Riverside Cottage 5...

Some years ago, in a fit of excess funds, my sister had a patio canopy
installed. Now considered redundant!

3m wide and mounted on 75mm box section steel uprights through patio
slabs.

How likely am I to recover the uprights from the usual installation
technique?

The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Any thoughts?


--
Tim Lamb

On 18/06/2016 10:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
Riverside Cottage 5...

Some years ago, in a fit of excess funds, my sister had a patio canopy
installed. Now considered redundant!

3m wide and mounted on 75mm box section steel uprights through patio slabs.

How likely am I to recover the uprights from the usual installation
technique?

The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Any thoughts?


Alas I've never installed one like that, mine always bolt to the wall.
Bear in mind that you can buy a 3m budget awning new for £150, is it
worth the bother?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman

On 18/06/2016 10:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
Riverside Cottage 5...

Some years ago, in a fit of excess funds, my sister had a patio canopy
installed. Now considered redundant!

3m wide and mounted on 75mm box section steel uprights through patio slabs.

How likely am I to recover the uprights from the usual installation
technique?

The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Any thoughts?



Dig down to the concrete, drill a line of small holes and then split it
with a chisel.

It might still be usable cut off at ground level if you use some fencing
bases like ..

http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/p...wn_shoe/715008

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:37:03 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:


The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Cut the posts at ground level and buy a piece of 80mm square section
steel of appropriate length Slide the 75mm steel into the 80mm and
weld in place.

In message , David Lang
writes
On 18/06/2016 10:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
Riverside Cottage 5...

Some years ago, in a fit of excess funds, my sister had a patio canopy
installed. Now considered redundant!

3m wide and mounted on 75mm box section steel uprights through patio slabs.

How likely am I to recover the uprights from the usual installation
technique?

The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Any thoughts?


Alas I've never installed one like that, mine always bolt to the wall.
Bear in mind that you can buy a 3m budget awning new for £150, is it
worth the bother?

OK. This is a chalet bungalow so I guess it had to be self supporting. I
can see your problem with getting that weight up that high!

I had a nose round e-bay after posting and could not find anything to
match.

I'll get the slabs up and have a look. Prolly postcrete which should
split.

It will be in the way of the builders putting in a dormer so got to go.

--
Tim Lamb

In message ,
lid writes
On 18/06/2016 10:37, Tim Lamb wrote:
Riverside Cottage 5...

Some years ago, in a fit of excess funds, my sister had a patio canopy
installed. Now considered redundant!

3m wide and mounted on 75mm box section steel uprights through patio slabs.

How likely am I to recover the uprights from the usual installation
technique?

The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Any thoughts?



Dig down to the concrete, drill a line of small holes and then split it
with a chisel.

It might still be usable cut off at ground level if you use some
fencing bases like ..

http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/p..._shed_hardware
/fence_post_shoes/485009/fence_post_bolt_down_shoe/715008

OK Dennis. Yours to fetch:-)

--
Tim Lamb

In message , Peter Parry
writes
On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:37:03 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:


The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Cut the posts at ground level and buy a piece of 80mm square section
steel of appropriate length Slide the 75mm steel into the 80mm and
weld in place.

Or a few bits of suitable angle.

I had thought of selling it when I first posted but I don't think the
market needs any more.

--
Tim Lamb

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 16:48:29 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Peter Parry
writes
On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:37:03 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:


The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Cut the posts at ground level and buy a piece of 80mm square section
steel of appropriate length Slide the 75mm steel into the 80mm and
weld in place.

Or a few bits of suitable angle.

I had thought of selling it when I first posted but I don't think the
market needs any more.

Would it be the sort of thing you could put on the front of a South
facing garden located garage / workshop to give a little sun / rain
protection, if working out in the front of the garage? Something you
can roll / fold away in the bad weather?

Is it like the things you see in front of shops or am I thinking of
something else?

If it is what I think it is and you end up de-valuing it by cutting it
off at the ankles, I might be able to offer you something for it?

Cheers, T i m

On 18/06/2016 16:46, Tim Lamb wrote:

OK Dennis. Yours to fetch:-)


Can you post it if I send you a few books of stamps? 8-)

In message , T i m
writes
On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 16:48:29 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , Peter Parry
writes
On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 10:37:03 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:


The canopy is weathered but otherwise appears in good order. Cutting the
posts off below patio level will destroy any re-use value.

Cut the posts at ground level and buy a piece of 80mm square section
steel of appropriate length Slide the 75mm steel into the 80mm and
weld in place.

Or a few bits of suitable angle.

I had thought of selling it when I first posted but I don't think the
market needs any more.

Would it be the sort of thing you could put on the front of a South
facing garden located garage / workshop to give a little sun / rain
protection, if working out in the front of the garage? Something you
can roll / fold away in the bad weather?

Is it like the things you see in front of shops or am I thinking of
something else?

Similar but this is self supporting.

If it is what I think it is and you end up de-valuing it by cutting it
off at the ankles, I might be able to offer you something for it?

You'll have to top Dennis's book of stamps:-)

I'll put a photo up over the weekend.

The operation is manual with a long, cranked handle

--
Tim Lamb

On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:01:11 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:
snip

Would it be the sort of thing you could put on the front of a South
facing garden located garage / workshop to give a little sun / rain
protection, if working out in the front of the garage? Something you
can roll / fold away in the bad weather?

Is it like the things you see in front of shops or am I thinking of
something else?

Similar but this is self supporting.

That could be better for me if I could take some of the weight on the
'legs' but just hold it back against the (pre-fab) garage?

If it is what I think it is and you end up de-valuing it by cutting it
off at the ankles, I might be able to offer you something for it?

You'll have to top Dennis's book of stamps:-)

That should be too difficult (depending on how big the book is). ;-

I'll put a photo up over the weekend.

Cool.

The operation is manual with a long, cranked handle

I know the thing.

Cheers, T i m

In message , T i m
writes
On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:01:11 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:
snip

Would it be the sort of thing you could put on the front of a South
facing garden located garage / workshop to give a little sun / rain
protection, if working out in the front of the garage? Something you
can roll / fold away in the bad weather?

Is it like the things you see in front of shops or am I thinking of
something else?

Similar but this is self supporting.

That could be better for me if I could take some of the weight on the
'legs' but just hold it back against the (pre-fab) garage?

If it is what I think it is and you end up de-valuing it by cutting it
off at the ankles, I might be able to offer you something for it?

You'll have to top Dennis's book of stamps:-)

That should be too difficult (depending on how big the book is). ;-

I'll put a photo up over the weekend.

Cool.

The operation is manual with a long, cranked handle

I know the thing.

OK Try this

http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

I'm not sure if the cranked arms should fully straighten. The canopy was
taught as shown. The fringe is weathered but otherwise sound.

Any literature was dumped when my daughters cleared the house!

--
Tim Lamb

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:55:37 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

OK Try this

http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

Thanks for those Tim.

I'm not sure if the cranked arms should fully straighten.

From what I've seen of them I don't think they do.

The canopy was
taught as shown.

Understood.

The fringe is weathered but otherwise sound.

;-)

Any literature was dumped when my daughters cleared the house!

And why 'clearing out' isn't (or shouldn't be IMHO) a 'bulk process'.
;-(

So, looking at the picture it looks like the canopy itself may be
pretty std and has 'just' been bolted to the steels as a means of
mounting it high enough (on that building) to be high enough at the
lower end?

It also looks like there is a means of adjustment on the lower
mounting bolts to set the 'fall' on the canopy? (Large enough to shed
water but low enough to provide headroom).

What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

Obviously it must work (especially when bolted to 75mm Sq steel box
sections g) but ... ;-(

So, unless you (now) want to advertise / sell the canopy on it's own
elsewhere (unless there may have been additional wall mounting
brackets that will have been thrown with the instructions?) then I'll
check the width of the garage and get back to you if I may?

On that, could I ask you to measure the distance between centres on
the mounting brackets please Tim as that could be a deal breaker on my
steel / concrete / timber garage fascia.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Would you think the material would be waterproof (if I wanted to
use it for a bit of temporary rain protection)? If it's std canvas I
think it is waterproof naturally as the fibres swell up when wet (I
think I remember from cotton tents).

On 19/06/2016 12:02, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:55:37 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

OK Try this

http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

Thanks for those Tim.

I'm not sure if the cranked arms should fully straighten.

From what I've seen of them I don't think they do.

They definitely don't! If they ever did, you couldn't retract the awning!

The canopy was
taught as shown.

Understood.

The fringe is weathered but otherwise sound.

;-)

Any literature was dumped when my daughters cleared the house!

And why 'clearing out' isn't (or shouldn't be IMHO) a 'bulk process'.
;-(

So, looking at the picture it looks like the canopy itself may be
pretty std and has 'just' been bolted to the steels as a means of
mounting it high enough (on that building) to be high enough at the
lower end?

My thoughts exactly. The height is one reason, but you can't fit an
awning that close to a roof line, in high winds it could damage the few
courses of brick above it.

If used on a two story building the vertical posts wouldn't be required.

It also looks like there is a means of adjustment on the lower
mounting bolts to set the 'fall' on the canopy? (Large enough to shed
water but low enough to provide headroom).

There usually is, the method varies. 15 degrees is the standard. TAN 15
will give you the measurements.

What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

Obviously it must work (especially when bolted to 75mm Sq steel box
sections g) but ... ;-(

That looks about 4 metres wide? The ones I install have 3 HD brackets
each with 4 fixing bolts & I either use Thunderbolts if I can see the
brick, or resin if I can't.

So, unless you (now) want to advertise / sell the canopy on it's own
elsewhere (unless there may have been additional wall mounting
brackets that will have been thrown with the instructions?) then I'll
check the width of the garage and get back to you if I may?

On that, could I ask you to measure the distance between centres on
the mounting brackets please Tim as that could be a deal breaker on my
steel / concrete / timber garage fascia.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Would you think the material would be waterproof (if I wanted to
use it for a bit of temporary rain protection)? If it's std canvas I
think it is waterproof naturally as the fibres swell up when wet (I
think I remember from cotton tents).

Usually polyester. They are rain proof, but in heavy rain the cover
will touch the arms and you get drips.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman

In message , T i m
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:55:37 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

OK Try this

http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

Thanks for those Tim.

I'm not sure if the cranked arms should fully straighten.

From what I've seen of them I don't think they do.

The canopy was
taught as shown.

Taut!

Understood.

The fringe is weathered but otherwise sound.

;-)

Any literature was dumped when my daughters cleared the house!

And why 'clearing out' isn't (or shouldn't be IMHO) a 'bulk process'.

Yeah! She skipped the manual for the cooker and the cleaning chemicals
have destroyed the legend plate so we now have a non working Whirlpool
cooker that can't be identified. Oh well soon be another skip.
;-(

So, looking at the picture it looks like the canopy itself may be
pretty std and has 'just' been bolted to the steels as a means of
mounting it high enough (on that building) to be high enough at the
lower end?

Currently about 6'6" fully extended.

It also looks like there is a means of adjustment on the lower
mounting bolts to set the 'fall' on the canopy? (Large enough to shed
water but low enough to provide headroom).

Pass.

What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

I imagine you rush out in your night-gown and wind it back:-)

Obviously it must work (especially when bolted to 75mm Sq steel box
sections g) but ... ;-(

So, unless you (now) want to advertise / sell the canopy on it's own
elsewhere (unless there may have been additional wall mounting
brackets that will have been thrown with the instructions?) then I'll
check the width of the garage and get back to you if I may?

Not me. I buy from the Bay but don't sell!

On that, could I ask you to measure the distance between centres on
the mounting brackets please Tim as that could be a deal breaker on my
steel / concrete / timber garage fascia.

Outside to outside of the posts was 3m. I can check again if it is
critical.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Would you think the material would be waterproof (if I wanted to
use it for a bit of temporary rain protection)? If it's std canvas I
think it is waterproof naturally as the fibres swell up when wet (I
think I remember from cotton tents).

Pass again. Shower proof certainly. I would guess at some sort of man
made fibre rather than cotton. Remember rain doesn't always fall
vertically.

--
Tim Lamb

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:14:35 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip good stuff

Not me. I buy from the Bay but don't sell!

;-)

On that, could I ask you to measure the distance between centres on
the mounting brackets please Tim as that could be a deal breaker on my
steel / concrete / timber garage fascia.

Outside to outside of the posts was 3m. I can check again if it is
critical.

That should be close enough Tim. If you say the uprights were 75 sq
and the brackets in the middle of each that puts the centres at about
2925mm. I've just checked and the garage is a nats under 3m so with a
bit of fabrication I might be able to pick on the std panel mounting
bolts.


p.s. Would you think the material would be waterproof (if I wanted to
use it for a bit of temporary rain protection)? If it's std canvas I
think it is waterproof naturally as the fibres swell up when wet (I
think I remember from cotton tents).

Pass again. Shower proof certainly. I would guess at some sort of man
made fibre rather than cotton. Remember rain doesn't always fall
vertically.

;-)

So, if you want to think of a number and pop me an email (you still
have my address from before or this one works) and let me know when
you are ready to take it down I'd be happy to pop over and help.

If you don't want whatever lengths of that 75mm sq box you end up with
and cant use them on the farm I'd be happy to put them in my
fabrication stock. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:58:56 +0100, David Lang
wrote:

snip

They definitely don't! If they ever did, you couldn't retract the awning!

I thought there might be something like that but I can't remember
'how' they do work now?

snip

So, looking at the picture it looks like the canopy itself may be
pretty std and has 'just' been bolted to the steels as a means of
mounting it high enough (on that building) to be high enough at the
lower end?

My thoughts exactly. The height is one reason, but you can't fit an
awning that close to a roof line, in high winds it could damage the few
courses of brick above it.

And I was thinking that as well

If used on a two story building the vertical posts wouldn't be required.

I'm not sure I could get a good anchorage for something like that into
this Victorian house (with soft 'stock' bricks) on any wall! On an
A.R. aerial I mounted on the back I bolted the bracket *though* the
wall. ;-)


It also looks like there is a means of adjustment on the lower
mounting bolts to set the 'fall' on the canopy? (Large enough to shed
water but low enough to provide headroom).

There usually is, the method varies. 15 degrees is the standard. TAN 15
will give you the measurements.

Cheers.

What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

Obviously it must work (especially when bolted to 75mm Sq steel box
sections g) but ... ;-(

That looks about 4 metres wide?

I think Tim mentioned it was around 3.

The ones I install have 3 HD brackets

Do you mean one at each end and one in the middle? I would have
thought the middle was more difficult to find a good anchorage with?

each with 4 fixing bolts & I either use Thunderbolts if I can see the
brick, or resin if I can't.

If I get this and fit it to the front of the garage (workshop) I will
have to see what I can do as at the place I would want it, it's a
wooden facing on a wooden frame (low apex roof) over the door so I
might have to bring some steel box up from where the door frame bolts
through the concrete panels and then onto the brackets.

snip

p.s. Would you think the material would be waterproof (if I wanted to
use it for a bit of temporary rain protection)? If it's std canvas I
think it is waterproof naturally as the fibres swell up when wet (I
think I remember from cotton tents).

Usually polyester.

Ah, ok.

They are rain proof, but in heavy rain the cover
will touch the arms and you get drips.

Understood.

Any idea if you can (typically) get replacement canopies as I know
from many motorcycle and trailer covers how any of this synthetic
stuff seems to get destroyed by the sun? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 19/06/2016 21:42, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:58:56 +0100, David Lang
wrote:

snip

They definitely don't! If they ever did, you couldn't retract the awning!

I thought there might be something like that but I can't remember
'how' they do work now?

The arms are spring loaded and under torsion, There is a cable inside
the torsion bar that either lets it go out or winds it back in.

snip

So, looking at the picture it looks like the canopy itself may be
pretty std and has 'just' been bolted to the steels as a means of
mounting it high enough (on that building) to be high enough at the
lower end?

My thoughts exactly. The height is one reason, but you can't fit an
awning that close to a roof line, in high winds it could damage the few
courses of brick above it.

And I was thinking that as well

If used on a two story building the vertical posts wouldn't be required.

I'm not sure I could get a good anchorage for something like that into
this Victorian house (with soft 'stock' bricks) on any wall! On an
A.R. aerial I mounted on the back I bolted the bracket *though* the
wall. ;-)


Resin anchors are the answer!

It also looks like there is a means of adjustment on the lower
mounting bolts to set the 'fall' on the canopy? (Large enough to shed
water but low enough to provide headroom).

There usually is, the method varies. 15 degrees is the standard. TAN 15
will give you the measurements.

Cheers.

What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

Obviously it must work (especially when bolted to 75mm Sq steel box
sections g) but ... ;-(

That looks about 4 metres wide?

I think Tim mentioned it was around 3.

The ones I install have 3 HD brackets

Do you mean one at each end and one in the middle?

Yes. Although a 3m only has one at each end.

I would have
thought the middle was more difficult to find a good anchorage with?

? No, can't see why?


each with 4 fixing bolts & I either use Thunderbolts if I can see the
brick, or resin if I can't.

If I get this and fit it to the front of the garage (workshop) I will
have to see what I can do as at the place I would want it, it's a
wooden facing on a wooden frame (low apex roof) over the door so I
might have to bring some steel box up from where the door frame bolts
through the concrete panels and then onto the brackets.

snip

p.s. Would you think the material would be waterproof (if I wanted to
use it for a bit of temporary rain protection)? If it's std canvas I
think it is waterproof naturally as the fibres swell up when wet (I
think I remember from cotton tents).

Usually polyester.

Ah, ok.

They are rain proof, but in heavy rain the cover
will touch the arms and you get drips.

Understood.

Any idea if you can (typically) get replacement canopies as I know
from many motorcycle and trailer covers how any of this synthetic
stuff seems to get destroyed by the sun? ;-(

http://www.primrose-awnings.co.uk/30...c=def_cat_list

Cheers, T i m



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 22:40:06 +0100, David Lang
wrote:

On 19/06/2016 21:42, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 12:58:56 +0100, David Lang
wrote:

snip

They definitely don't! If they ever did, you couldn't retract the awning!

I thought there might be something like that but I can't remember
'how' they do work now?

The arms are spring loaded and under torsion, There is a cable inside
the torsion bar that either lets it go out or winds it back in.

Ah, makes sense (and why they have to keep some bend in them).

snip

I'm not sure I could get a good anchorage for something like that into
this Victorian house (with soft 'stock' bricks) on any wall! On an
A.R. aerial I mounted on the back I bolted the bracket *though* the
wall. ;-)


Resin anchors are the answer!

Again, I've seen them mentioned but not used them myself. My worry
(with this place) is that no matter how good an anchor you got on a
brick that it didn't pull the brick out of the wall as the mortar is
mostly sand. ;-(

snip

Do you mean one at each end and one in the middle?

Yes. Although a 3m only has one at each end.

I can't see from Tim's pictures but are there *specific* mounting
points on the rear of the canopy frame or are they 'slots'?

I would have
thought the middle was more difficult to find a good anchorage with?

? No, can't see why?

I'm assuming you are typically putting these things over patio doors
and so the middle (specifically) might be on the soldier course could
be just sat on the front of a Catnic lintel? If it was higher up the
wall then I guess it should be ok.


snip

Any idea if you can (typically) get replacement canopies as I know
from many motorcycle and trailer covers how any of this synthetic
stuff seems to get destroyed by the sun? ;-(

http://www.primrose-awnings.co.uk/30...c=def_cat_list

Thanks very much for that David. So these things are reasonably
generic or did you link to those because you know they will fit that
canopy (from experience)?

Cheers, T i m

On 19/06/2016 23:17, T i m wrote:


They definitely don't! If they ever did, you couldn't retract the awning!

I thought there might be something like that but I can't remember
'how' they do work now?

The arms are spring loaded and under torsion, There is a cable inside
the torsion bar that either lets it go out or winds it back in.

Ah, makes sense (and why they have to keep some bend in them).

snip

I'm not sure I could get a good anchorage for something like that into
this Victorian house (with soft 'stock' bricks) on any wall! On an
A.R. aerial I mounted on the back I bolted the bracket *though* the
wall. ;-)


Resin anchors are the answer!

Again, I've seen them mentioned but not used them myself. My worry
(with this place) is that no matter how good an anchor you got on a
brick that it didn't pull the brick out of the wall as the mortar is
mostly sand. ;-(


Ah! Resin anchors don't come out - ever! With enough force the anchor
would remain & pull out the brick. Bear in mind though that the load is
spread over 8 or 12 fixings.
snip

Do you mean one at each end and one in the middle?

Yes. Although a 3m only has one at each end.

I can't see from Tim's pictures but are there *specific* mounting
points on the rear of the canopy frame or are they 'slots'?

I don't know that make, but it varies. With the ones I install
(Primrose) there are 4 types of awning, basic, standard, half cassette &
full cassette.

With the basic, standard & full cassette you have a foot or two either
way, so plenty of play, but with a half cassette there are specific
mounting points so you only have about 10mm tolerance, so they are my
least favourite.

I would have
thought the middle was more difficult to find a good anchorage with?

? No, can't see why?

I'm assuming you are typically putting these things over patio doors
and so the middle (specifically) might be on the soldier course could
be just sat on the front of a Catnic lintel? If it was higher up the
wall then I guess it should be ok.

Normal height is 2.5 metres, so it's well above lintel height. Besides,
the centre bracket is really there to spread the weight & stop the
awning twisting.


snip

Any idea if you can (typically) get replacement canopies as I know
from many motorcycle and trailer covers how any of this synthetic
stuff seems to get destroyed by the sun? ;-(

http://www.primrose-awnings.co.uk/30...c=def_cat_list

Thanks very much for that David. So these things are reasonably
generic or did you link to those because you know they will fit that
canopy (from experience)?

No experience of that canopy, but essentially its a bit of fabric.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:54:02 +0100, David Lang
wrote:

snip

Resin anchors are the answer!

Again, I've seen them mentioned but not used them myself. My worry
(with this place) is that no matter how good an anchor you got on a
brick that it didn't pull the brick out of the wall as the mortar is
mostly sand. ;-(


Ah! Resin anchors don't come out - ever! With enough force the anchor
would remain & pull out the brick.

The latter would be my fear on this house, or pull the brick apart.

Bear in mind though that the load is
spread over 8 or 12 fixings.

Is it always though? On the picture of Tim's awning there looks like
only 4 bolts and therefore (two per side, top and bottom) and ignoring
dynamic loads (wind) most if not all of the weight of the extended
canopy and frame would generate torque that would be transferred into
pure tension on just the top two bolts?

With the awning closed, most of the load will be carried over all 4
bolts via shear.

I predict you could remove the bottom bolts on any of these awnings
and nothing (bad) would happen.

snip

I don't know that make, but it varies. With the ones I install
(Primrose) there are 4 types of awning, basic, standard, half cassette &
full cassette.

With the basic, standard & full cassette you have a foot or two either
way, so plenty of play,

Ok.

but with a half cassette there are specific
mounting points so you only have about 10mm tolerance, so they are my
least favourite.

Understood. ;-)

I would have
thought the middle was more difficult to find a good anchorage with?

? No, can't see why?

I'm assuming you are typically putting these things over patio doors
and so the middle (specifically) might be on the soldier course could
be just sat on the front of a Catnic lintel? If it was higher up the
wall then I guess it should be ok.

Normal height is 2.5 metres, so it's well above lintel height.

Yes, looking back at the videos on the page you linked I could see
they looked quite high.

Besides,
the centre bracket is really there to spread the weight & stop the
awning twisting.

Ok.

snip

Thanks very much for that David. So these things are reasonably
generic or did you link to those because you know they will fit that
canopy (from experience)?

No experience of that canopy, but essentially its a bit of fabric.

Sure, but it's those little 'gotchas' where one system / make requires
a loop / hem sewn into the end to attach it to the roller and one
doesn't etc. Or the one for the '3m' awning is 20mm wider than the
other one for the '3m awning'. ;-(

Interesting stuff so thanks David.

Cheers, T i m

In message , T i m
writes

Thanks very much for that David. So these things are reasonably
generic or did you link to those because you know they will fit that
canopy (from experience)?

No experience of that canopy, but essentially its a bit of fabric.

Sure, but it's those little 'gotchas' where one system / make requires
a loop / hem sewn into the end to attach it to the roller and one
doesn't etc. Or the one for the '3m' awning is 20mm wider than the
other one for the '3m awning'. ;-(

Interesting stuff so thanks David.

My recollection is that this particular one had virtually no use: my
sister being an acquirer rather than a user!

The fringe is permanently exposed to sunlight however.

--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:32:16 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

Thanks very much for that David. So these things are reasonably
generic or did you link to those because you know they will fit that
canopy (from experience)?

No experience of that canopy, but essentially its a bit of fabric.

Sure, but it's those little 'gotchas' where one system / make requires
a loop / hem sewn into the end to attach it to the roller and one
doesn't etc. Or the one for the '3m' awning is 20mm wider than the
other one for the '3m awning'. ;-(

Interesting stuff so thanks David.

My recollection is that this particular one had virtually no use:

That could help (the future life). ;-)

my
sister being an acquirer rather than a user!

Unfortunately I can be like that but not intentionally. Many of the
things I get are generally for good reason and will get used at some
point, it's just they might not get used as often as I may have first
thought / intended. Part of it is the std d-i-y group one in that
'it's good to have plenty of things to play with' g and second is
being prepared for anything that might (predictably) happen (to me or
my family).

Like, I've always wanted one of those folding engine cranes and as I'm
getting older and with daughter with a van, it seemed reasonable to
get one as then I might not 1) hurt myself trying to lift something I
shouldn't and 2) also be able to load / unload stuff from the van
without struggling (like if she'd had something palletised loaded by a
forklift, we could unload it ourselves). I'm also hoping to do an
engine swap on the kitcar soon and there are always machines /
motorbikes that may need support / lifting. ;-)

The fringe is permanently exposed to sunlight however.

Understood.

Again, I was really only asking about the option of replacing the
canopy because if I couldn't (should I ever need to, wind / other
damage even) then it would negate all the efforts 'we' had gone into
getting it down, transporting and getting it back up. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:14:35 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:



What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

I imagine you rush out in your night-gown and wind it back:-)


No ,you get the other half to do it, and don't warn her about the
couple of gallons of rainwater it has collected which will suddenly
pour off.
Only a once off opportunity though.

p.s. Would you think the material would be waterproof (if I wanted to
use it for a bit of temporary rain protection)? If it's std canvas I
think it is waterproof naturally as the fibres swell up when wet (I
think I remember from cotton tents).

Pass again. Shower proof certainly. I would guess at some sort of man
made fibre rather than cotton. Remember rain doesn't always fall
vertically.


I think the greatest use of ours is to dry laundered shirts etc on
hangers hung off the arms on those days when showers are around that
can dampen stuff that is drying well in a gentle breeze.

Occasionaly it is used as intended which was a space outside the shed
to allow work in a larger space both when the shed gets too hot to
work in but like the laundry the job and tools can be protected from
rain unless it is too windy.
Six or seven years old now and the fringe is bleached and tatty and
will soon be removed or replaced, main covering is waterproof unless
I don't fully extend it and get a pool on top which then makes the
material touch an arm.

G.Harman

On 20/06/2016 08:39, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:54:02 +0100, David Lang
wrote:

snip

Resin anchors are the answer!

Again, I've seen them mentioned but not used them myself. My worry
(with this place) is that no matter how good an anchor you got on a
brick that it didn't pull the brick out of the wall as the mortar is
mostly sand. ;-(


Ah! Resin anchors don't come out - ever! With enough force the anchor
would remain & pull out the brick.

The latter would be my fear on this house, or pull the brick apart.

Bear in mind though that the load is
spread over 8 or 12 fixings.

Is it always though? On the picture of Tim's awning there looks like
only 4 bolts and therefore (two per side, top and bottom) and ignoring
dynamic loads (wind) most if not all of the weight of the extended
canopy and frame would generate torque that would be transferred into
pure tension on just the top two bolts?

With the awning closed, most of the load will be carried over all 4
bolts via shear.

I predict you could remove the bottom bolts on any of these awnings
and nothing (bad) would happen.

Like many things it may give you warning that something is wrong as once
the top bolts start to pull out the bottom ones may hold on for a bit.
So you may get time to notice it drooping before it hits you on the
head, but maybe not.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:41:53 +0100, dennis@home
wrote:

snip

I predict you could remove the bottom bolts on any of these awnings
and nothing (bad) would happen.

Like many things it may give you warning that something is wrong as once
the top bolts start to pull out the bottom ones may hold on for a bit.

I think if something happened sufficient to move the top bolts
(assuming they were fastened properly) the bottom of the bracket would
just shear off?

(Cropped from Tim's picture)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5772409/Bracket.jpg

So you may get time to notice it drooping before it hits you on the
head, but maybe not.

You might indeed ... but maybe not. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Did you have (serious) first dibs on the awning Dennis and if so
I'll step back?

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:28:53 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:14:35 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:



What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

I imagine you rush out in your night-gown and wind it back:-)


No ,you get the other half to do it, and don't warn her about the
couple of gallons of rainwater it has collected which will suddenly
pour off.

weg

Only a once off opportunity though.

Yes, like giving her the pressure washer lance ready to wash down the
de-greased engine and saying 'wait till I go and turn the water on
before pulling the trigger ...'. ;-)

snip

I think the greatest use of ours is to dry laundered shirts etc on
hangers hung off the arms on those days when showers are around that
can dampen stuff that is drying well in a gentle breeze.

Sounds like a plan.

Occasionaly it is used as intended which was a space outside the shed
to allow work in a larger space both when the shed gets too hot to
work in but like the laundry the job and tools can be protected from
rain unless it is too windy.

Yes, that has been my thought for quite a while now for exactly the
same reason. Even leaving the door open in the rain means stuff in the
mouth of the garage gets wet (I replaced the up and over with a
personal and bi-fold doors with windows over the top).

Six or seven years old now and the fringe is bleached and tatty and
will soon be removed or replaced, main covering is waterproof unless
I don't fully extend it and get a pool on top which then makes the
material touch an arm.

Understood.

Unfortunately and unlike say it's use on a patio door where the access
would be in the middle (and away from the arms), I believe the arm
would be right over the personal door on my situation. ;-(

I wonder if the fabric could be better waterproofed with one of those
sprays or do you think the contact underneath would case it to leak
under any circumstances?

Cheers, T i m

In message ,
writes
On Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:14:35 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:



What I don't get with any of these canopies is how you would mount
something that could offer so much leverage (simply down to the mass
of the frame and fabric dry, plus the mass of the material when wet
and then wind loads) over such a short bracket?

I imagine you rush out in your night-gown and wind it back:-)


No ,you get the other half to do it, and don't warn her about the
couple of gallons of rainwater it has collected which will suddenly
pour off.
Only a once off opportunity though.

Ah! Cherished moments!

I have told this tale before... when first married our cottage was
bordered by a spinney and nesting Rooks. From the open kitchen window, I
noticed my new wife bending down over the outside gully.
With surprising quickness of thought for those who know me, I grabbed
the dishcloth and squeezed a few drops of water onto the back of her
neck!

Thinking the worst, she staggered into the kitchen, bent double, to find
me convulsed with laughter...
--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:27:10 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

Ah! Cherished moments!

I have told this tale before... when first married our cottage was
bordered by a spinney and nesting Rooks. From the open kitchen window, I
noticed my new wife bending down over the outside gully.
With surprising quickness of thought for those who know me, I grabbed
the dishcloth and squeezed a few drops of water onto the back of her
neck!

Thinking the worst, she staggered into the kitchen, bent double, to find
me convulsed with laughter...

What's it like sleeping on your own in the shed Tim? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In message , T i m
writes
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:27:10 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

Ah! Cherished moments!

I have told this tale before... when first married our cottage was
bordered by a spinney and nesting Rooks. From the open kitchen window, I
noticed my new wife bending down over the outside gully.
With surprising quickness of thought for those who know me, I grabbed
the dishcloth and squeezed a few drops of water onto the back of her
neck!

Thinking the worst, she staggered into the kitchen, bent double, to find
me convulsed with laughter...

What's it like sleeping on your own in the shed Tim? ;-)

46 years ago? She might have forgotten:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On 20/06/2016 11:10, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:41:53 +0100, dennis@home
wrote:

snip

I predict you could remove the bottom bolts on any of these awnings
and nothing (bad) would happen.

Like many things it may give you warning that something is wrong as once
the top bolts start to pull out the bottom ones may hold on for a bit.

I think if something happened sufficient to move the top bolts
(assuming they were fastened properly) the bottom of the bracket would
just shear off?

(Cropped from Tim's picture)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5772409/Bracket.jpg

You need the bottom fixing on that bracket to stop the whole thing
lifting in the wind.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:44:08 +0100, dennis@home
wrote:

On 20/06/2016 11:10, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:41:53 +0100, dennis@home
wrote:

snip

I predict you could remove the bottom bolts on any of these awnings
and nothing (bad) would happen.

Like many things it may give you warning that something is wrong as once
the top bolts start to pull out the bottom ones may hold on for a bit.

I think if something happened sufficient to move the top bolts
(assuming they were fastened properly) the bottom of the bracket would
just shear off?

(Cropped from Tim's picture)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5772409/Bracket.jpg

You need the bottom fixing on that bracket to stop the whole thing
lifting in the wind.


Of course ... and why I said "On the picture of Tim's awning there
looks like only 4 bolts and therefore (two per side, top and bottom)
and ignoring dynamic loads (wind) most if not all of the weight of the
extended canopy and frame would generate torque that would be
transferred into pure tension on just the top two bolts?". ;-)

My point is that that awning mounts like those 'bracktless' shelves
where it's mostly the sheer strength of the fastenings that hold the
thing in place, rather using the advantages of long levers (spreading
the load over a longer length) as with more typical shelf brackets /
slotted uprights etc.

e.g. If you 'hung' a 6' length of slotted steel upright to the wall
with one screw at the top and bolted the awning to the middle of that,
the loads on that top fastening would be far far less that when using
the std (length) brackets we see he

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5772409/Bracket.jpg

If Tim doesn't need the 75mm box sections, once he has cut them off at
the ground, I could mount the awning as it is now and just hold them
back against the front of the garage with them standing on the ground
and with one bolt near the top of each ... and all the bolts would
then be doing is taking the horizontal load of the awning and uprights
and they would be far (far) less than the top bolt on the existing
brackets.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:01:58 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:27:10 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

Ah! Cherished moments!

I have told this tale before... when first married our cottage was
bordered by a spinney and nesting Rooks. From the open kitchen window, I
noticed my new wife bending down over the outside gully.
With surprising quickness of thought for those who know me, I grabbed
the dishcloth and squeezed a few drops of water onto the back of her
neck!

Thinking the worst, she staggered into the kitchen, bent double, to find
me convulsed with laughter...

What's it like sleeping on your own in the shed Tim? ;-)

46 years ago? She might have forgotten:-)


Let's hope eh (and she doesn't read this)? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Did you get my reply this morning via PM as if not it might be in
your spam filter?

In message , T i m
writes
If Tim doesn't need the 75mm box sections, once he has cut them off at
the ground, I could mount the awning as it is now and just hold them
back against the front of the garage with them standing on the ground
and with one bolt near the top of each ... and all the bolts would
then be doing is taking the horizontal load of the awning and uprights
and they would be far (far) less than the top bolt on the existing
brackets.

Cut off is the fall back position. I'll try splitting the supporting
pads first. Need to be a bit cautious as the soil pipe runs nearby.

--
Tim Lamb

In message , T i m
writes
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:01:58 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:27:10 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

Ah! Cherished moments!

I have told this tale before... when first married our cottage was
bordered by a spinney and nesting Rooks. From the open kitchen window, I
noticed my new wife bending down over the outside gully.
With surprising quickness of thought for those who know me, I grabbed
the dishcloth and squeezed a few drops of water onto the back of her
neck!

Thinking the worst, she staggered into the kitchen, bent double, to find
me convulsed with laughter...

What's it like sleeping on your own in the shed Tim? ;-)

46 years ago? She might have forgotten:-)


Let's hope eh (and she doesn't read this)? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Did you get my reply this morning via PM as if not it might be in
your spam filter?

Yes. I was waiting for the rain to stop so I could measure the mushroom
and take a photo of a twig I have lying about:-)

Here http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

About 400mm high and 250mm wide. The twig is about 3'0" :-)

--
Tim Lamb

On 20/06/16 18:11, Tim Lamb wrote:
Here http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

About 400mm high and 250mm wide. The twig is about 3'0" :-)
Nothing but a blank page with adverts.


Photobucket never shows images for me




--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:11:54 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

p.s. Did you get my reply this morning via PM as if not it might be in
your spam filter?

Yes. I was waiting for the rain to stop so I could measure the mushroom
and take a photo of a twig I have lying about:-)

Ah, ok, np. ;-)

Here http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

About 400mm high and 250mm wide.

Hmm, I think she may have something like that in stock (unpainted of
course)?


The twig is about 3'0" :-)

Woah. Now that would carve up into something nice ...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...9/Seahorse.jpg

or a bench maybe, or are you saving it for something more 'worthy' of
something that size, to plank up etc?

What wood is it OOI?

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:17:44 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/06/16 18:11, Tim Lamb wrote:
Here http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

About 400mm high and 250mm wide. The twig is about 3'0" :-)

Nothing but a blank page with adverts.

I suggest you use an OS that is compatible with the rest of the world
as even XP shows the images fine here?

Photobucket never shows images for me

See above.

Makes you wonder what else you are missing out on not being
'compatible'. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 20/06/16 18:11, Tim Lamb wrote:
Here http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

About 400mm high and 250mm wide. The twig is about 3'0" :-)
Nothing but a blank page with adverts.


Photobucket never shows images for me

Try Windows XP:-)

--
Tim Lamb

In message , T i m
writes
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:11:54 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

p.s. Did you get my reply this morning via PM as if not it might be in
your spam filter?

Yes. I was waiting for the rain to stop so I could measure the mushroom
and take a photo of a twig I have lying about:-)

Ah, ok, np. ;-)

Here http://s828.photobucket.com/user/TimLamb/library/

About 400mm high and 250mm wide.

Hmm, I think she may have something like that in stock (unpainted of
course)?

Excellent.


The twig is about 3'0" :-)

Woah. Now that would carve up into something nice ...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...9/Seahorse.jpg

Very nice. Is that Scotland?

or a bench maybe, or are you saving it for something more 'worthy' of
something that size, to plank up etc?

What wood is it OOI?

Oak. I was going to ring it for firewood but we probably won't have a
log burner after the move. Field edge tree so I left the rest in the
ground. Prolly got radial splits by now.

--
Tim Lamb