Just put my 2 year old, 60,000 mile VW Caddy Bluemotion in for a service
at Main Dealer as per the Leasing company requirements.

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

The van is leased, so not really my problem, or so I thought.
They now say this could have been caused by putting petrol in the tank
at some point.

I can see the Leasing company trying to use this to get me to pay for
the repairs. I know the van has never had petrol in the tank, as I am
the only person who has ever driven it.

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

I don't think they know where the swarf came from, and a easy fix is to
replace everything.

All I do know is I won't be paying for it, and am quite enjoying the
Caddy Sportline I have as a Courtesy Van.
--
Eednud

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:55:32 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to be,
running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR. Damn
near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...

On 10/12/2014 19:01, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:55:32 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to be,
running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR. Damn
near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...


Would think VW would cover that under Warranty then. I would think
there was more than 1 fuel filter in the system as well

--
Eednud

In message , Adrian
writes
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:55:32 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to be,
running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR. Damn
near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...

Isn't there also an issue with low sulphur diesel not lubricating the
pump properly?



--
Tim Lamb

"Eednud" wrote in message
...
Just put my 2 year old, 60,000 mile VW Caddy Bluemotion in for a service
at Main Dealer as per the Leasing company requirements.

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines! and
I wont get the van back for another week..

The van is leased, so not really my problem, or so I thought.
They now say this could have been caused by putting petrol in the tank at
some point.

Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.

I can see the Leasing company trying to use this to get me to pay for the
repairs. I know the van has never had petrol in the tank, as I am the only
person who has ever driven it.

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component was
breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as the
fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have been a
fault at the petrol station with their filters.

I don't think they know where the swarf came from, and a easy fix is to
replace everything.

All I do know is I won't be paying for it, and am quite enjoying the Caddy
Sportline I have as a Courtesy Van.
--
Eednud

On 10/12/2014 20:17, Rod Speed wrote:


"Eednud" wrote in message
...
Just put my 2 year old, 60,000 mile VW Caddy Bluemotion in for a
service at Main Dealer as per the Leasing company requirements.

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have
to replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel
lines! and I wont get the van back for another week..

The van is leased, so not really my problem, or so I thought.
They now say this could have been caused by putting petrol in the tank
at some point.

Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.


Me neither but Googling it, seems to suggest Diesel acts as a lubricant,
and petrol doesn't.


--
Eednud

On 10/12/2014 19:01, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:55:32 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to be,
running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR. Damn
near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...


To my mind the term "swarf" describes the sort of metallic debris
generated by turning, milling, or drilling, i.e. relatively large curly
deformed bits of metal. The wear you will normally get in a diesel pump
will be micron-sized and if you collect it it will look like black
sludge, not recognisably metallic at all except perhaps in a high
powered optical microscope or an SEM. I don't think it will be
"glittering" to the naked eye, it would be too small.

But I suppose that sufficiently abrasive debris in the system, something
like sand, might cause scoring in the pump parts (either the lift or the
injector pump?), and perhaps glittery debris. In that case total
replacement sounds like the right strategy (especially if someone else
is paying).

I'd agree that petrol in the system could lead to pump wear.

"Eednud" wrote in message
...
On 10/12/2014 20:17, Rod Speed wrote:


"Eednud" wrote in message
...
Just put my 2 year old, 60,000 mile VW Caddy Bluemotion in for a
service at Main Dealer as per the Leasing company requirements.

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have
to replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel
lines! and I wont get the van back for another week..

The van is leased, so not really my problem, or so I thought.
They now say this could have been caused by putting petrol in the tank
at some point.

Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.


Me neither but Googling it, seems to suggest Diesel acts as a lubricant,
and petrol doesn't.

Yeah, I spose that is plausible, but how did they discover that
there was swarf on the output side of the pump in a normal
service ? I spose they could have detected erratic ignition and
checked the state of the output of the pump to see if that was
the cause.

Eednud wrote:
On 10/12/2014 19:01, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:55:32 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to be,
running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR. Damn
near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...


Would think VW would cover that under Warranty then.

Most warranties don't cover misfuelling, even if you don't recall an
episode. In Northern Ireland they used to have a big problem with dodgy
fuel and whatever the cause, fuel systems were not covered by warranties.

I would think there was more than 1 fuel filter in the system as well.

Can see how this would help. Once petrol or other low lubricity fuel has
reached the fuel pump, the damage is done. Extra filters won't stop that.

Tim

Sounds like a bent dealer to me.

Care to name?

Jim K

Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
What is the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove"
it did

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:17:00 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have
to replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel
lines! and I wont get the van back for another week..

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced,
as the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also
have been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf
after the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the
return lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump
before being caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to
be, running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR.
Damn near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...

Would think VW would cover that under Warranty then.

ITYM "wouldn't", if it is fuel system contamination.

I would think there was more than 1 fuel filter in the system as well

Between the pump and the injectors...? With 30,000psi...?

Andy Burns wrote:
Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
What is the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove" it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

Tim

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Andy Burns wrote:
Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
What is the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove"
it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

It doesnt matter what they believe. If they are trying to force
you to pay for it, they have to prove it, not just believe it.

On 10/12/2014 23:20, Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
What is the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove" it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres of
petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Adrian formulated the question :
If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

You are forgetting the under-bonnet diesel filter!

Pump and strainer in the tank, piped forward to the under bonnet
filter, which catches all of the fine material. From there it feeds
onto the HP pump, the rail, injectors. Any surplus then returns to the
tank maybe via a fuel cooler. If there is a problem with swarf, that
under-bonnet filter should catch it and it would show there.

If there is swarf in the tank, it has either been there from new, or is
coming from the HP pump, or perhaps from the in tank pump - but if the
latter, it must have escaped via the strainer the WRONG way, the
reverse direction to the flow.

I see no reason to replace anything - apart from the component which is
failing, if there is one. The system can simply be flushed out, the old
filter checked and maybe replaced. Sounds like the garage are turning a
drama into a crisis.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

After serious thinking Rod Speed wrote :
Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.

Petrol has no lubrication properties, which would cause massive wear on
the LP pump and the HP pump.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/12/2014 23:20, Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
What is the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove"
it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres of
petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they doing
when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's what you
have to ask them.

is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the servicing
procedure? assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under the
floor and a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to the
filler hole,
i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks with the filler neck
and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you could see into the tank when
you removed the cap) was the square shape - pre~99 Iveco daily, and the
square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so on.....

And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the tank
whilst shining a torch in there,
Tho' did once have to remove the fuel tank from a merc 609 to clean it out,
but that was because it had sat with the cap missing for months at a
coachbuilders who were converting it to a recovery truck, they went bankrupt
mid build, and it was spring time, so a blue tit built a nest in the
tank..... knew that before i emptied the tank as i kept getting blue and
yellow feathers in the pre-filter bowl every time the engine died from fuel
starvation.

If you've only put a small amount of petrol in a diesel tank aren't
you supposed to fill it to the top with diesel to dilute it and
hammer up and down the motorway for a bit to burn it off through
the engine?

jgh

brought next idea :
If you've only put a small amount of petrol in a diesel tank aren't
you supposed to fill it to the top with diesel to dilute it and
hammer up and down the motorway for a bit to burn it off through
the engine?

jgh

A small amount will do no harm (say 5%), but best to then keep the tank
filled up a few times, each time there is room to put some in, so as to
dilute in down as soon as possible. Hammer it - no reason to, just
drive it normally.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:47:15 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf
after the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the
return lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump
before being caught in the filter.

You are forgetting the under-bonnet diesel filter!

No, I'm not.

Pump and strainer in the tank, piped forward to the under bonnet filter,
which catches all of the fine material. From there it feeds onto the HP
pump, the rail, injectors. Any surplus then returns to the tank maybe
via a fuel cooler. If there is a problem with swarf, that under-bonnet
filter should catch it and it would show there.

Yes, exactly.

If there is swarf in the tank, it has either been there from new, or is
coming from the HP pump

Which is exactly what I suggested.

I see no reason to replace anything - apart from the component which is
failing, if there is one.

Because the swarf has circulated through the entire system, having
started from the HP pump, before being stopped by the filter just before
the HP pump.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:05:58 +0000, Gazz wrote:

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's
what you have to ask them.

Changing the fuel filter involves plenty of fuel spillage, and the
swarf/"glitter" would show up under the workshop lights.

On 11/12/2014 14:05, Gazz wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/12/2014 23:20, Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
What is the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which
operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can
"prove" it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres of
petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's
what you have to ask them.

is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the servicing
procedure? assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under
the floor and a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to
the filler hole,
i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks with the filler
neck and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you could see into the
tank when you removed the cap) was the square shape - pre~99 Iveco
daily, and the square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so on.....

And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the tank
whilst shining a torch in there,
Tho' did once have to remove the fuel tank from a merc 609 to clean it
out, but that was because it had sat with the cap missing for months at
a coachbuilders who were converting it to a recovery truck, they went
bankrupt mid build, and it was spring time, so a blue tit built a nest
in the tank..... knew that before i emptied the tank as i kept getting
blue and yellow feathers in the pre-filter bowl every time the engine
died from fuel starvation.

It was in for its 60K service, also the cat convertor light was on, and
intermittently the Engine management light would come on, so I asked
them to look at that.

I assume they found the swarf in the fuel filter, when it was swapped
out, and then tried further investigation.

It runs fine, but its down to the lease company to authorise any work.

--
Eednud

On 10/12/2014 21:26, Tim+ wrote:
Eednud wrote:
On 10/12/2014 19:01, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:55:32 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to be,
running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR. Damn
near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...


Would think VW would cover that under Warranty then.

Most warranties don't cover misfuelling, even if you don't recall an
episode. In Northern Ireland they used to have a big problem with dodgy
fuel and whatever the cause, fuel systems were not covered by warranties.

I would think there was more than 1 fuel filter in the system as well.

Can see how this would help. Once petrol or other low lubricity fuel has
reached the fuel pump, the damage is done. Extra filters won't stop that.

Tim

Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
cause.

--
Eednud

Harry Bloomfield wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.

Petrol has no lubrication properties, which would
cause massive wear on the LP pump and the HP pump.

I wouldn't expect that to produce SWARF tho,
that should at most produce very fine metal dust.

Gazz wrote
John Rumm wrote
Tim+ wrote
Andy Burns wrote
Eednud wrote

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank What is the
likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which
operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove"
it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres of
petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's what
you have to ask them.

is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the servicing
procedure?

I spose it might be given the very real possibility of putting
petrol in the tank accidentally and that causing pump damage.

But I can't see how that would produce a visible effect in the
tank, that should be downstream of the pump and even the
excess going back into the tank shouldnt see that since that
should be caught by the filter before it gets back to the tank.

assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under the floor and
a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to the filler hole,
i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks with the filler neck
and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you could see into the tank when
you removed the cap) was the square shape - pre~99 Iveco daily, and the
square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so on.....

And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the tank
whilst shining a torch in there,

Like I said tho, they may have detected less than perfect
engine performance and found the crap in the diesel when
trying to work out why it wasnt performing as well as it should.

Tho' did once have to remove the fuel tank from a merc 609 to clean it
out, but that was because it had sat with the cap missing for months at a
coachbuilders who were converting it to a recovery truck, they went
bankrupt mid build, and it was spring time, so a blue tit built a nest in
the tank..... knew that before i emptied the tank as i kept getting blue
and yellow feathers in the pre-filter bowl every time the engine died from
fuel starvation.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:12:54 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
cause.

You don't know that for sure.
In Ireland, there has been a spate of rogue diesel and petrol being
sold from trusted forecourts (admittedly not any of the well-known
chains). The diesel is laundered agri-diesel, the petrol is cut with
kerosene. Either will totally bugger up a modern fuel system and/or
engine of the relevant type.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:08:38 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

Isn't there also an issue with low sulphur diesel not lubricating the
pump properly?

That was (supposedly) addressed by the inclusion of 5% bio-diesel.

/Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
cause. /q

**** left in "cheap" (for someone) diesel?

'In the Republic, according to figures reported by a Dail (Irish parliament) committee that investigated the issue, the authorities lose about 150m euro each year.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22736534

Jim K

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:12:54 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
cause.

You've not put the green nozzle in the filler. Beyond that? You're hoping.

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:21:28 PM UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
brought next idea :
If you've only put a small amount of petrol in a diesel tank aren't
you supposed to fill it to the top with diesel to dilute it and
hammer up and down the motorway for a bit to burn it off through
the engine?

jgh

A small amount will do no harm (say 5%), but best to then keep the tank
filled up a few times, each time there is room to put some in, so as to
dilute in down as soon as possible. Hammer it - no reason to, just
drive it normally.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

I twice filled a Mercedes Sprinter with petrol and both times drove it off the forecourt until it started to splutter. Both times We towed it back, emptied all of the petrol via syphon and finally at the pump, and filled to the top with pukka diesel. Twice I got away with it. I have a feeling that was an older type engine from the current breed and I might not get away so lightly if I did it on a current Mercedes van.

The 'dirty' petrol was used in two stroke garden machines. Smoked incredibly but apart from that no damage.

All those scare stories on TV news that even if you hadn't started your engine after filling up with petrol the damage was done and engine replacement was on the cards. Bollix

On 11/12/2014 19:25, Rod Speed wrote:
Gazz wrote
John Rumm wrote
Tim+ wrote
Andy Burns wrote
Eednud wrote

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank What is
the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which
operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can
"prove" it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are
more inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres
of petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's
what you have to ask them.

is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the
servicing procedure?

I spose it might be given the very real possibility of putting
petrol in the tank accidentally and that causing pump damage.

But I can't see how that would produce a visible effect in the
tank, that should be downstream of the pump and even the
excess going back into the tank shouldnt see that since that
should be caught by the filter before it gets back to the tank.

assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under the floor
and a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to the
filler hole, i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks
with the filler neck and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you
could see into the tank when you removed the cap) was the square shape
- pre~99 Iveco daily, and the square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so
on.....

And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the
tank whilst shining a torch in there,

Like I said tho, they may have detected less than perfect
engine performance and found the crap in the diesel when
trying to work out why it wasnt performing as well as it should.

Tho' did once have to remove the fuel tank from a merc 609 to clean
it out, but that was because it had sat with the cap missing for
months at a coachbuilders who were converting it to a recovery truck,
they went bankrupt mid build, and it was spring time, so a blue tit
built a nest in the tank..... knew that before i emptied the tank as i
kept getting blue and yellow feathers in the pre-filter bowl every
time the engine died from fuel starvation.

Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not
covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol
in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..



--
Eednud

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
A small amount will do no harm (say 5%), but best to then keep the tank
filled up a few times, each time there is room to put some in, so as to
dilute in down as soon as possible. Hammer it - no reason to, just
drive it normally.

Well, by hammer it, I meant what my MOT chap advised me a few years ago
with my old automatic petrol Rover: get on the motorway and keep a
constant 70 for at least half an hour to bed the engine in. (I can't
remember the details, just that the magic pixies under the bonnet
sounded noticably "nicer" after a round trip to Woolley Services and
back. I'd been doing loads of urban stop-start pickup-dropoff driving
for months.)

jgh

/
Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it../q

Bummer.
2nd opinion?
Insurance ?- £26 legal expenses phone call?

Anyone else suffering with this locally? Nice little earner all round......

Jim K

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:56:35 +0000, Eednud wrote:

Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not
covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol
in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

Is this a fixed term lease or a rolling one? What are the penalty
terms of terminating the lease early? Terminate lease, their
problem...

What was mentioned earlier about why the garage are spotting "glitter
in the tank". Get the garage to demonstrate this to you and explain
why they are looking in the first place (spotting bits in the filter
is plausable). Get the service manager involved not a desk clerk or
the fitter.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Eednud wrote:
On 11/12/2014 19:25, Rod Speed wrote:
Gazz wrote
John Rumm wrote
Tim+ wrote
Andy Burns wrote
Eednud wrote

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank What is
the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which
operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can
"prove" it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are
more inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres
of petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's
what you have to ask them.

is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the
servicing procedure?

I spose it might be given the very real possibility of putting
petrol in the tank accidentally and that causing pump damage.

But I can't see how that would produce a visible effect in the
tank, that should be downstream of the pump and even the
excess going back into the tank shouldnt see that since that
should be caught by the filter before it gets back to the tank.

assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under the floor
and a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to the
filler hole, i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks
with the filler neck and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you
could see into the tank when you removed the cap) was the square shape
- pre~99 Iveco daily, and the square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so
on.....

And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the
tank whilst shining a torch in there,

Like I said tho, they may have detected less than perfect
engine performance and found the crap in the diesel when
trying to work out why it wasnt performing as well as it should.

Tho' did once have to remove the fuel tank from a merc 609 to clean
it out, but that was because it had sat with the cap missing for
months at a coachbuilders who were converting it to a recovery truck,
they went bankrupt mid build, and it was spring time, so a blue tit
built a nest in the tank..... knew that before i emptied the tank as i
kept getting blue and yellow feathers in the pre-filter bowl every
time the engine died from fuel starvation.

Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not
covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol in
tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

Not surprised. I did say that warranties don't cover damage due to fuel
contamination. Time to talk to your insurance company. They're sometimes
sympathetic. Certainly my friend had his fuel system replaced under
insurance after accidental misfuelling.

Tim

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:57:29 -0800, fred wrote:

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:21:28 PM UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
brought next idea :
If you've only put a small amount of petrol in a diesel tank aren't
you supposed to fill it to the top with diesel to dilute it and
hammer up and down the motorway for a bit to burn it off through the
engine?

jgh

A small amount will do no harm (say 5%), but best to then keep the tank
filled up a few times, each time there is room to put some in, so as to
dilute in down as soon as possible. Hammer it - no reason to, just
drive it normally.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

I twice filled a Mercedes Sprinter with petrol and both times drove it
off the forecourt until it started to splutter. Both times We towed it
back, emptied all of the petrol via syphon and finally at the pump, and
filled to the top with pukka diesel. Twice I got away with it. I have a
feeling that was an older type engine from the current breed and I might
not get away so lightly if I did it on a current Mercedes van.

The 'dirty' petrol was used in two stroke garden machines. Smoked
incredibly but apart from that no damage.

All those scare stories on TV news that even if you hadn't started your
engine after filling up with petrol the damage was done and engine
replacement was on the cards. Bollix

I did it twice on the same car (my first diesel).

First time, I topped up the half full diesel tank with petrol and drove
home (about 2 miles or so). I went indoors, took the sales slip out of my
pocket and realised what I'd done. I got the RAC to take it to my local
garage, who drained it, flushed it and changed the fuel filter.

I then bought a Fuel Angel to stop me doing it again.

A few months later I did it again. I thought the pump was being awkward
because it filled slowly, but I managed to defeat the Fuel Angel and fill
the nearly empty tank with petrol. The car spluttered to a halt after
about a mile. I called out the RAC and they drained it by the roadside
(their 'misfuelling unit'). Drove to my garage (another mile) and had the
filter changed.

I decided to change the car about 3 months later, before anything broke.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Eednud" wrote in message
...
On 11/12/2014 19:25, Rod Speed wrote:
Gazz wrote
John Rumm wrote
Tim+ wrote
Andy Burns wrote
Eednud wrote

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank What is
the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol
wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which
operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess
fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can
"prove" it did

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are
more inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres
of petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's
what you have to ask them.

is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the
servicing procedure?

I spose it might be given the very real possibility of putting
petrol in the tank accidentally and that causing pump damage.

But I can't see how that would produce a visible effect in the
tank, that should be downstream of the pump and even the
excess going back into the tank shouldnt see that since that
should be caught by the filter before it gets back to the tank.

assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under the floor
and a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to the
filler hole, i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks
with the filler neck and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you
could see into the tank when you removed the cap) was the square shape
- pre~99 Iveco daily, and the square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so
on.....

And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the
tank whilst shining a torch in there,

Like I said tho, they may have detected less than perfect
engine performance and found the crap in the diesel when
trying to work out why it wasnt performing as well as it should.

Tho' did once have to remove the fuel tank from a merc 609 to clean
it out, but that was because it had sat with the cap missing for
months at a coachbuilders who were converting it to a recovery truck,
they went bankrupt mid build, and it was spring time, so a blue tit
built a nest in the tank..... knew that before i emptied the tank as i
kept getting blue and yellow feathers in the pre-filter bowl every
time the engine died from fuel starvation.

Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not
covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol in
tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

Tell the leasing company to prove it and tell them that you
will take it to the small claims court. That will shut them up.

Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:57:29 -0800, fred wrote:

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:21:28 PM UTC, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
brought next idea :
If you've only put a small amount of petrol in a diesel tank aren't
you supposed to fill it to the top with diesel to dilute it and
hammer up and down the motorway for a bit to burn it off through the
engine?

jgh

A small amount will do no harm (say 5%), but best to then keep the tank
filled up a few times, each time there is room to put some in, so as to
dilute in down as soon as possible. Hammer it - no reason to, just
drive it normally.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

I twice filled a Mercedes Sprinter with petrol and both times drove it
off the forecourt until it started to splutter. Both times We towed it
back, emptied all of the petrol via syphon and finally at the pump, and
filled to the top with pukka diesel. Twice I got away with it. I have a
feeling that was an older type engine from the current breed and I might
not get away so lightly if I did it on a current Mercedes van.

The 'dirty' petrol was used in two stroke garden machines. Smoked
incredibly but apart from that no damage.

All those scare stories on TV news that even if you hadn't started your
engine after filling up with petrol the damage was done and engine
replacement was on the cards. Bollix

I did it twice on the same car (my first diesel).

First time, I topped up the half full diesel tank with petrol and drove
home (about 2 miles or so). I went indoors, took the sales slip out of my
pocket and realised what I'd done. I got the RAC to take it to my local
garage, who drained it, flushed it and changed the fuel filter.

I then bought a Fuel Angel to stop me doing it again.

A few months later I did it again. I thought the pump was being awkward
because it filled slowly, but I managed to defeat the Fuel Angel and fill
the nearly empty tank with petrol. The car spluttered to a halt after
about a mile. I called out the RAC and they drained it by the roadside
(their 'misfuelling unit'). Drove to my garage (another mile) and had the
filter changed.

I decided to change the car about 3 months later, before anything broke.




Wise move. It can take months/years for the full extent of the damage to
become apparent. Intrigued to know how you managed to defeat the Fuel
Angel. Did you let the makers know?

Tim

Time

On 12/12/2014 18:31, JimK wrote:
/
Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it../q

Bummer.
2nd opinion?
Insurance ?- £26 legal expenses phone call?

Anyone else suffering with this locally? Nice little earner all round......

Jim K

I travel all over the country,although I only use Shell Garages, so
wouldn't be able to narrow it down to any garage, not sure how long ago,
if it even was dodgy fuel from a forecourt, and then proving it, is
another matter.

--
Eednud