemes allowing the disabled and
unemployed to all suddenly all find work, somehow didn't stretch
to the systems design and engineering, adminstrative skills
and computer skills on the part of claimant if they weren't to
be condemned to incessant rounds form filling - which his
Universal Credit propsals would actually entail. Totally
unrealistic IOW.

That's why he resigned.


michael adams

...




So what's your solution?
Typical Guardian reader. All whinge and problem stating, no answers.
--
bert

On 22/06/16 10:59, bert wrote:

So what's your solution?
Typical Guardian reader. All whinge and problem stating, no answers.

"Two faced double dealing virtue signalling Lefty**** cat-beller"

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 22/06/16 10:59, bert wrote:

So what's your solution?
Typical Guardian reader. All whinge and problem stating, no answers.

"Two faced double dealing virtue signalling Lefty**** cat-beller"

I have concerns regarding the resumption of legitimate d-i-y discussion
when the losing side wakes up on Friday:-)


--
Tim Lamb

michael adams wrote:
wrote in message news
IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc.


Nonsense. He recognised the damage done by Labour in throwing around disability
benefits like confetti and reducing the people they were supposed to help to a
miserable life of benefits dependency. Unlike lefties he actually went to the Glasgow
sink estates and talked to the people who lived there.

So how many meaningful jobs did IDS actually supply for these people
so as to help them escape from this miserable life ?

And by "meaningful jobs" I don't mean the prospect of another
40 years of 20 hrs weeks in Poundland om minimum wage topped
up by Family Income Support.

So aside from the evangelical waffle about leading these poor
unfortunates out of the wilderness ,just how many meaningful
jobs which give people with a sense of dignity and achievement
in their work, he actually provide ?

As you seem to know all about this perhaps you can provide
the answer.

Ever since the Poor Law and before its been convenient to blame
the poor and unemployed for their situation. Basically if
somebody is either poor or unemployed, it's their own fault
and nobody elses's.

Basically if someone can't get a meaningful job then that will
be because their CV isn't up to date, or they need to be taught
interview skills. This to include people with genuine learning
difficulties who can't even write their own name. It's their
own fault and nobody else's. But just so long as they attend
sufficient courses, all run by training companies run by somebody
or other's mate/contributor to Party Funds effectively bleeding
the taxpayer for far more than claimants themselves, we can all
pretend they'll all get jobs at the end of it.

Basically its the same old story except at one stage at least
IDS actually gave the impression he was truly upset about these
people's plight. As if they didn't already know it themselves.
And that by administering a bit of "tough love" and a lot of
prayer presumably, thousands of meaningful jobs would
appear out of nowhere, the truly disabled could throw away
their crutches and wheelchairs, and the IQ of those with
learning difficulties would go up 10 points at a stroke.

At that stage the guy was truly out with the fairies, Keith
Joseph style.
But all of a sudden the reason a lot of thse people were unemployed
wasn't their own fault at all. As everyone had been saying. It was
all the fault of immigrants. So rather than tough love, sanctioning
people and sending them all on courses, all that was needed was to
leave the EU.



He resigned over further cuts to the Welfare budget.

He resigned because his pet scheme of Universal Credit was proving
unworkable, as many people including his own Department had been
saying all along. He jumped ship before he was pushed.

Unfortunately his messainaic schemes allowing the disabled and
unemployed to all suddenly all find work, somehow didn't stretch
to the systems design and engineering, adminstrative skills
and computer skills on the part of claimant if they weren't to
be condemned to incessant rounds form filling - which his
Universal Credit propsals would actually entail. Totally
unrealistic IOW.

That's why he resigned.


michael adams

...





Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the
individual worker? Traing, yes, jobs no. If the immigrants can do it why
can't the Scots?

On 22/06/16 13:08, Capitol wrote:
If the immigrants can do it why can't the Scots?

Ah the $64,000 burning question of the Age!


--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

"bert" wrote in message ...
In article , michael adams
writes

"bert" wrote in message news

IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc.

Nonsense. He recognised the damage done by Labour in throwing around disability
benefits like confetti and reducing the people they were supposed to help to a
miserable life of benefits dependency. Unlike lefties he actually went to the Glasgow
sink estates and talked to the people who lived there.

So how many meaningful jobs did IDS actually supply for these people
so as to help them escape from this miserable life ?

And by "meaningful jobs" I don't mean the prospect of another
40 years of 20 hrs weeks in Poundland om minimum wage topped
up by Family Income Support.

So aside from the evangelical waffle about leading these poor
unfortunates out of the wilderness ,just how many meaningful
jobs which give people with a sense of dignity and achievement
in their work, he actually provide ?

As you seem to know all about this perhaps you can provide
the answer.

Ever since the Poor Law and before its been convenient to blame
the poor and unemployed for their situation. Basically if
somebody is either poor or unemployed, it's their own fault
and nobody elses's.

Basically if someone can't get a meaningful job then that will
be because their CV isn't up to date, or they need to be taught
interview skills. This to include people with genuine learning
difficulties who can't even write their own name. It's their
own fault and nobody else's. But just so long as they attend
sufficient courses, all run by training companies run by somebody
or other's mate/contributor to Party Funds effectively bleeding
the taxpayer for far more than claimants themselves, we can all
pretend they'll all get jobs at the end of it.

Basically its the same old story except at one stage at least
IDS actually gave the impression he was truly upset about these
people's plight. As if they didn't already know it themselves.
And that by administering a bit of "tough love" and a lot of
prayer presumably, thousands of meaningful jobs would
appear out of nowhere, the truly disabled could throw away
their crutches and wheelchairs, and the IQ of those with
learning difficulties would go up 10 points at a stroke.

At that stage the guy was truly out with the fairies, Keith
Joseph style.
But all of a sudden the reason a lot of thse people were unemployed
wasn't their own fault at all. As everyone had been saying. It was
all the fault of immigrants. So rather than tough love, sanctioning
people and sending them all on courses, all that was needed was to
leave the EU.


He resigned over further cuts to the Welfare budget.

He resigned because his pet scheme of Universal Credit was proving
unworkable, as many people including his own Department had been
saying all along. He jumped ship before he was pushed.

Unfortunately his messainaic schemes allowing the disabled and
unemployed to all suddenly all find work, somehow didn't stretch
to the systems design and engineering, adminstrative skills
and computer skills on the part of claimant if they weren't to
be condemned to incessant rounds form filling - which his
Universal Credit propsals would actually entail. Totally
unrealistic IOW.

That's why he resigned.


michael adams

...




So what's your solution?

Not lying to people for a start like your hero IDS. By claiming their
situation is all their own fault, and that if they only do as he says
they'll all have full time jobs at the end of it, paying more than
the minimum wage.

And then not completely changing my tune, like your hero IDS by
pretending I never lied before, but telling even more lies by now
saying it was all the fault of immigrants all along.

Typical Guardian reader.

Typical Tory apologist. So what's in it for you? You're obviously not
stinking rich or you wouldn't be wasting your time on here, so what
is it ?

Do they let you polish their cars, in the Conservative Club Car
Park, of a Sunday ?

Tip well, do they ?



michael adams

....

In article , michael
adams writes

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article ,
michael adams
writes

"bert" wrote in message
news
IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc.

Nonsense. He recognised the damage done by Labour in throwing
around disability
benefits like confetti and reducing the people they were supposed
to help to a
miserable life of benefits dependency. Unlike lefties he actually
went to the Glasgow
sink estates and talked to the people who lived there.

So how many meaningful jobs did IDS actually supply for these people
so as to help them escape from this miserable life ?

And by "meaningful jobs" I don't mean the prospect of another
40 years of 20 hrs weeks in Poundland om minimum wage topped
up by Family Income Support.

So aside from the evangelical waffle about leading these poor
unfortunates out of the wilderness ,just how many meaningful
jobs which give people with a sense of dignity and achievement
in their work, he actually provide ?

As you seem to know all about this perhaps you can provide
the answer.

Ever since the Poor Law and before its been convenient to blame
the poor and unemployed for their situation. Basically if
somebody is either poor or unemployed, it's their own fault
and nobody elses's.

Basically if someone can't get a meaningful job then that will
be because their CV isn't up to date, or they need to be taught
interview skills. This to include people with genuine learning
difficulties who can't even write their own name. It's their
own fault and nobody else's. But just so long as they attend
sufficient courses, all run by training companies run by somebody
or other's mate/contributor to Party Funds effectively bleeding
the taxpayer for far more than claimants themselves, we can all
pretend they'll all get jobs at the end of it.

Basically its the same old story except at one stage at least
IDS actually gave the impression he was truly upset about these
people's plight. As if they didn't already know it themselves.
And that by administering a bit of "tough love" and a lot of
prayer presumably, thousands of meaningful jobs would
appear out of nowhere, the truly disabled could throw away
their crutches and wheelchairs, and the IQ of those with
learning difficulties would go up 10 points at a stroke.

At that stage the guy was truly out with the fairies, Keith
Joseph style.
But all of a sudden the reason a lot of thse people were unemployed
wasn't their own fault at all. As everyone had been saying. It was
all the fault of immigrants. So rather than tough love, sanctioning
people and sending them all on courses, all that was needed was to
leave the EU.


He resigned over further cuts to the Welfare budget.

He resigned because his pet scheme of Universal Credit was proving
unworkable, as many people including his own Department had been
saying all along. He jumped ship before he was pushed.

Unfortunately his messainaic schemes allowing the disabled and
unemployed to all suddenly all find work, somehow didn't stretch
to the systems design and engineering, adminstrative skills
and computer skills on the part of claimant if they weren't to
be condemned to incessant rounds form filling - which his
Universal Credit propsals would actually entail. Totally
unrealistic IOW.

That's why he resigned.


michael adams

...




So what's your solution?

Not lying to people for a start like your hero IDS. By claiming their
situation is all their own fault, and that if they only do as he says
they'll all have full time jobs at the end of it, paying more than
the minimum wage.

And then not completely changing my tune, like your hero IDS by
pretending I never lied before, but telling even more lies by now
saying it was all the fault of immigrants all along.

Typical Guardian reader.

Typical Tory apologist. So what's in it for you? You're obviously not
stinking rich or you wouldn't be wasting your time on here, so what
is it ?

Do they let you polish their cars, in the Conservative Club Car
Park, of a Sunday ?

Tip well, do they ?



michael adams

...


The question was What is your solution?
You obviously don't have one.
--
bert

In article , Capitol
writes
michael adams wrote:
wrote in message
news
IDS when he was in office imposed some of the most vicious cuts
we've seen
on disabled benefits, etc.


Nonsense. He recognised the damage done by Labour in throwing around
disability
benefits like confetti and reducing the people they were supposed to
help to a
miserable life of benefits dependency. Unlike lefties he actually
went to the Glasgow
sink estates and talked to the people who lived there.

So how many meaningful jobs did IDS actually supply for these people
so as to help them escape from this miserable life ?

And by "meaningful jobs" I don't mean the prospect of another
40 years of 20 hrs weeks in Poundland om minimum wage topped
up by Family Income Support.

So aside from the evangelical waffle about leading these poor
unfortunates out of the wilderness ,just how many meaningful
jobs which give people with a sense of dignity and achievement
in their work, he actually provide ?

As you seem to know all about this perhaps you can provide
the answer.

Ever since the Poor Law and before its been convenient to blame
the poor and unemployed for their situation. Basically if
somebody is either poor or unemployed, it's their own fault
and nobody elses's.

Basically if someone can't get a meaningful job then that will
be because their CV isn't up to date, or they need to be taught
interview skills. This to include people with genuine learning
difficulties who can't even write their own name. It's their
own fault and nobody else's. But just so long as they attend
sufficient courses, all run by training companies run by somebody
or other's mate/contributor to Party Funds effectively bleeding
the taxpayer for far more than claimants themselves, we can all
pretend they'll all get jobs at the end of it.

Basically its the same old story except at one stage at least
IDS actually gave the impression he was truly upset about these
people's plight. As if they didn't already know it themselves.
And that by administering a bit of "tough love" and a lot of
prayer presumably, thousands of meaningful jobs would
appear out of nowhere, the truly disabled could throw away
their crutches and wheelchairs, and the IQ of those with
learning difficulties would go up 10 points at a stroke.

At that stage the guy was truly out with the fairies, Keith
Joseph style.
But all of a sudden the reason a lot of thse people were unemployed
wasn't their own fault at all. As everyone had been saying. It was
all the fault of immigrants. So rather than tough love, sanctioning
people and sending them all on courses, all that was needed was to
leave the EU.



He resigned over further cuts to the Welfare budget.

He resigned because his pet scheme of Universal Credit was proving
unworkable, as many people including his own Department had been
saying all along. He jumped ship before he was pushed.

Unfortunately his messainaic schemes allowing the disabled and
unemployed to all suddenly all find work, somehow didn't stretch
to the systems design and engineering, adminstrative skills
and computer skills on the part of claimant if they weren't to
be condemned to incessant rounds form filling - which his
Universal Credit propsals would actually entail. Totally
unrealistic IOW.

That's why he resigned.


michael adams

...





Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the
individual worker? Traing, yes, jobs no. If the immigrants can do it
why can't the Scots?
Because lefties believe the world owes us a living and every one is
entitled to a lifestyle choice of working and paying their way or living
off the backs of the rest of us.
--
bert

"bert" wrote in message ...

Because lefties believe the world owes us

"Us ?"

Who exactly is this "us" who you're referring to ?

People whose forbears fought and possibly died for this
country have some claim to be treated with dignity and
either provided with a way of supporting their families
by the Government or told the truth that the Governement
are unable to provide this. Not treated with contempt.

People can maybe draw there own conclusions as to why
such a consideration has apparently never even occurred
to you.

You didn't have a history of bad eyesight, as did Margaret
Thatcher's father Alfred Roberts, in your own family as well,
by any chance ?


michael adams

....

In article ,
michael adams wrote:
Because lefties believe the world owes us

"Us ?"

Who exactly is this "us" who you're referring to ?

It's the standard way of admitting you're on shaky ground.

'I think I'm speaking for all of us' when you don't know who 'us' are.

--
*Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Capitol" wrote in message

Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the individual worker?

All you're doing there is showing your lack of understanding of
the problem.

Someone posted on here the other day, about how the white working
class are now despised. Ignored might be a better word

For 200 years the economy of this country depended on millions
of workers doing unpleasant jobs, with no aspiration at all to
better their condition. Otherwise they wouldn't have carried
on as they did. Some of the really clever were able to get
out, were able to pass exams, got themselves careers and promotion
ladders and joined the middle class. The others realised that
any attempt to better themselves financially via Unions or not,
would simply lead to lock-outs and the threat of starvation. It
simply didn't do to have ambitions above your status.

That is the essence of the working class culture which
was bred into the majority of the population in the UK
for 200 years.

Only the truly arrogant or the monumentally stupid automatically
assume that everybody else must be exactly like themselves*.
In attitudes, culture whatever. Margaret Thatcher, desperate
no doubt to escape her own bourgeois roots somehow seemed to
imagine that once she'd shut down mines or steel works, all
the formerly mostly acquiescent miners and steel workers
would suddenly all either adopt career paths or turn into
entrepreneurs. The privately educated Blair was no better.
People whose aspirations had been bred out of them for the
past 200 years - more actually because most of them will
have been descended from cap doffing farm workers.

Now had someone arranged for all their kids to go to
the equivalents of Eton, in terms of class sizes, personal
tuition though a range of subjects best suited to the
pupil, and maybe most important of all contacts, then
who knows maybe within a generation or two the entire
former working class could finally been eradicated for
good. And be bull****ting and backstabbing their way to
the top of the greasy pole just like everybody else.

But otherwise not.


michael adams

....

* Its difficult to believe for instance, that Richard
Dawkins really does believe that everyone else really is
as clever as he certainly believes himself to be.
Rather than that maybe other people aren't all that clever
49% are below average intelligence after all - who'd
have thought eh ?. And maybe that's the reason that they
think as they do. Basically people construct a view of
the world which best accords with their own possibly
limited understanding.
Its a good strategy of course if you write books. Because
all the dimwits who buy your books or quote your flawed
arguments concerning religion automatically assume
that makes them look as clever as you. In the eyes
of even bigger dimwits at least.

michael adams wrote
Capitol wrote

Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the
individual worker?

All you're doing there is showing your lack of understanding of the
problem.

We'll see who has that problem...

Someone posted on here the other day, about how the white working class
are now despised.

Just because some fool claims something...

Ignored might be a better word

Even sillier than you usually manage.

For 200 years the economy of this country depended on millions of workers
doing unpleasant jobs, with no aspiration at all to better their
condition.

Because otherwise they would end up in the workhouse or dead.

Otherwise they wouldn't have carried on as they did.

Yes.

Some of the really clever were able to get out, were able to pass exams,
got themselves careers and promotion ladders and joined the middle class.

Or end up in the military where they might or might not survive.

The others realised that any attempt to better themselves financially via
Unions or not, would simply lead to lock-outs and the threat of
starvation. It simply didn't do to have ambitions above your status.

That is the essence of the working class culture which was bred into the
majority of the population in the UK for 200 years.

It wasn’t bred into anyone, it was all that was available.

Only the truly arrogant or the monumentally stupid automatically
assume that everybody else must be exactly like themselves*.

No one ever did that.

In attitudes, culture whatever. Margaret Thatcher, desperate no doubt to
escape her own bourgeois roots somehow seemed to imagine that once she'd
shut down mines or steel works,

They shut themselves down because they had passed their useby dates.

all the formerly mostly acquiescent miners and steel workers

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

would suddenly all either adopt career paths or turn into entrepreneurs.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

The privately educated Blair was no better. People whose aspirations had
been bred out of them for the past 200 years

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

- more actually because most of them will have been descended from cap
doffing farm workers.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

Now had someone arranged for all their kids to go to
the equivalents of Eton, in terms of class sizes, personal
tuition though a range of subjects best suited to the
pupil, and maybe most important of all contacts, then
who knows maybe within a generation or two the entire
former working class could finally been eradicated for good.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

And be bull****ting and backstabbing their way to
the top of the greasy pole just like everybody else.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

But otherwise not.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

* Its difficult to believe for instance, that Richard
Dawkins really does believe that everyone else really is as clever as he
certainly believes himself to be.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

Rather than that maybe other people aren't all that clever 49% are below
average intelligence after all

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

- who'd have thought eh ?. And maybe that's the reason that they think as
they do. Basically people construct a view of the world which best accords
with their own . possibly limited understanding.

Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?

Its a good strategy of course if you write books. Because
all the dimwits who buy your books or quote your flawed
arguments concerning religion automatically assume
that makes them look as clever as you. In the eyes
of even bigger dimwits at least.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.

michael adams wrote:
wrote in message


Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the individual worker?

All you're doing there is showing your lack of understanding of
the problem.


Crap cut. I've lived and worked in Scotland for some years and
it has a very good work ethic if people are pointed in the right
direction. Too many of the people IME however suffer from a socialist
mentality of expecting the state to supply all their needs after they
have left the pub. Years of Labour and SNP government have not helped. A
bit of austerity would perhaps re energise the people. There's nothing
like an empty belly to provide incentive.

In article , michael
adams writes

"bert" wrote in message
...

Because lefties believe the world owes us

"Us ?"

Who exactly is this "us" who you're referring to ?

People whose forbears fought and possibly died for this
country have some claim to be treated with dignity and
either provided with a way of supporting their families
by the Government or told the truth that the Governement
are unable to provide this. Not treated with contempt.

Which is what Labour did. IDS was attempting to rescue them starting
with getting them into work, any work.
It's always easier to get a job when you are in a job.
Government does not have a magic wand.
People can maybe draw there own conclusions as to why
such a consideration has apparently never even occurred
to you.

You didn't have a history of bad eyesight, as did Margaret
Thatcher's father Alfred Roberts, in your own family as well,
by any chance ?

You've lost me there, but I've obviously touched a raw nerve. You from
Glasgow by any chance?

michael adams

...




--
bert

In article , michael
adams writes

"Capitol" wrote in message

Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the
individual worker?

All you're doing there is showing your lack of understanding of
the problem.

Someone posted on here the other day, about how the white working
class are now despised. Ignored might be a better word

For 200 years the economy of this country depended on millions
of workers doing unpleasant jobs, with no aspiration at all to
better their condition. Otherwise they wouldn't have carried
on as they did. Some of the really clever were able to get
out, were able to pass exams, got themselves careers and promotion
ladders and joined the middle class. The others realised that
any attempt to better themselves financially via Unions or not,
would simply lead to lock-outs and the threat of starvation. It
simply didn't do to have ambitions above your status.

That is the essence of the working class culture which
was bred into the majority of the population in the UK
for 200 years.

Only the truly arrogant or the monumentally stupid automatically
assume that everybody else must be exactly like themselves*.
In attitudes, culture whatever. Margaret Thatcher, desperate
no doubt to escape her own bourgeois roots somehow seemed to
imagine that once she'd shut down mines or steel works, all
the formerly mostly acquiescent miners and steel workers
would suddenly all either adopt career paths or turn into
entrepreneurs. The privately educated Blair was no better.
People whose aspirations had been bred out of them for the
past 200 years - more actually because most of them will
have been descended from cap doffing farm workers.

Now had someone arranged for all their kids to go to
the equivalents of Eton, in terms of class sizes, personal
tuition though a range of subjects best suited to the
pupil, and maybe most important of all contacts, then
who knows maybe within a generation or two the entire
former working class could finally been eradicated for
good. And be bull****ting and backstabbing their way to
the top of the greasy pole just like everybody else.

But otherwise not.


michael adams





More Guardianista problem stating without any meaningful solution.
--
bert

"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
michael adams wrote:
wrote in message


Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the individual worker?

All you're doing there is showing your lack of understanding of
the problem.


Crap cut.

Points you can't answer you mean.

I've lived and worked in Scotland for some years

Is this before or after running all these global businesses
and closing down all these factories you've been talking about ?

and it has a very good work ethic if people are pointed in the right direction.

So what direction did you point them all in ?

Poundland ? Asda ? McDonalds ? Lap Dancing Clubs ? Do tell !

Too many of the people IME however suffer from a socialist mentality of expecting the
state to supply all their needs after they have left the pub.

For some reason you seem to need some sort of an excuse to hold
your fellow men in contempt. For you its people with a "socialist
mentality". For Turnip the NG's other resident sociopath
its Greens and Lefty****s.

When I come across the likes of youreslf and Turnip, both
too afraid to post under their own names, I ask myself
what can have happened in the lives of these people
which fills them with so much hate? And impels them
to make up stories about themselves, a fantasy life
which they're so desparate to share with total strangers.

There's nothing like an empty belly to provide incentive.

Another platitude straight out of the "Hate-Filled Right Wingers
Handbook".

I bet it must have made your day when you found a copy of
that on the bus. Even if it was a bit dog-eared, and torn.

"That's Usenet sorted for another couple of months".

Just so long as you don't start quoting from the very
same chapters as Turnip, eh ?


michael adams

...




michael adams

....

michael adams wrote:
wrote in message
o.uk...

michael adams wrote:

wrote in message



Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the individual worker?


All you're doing there is showing your lack of understanding of
the problem.



Crap cut.

Points you can't answer you mean.


I've lived and worked in Scotland for some years

Is this before or after running all these global businesses
and closing down all these factories you've been talking about ?


and it has a very good work ethic if people are pointed in the right direction.

So what direction did you point them all in ?

Poundland ? Asda ? McDonalds ? Lap Dancing Clubs ? Do tell !


Too many of the people IME however suffer from a socialist mentality of expecting the
state to supply all their needs after they have left the pub.

For some reason you seem to need some sort of an excuse to hold
your fellow men in contempt. For you its people with a "socialist
mentality". For Turnip the NG's other resident sociopath
its Greens and Lefty****s.

When I come across the likes of youreslf and Turnip, both
too afraid to post under their own names, I ask myself
what can have happened in the lives of these people
which fills them with so much hate? And impels them
to make up stories about themselves, a fantasy life
which they're so desparate to share with total strangers.


There's nothing like an empty belly to provide incentive.

Another platitude straight out of the "Hate-Filled Right Wingers
Handbook".

I bet it must have made your day when you found a copy of
that on the bus. Even if it was a bit dog-eared, and torn.

"That's Usenet sorted for another couple of months".

Just so long as you don't start quoting from the very
same chapters as Turnip, eh ?


michael adams

..




michael adams

...








Your solution?

"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
michael adams wrote:
wrote in message


Why should he supply meaningful jobs? Surely that's down to the
individual worker?

All you're doing there is showing your lack of understanding of
the problem.


Crap cut. I've lived and worked in Scotland for some years and it
has a very good work ethic if people are pointed in the right direction.
Too many of the people IME however suffer from a socialist mentality of
expecting the state to supply all their needs after they have left the
pub. Years of Labour and SNP government have not helped. A bit of
austerity would perhaps re energise the people. There's nothing like an
empty belly to provide incentive.

Trouble is that there never is an empty belly anymore.
The problem is the opposite, the obesity epidemic.