In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 12:01, Robin wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

snip straw man argument

But it seems like you're rather typical of many here. Any idea or
proposal from the left is bad, and any from the right good. The usual
black and white rubbish.

As attempts to play the man rather than the ball go, I have to say you
ain't no Norman Hunter.

Plowperson is fully committed to the Cause, with all the passion that a
loser can summon.

Labour, is for losers. It's that simple.

And you are in good company denying any form of climate change caused by
man. In Donald Trump. But I'm sure you love him as much as Farage.
Of course it should be obvious clowns stick together.

--
*It's this dirty because I washed it with your wife's knickers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/03/16 13:17, wrote:
Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in?

Would be if they had one, or it meant anything.


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

In article ,
wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
On 29/02/2016 17:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Had a cold call from someone claiming to be from EDF offering me a
smart meter.

I find that reading my meters once a month and plotting the readings
in Excel tells me all I want to know.

Funnily enough, had the meter reader round this morning and asked what
her idea of the benefits of a smart meter were. Apparently they let
you see what's using the electric so that, if it's too expensive, you
know to turn it off again...

... but they don't do they? They can't "let you see what's using the
electric[ity]", all they can do is show your total consumption.

Many moons ago they replaced my old mechanical gas meter with an
electronic one. Asked if they could connect it to my phone line too, which
I refused. A few years later, they changed it back to a mechanical one.
Seems the batteries in the electronic ones were failing 'early'. No real
surprise there...

All those meters are in my cellar. Mounted sideways, so it is awkward to
read. If it was swung round 90 degrees, it could be easily read from the
cellar steps. Each time it's replaced I ask for this to be done. But too
much trouble. They would move it outside, though.

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:17, wrote:
Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in?

Would be if they had one, or it meant anything.

It's a legal requirement in the UK. Though it may not tell you the
*actual* consumption now I come to think about it, just the maximum.

--
Chris Green
·

In article ,
wrote:
At least, that works in my mind for obvious things like kettles and
heaters. Washing machines are a bit of a ponder as they draw variable
amounts of current - but perhaps if you set a floor so that only things
over, say, 1kW are logged then the motor drops out as noise.

So you rush back and forth looking at the meter reading while you turn
things on and off? Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in? ... and anyway there will be things
turning themselves on and off which will mask the changes you're
trying to see won't there?

Well, quite. Don't most people have enough sense to switch things off when
not in use? Or perhaps the sound of an empty tumble drier in use gives
them company. ;-)

If you were on a tariff where you got cheaper electricity at particular
times, might be worth doing the washing etc then. But you don't need a
fancy meter for that.
But few would be willing to wait until 2 am for that cup of tea. ;-)

--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:17, wrote:
Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in?

Would be if they had one, or it meant anything.

Doesn't surprise me you don't know what a watt is. Or able to translate
that figure into running costs.

Perhaps what we need is everything rated in Rees-Turnip units. Specially
for those who can't do simple mathematics.

--
*Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Had a cold call from someone claiming to be from EDF offering me a smart
meter.
I've no real view on whether I want one or not. He tried to 'sell' it by
saying it did a reading automatically and sent it via its phone link. I
said it was no hardship for me to read my meter as it's very accessible.

He then said that my reading was only an estimate, and the smart one
would
be much more reliable. Asked him to explain, and of course he couldn't...

A cold call? Why would anyone listen?

Because sometimes it does make you aware of
an offer worth taking advantage of, particularly
with those who dont continuously analyse who
is offering the best value product.

It only encourages them. If no-one
listened, there wouldn't be any cold calls.

And if pig flew, we'd have carry umbrellas at all times.

On 01/03/16 13:53, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:17, wrote:
Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in?

Would be if they had one, or it meant anything.

It's a legal requirement in the UK. Though it may not tell you the
*actual* consumption now I come to think about it, just the maximum.

Exactly.

Do you from cold turn on ALL the rings on a cooker, and the oven and grills?

And how does that help in working out how much electricity is used
simmering a stew?



--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 29/02/2016 22:58, Roger Mills wrote:

Who said anything about one reading per month? I know *I* did in
relation to reading my dumb meters - but, AIUI, a smart meter can
capture readings at very frequent intervals.

Surely if you have a smart meter, all you have to do to fool the burglars
who might read it while you are away is to leave on a fire or cooker on a
time-switch, so that your consumption pattern makes it look as if your
home is still occupied. That won't save much energy, indeed it might use
rather more, but that's beside the point.

I don't believe that smart meters will much difference to consumption, but
they surely save money on salaries of meter readers, and make it much
easier for the energy companies to introduce variable pricing depending on
demand. I will resiste having one as long as I can.

I won't as long as it doesn’t cost me any more for peak power
and allows me to do the high power stuff at a time when the
electricity supplier is happy to sell me the electricity at a much
lower cost because that allows them to load balance much better.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:53, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:17, wrote:
Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in?

Would be if they had one, or it meant anything.

It's a legal requirement in the UK. Though it may not tell you the
*actual* consumption now I come to think about it, just the maximum.

Exactly.

Do you from cold turn on ALL the rings on a cooker, and the oven and
grills?

Well, if you simply divided the number of rings and ovens etc into the
total you'd be closer to the true amount for each - rather than just
whining about not understanding such things.

And how does that help in working out how much electricity is used
simmering a stew?

If you knew the exact amount it would help you decide on whether to cook
or get a takeaway?

--
*I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:53, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:17, wrote:
Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in?

Would be if they had one, or it meant anything.

It's a legal requirement in the UK. Though it may not tell you the
*actual* consumption now I come to think about it, just the maximum.

Exactly.

Do you from cold turn on ALL the rings on a cooker, and the oven and grills?

And how does that help in working out how much electricity is used
simmering a stew?

About as much as a smart meter will help! :-)

--
Chris Green
·

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
At least, that works in my mind for obvious things like kettles and
heaters. Washing machines are a bit of a ponder as they draw variable
amounts of current - but perhaps if you set a floor so that only things
over, say, 1kW are logged then the motor drops out as noise.

So you rush back and forth looking at the meter reading while you turn
things on and off? Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in? ... and anyway there will be things
turning themselves on and off which will mask the changes you're
trying to see won't there?

Well, quite. Don't most people have enough sense to switch things off when
not in use? Or perhaps the sound of an empty tumble drier in use gives
them company. ;-)

Immersion heaters are very rarely turned off and will cycle at random.
Similarly lots of 'convection' fires have a thermostat and cycle on
and off. Then there's things like computers, motors in anything, that
will take varying amounts of power.

--
Chris Green
·

In article ,
wrote:
Well, quite. Don't most people have enough sense to switch things off
when not in use? Or perhaps the sound of an empty tumble drier in use
gives them company. ;-)

Immersion heaters are very rarely turned off and will cycle at random.

So will a gas boiler heating a water store. However, with a well insulated
cylinder, that will hopefully be a small waste compared to the cost of
heating the water used. If it is a large percentage, might be better to
change the way you use hot water.

Similarly lots of 'convection' fires have a thermostat and cycle on
and off.

As I'd hope would all room heaters.

Then there's things like computers, motors in anything, that
will take varying amounts of power.

They will, but it's generally things which heat which use the most
electricity - and by a pretty wide margin.

Presumably with something like a Hoover, you'd only have it switched on
for the minimum time needed to do the job?

Computers are more of a grey area. Some leave them switched on at all
times. So if their time is so valuable they can't wait for it to boot,
they'll just have to pay for that convenience.

And if people are so afraid of the dark they have to have all lights on at
all times, a smart meter isn't going to help.

--
*Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
At least, that works in my mind for obvious things like kettles and
heaters. Washing machines are a bit of a ponder as they draw variable
amounts of current - but perhaps if you set a floor so that only things
over, say, 1kW are logged then the motor drops out as noise.

So you rush back and forth looking at the meter reading while you turn
things on and off? Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in? ... and anyway there will be things
turning themselves on and off which will mask the changes you're
trying to see won't there?

Well, quite. Don't most people have enough sense to switch things off when
not in use? Or perhaps the sound of an empty tumble drier in use gives
them company. ;-)

If you were on a tariff where you got cheaper electricity at particular
times, might be worth doing the washing etc then. But you don't need a
fancy meter for that.

You do need a meter than keeps track of what time of day the power was used.

But few would be willing to wait until 2 am for that cup of tea. ;-)

But plenty would do the clothes drying at night.

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 29/02/2016 22:58, Roger Mills wrote:

Who said anything about one reading per month? I know *I* did in
relation to reading my dumb meters - but, AIUI, a smart meter can
capture readings at very frequent intervals.

Surely if you have a smart meter, all you have to do to fool the burglars
who might read it while you are away is to leave on a fire or cooker on a
time-switch, so that your consumption pattern makes it look as if your
home is still occupied.


Just to drift slightly.

One of my customers claim to fame was that he got arrested breaking into
Emlyn Hughes house and he was caught because Emlyn was in the house when he
broke in. This came as a surprise to my customer as he had waited until "A
Question of Sport" had just started on the TV before breaking into the house
and he thought that the house would be empty.



--
Adam

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:53, wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/03/16 13:17, wrote:
Isn't it easier simply to read the rating plate on
whatever you're interested in?

Would be if they had one, or it meant anything.

It's a legal requirement in the UK. Though it may not tell you the
*actual* consumption now I come to think about it, just the maximum.

Exactly.

Do you from cold turn on ALL the rings on a cooker, and the oven and
grills?

Well, if you simply divided the number of rings and ovens etc into the
total you'd be closer to the true amount for each - rather than just
whining about not understanding such things.

And how does that help in working out how much electricity is used
simmering a stew?

If you knew the exact amount it would help you decide on whether to cook
or get a takeaway?

It might well tell you that you are better off doing the rolling
boil for the marmalade etc on the smaller element if that is
powerful enough to do that with the stock pot you are using etc.

In message , Brian Gaff
writes
According to EDF, they have a dedicated team fitting themfor free in various
parts of the country. They are evolving all the time. I was told that at the
moment the current device cannot speak or be used by the blind, but this
they hope will change. Priority service users are thus not having them
fitted at the moment unless they want one, but only in the areas they
mentioned to me.

Free in the sense that they are not sending you an invoice for doing it,
but you (and every one else) ends up paying for it through their bill.


Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "diy" with "news" and reverse the domain

If you are reading this from a web interface eg DIY Banter,
DIY Forum or Google Groups, please be aware this is NOT a forum, and
you are merely using a web portal to a USENET group. Many people block
posters coming from web portals due to perceieved SPAM or inaneness.
For a better method of access, please see:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On 01/03/2016 15:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Do you from cold turn on ALL the rings on a cooker, and the oven and
grills?

I tend to do that about once a week when i cook Sunday dinner, well
maybe not the grill.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
If you knew the exact amount it would help you decide on whether to cook
or get a takeaway?

It might well tell you that you are better off doing the rolling
boil for the marmalade etc on the smaller element if that is
powerful enough to do that with the stock pot you are using etc.

It's rather sad you have to be so concerned about the energy used for
cooking. Do you have to roam the outback gathering twigs to do it?

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

If you knew the exact amount it would help you
decide on whether to cook or get a takeaway?

It might well tell you that you are better off doing the rolling
boil for the marmalade etc on the smaller element if that is
powerful enough to do that with the stock pot you are using etc.

It's rather sad you have to be so concerned about the energy used for
cooking.

I'm not. That's because I have ended up in retirement
very well off indeed, so well off I haven't bothered to do
the paperwork that would save me about $1K a year with
free car rego and driver's license, much cheaper meds,
4 free trips a year within the state and as many as I like
for quite literally just $2.50 a trip no matter how long it is.

On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:31:50 +0000, Clive Page wrote:

Surely if you have a smart meter, all you have to do to fool the
burglars who might read it while you are away is to leave on a fire or
cooker on a time-switch, so that your consumption pattern makes it look
as if your home is still occupied.

Not that simple, base load is generally higher when a place has
active (ie not tucked up in bed) people in it.

I don't believe that smart meters will much difference to consumption,

There is a certain novelty in having a visible realtime display of
consumption. One that has a plot of consumption over say the last 6
hours would be better as that will show things like coffee machines
or kettles with a "keep warm" feature or even just the iron left on.

but they surely save money on salaries of meter readers,

Not until a significant percentage of people have smart meters. Even
then I have my doubts as in stead of the meter reader being able to
read a meter say every five minutes the wider distribution means he
can now only read a meter every ten minutes.

and make it much easier for the energy companies to introduce variable
pricing depending on demand.

Do any of the "smart" meters support that and what exactly do you
mean?

1) Have the rate charged vary according to national demand but the
consumer doesn't know the price at any given moment so can't manually
adjust their consumption.

2) Have the rate charged vary according to national demand but the
consumer does know the price and can manually adjust their
consumption.

3) Have the rate charged vary according to national demand but the
consumer doesn't need to know the price as the meter can talk to
devices in the house and switch them off automagically to reduce
consumption.

4) Change "Have the rate charged vary according to national demand
...." in all the above to "Have the rate charged vary according to
national and consumer demand ...".

I won't have a smart meter unless I have no choice or it offers
something that I don't already have (I already log our consumption
and supply voltage). It will be interesting to see how they cope with
getting the required data connection where the meters are, there
isn't a sniff of a mobile signal. If they want to mount an external
aerial they can pay rent for the priviledge.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:38:07 +0000, Scott M wrote:

T'woman said 2020 - though I imagine that they'll simply roll in as part
of the usual upgrade and replacement programme.

Ah the "usual upgrade and replacement programme" that has us with
mechanical meters certified for ten years in 1967 and 1980 and the
electronic for (possibly) 20 years from 1996.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 29/02/2016 19:54, Adrian wrote:

I'd be interested to know how a single meter can tell you which (out of
potentially many) devices is using the most electricity.

When we all get forced into having "intelligent appliances" they could
talk to the meter, say what they are and ask for permission to run.

--
Mike Clarke

On 02/03/2016 21:31, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 29/02/2016 19:54, Adrian wrote:

I'd be interested to know how a single meter can tell you which (out of
potentially many) devices is using the most electricity.

When we all get forced into having "intelligent appliances" they could
talk to the meter, say what they are and ask for permission to run.

Or even ones that just listen to the meter, and behave as it suggests.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29/02/2016 23:10, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:

If you want Big Brother - and maybe the criminal fraternity - to be
able
to work out your movements from your rate of energy consumption, go
for it!

If you can tell my comings and goings based on a single reading per
meter per month, you're a better man than I am ...

Who said anything about one reading per month?

That's the frequency mine are read at, I have the option to allow more
frequent readings (half-hourly and/or daily per fuel).

Don't confuse readings for the purposes of billing, and those for the
purposes of information gathering and network feedback and control.

You may allow them to take a billing reading once per month. The meter
may have the capability of doing it many times a minute - and even if
the good guys don't make use of that capability, you can be sure someone
else will find a way.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
There is a certain novelty in having a visible realtime display of
consumption. One that has a plot of consumption over say the last 6
hours would be better as that will show things like coffee machines
or kettles with a "keep warm" feature or even just the iron left on.

In many households, there will be so many things on at once that
identifying what is using what will likely be a 5 minute wonder for those
who can't make an informed guess anyway.

Now if each appliance communicated with the meter and said what it was
using...

Not impossible in the future.

--
*When chemists die, they barium.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Now if each appliance communicated with the meter and said what it was
using...

Not impossible in the future.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Now if each appliance communicated with the meter and said what it was
using...

Not impossible in the future.


If Microsoft do the networking the chances of success are very
low IMO. W7 just screwed up the printers again!

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 29/02/2016 23:10, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:

If you want Big Brother - and maybe the criminal fraternity - to be
able
to work out your movements from your rate of energy consumption, go
for it!

If you can tell my comings and goings based on a single reading per
meter per month, you're a better man than I am ...

Who said anything about one reading per month?

That's the frequency mine are read at, I have the option to allow more
frequent readings (half-hourly and/or daily per fuel).

Don't confuse readings for the purposes of billing, and those for the
purposes of information gathering and network feedback and control.

You may allow them to take a billing reading once per month. The meter
may have the capability of doing it many times a minute - and even if
the good guys don't make use of that capability, you can be sure
someone else will find a way.

I have just made a financial error.... BG advised me of an estimated gas
bill so, as is my normal practice, I gave them a current meter reading.

Sadly considerably in excess of their estimate.

Having just printed off the revised bill I note they are promising a
price reduction from March...:-(



--
Tim Lamb

On 02/03/2016 23:27, John Rumm wrote:

Don't confuse readings for the purposes of billing, and those for the
purposes of information gathering and network feedback and control.

You may allow them to take a billing reading once per month. The meter
may have the capability of doing it many times a minute - and even if
the good guys don't make use of that capability, you can be sure someone
else will find a way.



If someone wants to know if you are in they can always park down the
road and watch you.
They don't even need to do that as they can always put a concealed
camera somewhere.

On 01/03/16 09:28, Nightjar cpb wrote:
On 29/02/2016 17:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Had a cold call from someone claiming to be from EDF offering me a smart
meter.
I've no real view on whether I want one or not. He tried to 'sell' it by
saying it did a reading automatically and sent it via its phone link. I
said it was no hardship for me to read my meter as it's very accessible.

He then said that my reading was only an estimate, and the smart one
would
be much more reliable. Asked him to explain, and of course he couldn't...


I inherited a smart meter in one of my factory units, when the tenant
moved out. The next occupant found that he couldn't change to the
electricity supplier he wanted as thye used different protocols and
couldn't read the data from the meter.


That's interesting. Is this the same case for domestic?

--
Adrian C

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
There is a certain novelty in having a visible realtime display of
consumption.
I have one of those in my car - totally and utterly pointless.
The one that gives overall average does have some meaning.
--
bert

"ARW" wrote in message
...
"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 29/02/2016 22:58, Roger Mills wrote:

Who said anything about one reading per month? I know *I* did in
relation to reading my dumb meters - but, AIUI, a smart meter can
capture readings at very frequent intervals.

Surely if you have a smart meter, all you have to do to fool the burglars who might
read it while you are away is to leave on a fire or cooker on a time-switch, so that
your consumption pattern makes it look as if your home is still occupied.


Just to drift slightly.

One of my customers claim to fame was that he got arrested breaking into Emlyn Hughes
house and he was caught because Emlyn was in the house when he broke in. This came as a
surprise to my customer as he had waited until "A Question of Sport" had just started
on the TV before breaking into the house and he thought that the house would be empty.


Shame he got caught really. He might have tried to go back to nick
even more stuff while they were showing the repeat.


michael adams

....

In article , michael adams
writes

"ARW" wrote in message
...
"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
On 29/02/2016 22:58, Roger Mills wrote:

Who said anything about one reading per month? I know *I* did in
relation to reading my dumb meters - but, AIUI, a smart meter can
capture readings at very frequent intervals.

Surely if you have a smart meter, all you have to do to fool the
burglars who might
read it while you are away is to leave on a fire or cooker on a
time-switch, so that
your consumption pattern makes it look as if your home is still occupied.


Just to drift slightly.

One of my customers claim to fame was that he got arrested breaking
into Emlyn Hughes
house and he was caught because Emlyn was in the house when he broke
in. This came as a
surprise to my customer as he had waited until "A Question of Sport"
had just started
on the TV before breaking into the house and he thought that the
house would be empty.


Shame he got caught really. He might have tried to go back to nick
even more stuff while they were showing the repeat.


michael adams

...


Lets hope he doesn't watch Dave for his sake.
--
bert

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 01/03/16 09:28, Nightjar cpb wrote:
On 29/02/2016 17:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Had a cold call from someone claiming to be from EDF offering me a smart
meter.
I've no real view on whether I want one or not. He tried to 'sell' it by
saying it did a reading automatically and sent it via its phone link. I
said it was no hardship for me to read my meter as it's very accessible.

He then said that my reading was only an estimate, and the smart one
would
be much more reliable. Asked him to explain, and of course he
couldn't...


I inherited a smart meter in one of my factory units, when the tenant
moved out. The next occupant found that he couldn't change to the
electricity supplier he wanted as thye used different protocols and
couldn't read the data from the meter.


That's interesting. Is this the same case for domestic?

I believe so.



--
Adam

ARW wrote:

Adrian Caspersz wrote:

Nightjar wrote:

I inherited a smart meter in one of my factory units, when the tenant
moved out. The next occupant found that he couldn't change to the
electricity supplier he wanted as thye used different protocols and
couldn't read the data from the meter.

That's interesting. Is this the same case for domestic?

I believe so.

There's nothing to stop the meters being read by eyeballs!