In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 31/05/2016 16:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
On 31/05/2016 15:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
The items they sell cheap tend to be stuff that isn't built by hand.
We can in general compete with china on stuff that is built by robots
(as long as the unions aren't demanding one robot + one man which they
have been known to do).

And bosses at one time could hang their slaves. But things have
changed a bit since then.


But we didn't lose stuff like motorcycle manufacturing and car
manufacturing because of hanging slaves.

We lost both because those industries didn't invest enough in decent
new product. They thought everyone would keep on buying BSA or MG just
because of the name. And they were very wrong.


Its difficult to invest in better manufacturing when the unions insist
on the same manning levels on a machine that needs no manning.

Why would you need super new machinery to make the same old stuff?

But carry on blaming the unions or the workforce. Much easier than looking
for the true reasons.

Have you ever wondered why a company the size of BL went cap in hand to
Honda to use their designs? Still built here, of course. The logical thing
to do - if they had some world beating cars - would have been to get them
made elsewhere. Perhaps at the Honda factory in Japan ;-)

It's very typical of much of the UK manufacturing industry. In good times
give all the profits to the shareholders. In bad times expect the
government to bail them out. When sensible businesses invest in the future.

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 31/05/2016 11:11, Timothy Murphy wrote:
after Brexit,
as the pound will plunge against the dollar.

After you with that crystal ball.

dennis@home wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Fantasy. There is no uncertainty, it is completely clear that Britain
is free to trade with anyone it likes under the WTO rules if the EU
is actually stupid enough to demand something that Britain does
not find acceptable in a trade agreement and will do fine that way.

The UK is already free to trade with anyone, however
it won't get any contracts with the EU countries for
anything they can source internally if we exit.

How odd that all of the USA, Canada, Japan, China,
Australia, New Zealand etc etc etc all do that fine.

And Britain will clearly be able to get contracts with Airbus
on the supply of Airbus components and engines even if
the EU is actually stupid enough to demand something
in a trade agreement that Britain is not prepared to accept
like complete freedom of movement of people with the EU.

Timothy Murphy wrote
Martin Barclay wrote

And /if/ "the pound will plunge against the dollar" UK made goods will
become more attractive abroad. That's good for UK manufacturing! :-)

That is true.
But the standard of living in the UK will fall.

BULL**** given that Britain will be able to
get cheaper imports from other than the EU.

And the pound won't plunge anyway, essentially because
Britain will do fine outside the EU even if the EU chooses
to refuse to have a trade agreement unless it includes free
movement of people with the EU. And given that that is
true of just THREE of these, have fun explaining why they
would insist on that with Britain given that Britain is free to
make an obscene gesture in the general direction of the EU
and use the WTO rules any time it likes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 31/05/2016 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/05/16 13:02, dennis@home wrote:
On 31/05/2016 10:54, Rod Speed wrote:

Fantasy. There is no uncertainty, it is completely clear that Britain
is free to trade with anyone it likes under the WTO rules if the EU
is actually stupid enough to demand something that Britain does
not find acceptable in a trade agreement and will do fine that way.
The euro would also fall against the dollar, but not by so much.

The UK is already free to trade with anyone, however *it won't get any
contracts with the EU countries* for anything they can source internally
if we exit.


So you are admitting that the EU is a juvenile dog in the manger
protectionist organisation that is inward looking and unable to compete
in world markets on equal terms, then, dennis?

Why would you want to be part of it?




I haven't said what I will vote.
However you are having a strong influence.

More fool you. It makes absolutely no sense
whatever to be deciding how you will vote based
on who is for or against the two alternatives.

dennis@home wrote
Martin Barclay wrote

And /if/ "the pound will plunge against the dollar" UK made goods will
become more attractive abroad. That's good for UK manufacturing! :-)

Only if we don't have to pay more for the stuff to make them.

That is only a small part of the cost with most stuff.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
On 31/05/2016 15:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
The items they sell cheap tend to be stuff that isn't built by hand.
We can in general compete with china on stuff that is built by robots
(as long as the unions aren't demanding one robot + one man which they
have been known to do).

And bosses at one time could hang their slaves. But things have
changed a bit since then.


But we didn't lose stuff like motorcycle manufacturing
and car manufacturing because of hanging slaves.

We lost both because those industries didn't
invest enough in decent new product.

Nope, both were lost because others designed better products
and had much better quality control, particularly with cars.

They thought everyone would keep on
buying BSA or MG just because of the name.

They always did produce **** which was never
a patch on what the opposition produced.

MG was only ever a tiny part of the cars manufactured.

And they were very wrong.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 31/05/2016 16:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
On 31/05/2016 15:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
The items they sell cheap tend to be stuff that isn't built by hand.
We can in general compete with china on stuff that is built by
robots
(as long as the unions aren't demanding one robot + one man which
they
have been known to do).

And bosses at one time could hang their slaves. But things have
changed a bit since then.


But we didn't lose stuff like motorcycle manufacturing and car
manufacturing because of hanging slaves.

We lost both because those industries didn't invest enough in decent
new product. They thought everyone would keep on buying BSA or MG just
because of the name. And they were very wrong.


Its difficult to invest in better manufacturing when the unions insist
on the same manning levels on a machine that needs no manning.

Why would you need super new machinery to make the same old stuff?

Because that is what your competition is using and if you keep using
the same old machinery, you can't hope to compete with them.

But carry on blaming the unions or the workforce.

Because that was a large part of the problem with the British car industry.

Much easier than looking for the true reasons.

You wouldn’t know what the true reasons were if they bit you on your lard
arse.

Have you ever wondered why a company the size of BL went cap
in hand to Honda to use their designs? Still built here, of course.

Because they weren't capable of designing the cars
themselves that were anything like as well designed.

The only thing they ever managed was the basic body
config of the mini that was something radically different,
and completely ****ed up the design of the mechanical
bits because they didn’t have a ****ing clue. Same with MG.

The logical thing to do - if they had some world beating cars

They never did.

- would have been to get them made elsewhere.
Perhaps at the Honda factory in Japan ;-)

They did in fact do that very early on before the Jap
industry had a clue and designed much better cars that
went on to leave the crap Britain produced for dead.

And yes, there were plenty of crap Jap cars too.

It's very typical of much of the UK manufacturing industry.
In good times give all the profits to the shareholders.
In bad times expect the government to bail them out.
When sensible businesses invest in the future.

It wasn’t just a lack of investment, the real problem
was crap cars that hardly anyone was ever silly
enough to buy once the Japs got their act into gear.

Just as true now with Korea.

On Tue, 31 May 2016 17:39:02 +0100, soup wrote:

On 31/05/2016 11:11, Timothy Murphy wrote:
after Brexit,
as the pound will plunge against the dollar.

After you with that crystal ball.

Indeed.
In any case, it will perhaps still be stronger than the euro, as so many
eurozone countries have problems.

--
The New European Soviet - Mikhail Gorbachev
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/globa.../soviet-eu.htm

in 1489756 20160531 123729 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/05/16 10:09, Timothy Murphy wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

What will happen to Lidl & Aldi prices if we leave the EU? ;-)

Well they should fall as the Euro tanks.

The pound would plunge immediately after Brexit, due to uncertainty.
The euro would also fall against the dollar, but not by so much.

The Euro would plunge immediately after Brexit, due to uncertainty.
The pound would surge against the dollar, but not by so much.

More wishful thinking ...

Rod Speed wrote:

And /if/ "the pound will plunge against the dollar" UK made goods will
become more attractive abroad. That's good for UK manufacturing! :-)

That is true.
But the standard of living in the UK will fall.

BULL**** given that Britain will be able to
get cheaper imports from other than the EU.

The UK imports more per head than most countries.
Hence the cost of living inevitably rises if the currency falls.

And the pound won't plunge anyway, essentially because
Britain will do fine outside the EU

Even if that were true the pound would fall against the dollar
immediately after Brexit.
Currencies always fall if there is uncertainty about the country's economy,
and there would be uncertainty about the UK economy
since it would take time to make trade deals.

It is true that in the medium term the currency might recover.
Or it might not.
But it is certain that in the short term it would fall.


--
Timothy Murphy
gayleard /at/ eircom.net
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin

On 01/06/16 07:52, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1489756 20160531 123729 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/05/16 10:09, Timothy Murphy wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

What will happen to Lidl & Aldi prices if we leave the EU? ;-)

Well they should fall as the Euro tanks.

The pound would plunge immediately after Brexit, due to uncertainty.
The euro would also fall against the dollar, but not by so much.

The Euro would plunge immediately after Brexit, due to uncertainty.
The pound would surge against the dollar, but not by so much.

More wishful thinking ...

To which post are you referring?


--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 01/06/16 09:34, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:

And /if/ "the pound will plunge against the dollar" UK made goods will
become more attractive abroad. That's good for UK manufacturing! :-)

That is true.
But the standard of living in the UK will fall.

BULL**** given that Britain will be able to
get cheaper imports from other than the EU.

The UK imports more per head than most countries.
Hence the cost of living inevitably rises if the currency falls.

And the pound won't plunge anyway, essentially because
Britain will do fine outside the EU

Even if that were true the pound would fall against the dollar
immediately after Brexit.
Currencies always fall if there is uncertainty about the country's economy,
and there would be uncertainty about the UK economy
since it would take time to make trade deals.


We dont need trade deals to trade.

It is true that in the medium term the currency might recover.
Or it might not.
But it is certain that in the short term it would fall.


It is not. It is lilely that the Euro would fall, since without Britain
the EU would have no chance of balancing its books ever.



--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

Muddymike wrote:
On 31/05/2016 11:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Timothy Murphy wrote:
There is nothing to prevent Lidl purchasing goods from China now -
which I'm sure it does do anyway.

It's a good point. Most of the Lidl tools are marked as being of German
origin - including this knife. Even on the knife itself.

And their power tools - or rather those I've checked on.

Now given they seem to be as good as any at the budget end and no more
expensive, either they're not made in Germany, or it is possible to
compete with the Chinese with such things.


I have no experience of supplying them with power tools but I do know
they they (and Aldi) buy stationery products from UK suppliers.

Mike

YMMV, but I find these staionery products generally crap.

Timothy Murphy wrote:
Capitol wrote:


What will happen to Lidl& Aldi prices if we leave the EU? ;-)


They will come down as they are sourcing goods from China and food
prices are lower in the world market than in the EU.

There is nothing to prevent Lidl purchasing goods from China now -
which I'm sure it does do anyway.
The price of these goods will go up sharply after Brexit,
as the pound will plunge against the dollar.


Any effect will take some time to appear. Nothing much will
happen as the traders are all hedging their positions. That's not my
opinion by the way, it's the reports I'm getting from Canary Wharf
traders. As it looks increasingly likely that Trump will be the next US
president, the city traders are in for very big bonuses if they guess
right over the next year!

Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Most of the Lidl tools are marked as being of German origin -
including this knife.

Which could just mean they order a box of blades from China and a box
of handles from India and screw them together in Germany

Moist bigger tools IME are coming from China. Certainly the battery
chargers and sat navs are. Product support is however coming from the UK
and Germany.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In articlejZSdncHZPZ0L7NDKnZ2dnUU78KXNnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk,
wrote:

On 31/05/2016 11:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In ,
Timothy wrote:

There is nothing to prevent Lidl purchasing goods from China now -
which I'm sure it does do anyway.

It's a good point. Most of the Lidl tools are marked as being of German
origin - including this knife. Even on the knife itself.

And their power tools - or rather those I've checked on.

Now given they seem to be as good as any at the budget end and no more
expensive, either they're not made in Germany, or it is possible to
compete with the Chinese with such things.



I have no experience of supplying them with power tools but I do know
they they (and Aldi) buy stationery products from UK suppliers.

Interesting. They can then source and sell UK made products etc in the UK
at a good price - but the general view is 'we' can't compete with the low
labour rates and lack of regulations and so on the far east benefits from.


We can only compete on automated production products where
labour/material and transport costs are less important or on products
like Jaguar etc where there is a Label attraction. The services industry
is interesting as it is much more creative for some reason which allows
it to compete world wide. Dave mutters about the number of "media"
graduates, which I can understand, but this over supply is having a very
good effect on selling high(low) quality advertising and film production
products abroad. It's a bit like the F1 car businesses, the UK is much
more successful that you would expect.

soup wrote:
On 31/05/2016 11:11, Timothy Murphy wrote:
after Brexit,
as the pound will plunge against the dollar.

After you with that crystal ball.

Will he please lend it to the treasury first.

On 01/06/16 10:48, Capitol wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In articlejZSdncHZPZ0L7NDKnZ2dnUU78KXNnZ2d@brightvie w.co.uk,
wrote:
On 31/05/2016 11:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Timothy wrote:
There is nothing to prevent Lidl purchasing goods from China now -
which I'm sure it does do anyway.
It's a good point. Most of the Lidl tools are marked as being of German
origin - including this knife. Even on the knife itself.

And their power tools - or rather those I've checked on.

Now given they seem to be as good as any at the budget end and no more
expensive, either they're not made in Germany, or it is possible to
compete with the Chinese with such things.

I have no experience of supplying them with power tools but I do know
they they (and Aldi) buy stationery products from UK suppliers.
Interesting. They can then source and sell UK made products etc in the UK
at a good price - but the general view is 'we' can't compete with the low
labour rates and lack of regulations and so on the far east benefits
from.

We can only compete on automated production products where
labour/material and transport costs are less important or on products
like Jaguar etc where there is a Label attraction. The services industry
is interesting as it is much more creative for some reason which allows
it to compete world wide. Dave mutters about the number of "media"
graduates, which I can understand, but this over supply is having a very
good effect on selling high(low) quality advertising and film production
products abroad. It's a bit like the F1 car businesses, the UK is much
more successful that you would expect.

Exactly. It's only traditional areas of manufacturing where Unions once
led sway that have died. Specialist stuff lives on.

I wouldn't be too optimistic about media and advertising though - the
lefty****s have taken over Equity and now ethnic origin and victim
status, and sexual orientation are far far more important in casting
than the actual ability to act, as anyone can see from the generally
wooden performances of almost all actors these days.



--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

Timothy Murphy wrote
Rod Speed wrote

And /if/ "the pound will plunge against the dollar" UK made goods will
become more attractive abroad. That's good for UK manufacturing! :-)

That is true.
But the standard of living in the UK will fall.

BULL**** given that Britain will be able to
get cheaper imports from other than the EU.

The UK imports more per head than most countries.

Bull****.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ies_by_imports

And even if that was true, and it isn't, when the imports
are cheaper because Britain is outside the EU and so
can import what it imports from the cheapest sources
available, that means a lower cost of living.

Hence the cost of living inevitably rises if the currency falls.

You haven't either established that the currency will fall relative
to the currency of the countrys Britain would import from when
it is free to import from anywhere it likes, or that even if it did,
that the currency would fall more than the cost of imports does.

And the pound won't plunge anyway, essentially
because Britain will do fine outside the EU

Even if that were true the pound would fall
against the dollar immediately after Brexit.

Easy to claim and you previously claimed it would PLUNGE, too.

Currencies always fall if there is uncertainty about the country's
economy,

There would be no uncertainty about
Britain's economy if it left the EU.

and there would be uncertainty about the UK economy
since it would take time to make trade deals.

Britain is free to trade under the WTO rules without any trade deals.

It is true that in the medium term the currency might recover.
Or it might not.

The currency isnt going to PLUNGE as you previously lied.

But it is certain that in the short term it would fall.

BULL****.

"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
Timothy Murphy wrote:
Capitol wrote:


What will happen to Lidl& Aldi prices if we leave the EU? ;-)


They will come down as they are sourcing goods from China and food
prices are lower in the world market than in the EU.

There is nothing to prevent Lidl purchasing goods from China now -
which I'm sure it does do anyway.
The price of these goods will go up sharply after Brexit,
as the pound will plunge against the dollar.


Any effect will take some time to appear. Nothing much will happen
as the traders are all hedging their positions. That's not my opinion by
the way, it's the reports I'm getting from Canary Wharf traders. As it
looks increasingly likely that Trump will be the next US president,

Not a chance, they will end up with Hitlary instead, you watch.

the city traders are in for very big bonuses if they guess right over the
next year!

On 01/06/2016 10:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It is not. It is lilely that the Euro would fall, since without Britain
the EU would have no chance of balancing its books ever.




Just because the euro falls doesn't mean sterling will not also fall.
The most likely scenario is that they will both fall and that it will
affect the UK more as we import more.

On 01/06/16 12:40, dennis@home wrote:
On 01/06/2016 10:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

It is not. It is lilely that the Euro would fall, since without Britain
the EU would have no chance of balancing its books ever.




Just because the euro falls doesn't mean sterling will not also fall.
The most likely scenario is that they will both fall and that it will
affect the UK more as we import more.

says the man with a 'degree in pharmacology and needlework'...


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

dennis@home wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

It is not. It is lilely that the Euro would fall, since without Britain
the EU would have no chance of balancing its books ever.

Just because the euro falls doesn't mean sterling will not also fall.

True, but there is no reason why the pound should
fall much given that Britain would be able to import
stuff from wherever it is cheapest, unlike now.

The most likely scenario is that they will both fall

Not by much tho with the pound.

and that it will affect the UK more as we import more.

But would be able to import from where the imports are cheapest,
unlike currently, so the effect might well even be positive. Particularly
as the pound falling a bit would help the exports of what Britain does
still export like aircraft engines for heavys etc.

Capitol Wrote in message:

Moist bigger tools IME are coming from China.

Fnarr fnarr
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

jim wrote:
Wrote in message:


Moist bigger tools IME are coming from China.

Fnarr fnarr

I just bought their hoist today for 35 pounds. Last offer I recall
was 50. I used a chain hoist to pull a car into and out of the garage
(which has a small ramped entrance) a couple of weeks ago, it did the
job but took a long time, so I hope this will be an easier option.

Capitol Wrote in message:
jim wrote:
Wrote in message:


Moist bigger tools IME are coming from China.

Fnarr fnarr

I just bought their hoist today for 35 pounds. Last offer I recall
was 50. I used a chain hoist to pull a car into and out of the garage
(which has a small ramped entrance) a couple of weeks ago, it did the
job but took a long time, so I hope this will be an easier option.


Is that the 240v elec one with the wired remote? If so good price...

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

jim wrote:
Wrote in message:

jim wrote:

Wrote in message:



Moist bigger tools IME are coming from China.


Fnarr fnarr


I just bought their hoist today for 35 pounds. Last offer I recall
was 50. I used a chain hoist to pull a car into and out of the garage
(which has a small ramped entrance) a couple of weeks ago, it did the
job but took a long time, so I hope this will be an easier option.


Is that the 240v elec one with the wired remote? If so good price...


Yes.