I don't have gas, and I don't really have storage to go the wood chip way, and for the next year or so at least oil looks a passable option.

But my 20 year old boiler is now having to be nursed. Bits are less accessible and it's tired, not helped by it being an external wall hung model and hence is a bit open to the elements.

It would be nice to get it through this winter, and we could at a pinch rely on the wood burning stove for the CH and DHW, but a new boiler is going to have be fitted, possibly sooner rather than later.

The question is what is currently available / recommended - it doesn't need to be wall hung?

Rob

On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 09:44:30 -0800, robgraham wrote:

I don't have gas

You can get a bulk LPG tank in the garden, if you have space. Rental ~15p/
day, just needs a concrete pad to sit on and a trench for the pipework.
Currently about 40p/litre, delivered.

If a riello burner I'd keep it, there's so few bits to go wrong you may as well just refurbish them all and keep it. Changing for a year is pointless. What can't you find? Pump? Motor? Er photocell? Er...

Jim K

On 07/01/2015 19:04, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 09:44:30 -0800, robgraham wrote:

I don't have gas

You can get a bulk LPG tank in the garden, if you have space. Rental ~15p/
day, just needs a concrete pad to sit on and a trench for the pipework.
Currently about 40p/litre, delivered.

Also requires permanent access for a lorry so that it can be picked up
carted off. Not all properties have suitable access.

--
Rod

On 07/01/15 19:04, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 09:44:30 -0800, robgraham wrote:

I don't have gas

You can get a bulk LPG tank in the garden, if you have space. Rental ~15p/
day, just needs a concrete pad to sit on and a trench for the pipework.
Currently about 40p/litre, delivered.


LPG is a little less susceptible to pikies nicking it too - and takes no
more room than an oil tank. Plus you can use it for gas fires and
cooking. My parents used to have one before mains gas came to the area -
worked well for them.

On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 19:38:35 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

You can get a bulk LPG tank in the garden, if you have space.
Rental
~15p/day, just needs a concrete pad to sit on and a trench for the

pipework. Currently about 40p/litre, delivered.

What's the energy content of the litre?

JFGI.... around 7 kWhr/l

For comparison, a litre of oil seems to work out at 10 kWh.

Close enough. Whats the current price for heating oil, it can't be
far away from 40p/l. So LPG at 40p/l plus 15p/day doesn't appear to
be particularly good value, ATM...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 07/01/2015 19:15, JimK wrote:
If a riello burner I'd keep it, there's so few bits to go wrong you may as well just refurbish them all and keep it. Changing for a year is pointless. What can't you find? Pump? Motor? Er photocell? Er...

Jim K


Efficiency, which can be obtained from this link, might be a basis for
replacement:

http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/pcdbsearch.jsp?pid=26

The good news is that modern boilers can often be more efficient. The
bad news is that many if not all of them are condensing which makes them
much more expensive, and complex.

I did find that I could buy a complete new Riello RDB burner for a
little over £200 on ebay. If I had spotted it earlier I might well have
bought one to solve my recent problem.

If you want to replace your boiler you need to decide whether to have a
regular, system or combi model.

There are only a few makes of burner, so I am tempted to suggest that
you should chooses a brand that uses Riello burners, e.g. Worcester-Bosh
or Grant.


--
Michael Chare

/Michael Chare
On 07/01/2015 19:15, JimK wrote:
If a riello burner I'd keep it, there's so few bits to go wrong you may as well just refurbish them all and keep it. Changing for a year is pointless. What can't you find? Pump? Motor? Er photocell? Er...

Jim K


Efficiency, which can be obtained from this link, might be a basis for
replacement:

http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/pcdbsearch.jsp?pid=26 /q

How far back do old boiler efficiencies go on your link?

Jim K

On 07/01/2015 21:26, JimK wrote:
/Michael Chare
On 07/01/2015 19:15, JimK wrote:
If a riello burner I'd keep it, there's so few bits to go wrong you may as well just refurbish them all and keep it. Changing for a year is pointless. What can't you find? Pump? Motor? Er photocell? Er...

Jim K


Efficiency, which can be obtained from this link, might be a basis for
replacement:

http://www.ncm-pcdb.org.uk/sap/pcdbsearch.jsp?pid=26 /q

How far back do old boiler efficiencies go on your link?

Jim K



Maybe 30 years. I would expect it to show the OP's 20 year old boiler.

--
Michael Chare

/ Maybe 30 years. I would expect it to show the OP's 20 year old boiler./q

So armed with old boiler efficiency estimate, annual oil consumption, and refurb costs for old boiler and price for new boiler installation, the op should be able to do the cost/benefit analysis.

When I changed boiler I should've got abt 10% improvement in consumption, but that translates to only about £75 a year in oil. Quite a long payback time.... Hence my proposal to keep/refurb the old one.

Jim K

On 08/01/2015 10:37, JimK wrote:
/ Maybe 30 years. I would expect it to show the OP's 20 year old boiler./q

So armed with old boiler efficiency estimate, annual oil consumption, and refurb costs for old boiler and price for new boiler installation, the op should be able to do the cost/benefit analysis.

When I changed boiler I should've got abt 10% improvement in consumption, but that translates to only about £75 a year in oil. Quite a long payback time.... Hence my proposal to keep/refurb the old one.

Jim K


I replaced mine in 2006, the non condensing boiler itself was about
£800, I spent another £500 or so on other parts such as the flue and
motorised valves etc. At the price I paid for oil last Sept it has more
than paid for itself, as I reduced my consumption by about 6-700 litres
p.a.


--
Michael Chare

/ At the price I paid for oil last Sept it has more than paid for itself, as I reduced my consumption by about 6-700 litres p.a./q

How much oil do you use p.a.?!

Jim K

On 07/01/2015 20:51, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 19:38:35 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

You can get a bulk LPG tank in the garden, if you have space.
Rental
~15p/day, just needs a concrete pad to sit on and a trench for the

pipework. Currently about 40p/litre, delivered.

What's the energy content of the litre?

JFGI.... around 7 kWhr/l

For comparison, a litre of oil seems to work out at 10 kWh.

Close enough. Whats the current price for heating oil, it can't be
far away from 40p/l. So LPG at 40p/l plus 15p/day doesn't appear to
be particularly good value, ATM...

Although it does give you gas for cooking as well, plus the option of
modern gas boilers with better efficiency and (perhaps) lower maintenance.

On 08/01/2015 13:09, JimK wrote:
/ At the price I paid for oil last Sept it has more than paid for itself, as I reduced my consumption by about 6-700 litres p.a./q

How much oil do you use p.a.?!

Jim K

The average for the past seven years is 2700 litres p.a.

--
Michael Chare

/The average for the past seven years is 2700 litres p.a. /q

Hotel?
Draughty old pile?
Leaky tank?
No jumpers available?:-) :-)

Jim K

On 08/01/2015 17:34, JimK wrote:
/The average for the past seven years is 2700 litres p.a. /q

Hotel?
Draughty old pile?
Leaky tank?
No jumpers available?:-) :-)


Not enough insulation. House dates from the 50s. The top half has solid
walls with tiles.


--
Michael Chare

/- show quoted text -
Not enough insulation. House dates from the 50s. The top half has solid
walls with tiles. /q


Mmm, if you'd spent the boiler change cost on insulation and kept the old one, I wonder what the last few years bills would've been?

Jim K

On 08/01/2015 14:44, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:

On 07/01/2015 20:51, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jan 2015 19:38:35 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

You can get a bulk LPG tank in the garden, if you have space.
Rental
~15p/day, just needs a concrete pad to sit on and a trench for the

pipework. Currently about 40p/litre, delivered.

What's the energy content of the litre?

JFGI.... around 7 kWhr/l

For comparison, a litre of oil seems to work out at 10 kWh.

Close enough. Whats the current price for heating oil, it can't be
far away from 40p/l. So LPG at 40p/l plus 15p/day doesn't appear to
be particularly good value, ATM...

Although it does give you gas for cooking as well, plus the option of
modern gas boilers with better efficiency and (perhaps) lower
maintenance.

I'd have to throw away the brand new induction hob, and rip up the
floor to install gas piping, etc etc.

That *does* make a bit of a difference :-)

On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:34:52 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

/The average for the past seven years is 2700 litres p.a. /q

I wish, 2 x 2000 l fillups a year. We'll need one in about 3 weeks
time, so with the price still falling and possibly sub 40p this fill
will be about 2/3 the cost of the last one. ie under £800 against
over £1000.

Draughty old pile?

Aye, large, high and exposed. It's warm outside ATM around 5 C, but
the wind is blowing a bit F5, so the stat has been calling for heat
from 0600 to 1000, off for 30 mins and just back on. 30 kW+ boiler
into thermal store running at about a 50% duty cycle. It's been on
2.5 hours since midnight, burns in the order of 4 l/hr.

Leaky tank?

No jumpers available?:-) :-)

I don't mind two pairs of socks and a jumper but others seem to wrap
up as if they are on an arctic expedition and *still* complain of
being cold.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Friday, 9 January 2015 10:58:10 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:34:52 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

/The average for the past seven years is 2700 litres p.a. /q

I wish, 2 x 2000 l fillups a year. We'll need one in about 3 weeks
time, so with the price still falling and possibly sub 40p this fill
will be about 2/3 the cost of the last one. ie under £800 against
over £1000.

'kin'ell! should be already less than 40p including VAT?

Draughty old pile?

Aye, large, high and exposed.

at what point does it become "uninhabitable"?

No jumpers available?:-) :-)

I don't mind two pairs of socks and a jumper but others seem to wrap
up as if they are on an arctic expedition and *still* complain of
being cold.

time for some exercise equipment linked to the telly?

Jim K

On 09/01/2015 08:07, JimK wrote:
/- show quoted text -
Not enough insulation. House dates from the 50s. The top half has solid
walls with tiles. /q


Mmm, if you'd spent the boiler change cost on insulation and kept the old one, I wonder what the last few years bills would've been?

Jim K


Why not have both? Improving the insulation is really a separate issue.

I changed the boiler when I did because I wanted to fit a non condensing
one, also I was not at all sure about how easily I could get spares for
a boiler that might well be 25-30 years old. In the winter I would need
these quickly if something failed. This did happen one New Year's eve.
In the end the local boiler maintenance people gave me an old (used)
version the critical part I needed.

Most of the burner components were Danfoss. .


--
Michael Chare

/Why not have both? *Improving the insulation is really a separate issue. /q

Er.... So why haven't you?

& shurely the better insulated the building the less fuel you'd burn to warm it??

Jim K

On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 12:00:07 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

& shurely the better insulated the building the less fuel you'd burn to
warm it??

True enough but it depends on how easy it is to insulate the
building. Modern boxes with cavity walls: POP, days work, done, not
disruption inside. Solid walls are a little different...

--
Cheers
Dave.

/Solid walls are a little different... /q

Not too bad once you get started :-)

Jim K

On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 at 7:15:12 PM UTC, JimK wrote:
If a riello burner I'd keep it, there's so few bits to go wrong you may as well just refurbish them all and keep it. Changing for a year is pointless. What can't you find? Pump? Motor? Er photocell? Er...

Jim K

Thanks all for your comments. Interestingly my reading is that I should be applying the same philosophy as my ancient Mother's ancient gas boiler - cast iron body, etc. that her maintenance man says she shouldn't replace.

Certainly my pay back on a new boiler would be poor as I only expect to use 1200l of oil a year.

Jim K - the weak part of the Boulter boiler appears to be flame spreader box ("combustion chamber baffle") - it has refractory material on it to spread the flame from the Riello burner and do not seem to be available. My rebuild of the refractory part lasts about 2 years.

Rob

On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 04:08:21 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

I wish, 2 x 2000 l fillups a year. We'll need one in about 3 weeks
time, so with the price still falling and possibly sub 40p this
fill
will be about 2/3 the cost of the last one. ie under £800 against
over £1000.

'kin'ell! should be already less than 40p including VAT?

I wrote that more than 24 hours ago and the price has fallen over a
cliff in the last few days. Have a look at the price charts on Bolier
Juice but remember their prices (at least for me) are normally 1 to
2p/l more than the local suppliers. Think I'm going to keep a very
close eye on the expected price, 'cause I expect when it starts to
rise again it'll rise as fast as it was falling.

Draughty old pile?

Aye, large, high and exposed.

at what point does it become "uninhabitable"?

When we run out of socks, jumpers, blankets and duvets. B-)

Been hovering about freezing point most of today outside and there is
a heavy sugar frosting of snow lying about.

time for some exercise equipment linked to the telly?

How would that help? We don't watch much telly. Linked to the
server, switches, modems etc on the other hand...

--
Cheers
Dave.

/I wrote that more than 24 hours ago and the price has fallen over a
cliff in the last few days./q

Steadyish decline since end of Oct.

/ Have a look at the price charts on Bolier
Juice but remember their prices (at least for me) are normally 1 to
2p/l more than the local suppliers. Think I'm going to keep a very
close eye on the expected price, 'cause I expect when it starts to
rise again it'll rise as fast as it was falling. /q

http://www.cheapestoil.co.uk/articles/trend.aspx

Boilerjuice is run by a cartel of suppliers.. I always pay less than them and mostly less than trend on cheapestoil.

Worldwide recession, plenty oil sloshing as no one keen to cut production.... It'll take a fair bit of international politicing to turn that lot around soon...

Jim K

/Jim K - the weak part of the Boulter boiler appears to be flame spreader box ("combustion chamber baffle") - it has refractory material on it to spread the flame from the Riello burner and do not seem to be available/q


What model name/number?

Jim K

On 11/01/2015 13:17, JimK wrote:
Boilerjuice is run by a cartel of suppliers.. I always pay less than them and mostly less than trend on cheapestoil.

We have a village syndicate. Beat them comfortably.

Andy

/We have a village syndicate. Beat them comfortably./q

Yes been pondering that, are 'difficuit access' deliveries acceptable on those schemes? Or is it only a fo tanker and all 'straightforward access' drops done on one tanker route?

Jim K

On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 05:17:06 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

/I wrote that more than 24 hours ago and the price has fallen over a
cliff in the last few days./q

Steadyish decline since end of Oct.
snip
http://www.cheapestoil.co.uk/articles/trend.aspx

Boilerjuice is run by a cartel of suppliers.. I always pay less than
them and mostly less than trend on cheapestoil.

Go back a year on cheapest oil and you'll see a markedly steeper fall
in price during January. Look at the last month and it dropped 4p/l
from 4 Jan to 9 Jan about the same as it fell from 11 Dec 4 Jan.

Didn't boilerjuice get a bollocking a year or so back about
pretending to be independant but wasn't, GB Oil(*), being involved
somewhere. It was then carved off to some extent. the T&C's now state
the site is run by BoilerJuice Limited wholly owend by Welsummer ltd.

Worldwide recession, plenty oil sloshing as no one keen to cut
production.... It'll take a fair bit of international politicing to turn
that lot around soon...

There has been a world wide recession for quite a while, production
hasn't been cut, prices have been "high" until comparatively
recently. Looking at what I've been paying for diesel, it rose from
£1/l at the end of 2009 to £1.30 to £1.40/l by early 2011, stayed
more or less within that range until Oct/Nov 2014 then started to
slowly fall. The dramatic drop has been since mid Dec 2014, when it
was about 120p/l, last fill up 7 Jan was 112.7p/l.

This sudden drop doesn't "feel right", I sort of wonder if "they" are
letting the price plumment to try and reduce the money supply to ISIS
/ Al-Qaeda.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 11 Jan 2015 12:45:45 -0800 (PST), JimK wrote:

/We have a village syndicate. Beat them comfortably./q

Yes been pondering that, are 'difficuit access' deliveries acceptable on
those schemes? Or is it only a fo tanker and all 'straightforward
access' drops done on one tanker route?

And how does the timing work? We'll be needing a fill "soon", the
spreadsheet is predicting 1 Feb but if it stays cold and windy that
could easily come forward a week or more. Currently it would be a bit
tight, if not too tight, to fit 2000l into the tank.

I guess not all syndicate members have to buy for a particular
delivery. How much oil do you have to commit to to get a decent
discount? I get some for buying a mere 2000l rather than the more
usual domestic quantity of 900 or 1000l.

--
Cheers
Dave.

/This sudden drop doesn't "feel right", I sort of wonder if "they" are
letting the price plumment to try and reduce the money supply to ISIS
/ Al-Qaeda. /q

And the russians...

Isn't this the 'normal' post Xmas price dip set against a novel falling price background?

Jim K

On 11/01/2015 20:45, JimK wrote:
Yes been pondering that, are 'difficuit access' deliveries acceptable on those schemes? Or is it only a fo tanker and all 'straightforward access' drops done on one tanker route?

When we ordered they asked us.


As it happens we're easy access.

Andy

On 12/01/2015 10:00, Dave Liquorice wrote:
I guess not all syndicate members have to buy for a particular
delivery. How much oil do you have to commit to to get a decent
discount? I get some for buying a mere 2000l rather than the more
usual domestic quantity of 900 or 1000l.

We bought 1000 last time, but we've bought 500 before.

I suggest you google for "village oil syndicate" and read some of the
clubs. There may even be one nearby.

Andy