Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

If you're not by now bored with the whole thing, have a look at this which
helps explain the nuts and bolts of leaving and what would be need to be
negotiated afterwards. It does try to deal with that sort of thing rather
than the more emotive bits. So very different from the politicians
involved.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

--
*Xerox and Wurlitzer will merge to market reproductive organs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim Streater explained on 18/06/2016 :
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

Because the expert opinion is just that. Opinion.

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

have a look at this which helps explain the nuts and bolts

It'll just be more mights, maybes and coulds, because neither side can
give wills or won'ts, and yes the whole thing is very tedious by now, so
my 'K' key has just seen some extra use ...

On 18/06/16 18:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

If you're not by now bored with the whole thing, have a look at this which
helps explain the nuts and bolts of leaving and what would be need to be
negotiated afterwards. It does try to deal with that sort of thing rather
than the more emotive bits. So very different from the politicians
involved.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/


You might as well ask why some people vote for socialist Labour and
others capitalist Conservatives. There's no definitive answer. In fact
it's a bit like religion and you likely copy your parents !

In article ,
John wrote:
Tim Streater explained on 18/06/2016 :
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless
pretty consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known
experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

Because the expert opinion is just that. Opinion.

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

Absolutely. But those who are and have been involved in trade negotiations
(and a knowledge of how the EU works) have more of an idea of a timescale
than those who haven't.

It's worth watching that video to see what I'm on about.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

have a look at this which helps explain the nuts and bolts

It'll just be more mights, maybes and coulds, because neither side can
give wills or won'ts, and yes the whole thing is very tedious by now, so
my 'K' key has just seen some extra use ...

You could try understanding my post.

That video explains, from the horses mouth, the likely timescale of
establishing new trade agreements. Unless you think the UK can get along
nicely without any.

--
*I don't have a license to kill, but I do have a learner's permit.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/06/16 19:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John wrote:
Tim Streater explained on 18/06/2016 :
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless
pretty consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known
experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

Because the expert opinion is just that. Opinion.

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

Absolutely. But those who are and have been involved in trade negotiations
(and a knowledge of how the EU works) have more of an idea of a timescale
than those who haven't.

It's worth watching that video to see what I'm on about.


It's surely not just about trade though, is it, though I understand
that's what the establishment are using to scare us because they think
it's their best option.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

It'll just be more mights, maybes and coulds, because neither side can
give wills or won'ts, and yes the whole thing is very tedious by now, so
my 'K' key has just seen some extra use ...

You could try understanding my post.

Presumably you posted the link because you think it helps the case for
Project Fear?

That video explains, from the horses mouth, the likely timescale of
establishing new trade agreements.

See? another "likely" ...

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

It'll just be more mights, maybes and coulds, because neither side
can give wills or won'ts, and yes the whole thing is very tedious by
now, so my 'K' key has just seen some extra use ...

You could try understanding my post.

Presumably you posted the link because you think it helps the case for
Project Fear?

Project fear? That's the only thing both sides agree on. They're both
using scare stories. Or perhaps you believe we'll get swamped by Turkish
immigrants? Now that *is* the scare story to end them all.

That video explains, from the horses mouth, the likely timescale of
establishing new trade agreements.

See? another "likely" ...

Unlike many on here who continually post links to their favourite
newspaper, this is the only one I've posted.

And it gives information that might just make some think on.

--
*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/06/2016 18:37, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.


I think the referendum is trading in large part on conservatism and fear
of the unknown (remain), and some odd notions of independence, migration
and 'sovereignty' (exit).

That bloke has a pretty decent insight, but even so I find his comments
necessarily fluffy, and his 'back to square one' closing comments are
quite probably wrong. Hopefully - if he's right, we're stuffed if the
vote goes exit.

Because the expert opinion is just that. Opinion.


I think the 'expert' part is of some importance, though :-)



--
Cheers, Rob

On 18/06/2016 18:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

If you're not by now bored with the whole thing, have a look at this which
helps explain the nuts and bolts of leaving and what would be need to be
negotiated afterwards. It does try to deal with that sort of thing rather
than the more emotive bits. So very different from the politicians
involved.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/


He is an expert some of whose work I have read before and whom I
respect. But his yardstick is - as he admits - essentially economic.
He gives no weight to the issues of (a) what the EU will become over the
next N years; (b) what will this mean for the UK and (c) immigration,
population, culture etc.

Compare his analysis with, for example, the comments of Donald Tusk on
the EU elite “Obsessed with the idea of instant and total integration,
we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe, do not
share our Euro-enthusiasm.” He is - albeit too late and with too little
power - the only President to show that he has "got it"

You may think a vote for BREXIT perverse. I may think so too (or not: I
value the secrecy of the ballot). But, despite the carrot of
power/influence/wealth, it seems to me respectable to conclude "I will
diminish and go into the West and remain Galadriel." And that is the
issue Prof Dougan understandably does not address - and more
significantly the Remain campaign appears to have run away from at their
cost.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Robin wrote:
He is an expert some of whose work I have read before and whom I
respect. But his yardstick is - as he admits - essentially economic.
He gives no weight to the issues of (a) what the EU will become over the
next N years;

Sorry, but no one can *know* what the EU will become in the future.

(b) what will this mean for the UK and (c) immigration,
population, culture etc.

I'm interested in the culture bit. Which 'culture' to you think the EU
will force on everyone? German? Would the French put up with that? French?
The Spanish would be up for that. And so on.

We are certainly not unique in wanting fundamental changes to the EU,
especially given the refugee situation of recent months.

So is it better we help formulate those reforms or watch them happen
helplessly from the outside?

--
*Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
So is it better we help formulate those reforms or watch them happen
helplessly from the outside?

Let's just watch the car crash from outside. Let'em get on with it.
Hows about we stand on our own 2 feet and sort ourselves out.
I'm not a european, I'm English, maybe left of centre (unimportant really).

Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about
near anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.

BULL****. We got nothing even remotely like that with how to
shorten a door when it catches on the floor when being opened.

Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion
in terms of facts and figures is ignored,

Because it is clear that those alleged 'experts' don’t
actually have a ****ing clue about whether Britain
should be in the eurozone or not, or about whether
it made sense to deregulate the banks either.

to be replaced by speculation and guesswork.

There is no alternative with how long the eurozone will last,
let alone what will happen as the EU desperately attempts
to stop it imploding spectacularly, or how much that will
cost, let alone whether that will be successful or not.

Don't understand why.

No surprises there...

If you're not by now bored with the whole thing, have a look
at this which helps explain the nuts and bolts of leaving

Irrelevant to whether it makes sense to leave or not.

and what would be need to be negotiated afterwards.

Nothing would. Britain is free to trade under the WTO rules
and would be free to see if the EU has enough sense to not
demand that any agreement doesn’t have to include the
free movement of people from the EU, and doesn’t involve
Britain continuing to pay what it currently pays the EU.

It does try to deal with that sort of thing rather than the more
emotive bits. So very different from the politicians involved.

And from you with your FUD.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

Just waffle and flagrant dishonesty. Britain out of the EU would
be free to trade under the EU rules and doesn’t need trade
agreements with anyone to do that. That's how the US,
China, Japan, Canada etc operate right now and they do fine.

And he completely ignores the real risk of staying in the EU, the
immense cost of desperately attempting to keep the euro going.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

have a look at this which helps explain the nuts and bolts

It'll just be more mights, maybes and coulds, because neither side can
give wills or won'ts, and yes the whole thing is very tedious by now, so
my 'K' key has just seen some extra use ...

You could try understanding my post.

That video explains, from the horses mouth, the likely
timescale of establishing new trade agreements.

But ignores the FACT that all of the US, Japan, China,
Canada etc etc etc all trade fine without them.

Unless you think the UK can get along nicely without any.

Corse it can given that all of the US, Japan, China,
Canada etc etc etc all trade fine without them.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Robin wrote:

He is an expert some of whose work I have read before and whom
I respect. But his yardstick is - as he admits - essentially economic.
He gives no weight to the issues of (a) what the EU will become over the
next N years;

Sorry, but no one can *know* what the EU will become in the future.

But we certainly know what the EU wants to do in that regard.

(b) what will this mean for the UK and
(c) immigration, population, culture etc.

I'm interested in the culture bit. Which 'culture'
to you think the EU will force on everyone?

He didn’t say anything about the EU forcing any culture on anyone.

Clearly high levels of immigration have some effect on
the culture of the country they choose to migrate to.

German? Would the French put up with that? French?
The Spanish would be up for that. And so on.

Having fun thrashing yet another straw man ?

We are certainly not unique in wanting fundamental changes to
the EU, especially given the refugee situation of recent months.

And that fool ignored that completely as well.

So is it better we help formulate those reforms
or watch them happen helplessly from the outside?

Nothing helpless about a country deciding for itself what
migrants or refugees it chooses to allow into its country.

On 18/06/2016 18:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

If you're not by now bored with the whole thing, have a look at this which
helps explain the nuts and bolts of leaving and what would be need to be
negotiated afterwards. It does try to deal with that sort of thing rather
than the more emotive bits. So very different from the politicians
involved.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/


Ask three economists for their opinions and you will get three different
answers.

*Anything* coming out of a 'university' (with its inevitable left-wing
bias) needs to be read with a healthy dose of scepticism.

On 18/06/2016 18:47, John wrote:
Tim Streater explained on 18/06/2016 :
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

Because the expert opinion is just that. Opinion.

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

But some of us do know exactly what Britain was like prior to 1973.

Just fine.

We were still a major *primary* manufacturer and exporter of cars,
lorries, buses, chemicals, adhesives, paints, glues and loads
of other stuff.

Then we joined the common market, and the miners forced out a
democratically elected government and put their socket glove
labour cronies in power.

cheap meat and dairy imports from New Zealand, Oz and Argentina
were stopped. Food prices trebled. Farmers became the new
premier league footballers with their CAP subsidies. Inflations was 25%
for 5 solid years on the trot. Milk and Oliver oil lakes grew and grew.
Butter mountains as high as everest, and periodically dumped on
world markets destroying non-common market agriculture.

UK Product after product was quietly cleansed and production moved
to mainland europe :-

Leyland truck and buses (gone)
Rootes group - Peugeot
Parts of Austin/morris - Honda then BMW
Rail manufacturing - Poland
Forklift trucks - Germany (Linde)
ICI paints - Holland (Akzo nobel)
Terrys choccy oranges - Belgium
Spam - Holland
Massey Ferguson (coventry) - France
Perkins diesels (gone)
Ford cars - all over mainland europe
Sony TVs (Bridgend) - Slovakia
Hitachi TVs - Czeck republic
Twinings tea (andover) - Poland
Cadburys (Bristol) - Poland
Pilkington float glass - Belgium

Finally the British finally saw the light and kicked Labour out but
they came back in 1997 on the back of lies and said manufacturing
no longer mattered, so it carried on shrinking while Gob****e
sucked up to the Banks. Darling even described the banks as the
'New North Sea Oil' !!!!.

Britain has become Europes credit card. We import most of their
manufactured goods and send them money in return that is borrowed
from future generations, relying on ever increasing house prices
to hide the fact that we are in deep doo-doo.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:48:02 +0100, Andrew wrote:

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

But some of us do know exactly what Britain was like prior to 1973.

Just fine.

I hate to tell you this, but the rest of the world's changed quite a lot
in the 43 years since then.

The world does that, y'know.

43 years before 1973 was 1930. The world changed quite a lot in that 43
years.

43 years before 1930 was 1887. The world changed quite a lot in that 43
years.

43 years before 1887 was 1844. The world changed quite a lot in that 43
years, too.

Would 1843-UK have fared well in 1887? Would 1887-UK have fared well in
1930? Would 1930-UK have fared well in 1973?

Of course they bloody wouldn't.

So why would 1973-UK fare well in 2016? It's a ridiculous thought.

On 19/06/2016 00:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
He is an expert some of whose work I have read before and whom I
respect. But his yardstick is - as he admits - essentially economic.
He gives no weight to the issues of (a) what the EU will become over the
next N years;

Sorry, but no one can *know* what the EU will become in the future.

We can be certain more developing countries will join like Turkey, with
hoards of migrants taking indigenous UK jobs.

We can be certain the infrastructure and housing won't grow proportionately.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

careful what you wish for

most of the other groups that I contribute to are all but dead

tim

On 19/06/16 01:25, bm wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
So is it better we help formulate those reforms or watch them happen
helplessly from the outside?

Let's just watch the car crash from outside. Let'em get on with it.
Hows about we stand on our own 2 feet and sort ourselves out.
I'm not a european, I'm English, maybe left of centre (unimportant really).




As far as I am concerned left and right simply refer to which fairy tale
you prefer to believe in.

Grown up people aren't left or right, just aware that life is difficult
and we solved the easy problems years ago. What are left are the right
buggers.

Listen to what people here say. 'I want to know what is the right
decision' 'Tell me the real facts' 'surely there must be a simple answer'

The fact that we are arguing about it, shows there aint.

Then 'oh well we will leave it to the experts to decide'

And what makes them experts? They got *elected*? That makes them experts
in ...getting elected, and usually means they are more convincing liars.

Or perhaps they are University professors? Who pays their salaries then?
The government? And you want an unbiased opinion from them about
something that deeply touches the government?

Should we try a think-tank? Hang on those people are employees too! Who
funds this NGO then? Oh it's the EU and the government! Turkeys
Christmas Vote...


So experts are no bloody good either. They are employees and will say
what they need to to keep their jobs.

So maybe we should just leave it to the chaps in Brussels, and trust them?

Then you look at the shambling drunken Junckers, the IQ lower than the
ceiling Schulze, the screaming harridans of the Green party, the lard
arsed Stasi apparatchik from Germany with the Rosa Klebb smile, and
think please, cant we do better?

In the end, there is one thing Brexit will buy you.

The ability every 5 years to sack the utter ****s you know will have
clawed their way to the top of politics.

Staying in means you give up that right forever, or until the EU itself
collapses or there is armed insurgency across Europe. Or until ISIL
takes over.





--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 19/06/16 09:48, Andrew wrote:
On 18/06/2016 18:47, John wrote:
Tim Streater explained on 18/06/2016 :
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless
pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

Because the expert opinion is just that. Opinion.

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

But some of us do know exactly what Britain was like prior to 1973.

Just fine.

We were still a major *primary* manufacturer and exporter of cars,
lorries, buses, chemicals, adhesives, paints, glues and loads
of other stuff.

Then we joined the common market, and the miners forced out a
democratically elected government and put their socket glove
labour cronies in power.

cheap meat and dairy imports from New Zealand, Oz and Argentina
were stopped. Food prices trebled. Farmers became the new
premier league footballers with their CAP subsidies. Inflations was 25%
for 5 solid years on the trot. Milk and Oliver oil lakes grew and grew.
Butter mountains as high as everest, and periodically dumped on
world markets destroying non-common market agriculture.

UK Product after product was quietly cleansed and production moved
to mainland europe :-

Leyland truck and buses (gone)
Rootes group - Peugeot
Parts of Austin/morris - Honda then BMW
Rail manufacturing - Poland
Forklift trucks - Germany (Linde)
ICI paints - Holland (Akzo nobel)
Terrys choccy oranges - Belgium
Spam - Holland
Massey Ferguson (coventry) - France
Perkins diesels (gone)
Ford cars - all over mainland europe
Sony TVs (Bridgend) - Slovakia
Hitachi TVs - Czeck republic
Twinings tea (andover) - Poland
Cadburys (Bristol) - Poland
Pilkington float glass - Belgium

Finally the British finally saw the light and kicked Labour out but
they came back in 1997 on the back of lies and said manufacturing
no longer mattered, so it carried on shrinking while Gob****e
sucked up to the Banks. Darling even described the banks as the
'New North Sea Oil' !!!!.

Britain has become Europes credit card. We import most of their
manufactured goods and send them money in return that is borrowed
from future generations, relying on ever increasing house prices
to hide the fact that we are in deep doo-doo.

Pretty fair summary.

Of course its a moot point as to how much of that would have happened
anyway.


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 19/06/16 09:52, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:48:02 +0100, Andrew wrote:

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

But some of us do know exactly what Britain was like prior to 1973.

Just fine.

I hate to tell you this, but the rest of the world's changed quite a lot
in the 43 years since then.

The world does that, y'know.

43 years before 1973 was 1930. The world changed quite a lot in that 43
years.

43 years before 1930 was 1887. The world changed quite a lot in that 43
years.

43 years before 1887 was 1844. The world changed quite a lot in that 43
years, too.

Would 1843-UK have fared well in 1887? Would 1887-UK have fared well in
1930? Would 1930-UK have fared well in 1973?

Of course they bloody wouldn't.

So why would 1973-UK fare well in 2016? It's a ridiculous thought.

And will a 2016 EU fare well in 2059?

Heck its broken already. I very much doubt it will be there in 2059...

So why not leave it before it takes us down with it?

Even rats leave sinking ships.



--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On 19/06/16 10:09, Fredxxx wrote:
On 19/06/2016 00:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
He is an expert some of whose work I have read before and whom I
respect. But his yardstick is - as he admits - essentially economic.
He gives no weight to the issues of (a) what the EU will become over the
next N years;

Sorry, but no one can *know* what the EU will become in the future.

We can be certain more developing countries will join like Turkey, with
hoards of migrants taking indigenous UK jobs.

We can be certain the infrastructure and housing won't grow
proportionately.

WE can be certain it will be full of gravy train riding incompetents and
representatives of narrow lobby interests, and no representatives of
the people, because there is no mechanism for the people to affect it.

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:00:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Would 1843-UK have fared well in 1887? Would 1887-UK have fared well in
1930? Would 1930-UK have fared well in 1973?

Of course they bloody wouldn't.

So why would 1973-UK fare well in 2016? It's a ridiculous thought.

And will a 2016 EU fare well in 2059?

Why would it have to? It'll change along with the world - both in
response to external changes, and proactively in helping to shape them.

On 19/06/16 11:23, Adrian wrote:
It'll change along with the world - both in
response to external changes, and proactively in helping to shape them.


ROFLMAO!!!




--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.

BULL****. We got nothing even remotely like that with how to
shorten a door when it catches on the floor when being opened.

Sorry. I was referring to when this was a decent DIY group. Before cretins
like you got involved with it and ruined it.

--
*I don't feel old. I don't feel anything until noon. Then it's time for my nap.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
If you're not by now bored with the whole thing, have a look at this
which helps explain the nuts and bolts of leaving and what would be
need to be negotiated afterwards. It does try to deal with that sort
of thing rather than the more emotive bits. So very different from the
politicians involved.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/


Ask three economists for their opinions and you will get three different
answers.

He's not an economist.

Might help if you watched the video before commenting.

--
*Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

But some of us do know exactly what Britain was like prior to 1973.

Just fine.

You apparently have a very short memory or more likely rose tinted specs.
Or just wish to go back to when you were young.

We were still a major *primary* manufacturer and exporter of cars,
lorries, buses, chemicals, adhesives, paints, glues and loads
of other stuff.

Then we joined the common market, and the miners forced out a
democratically elected government and put their socket glove
labour cronies in power.

cheap meat and dairy imports from New Zealand, Oz and Argentina
were stopped. Food prices trebled. Farmers became the new
premier league footballers with their CAP subsidies. Inflations was 25%
for 5 solid years on the trot. Milk and Oliver oil lakes grew and grew.
Butter mountains as high as everest, and periodically dumped on
world markets destroying non-common market agriculture.

UK Product after product was quietly cleansed and production moved
to mainland europe :-

Leyland truck and buses (gone)
Rootes group - Peugeot
Parts of Austin/morris - Honda then BMW

Can't be bothered with your whole list but it's generally accepted that
the Japanese cars industry killed off the UK one, by offering better value
and reliability. Same as with the UK motorcycle industry.

It's also generally accepted that UK industry at that time suffered from
under investment. Its priority was decent returns to its shareholders.
Unlike Germany, which invested for the future.

--
*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
On 19/06/2016 00:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
He is an expert some of whose work I have read before and whom I
respect. But his yardstick is - as he admits - essentially economic.
He gives no weight to the issues of (a) what the EU will become over the
next N years;

Sorry, but no one can *know* what the EU will become in the future.

We can be certain more developing countries will join like Turkey, with
hoards of migrants taking indigenous UK jobs.

No you can't. But carry on with your fear tactics. They seem to be working
with those who have barely a brain cell intact.

We can be certain the infrastructure and housing won't grow
proportionately.

Which is entirely under the control of the UK government. Leaving the EU
won't make them change direction on this.

--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 11:00:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Would 1843-UK have fared well in 1887? Would 1887-UK have fared well in
1930? Would 1930-UK have fared well in 1973?

Of course they bloody wouldn't.

So why would 1973-UK fare well in 2016? It's a ridiculous thought.

And will a 2016 EU fare well in 2059?

Why would it have to? It'll change along with the world - both in
response to external changes, and proactively in helping to shape them.

I'm not terribly concerned about 2059 since I won't be around then.

But I am concerned about the near future. And not just for myself but for
the majority. The very rich don't need my concern - they are always the
last to suffer.

--
*Arkansas State Motto: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Laugh.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Fredxxx wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Robin wrote:

Sorry, but no one can *know* what the EU will become in the future.

We can be certain more developing countries will join like
Turkey, with hoards of migrants taking indigenous UK jobs.

No you can't.

Yes you can, because that is how the EU operates for whatever reason.

We can be certain the infrastructure and
housing won't grow proportionately.

Which is entirely under the control of the UK government.
Leaving the EU won't make them change direction on this.

It would mean that Britain wouldn’t have to accept any EU
citizen that chooses to move to Britain and so the rate at
which Britain chooses to build more houses might well be
closer to the number who are allowed to move to Britain.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.

BULL****. We got nothing even remotely like that with how to
shorten a door when it catches on the floor when being opened.

Sorry. I was referring to when this was a decent DIY group.
Before cretins like you got involved with it and ruined it.

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Plenty of examples of the exact opposite of
your bare faced lie before I ever showed up.

I am bored but it can be distracting to throw a few spanners now and again,
if the locals like fetching sticks carry on throwing them.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts and
figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork. Don't
understand why.

If you're not by now bored with the whole thing, have a look at this which
helps explain the nuts and bolts of leaving and what would be need to be
negotiated afterwards. It does try to deal with that sort of thing rather
than the more emotive bits. So very different from the politicians
involved.

https://www.facebook.com/Universityo...3361974024537/

--
*Xerox and Wurlitzer will merge to market reproductive organs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 10:57:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 19/06/16 09:48, Andrew wrote:
On 18/06/2016 18:47, John wrote:
Tim Streater explained on 18/06/2016 :
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Being a once decent DIY group, if someone asked for advice about near
anything related, they'd get a reasonably consistent set of answers.
Plenty of debate about the dotting of 'I's, etc, but nevertheless
pretty
consistent. And maybe even a link to a site written by known experts.

But with this EU nonsense, all the expert opinion in terms of facts
and figures is ignored, to be replaced by speculation and guesswork.
Don't understand why.

Because the expert opinion is just that. Opinion.

And no-one has a crystal ball that can accurately predict the future so
by its very nature, it's all guesswork. All we can do is act on our own
feelings because no-one can tell us EXACTLY what WILL happen.

But some of us do know exactly what Britain was like prior to 1973.

Just fine.

We were still a major *primary* manufacturer and exporter of cars,
lorries, buses, chemicals, adhesives, paints, glues and loads of other
stuff.

Then we joined the common market, and the miners forced out a
democratically elected government and put their socket glove labour
cronies in power.

cheap meat and dairy imports from New Zealand, Oz and Argentina were
stopped. Food prices trebled. Farmers became the new premier league
footballers with their CAP subsidies. Inflations was 25% for 5 solid
years on the trot. Milk and Oliver oil lakes grew and grew. Butter
mountains as high as everest, and periodically dumped on world markets
destroying non-common market agriculture.

UK Product after product was quietly cleansed and production moved to
mainland europe :-

Leyland truck and buses (gone)
Rootes group - Peugeot
Parts of Austin/morris - Honda then BMW Rail manufacturing - Poland
Forklift trucks - Germany (Linde)
ICI paints - Holland (Akzo nobel)
Terrys choccy oranges - Belgium
Spam - Holland
Massey Ferguson (coventry) - France
Perkins diesels (gone)
Ford cars - all over mainland europe Sony TVs (Bridgend) - Slovakia
Hitachi TVs - Czeck republic
Twinings tea (andover) - Poland
Cadburys (Bristol) - Poland
Pilkington float glass - Belgium

Finally the British finally saw the light and kicked Labour out but they
came back in 1997 on the back of lies and said manufacturing no longer
mattered, so it carried on shrinking while Gob****e sucked up to the
Banks. Darling even described the banks as the 'New North Sea Oil' !!!!.

Britain has become Europes credit card. We import most of their
manufactured goods and send them money in return that is borrowed from
future generations, relying on ever increasing house prices to hide the
fact that we are in deep doo-doo.

Pretty fair summary.

Of course its a moot point as to how much of that would have happened
anyway.

Well don't be fooled by the Remainers saying that the UK would lose jobs,
we have already lost thousands thanks to the EU:-

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia
with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel
works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to
Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using
SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU
grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant,
once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along
with the patents all with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit (washers and dryers) at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam
plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU
funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the
Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland's AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days
of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500
jobs.
Boot's sold to the Italians - Stefano Pessina, who have based their
HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using
an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JDSU ) run by two Dutch men,
bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration'
grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving
1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK
tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (and
don't forget, these grants are all made with OUR money).
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
UK strategic oil pipelines (military airfields) are owned by a Spanish
company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company
EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that
has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say
the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does
come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not
any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation
market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing
altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which
they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. 39% of British
invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in
the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British
engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign
bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird,
Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far
east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the
Netherlands too, as they have said recently.
And so on, & so on..........
So IMO *anyone* who tells you that the EU is good for British industry (or
any other UK business) & creates jobs, is lying through their teeth.

--
The New European Soviet - Mikhail Gorbachev
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/globa.../soviet-eu.htm

WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU.
Master Investor, economist and entrepreneur, Jim Mellon, argues Britain is
better off leaving the "sinking ship" that is the European Union. If we stay in
the EU, within 3-5 years Britain will be forced to deal with the devastating
knock-on effects of a collapsing Euro and continental-wide depression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o

On 19/06/16 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/06/16 01:25, bm wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
So is it better we help formulate those reforms or watch them happen
helplessly from the outside?

Let's just watch the car crash from outside. Let'em get on with it.
Hows about we stand on our own 2 feet and sort ourselves out.
I'm not a european, I'm English, maybe left of centre (unimportant
really).




As far as I am concerned left and right simply refer to which fairy tale
you prefer to believe in.

Grown up people aren't left or right, just aware that life is difficult
and we solved the easy problems years ago. What are left are the right
buggers.


+1

€¦ hear! hear!
In the end, there is one thing Brexit will buy you.

The ability every 5 years to sack the utter ****s you know will have
clawed their way to the top of politics.

Staying in means you give up that right forever, or until the EU itself
collapses or there is armed insurgency across Europe. Or until ISIL
takes over.

+1


--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On 19/06/16 12:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'm not terribly concerned about 2059 since I won't be around then.

But I am concerned about the near future. And not just for myself but for
the majority. The very rich don't need my concern - they are always the
last to suffer.

So you don't have children, or grandchildren?




--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

In article ,
DJC wrote:
On 19/06/16 12:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'm not terribly concerned about 2059 since I won't be around then.

But I am concerned about the near future. And not just for myself but
for the majority. The very rich don't need my concern - they are
always the last to suffer.

So you don't have children, or grandchildren?

If you want to project generations in time...

My father was in two WW both started in Europe.

I'm about the age he was when he died, and although born during WW2 don't
remember it. And although there has been some conflict within Europe in my
lifetime, nothing like on the same scale.

And nothing within the EU.

I'd like my children and grandchildren to be able to say the same.

And I'd not be foolish enough to predict how well an independant UK might
do in 40 years time or whatever. And anyone who thinks they can is simply
deluded.

But I'm pretty certain the short to medium term outlook for the economy
will be bleak if we leave, as that's what has started to happen already
with just the threat it might happen - and it's also the view of most of
the economists around the world.

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
DJC wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

I'm not terribly concerned about 2059 since I won't be around then.

But I am concerned about the near future. And not just
for myself but for the majority. The very rich don't need
my concern - they are always the last to suffer.

So you don't have children, or grandchildren?

If you want to project generations in time...

My father was in two WW both started in Europe.

I'm about the age he was when he died, and although born during
WW2 don't remember it. And although there has been some conflict
within Europe in my lifetime, nothing like on the same scale.

And nothing within the EU.

I'd like my children and grandchildren to be able to say the same.

They will, with Britain inside or outside of the EU.

And I'd not be foolish enough to predict how well an
independant UK might do in 40 years time or whatever.
And anyone who thinks they can is simply deluded.

Just as true of the EU.

But I'm pretty certain the short to medium term
outlook for the economy will be bleak if we leave,

More fool you.

as that's what has started to happen already
with just the threat it might happen

Even sillier than you usually manage.

- and it's also the view of most of
the economists around the world.

Who almost universally proclaimed that Britain would be best inside
the eurozone. And we know how wrong they were about that.