My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing up. Is
this plausible?

I left it running with some dishwasher cleaner in the hope that this might
clear any small internal blockage. What should I try next?

Tim

On 26/11/2014 22:20, Tim+ wrote:
What should I try next?

Well, if it were my mother, she would give it a good talking to and show
it a catalogue of brand spanking new dishwasher as a strong hint.

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing up.
Is
this plausible?

Yes, there must obviously be some sort of level sensor
that tells the machine when there is enough water in it.

But that doesnt explain why the rinse cycle is fine
because the sensor should be used for that too.

I left it running with some dishwasher cleaner in the hope that this
might clear any small internal blockage. What should I try next?

I'd try having a look where the water inlet
is and check whether its all scaled up etc.

Again, that doesnt explain why the rinse cycle works fine tho.

I'd try the pure rinse cycle and see if that works.

If it does, it may be some sort of electronic failure
that doesnt allow the program to work properly.
Unfortunately that may be relatively expensive to fix.

Tim+ wrote:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up.

So are you half German?

Bill

Tim+ wrote:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

Assuming general Bosch (and most others!) layout:

Remove the left hand panel and the lower front skirt.

The water matrix, fill-level detector (a diaphragm/microswitch affair)
and overfull float should all be visible and will have a variety of
black mouldy gunk in them. The matrix can be cleaned by inverting, half
filling with very hot water from the kettle and vigorously shaking.
Various other bits will come apart for manual cleaning.

The pipe from the level sensor area then runs round the front to the
circulator pump. If this blocks it gives too much back pressure and the
fill sensor can cut off early (so low level and poor washing pressure.)
Remove and clean out (I did one the other day that had what looked like
half a DW tablet lodged in it.)

Some machines apparently have a flow measuring device (aka "jug") to
meter out the incomming water, and these are noted to fail - tho I think
they get into a permanent fill and drain cycle as the overfull
sensor's triggered.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Well the last one of these I encountered was suffering from a split in the
plastic of the spray arms, lowering the pressure, but it was still
filling,just not cleaning as the thingies did not go around. Just another
reason not to buy a dishwasher in my case.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing up.
Is
this plausible?

I left it running with some dishwasher cleaner in the hope that this might
clear any small internal blockage. What should I try next?

Tim

On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 10:20:05 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing up. Is
this plausible?

I left it running with some dishwasher cleaner in the hope that this might
clear any small internal blockage. What should I try next?

Tim

Where do you store your dirty dishes or do you wash-up after every meal / drink?

In message , at 11:44:55 on Thu, 27
Nov 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing
up. Is
this plausible?

Yes, there must obviously be some sort of level sensor
that tells the machine when there is enough water in it.

But that doesnt explain why the rinse cycle is fine
because the sensor should be used for that too.

I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to
happen more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the
"flood sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and seems to
stop the machine filling if there's too much build-up of leaking water
in the 'chassis'. The electronics must assume that if it gets as far as
the rinse cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the rest of the wash.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:44:55 on Thu, 27 Nov
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing up. Is
this plausible?

Yes, there must obviously be some sort of level sensor
that tells the machine when there is enough water in it.

But that doesnt explain why the rinse cycle is fine
because the sensor should be used for that too.

I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to happen
more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the "flood
sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and seems to stop the
machine filling if there's too much build-up of leaking water in the
'chassis'. The electronics must assume that if it gets as far as the
rinse cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the rest of the wash.

Cheers, I'll check this out too.

Tim

Scott M wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

Assuming general Bosch (and most others!) layout:

Remove the left hand panel and the lower front skirt.

The water matrix, fill-level detector (a diaphragm/microswitch affair)
and overfull float should all be visible and will have a variety of black
mouldy gunk in them. The matrix can be cleaned by inverting, half filling
with very hot water from the kettle and vigorously shaking. Various other
bits will come apart for manual cleaning.

The pipe from the level sensor area then runs round the front to the
circulator pump. If this blocks it gives too much back pressure and the
fill sensor can cut off early (so low level and poor washing pressure.)
Remove and clean out (I did one the other day that had what looked like
half a DW tablet lodged in it.)

Some machines apparently have a flow measuring device (aka "jug") to
meter out the incomming water, and these are noted to fail - tho I think
they get into a permanent fill and drain cycle as the overfull sensor's triggered.


Cheers Scott, I'll have another look next time I'm up.

Tim

zaax wrote:
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 10:20:05 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing up. Is
this plausible?

I left it running with some dishwasher cleaner in the hope that this might
clear any small internal blockage. What should I try next?

Tim

Where do you store your dirty dishes or do you wash-up after every meal / drink?

What has what I do have to do with anything?

Tim

On 27/11/2014 10:56, zaax wrote:
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 10:20:05 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't seem
to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it seems to
work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if you yank the
door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming from the
washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more water
is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is playing up. Is
this plausible?

I left it running with some dishwasher cleaner in the hope that this might
clear any small internal blockage. What should I try next?

Tim

Where do you store your dirty dishes or do you wash-up after every meal / drink?


Its simples, you take the clean stuff out and use it, then you put it
back in the other dishwasher. Wash it when full and repeat.

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't
seem to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it
seems to work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if
you yank the door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water
coming from the washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate.

On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay.

I've checked the inlet tap, hose and hose filter. The inlet solenoid
seems
to be working fine as does the pump which pumps with gusto when more
water is manually added. I'm guessing some sort of level sensor is
playing up. Is this plausible?

Yes, there must obviously be some sort of level sensor
that tells the machine when there is enough water in it.

But that doesnt explain why the rinse cycle is fine
because the sensor should be used for that too.

I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to happen
more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the "flood sensor"
which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and seems to stop the machine
filling if there's too much build-up of leaking water in the 'chassis'.
The electronics must assume that if it gets as far as the rinse cycle that
the sensor can be ignored for the rest of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the
flood sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood
is even more likely to happen ?

I guess its possible someone ****ed up and the flood sensor
is ignored during the rinse just because someone ****ed up.
That's why I asked if he gets the same result with the pure
rinse cycle which has no wash phase at all.


I actually have a Bosch Classic Electronic myself and find that
it does a pretty lousy job with the very dirty glass jars I use for
almost everything that used to be 600g marmalade jars. Not
clear why and I keep forgetting to try them in the bottom
rack. This dishwasher is unusual for me in the sense that the
spray system for the top rack is actually attacked to the
bottom of the top rack and comes out when you slide the
top rack out to get at the contents and obviously disconnects
itself from the water supply at the back of the cabinet. I have
wondered if maybe that doesnt always connect that well and
so the water pressure in the top spray isnt as good as in the
bottom which doesnt disconnect.

Nothing to do with his problem, just an aside.

In message , at 05:27:40 on Fri, 28
Nov 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to
happen more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the
"flood sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and seems
to stop the machine filling if there's too much build-up of leaking
water in the 'chassis'. The electronics must assume that if it gets
as far as the rinse cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the rest
of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the
flood sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood
is even more likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic ones that
happen during a wash cycle.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to
happen more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the
"flood sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and seems to
stop the machine filling if there's too much build-up of leaking water
in the 'chassis'. The electronics must assume that if it gets as far as
the rinse cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the rest of the
wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the flood
sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood is even more
likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic ones that
happen during a wash cycle.

I still dont buy it. Once there is a flood sensor there,
it makes no sense to not detect a catastrophic one
during the wash cycle and stop with an error code.

It also makes no sense to run the pump at a low
output during the wash phase and not just stop
with an error code when a flood is detected.

Or to have the much higher cost of a pump that
can be varied in how much it pumps either.

All dirty dishes here go into a large sink of hot water. There they
remain soaking until there are enough for the dishwasher. This works well.

Bill

Bill Wright wrote

All dirty dishes here go into a large sink of hot water. There they remain
soaking until there are enough for the dishwasher. This works well.

Works even better to put the dirty stuff in the dishwasher as it
becomes dirty and start the dishwasher when its full of dirty stuff.

On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 15:29:21 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

Bill Wright wrote

All dirty dishes here go into a large sink of hot water. There they remain
soaking until there are enough for the dishwasher. This works well.

Works even better to put the dirty stuff in the dishwasher as it
becomes dirty and start the dishwasher when its full of dirty stuff.

Since there's only the missus and me here (_almost_ empty nest
syndrome), it usually takes 3 or 4 days to accumulate enough dirty
dishes to justify runing the dishwasher.

Since the standard practice of just shoving the unrinsed dishes into
the dishwasher as per a daily wash cycle no longer applies, the dishes
get a rinse under the tap before being loaded to prevent the diswasher
from becoming a strong source of foul smells from the slowly
accumulating load of food soiled dishes over the 3 or 4 day period
between wash cycles.

Pre-rinsing also reduces the thickness of the coating of dried out
food left on the dishes which facilitates more effective cleaning.

The missus will sometimes handwash the dishes after we've had our
evening meal if we haven't yet gotten round to unloading the cleaned
dishes out of the dishwasher. We don't dump the dishes into the sink
to soak before loading them into the dishwasher. They simply get a
quick rinse under the cold tap immediately before being added to the
dishwasher.
--
J B Good

Johny B Good wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Bill Wright wrote

All dirty dishes here go into a large sink of hot water. There they
remain
soaking until there are enough for the dishwasher. This works well.

Works even better to put the dirty stuff in the dishwasher as it
becomes dirty and start the dishwasher when its full of dirty stuff.

Since there's only the missus and me here (_almost_ empty
nest syndrome), it usually takes 3 or 4 days to accumulate
enough dirty dishes to justify runing the dishwasher.

I run mine every 9 days and that's when I run out of clean beer glasses.

Since the standard practice of just shoving the unrinsed dishes
into the dishwasher as per a daily wash cycle no longer applies,

It always has for me. Works fine.

the dishes get a rinse under the tap before being loaded
to prevent the diswasher from becoming a strong source
of foul smells from the slowly accumulating load of food
soiled dishes over the 3 or 4 day period between wash cycles.

Doesn't happen here. I leave the dishwasher open
so the plates dry off so there is no smell at all.

Pre-rinsing also reduces the thickness of the coating of dried out
food left on the dishes which facilitates more effective cleaning.

My dishwashers have all worked fine without bothering.

The missus will sometimes handwash the dishes after we've
had our evening meal if we haven't yet gotten round to
unloading the cleaned dishes out of the dishwasher.

Mad. It makes a lot more sense to just leave them until
you have unloaded the clean stuff out of the dishwasher.

We don't dump the dishes into the sink to
soak before loading them into the dishwasher.
They simply get a quick rinse under the cold tap
immediately before being added to the dishwasher.

No point in doing that either. It makes a lot
more sense to just put them in the dishwasher.

In message , at 07:50:44 on Fri, 28
Nov 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to
happen more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the
"flood sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and
seems to stop the machine filling if there's too much build-up of
leaking water in the 'chassis'. The electronics must assume that
if it gets as far as the rinse cycle that the sensor can be
ignored for the rest of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the
flood sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood is
even more likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic ones
that happen during a wash cycle.

I still dont buy it. Once there is a flood sensor there,
it makes no sense to not detect a catastrophic one
during the wash cycle and stop with an error code.

Whether you buy it or not, it's how they are designed.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 07:50:44 on Fri, 28 Nov
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to
happen more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the
"flood sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and seems
to stop the machine filling if there's too much build-up of leaking
water in the 'chassis'. The electronics must assume that if it gets
as far as the rinse cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the
rest of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the flood
sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood is even more
likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic ones that
happen during a wash cycle.

I still dont buy it. Once there is a flood sensor there,
it makes no sense to not detect a catastrophic one
during the wash cycle and stop with an error code.

Whether you buy it or not, it's how they are designed.

Bull****.

In message , at 20:47:33 on Fri, 28
Nov 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems
to happen more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may
be the "flood sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand
corner and seems to stop the machine filling if there's too
much build-up of leaking water in the 'chassis'. The
electronics must assume that if it gets as far as the rinse
cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the rest of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the
flood sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood is
even more likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic ones
that happen during a wash cycle.

I still dont buy it. Once there is a flood sensor there,
it makes no sense to not detect a catastrophic one
during the wash cycle and stop with an error code.

Whether you buy it or not, it's how they are designed.

Bull****.

Suit yourself, but there's something to be learnt here. I took the
machine to bits and that's what it does.

I suppose the argument might be that a catastrophic leak already has
water all over the floor, so failing to enter a rinse cycle won't stop
you getting your feet wet.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 04:57:47 +0000, Johny B Good
wrote:


Since there's only the missus and me here (_almost_ empty nest
syndrome), it usually takes 3 or 4 days to accumulate enough dirty
dishes to justify runing the dishwasher.

Since the standard practice of just shoving the unrinsed dishes into
the dishwasher as per a daily wash cycle no longer applies, the dishes
get a rinse under the tap before being loaded to prevent the diswasher
from becoming a strong source of foul smells from the slowly
accumulating load of food soiled dishes over the 3 or 4 day period
between wash cycles.

One couple we know seem quite unconcerned that while they load the
washer their dog is also sticking its head in and actually does quite
a good job of licking the items clean.
Now after a wash cycle it should not make any difference but somehow
I'm glad we don't get invited to eat there.

G.Harman

wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 04:57:47 +0000, Johny B Good
wrote:


Since there's only the missus and me here (_almost_ empty nest
syndrome), it usually takes 3 or 4 days to accumulate enough dirty
dishes to justify runing the dishwasher.

Since the standard practice of just shoving the unrinsed dishes into
the dishwasher as per a daily wash cycle no longer applies, the dishes
get a rinse under the tap before being loaded to prevent the diswasher
from becoming a strong source of foul smells from the slowly
accumulating load of food soiled dishes over the 3 or 4 day period
between wash cycles.

One couple we know seem quite unconcerned that while they load the
washer their dog is also sticking its head in and actually does quite
a good job of licking the items clean.
Now after a wash cycle it should not make any difference but somehow
I'm glad we don't get invited to eat there.

G.Harman

I thought everyone used dogs for the "pre-wash"?

Tim

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 20:47:33 on Fri, 28 Nov
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
I've had the same problem, and it's intermittent. It also seems to
happen more on the lower temperature washes. I think it may be the
"flood sensor" which is at the very bottom lefthand corner and
seems to stop the machine filling if there's too much build-up of
leaking water in the 'chassis'. The electronics must assume that
if it gets as far as the rinse cycle that the sensor can be
ignored for the rest of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the flood
sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood is even more
likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic ones
that happen during a wash cycle.

I still dont buy it. Once there is a flood sensor there,
it makes no sense to not detect a catastrophic one
during the wash cycle and stop with an error code.

Whether you buy it or not, it's how they are designed.

Bull****.

Suit yourself, but there's something to be learnt here.

We'll see...

I took the machine to bits and that's what it does.

All you know is that there is a flood sensor, not
that it ignores flooding during the rinse cycle.

I suppose the argument might be that a catastrophic leak already has water
all over the floor,

But it wouldn't if the machine stopped with an
error code when a leak of any kind is detected.

so failing to enter a rinse cycle won't stop you getting your feet wet.

There wouldnt be any point in in having
the leak detector if that was the case.

I bet you fooled yourself because of a faulty leak detector.

In fact it wouldnt be hard to prove by deliberately putting
some water where the leak detector is. But it doesnt produce
the minimal water flow during the wash phase, because that
would mean that it would have to have a multi speed pump
so it could pump minimally during the wash phase when a
leak has been detected. And there is no point in having a
wash cycle like that which doesnt wash properly anyway.

On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:10:02 +0000, Tim+
wrote:



Since the standard practice of just shoving the unrinsed dishes into
the dishwasher as per a daily wash cycle no longer applies, the dishes
get a rinse under the tap

One couple we know seem quite unconcerned that while they load the
washer their dog is also sticking its head in and actually does quite
a good job of licking the items clean.


I thought everyone used dogs for the "pre-wash"?

I expect a lot do, but it is the thought of them having just licked
thier arse or another dogs or even eating dog **** that is a bit off
putting.

G.Harman

In message , at 10:49:43 on Sat, 29
Nov 2014, Rod Speed remarked:

t also seems to happen more on the lower temperature washes. I
think it may be the "flood sensor" which is at the very bottom
lefthand corner and seems to stop the machine filling if
there's too much build-up of leaking water in the 'chassis'.
The electronics must assume that if it gets as far as the
rinse cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the rest of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the
flood sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood
is even more likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic
ones that happen during a wash cycle.

I still dont buy it. Once there is a flood sensor there,
it makes no sense to not detect a catastrophic one
during the wash cycle and stop with an error code.

Whether you buy it or not, it's how they are designed.

Bull****.

Suit yourself, but there's something to be learnt here.

We'll see...

I took the machine to bits and that's what it does.

All you know is that there is a flood sensor, not
that it ignores flooding during the rinse cycle.

I do know because I ran the machine through numerous wash cycles, while
fiddling with all the sensors (having stripped the side off the washer),
to see what they did.

I suppose the argument might be that a catastrophic leak already has
water all over the floor,

But it wouldn't if the machine stopped with an
error code when a leak of any kind is detected.

The catastrophic leak will have dumped all the water currently in the
machine, on the floor, mid-wash-cycle. The leak detector won't be able
to predict a hose coming off, or the sump splitting.

so failing to enter a rinse cycle won't stop you getting your feet wet.

There wouldnt be any point in in having
the leak detector if that was the case.

The point is to force the user to investigate a small leak.

I bet you fooled yourself because of a faulty leak detector.

In fact it wouldnt be hard to prove by deliberately putting
some water where the leak detector is.

You don't have to do that - it's a big disc of expanded polystyrene
'floating' (in either air or water) in the bottom of the chassis. You
can push it up and down to simulate the effect of water.

But it doesnt produce
the minimal water flow during the wash phase, because that
would mean that it would have to have a multi speed pump
so it could pump minimally during the wash phase when a
leak has been detected. And there is no point in having a
wash cycle like that which doesnt wash properly anyway.

The minimal-water observed when there's a "failed to fill" wash cycle is
the dregs in the sump, which are there because the pump doesn't
completely empty it plus the flow-back from the 'uphill' bit of the
drain pipe, which doesn't have a non-return valve upstream of the pump.

The correct sequence of operation is for the pump to operate briefly to
make sure the sump is as empty as possible, followed by the inlet system
trickling water in via the water softener. If you listen carefully you
can hear the gurgling of the inlet water through the various pipes,
before the main circulation pump starts thrashing the water around.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

t also seems to happen more on the lower temperature washes. I
think it may be the "flood sensor" which is at the very bottom
lefthand corner and seems to stop the machine filling if
there's too much build-up of leaking water in the 'chassis'.
The electronics must assume that if it gets as far as the rinse
cycle that the sensor can be ignored for the rest of the wash.

That last doesnt seem very plausible. Why would it ignore the
flood sensor at the end of the cycle when that is when a flood is
even more likely to happen ?

Because it's detecting long term minor leaks, not catastrophic ones
that happen during a wash cycle.

I still dont buy it. Once there is a flood sensor there,
it makes no sense to not detect a catastrophic one
during the wash cycle and stop with an error code.

Whether you buy it or not, it's how they are designed.

Bull****.

Suit yourself, but there's something to be learnt here.

We'll see...

I took the machine to bits and that's what it does.

All you know is that there is a flood sensor, not
that it ignores flooding during the rinse cycle.

I do know

Like hell you do.

because I ran the machine through numerous wash cycles, while fiddling
with all the sensors (having stripped the side off the washer), to see
what they did.

But you can't have seen it do the wash phase with very
little water pressure during the wash phase because
it doesnt have a variable water pressure pump.

I suppose the argument might be that a catastrophic leak already has
water all over the floor,

But it wouldn't if the machine stopped with an
error code when a leak of any kind is detected.

The catastrophic leak will have dumped all the water currently in the
machine, on the floor, mid-wash-cycle.

BULL****. The first time if sees water in what you call the
chassis, stopping everything with an error code doesnt
see anything like dumping all the water on the floor.

AND the OP never saw anything like all the water on the floor either.

The leak detector won't be able to predict a hose coming off, or the sump
splitting.

Doesnt need to PREDICT a damned thing, just detect water
in what you call the chassis and stop with an error code.

so failing to enter a rinse cycle won't stop you getting your feet wet.

There wouldnt be any point in in having
the leak detector if that was the case.

The point is to force the user to investigate a small leak.

Even sillier than you usually manage. You have claimed that
it doesnt do a damned thing about water all over the floor
during the wash phase and just carrys on regardless and
dumps the water used in the rinse phase on the floor as well.

Makes a hell of a lot more sense to stop with an error code
when any water is detected in what you call the chassis and
have the manual report that that error code means that there
has been a leak.

I bet you fooled yourself because of a faulty leak detector.

In fact it wouldnt be hard to prove by deliberately putting some water
where the leak detector is.

You don't have to do that - it's a big disc of expanded polystyrene
'floating' (in either air or water) in the bottom of the chassis. You can
push it up and down to simulate the effect of water.

And when you do that, you won't see the dishwasher reduce
the water pressure during the wash phase because the pump
can't do that. And see it do the rinse phase as normal.

But it doesnt produce the minimal water flow during the wash phase,
because that would mean that it would have to have a multi speed pump so
it could pump minimally during the wash phase when a leak has been
detected. And there is no point in having a wash cycle like that which
doesnt wash properly anyway.

The minimal-water observed when there's a "failed to fill" wash cycle

Why should it fail to fill when it detects water in what you call the
chassis ?

is the dregs in the sump, which are there because the pump doesn't
completely empty it plus the flow-back from the 'uphill' bit of the drain
pipe, which doesn't have a non-return valve upstream of the pump.

BULL****.

The correct sequence of operation is for the pump to operate briefly to
make sure the sump is as empty as possible, followed by the inlet system
trickling water in via the water softener.

There is no water softener.

If you listen carefully you can hear the gurgling of the inlet water
through the various pipes, before the main circulation pump starts
thrashing the water around.

Still makes no sense to carry on regardless with **** all water in the
wash phase when water is detected in what you call the chassis and
to then completely ignore the water detector in what you call the
chassis and do the rinse phase as normal and dump all that water
on the floor.

And the OP never said that he gets water all over the floor in the rinse
phase.

ALL he said is that he gets **** all water pumped around in the wash phase.

In message , at 21:28:39 on Sat, 29
Nov 2014, Rod Speed remarked:

I ran the machine through numerous wash cycles, while fiddling with
all the sensors (having stripped the side off the washer), to see what
they did.

But you can't have seen it do the wash phase with very
little water pressure during the wash phase because
it doesnt have a variable water pressure pump.

The reason it has very little water pressure is because it has very
little WATER. The pump is trying to circulate the dregs in the sump, and
the result is only a dribble getting as far as the rotating arm at the
top of the washer.

I suppose the argument might be that a catastrophic leak already
has water all over the floor,

But it wouldn't if the machine stopped with an
error code when a leak of any kind is detected.

The catastrophic leak will have dumped all the water currently in the
machine, on the floor, mid-wash-cycle.

BULL****. The first time if sees water in what you call the
chassis, stopping everything with an error code doesnt
see anything like dumping all the water on the floor.

It's two different scenarios. One is a slight leak which the floating
detector picks up and stops it filling at the start of a cycle. The
other is (eg) a hose splitting mid wash.

AND the OP never saw anything like all the water on the floor either.

That's right - he hasn't got a catastrophic leak.

[Snip lots of stuff that's completely misunderstood the failure
symptoms].

You don't have to do that - it's a big disc of expanded polystyrene
'floating' (in either air or water) in the bottom of the chassis. You
can push it up and down to simulate the effect of water.

And when you do that, you won't see the dishwasher reduce
the water pressure during the wash phase because the pump
can't do that. And see it do the rinse phase as normal.

See above, it's not a multi-pressure pump, but the regular pump having
nothing very much to pump.

But it doesnt produce the minimal water flow during the wash
phase, because that would mean that it would have to have a multi
speed pump so it could pump minimally during the wash phase when a
leak has been detected. And there is no point in having a wash cycle
like that which doesnt wash properly anyway.

The minimal-water observed when there's a "failed to fill" wash cycle

Why should it fail to fill when it detects water in what you call the
chassis ?

To avoid pouring water into a washing machine with a leak. I'd prefer it
to give a visible/audible error indication, but that's not how it works.

If the user then subverts the system by pouring a couple of pans-full of
water in by hand, it carries on (with some water available to pump now)
and completes the rinses too.

is the dregs in the sump, which are there because the pump doesn't
completely empty it plus the flow-back from the 'uphill' bit of the
drain pipe, which doesn't have a non-return valve upstream of the pump.

BULL****.

Nope, that's all completely correct.

The correct sequence of operation is for the pump to operate briefly
to make sure the sump is as empty as possible, followed by the inlet
system trickling water in via the water softener.

There is no water softener.

What do YOU call the thing with salt in it?

If you listen carefully you can hear the gurgling of the inlet water
through the various pipes, before the main circulation pump starts
thrashing the water around.

Still makes no sense to carry on regardless

It doesn't carry on regardless, you have to put water in by hand.

with **** all water in the
wash phase when water is detected in what you call the chassis and
to then completely ignore the water detector in what you call the
chassis

What do YOU call the part of the washer that comprises the floor and the
frame which holds the rest of it up?

and do the rinse phase as normal and dump all that water
on the floor.

The leak detector is for small leaks. In my washer there was about half
a cup-full in the float-compartment when I first started debugging it.

And the OP never said that he gets water all over the floor in the
rinse phase.

I know. You've made that bit up.

ALL he said is that he gets **** all water pumped around in the wash phase.

I know, and it's that symptom which I've been explaining.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I ran the machine through numerous wash cycles, while fiddling with all
the sensors (having stripped the side off the washer), to see what they
did.

But you can't have seen it do the wash phase with very
little water pressure during the wash phase because
it doesnt have a variable water pressure pump.

The reason it has very little water pressure is because it has very little
WATER.

Bull****. There is either water to pump or there isnt. And it isnt
actually stupid enough to carry on doing the wash phase when
there is **** all water in it, it just stops with the Check Water
Supply light on.

The pump is trying to circulate the dregs in the sump, and the result is
only a dribble getting as far as the rotating arm at the top of the
washer.

Bull****.

I suppose the argument might be that a catastrophic leak already has
water all over the floor,

But it wouldn't if the machine stopped with an
error code when a leak of any kind is detected.

The catastrophic leak will have dumped all the water currently in the
machine, on the floor, mid-wash-cycle.

BULL****. The first time it sees water in what you call the
chassis, stopping everything with an error code doesnt
see anything like dumping all the water on the floor.

It's two different scenarios. One is a slight leak which the floating
detector picks up and stops it filling at the start of a cycle. The other
is (eg) a hose splitting mid wash.

It makes absolutely no sense at all to stop filling it when
a slight leak is detected, carry on regardless with the wash
phase with hardly any water at all, and then do the full fill
with rinse water and ignore the detection of the leak.

And you wont see a slight leak very early in the wash phase
anyway, you will only see that when there is full pressure of
water in the pump system when there is enough water to pump.

AND the OP never saw anything like all the water on the floor either.

That's right - he hasn't got a catastrophic leak.

[Snip lots of stuff that's completely misunderstood the failure symptoms].

You dont have a ****ing clue about the most basic dishwasher design.

You don't have to do that - it's a big disc of expanded polystyrene
'floating' (in either air or water) in the bottom of the chassis. You
can push it up and down to simulate the effect of water.

And when you do that, you won't see the dishwasher reduce
the water pressure during the wash phase because the pump
can't do that. And see it do the rinse phase as normal.

See above,

Completely useless.

it's not a multi-pressure pump, but the regular pump having nothing very
much to pump.

Its either got water to pump or no water to pump.

No one is going to run a pump like that dry without
water to pump because that will kill the pump.

But it doesnt produce the minimal water flow during the wash phase,
because that would mean that it would have to have a multi speed pump
so it could pump minimally during the wash phase when a leak has been
detected. And there is no point in having a wash cycle like that which
doesnt wash properly anyway.

The minimal-water observed when there's a "failed to fill" wash cycle

Why should it fail to fill when it detects water in what you call the
chassis ?

To avoid pouring water into a washing machine with a leak.

But its fine to do that in the rinse phase ? Even sillier than you usually
manage.

I'd prefer it to give a visible/audible error indication, but that's not
how it works.

It is actually, there is a lack of water indication.

If the user then subverts the system by pouring a couple of pans-full of
water in by hand, it carries on (with some water available to pump now)
and completes the rinses too.

Bull****.

is the dregs in the sump, which are there because the pump doesn't
completely empty it plus the flow-back from the 'uphill' bit of the
drain pipe, which doesn't have a non-return valve upstream of the pump.

BULL****.

Nope, that's all completely correct.

Bull****.

The correct sequence of operation is for the pump to operate briefly to
make sure the sump is as empty as possible, followed by the inlet system
trickling water in via the water softener.

There is no water softener.

What do YOU call the thing with salt in it?

If you listen carefully you can hear the gurgling of the inlet water
through the various pipes, before the main circulation pump starts
thrashing the water around.

Still makes no sense to carry on regardless

It doesn't carry on regardless,

Of course it does, that's what the OP says happens,
it carrys on regardless with the pump allegedly
running dry according to you, and ****s the pump.

you have to put water in by hand.

He doesnt put water in by hand.

with **** all water in the wash phase when water is detected in what you
call the chassis and to then completely ignore the water detector in what
you call the chassis

What do YOU call the part of the washer that comprises the floor and the
frame which holds the rest of it up?

Irrelevant, I was just being clear about where that water is according to
you.

and do the rinse phase as normal and dump all that water on the floor.

The leak detector is for small leaks.

And just ignores big leaks ? Even sillier than you usually manage.

And there can't be small leaks if the pump
hasnt got enough water to pump.

In my washer there was about half a cup-full in the float-compartment when
I first started debugging it.

But that will also detect big leaks, stupid.

And the OP never said that he gets water all over the floor in the rinse
phase.

I know. You've made that bit up.

Everyone can see for themselves that you are lying thru your teeth on that
last bit.

ALL he said is that he gets **** all water pumped around in the wash
phase.

I know, and it's that symptom which I've been explaining.

But can't explain why Bosch would actually be stupid enough
to **** the pump by running it with not enough water to pump
and even more stupidly ignores the leak detector in the rinse
phase and even more stupidly ignores big leaks completely.

In message , at 05:19:27 on Mon, 1 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I ran the machine through numerous wash cycles, while fiddling with
all the sensors (having stripped the side off the washer), to see
what they did.

But you can't have seen it do the wash phase with very
little water pressure during the wash phase because
it doesnt have a variable water pressure pump.

The reason it has very little water pressure is because it has very
little WATER.

Bull****. There is either water to pump or there isnt.

There's enough water to pump it up to the height of the rotating arm,
but then there's no more to actually pump it out to do the washing.

And it isnt actually stupid enough to carry on doing the wash phase
when there is **** all water in it,

But it does. That's exactly the fault condition the OP reported and I
have observed repeatedly at first hand on my machine.

it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light. It might help if there was.

It's two different scenarios. One is a slight leak which the floating
detector picks up and stops it filling at the start of a cycle. The
other is (eg) a hose splitting mid wash.

It makes absolutely no sense at all to stop filling it when
a slight leak is detected, carry on regardless with the wash
phase with hardly any water at all, and then do the full fill
with rinse water and ignore the detection of the leak.

But that's what it does, "making sense" or otherwise.

Perhaps you could concentrate on how to fix the condition, rather than
denying it exists?

And you wont see a slight leak very early in the wash phase
anyway, you will only see that when there is full pressure of
water in the pump system when there is enough water to pump.

A slight leak can be the result of a failing seal in the sump, or a
small split in the outflow pipe. Neither of those is sensitive to the
pumping pressure.

AND the OP never saw anything like all the water on the floor either.

That's right - he hasn't got a catastrophic leak.

[Snip lots of stuff that's completely misunderstood the failure symptoms].

You dont have a ****ing clue about the most basic dishwasher design.

Oddly enough, that's what I'm beginning to think about yourself, given
your comments to date.

there is a lack of water indication.

Where? The dishwasher I have in front of me has precisely one
"indicator" which lights up when the cycle is completely finished.

There is no water softener.

What do YOU call the thing with salt in it?

Hello??

with **** all water in the wash phase when water is detected in what
you call the chassis and to then completely ignore the water
detector in what you call the chassis

What do YOU call the part of the washer that comprises the floor and
the frame which holds the rest of it up?

Irrelevant, I was just being clear about where that water is according
to you.

Extreme bottom left hand corner, at the front.

And there can't be small leaks if the pump
hasnt got enough water to pump.

The leaks come from the water left in the sump from one day to the next.

ALL he said is that he gets **** all water pumped around in the wash
phase.

I know, and it's that symptom which I've been explaining.

But can't explain why Bosch would actually be stupid enough
to **** the pump by running it with not enough water to pump
and even more stupidly ignores the leak detector in the rinse
phase and even more stupidly ignores big leaks completely.

You'd have to ask Bosch.

Or alternatively, do what I've done and take one apart and work out what
all the various pipes and switches do, and run it through cycles
simulating various switch connections.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I ran the machine through numerous wash cycles, while fiddling with
all the sensors (having stripped the side off the washer), to see
what they did.

But you can't have seen it do the wash phase with very
little water pressure during the wash phase because
it doesnt have a variable water pressure pump.

The reason it has very little water pressure is because it has very
little WATER.

Bull****. There is either water to pump or there isnt.

There's enough water to pump it up to the height of the rotating arm, but
then there's no more to actually pump it out to do the washing.

That's bull**** with that sort of high pressure pump. If it isnt able to
get a decent amount of water out of the rotating arm, it can only be
because there is so little water that is sucking almost all air and very
little water.

And it isnt actually stupid enough to carry on doing the wash phase when
there is **** all water in it,

But it does.

You dont know that.

That's exactly the fault condition the OP reported and I have observed
repeatedly at first hand on my machine.

There is no way for you to see how much water is
coming out of the arm when the door is closed.

Basic physics says that the only way you can get very little
water out of the rotating arm is for the pump to be sucking
almost all air and **** all water from where it pumps from.

it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light.

Bull****.

It might help if there was.

It's two different scenarios. One is a slight leak which the floating
detector picks up and stops it filling at the start of a cycle. The
other is (eg) a hose splitting mid wash.

It makes absolutely no sense at all to stop filling it when
a slight leak is detected, carry on regardless with the wash
phase with hardly any water at all, and then do the full fill
with rinse water and ignore the detection of the leak.

But that's what it does, "making sense" or otherwise.

Bull****.

Perhaps you could concentrate on how to fix the condition,

To do that you have to determine what the problem is.

rather than denying it exists?

How odd that no one else world wide has reported that stupid behaviour.

And you wont see a slight leak very early in the wash phase
anyway, you will only see that when there is full pressure of
water in the pump system when there is enough water to pump.

A slight leak can be the result of a failing seal in the sump, or a small
split in the outflow pipe.

That last isnt going to happen during the wash phase
before it pumps anything out of the dishwasher.

Neither of those is sensitive to the pumping pressure.

The first needs to have a decent amount
of water in the sump before it can leak.

there is a lack of water indication.

Where?

Same place as all the other ones.

The dishwasher I have in front of me has precisely one "indicator" which
lights up when the cycle is completely finished.

My Bosch Classic Electronic has 4.

ALL he said is that he gets **** all water pumped around in the wash
phase.

I know, and it's that symptom which I've been explaining.

But can't explain why Bosch would actually be stupid enough
to **** the pump by running it with not enough water to pump
and even more stupidly ignores the leak detector in the rinse
phase and even more stupidly ignores big leaks completely.

You'd have to ask Bosch.

No point when no one else world wide has reported
their Bosch doing anything that stupid and howling
about it needing a new pump whenever it leaks.

Or alternatively, do what I've done and take one apart and work out what
all the various pipes and switches do, and run it through cycles
simulating various switch connections.

And fooled yourself in the process.

Like I said, its trivially easy to fool it by lifting the leak
detector and checking how much water it uses in the
wash phase by catching it and measuring it. It doesnt
do the wash phase with **** all water when you do that.

In message , at 09:55:32 on Mon, 1 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:

There's enough water to pump it up to the height of the rotating arm,
but then there's no more to actually pump it out to do the washing.

That's bull**** with that sort of high pressure pump. If it isnt able to
get a decent amount of water out of the rotating arm, it can only be
because there is so little water that is sucking almost all air and very
little water.

Yes, that's exactly what's going on, because the only water in the sump
is that left over from the last wash.

And it isnt actually stupid enough to carry on doing the wash phase
when there is **** all water in it,

But it does.

You dont know that.

I've observed it many times, while experimenting with my 'broken'
washer.

That's exactly the fault condition the OP reported and I have
observed repeatedly at first hand on my machine.

There is no way for you to see how much water is
coming out of the arm when the door is closed.

It's easy; you open the door a crack and can see how much water is
splashing around. And it sounds quite different too - the pump is quite
clearly "gasping" for water, rather than there being a "sloshing around"
noise.

Basic physics says that the only way you can get very little
water out of the rotating arm is for the pump to be sucking
almost all air and **** all water from where it pumps from.

it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light.

Bull****.

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one light,
called "End"; plus the lights in the four different programme buttons
which merely say which one you've selected).

Perhaps you could concentrate on how to fix the condition,

To do that you have to determine what the problem is.

As you've been told several times now, the washing cycle commences with
no more water in it than was left from the previous wash.

Over to you...

rather than denying it exists?

How odd that no one else world wide has reported that stupid behaviour.

There's me and the OP. And doing online searches the only solution
people offered was that the inlet valve was faulty. But if that's the
case, it wouldn't operate properly to fill with rinse water. And I took
it out and tested it, and it was working OK.

And you wont see a slight leak very early in the wash phase
anyway, you will only see that when there is full pressure of
water in the pump system when there is enough water to pump.

A slight leak can be the result of a failing seal in the sump, or a
small split in the outflow pipe.

That last isnt going to happen during the wash phase
before it pumps anything out of the dishwasher.

It could, because the outlet pipe is about two inches under water while
it's washing. The exhaust pump is a very simple centrifugal one (the
same as on clothes washers), and if you took off the output pipe, water
would flow through it by gravity.

there is a lack of water indication.

Where?

Same place as all the other ones.

Mine doesn't have one.

The dishwasher I have in front of me has precisely one "indicator"
which lights up when the cycle is completely finished.

My Bosch Classic Electronic has 4.

Bully for you.

alternatively, do what I've done and take one apart and work out what
all the various pipes and switches do, and run it through cycles
simulating various switch connections.

And fooled yourself in the process.

Like I said, its trivially easy to fool it by lifting the leak
detector and checking how much water it uses in the
wash phase by catching it and measuring it.

I don't need to measure it, I can clearly see that no water is added by
observing the transparent piping on the side of the washer.

It doesnt
do the wash phase with **** all water when you do that.

Mine does (and apparently so does the OP's).
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 01 Dec 2014 15:41:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:


it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light.

Bull****.

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one light,
called "End"; plus the lights in the four different programme buttons
which merely say which one you've selected).

So, it's a different model. My Bosch dishwasher has lights for water
supply, salt and rinse aid.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There's enough water to pump it up to the height of the rotating arm,
but then there's no more to actually pump it out to do the washing.

That's bull**** with that sort of high pressure pump. If it isnt able to
get a decent amount of water out of the rotating arm, it can only be
because there is so little water that is sucking almost all air and very
little water.

Yes, that's exactly what's going on, because the only water in the sump is
that left over from the last wash.

Bull****. If that was happening the pump wouldnt last long doing
the whole of the wash phase with that little water and the machine
would detect that the heating of the water wasnt working as well.

And its completely trivial to simulate how much water is in
the machine in the wash phase by turning off the water supply
completely so it can't add any water at all. You dont in fact
see it do the wash phase at all if you do that because it knows
that there isnt any water in the machine. Its not stupid enough
to **** the pump by pumping just air for the whole wash phase.

And it isnt actually stupid enough to carry on doing the wash phase
when there is **** all water in it,

But it does.

You dont know that.

I've observed it many times, while experimenting with my 'broken' washer.

It took you that long to work out that it was getting
water into what you call the chassis ? I dont believe you.

Basic physics says that the only way you can get very little
water out of the rotating arm is for the pump to be sucking
almost all air and **** all water from where it pumps from.

it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light.

Bull****.

Where is it then?

Same place all the lights are.

Perhaps you could concentrate on how to fix the condition,

To do that you have to determine what the problem is.

As you've been told several times now, the washing cycle commences with no
more water in it than was left from the previous wash.

Even sillier than you usually manage. It in fact
pumps out the dishwasher when it starts up.

rather than denying it exists?

How odd that no one else world wide has reported that stupid behaviour.

There's me and the OP.

You dont know that the OP is seeing his dishwasher doing
the entire wash phase with no water added at all after its
pumped out to the outlet as it starts. In fact we know that
it has more water than that because he does see some water
in the dishwasher when he opens the door in the wash phase.

And doing online searches the only solution people offered was that the
inlet valve was faulty. But if that's the case, it wouldn't operate
properly to fill with rinse water.

How odd that no tech ever said that
the problem is a not very bad leak.

And I took it out and tested it, and it was working OK.

And you wont see a slight leak very early in the wash phase
anyway, you will only see that when there is full pressure of
water in the pump system when there is enough water to pump.

A slight leak can be the result of a failing seal in the sump, or a
small split in the outflow pipe.

That last isnt going to happen during the wash phase
before it pumps anything out of the dishwasher.

It could,

Bull****.

because the outlet pipe is about two inches under water while it's
washing.

Not when its got a leak and that means that what remains in the
dishwasher overnight leaks out before the dishwasher is started.

The exhaust pump is a very simple centrifugal one (the same as on clothes
washers), and if you took off the output pipe, water would flow through it
by gravity.

But there is **** all water left in the dishwasher at the end
of the use, so there is **** all to drain back in there overnight
and so **** all to leak into what you call the chassis.

alternatively, do what I've done and take one apart and work out what
all the various pipes and switches do, and run it through cycles
simulating various switch connections.

And fooled yourself in the process.

Like I said, its trivially easy to fool it by lifting the leak
detector and checking how much water it uses in the
wash phase by catching it and measuring it.

I don't need to measure it, I can clearly see that no water is added by
observing the transparent piping on the side of the washer.

If no water is added at all, there isnt
anything to pump thru the rotating arms.

It doesntdo the wash phase with **** all water when you do that.

Mine does

Then there must be a problem that prevents the
dishwasher being emptied at the end of its use.

(and apparently so does the OP's).

You dont know that. ALL you know is that it doesnt
spray as much during the wash phase as it does in the
rinse phase. You dont even know that his Bosch is
anything like yours either.

In message , at 17:56:42 on Mon, 1
Dec 2014, Bob Eager remarked:
it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light.

Bull****.

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one light,
called "End"; plus the lights in the four different programme buttons
which merely say which one you've selected).

So, it's a different model.

Clearly. The problem is that Ron seems to think that because his a
different model, mine isn't broken.

My Bosch dishwasher has lights for water supply, salt and rinse aid.

Previous washers of mine have had lights for salt and rinse aid.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 07:47:20 on Tue, 2 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There's enough water to pump it up to the height of the rotating
arm, but then there's no more to actually pump it out to do the
washing.

That's bull**** with that sort of high pressure pump. If it isnt able to
get a decent amount of water out of the rotating arm, it can only be
because there is so little water that is sucking almost all air and very
little water.

Yes, that's exactly what's going on, because the only water in the
sump is that left over from the last wash.

Bull****. If that was happening the pump wouldnt last long doing
the whole of the wash phase with that little water

The pump's unlikely to be damaged by running with a low water supply,
and there is some water in the pump itself.

When this fault condition happens, it's fairly obvious because the
dishes don't get washed. And when you stand next to it you can't hear
the wash-water sloshing around.

and the machine
would detect that the heating of the water wasnt working as well.

It'll be heating the little water there is, and then turning off. It
won't have enough intelligence in the controller to think "hmm, that
heated up faster than normal".

And its completely trivial to simulate how much water is in
the machine in the wash phase by turning off the water supply
completely so it can't add any water at all.

Yes, that would be one way.

You dont in fact
see it do the wash phase at all if you do that because it knows
that there isnt any water in the machine. Its not stupid enough
to **** the pump by pumping just air for the whole wash phase.

It's pumping the residual water in the sump. That's enough to produce a
trickle from the rotating arm, but not enough to actually do any
washing.

And it isnt actually stupid enough to carry on doing the wash
phase when there is **** all water in it,

But it does.

You dont know that.

I've observed it many times, while experimenting with my 'broken' washer.

It took you that long to work out that it was getting
water into what you call the chassis ? I dont believe you.

It didn't take long. As soon as it stopped washing the dishes properly I
took some time to stand next to it after I'd started it (rather than
leaving the kitchen) and it was obvious from the lack of "sloshing
noise" that the water fill wasn't working.

For a few days I worked around this by opening it up when it had been
running about a minute, and added water by hand.

Then I took a day off work and removed the dishwasher from under the
counter, took the side off, and started debugging what was wrong with
it. It was then that I found the flood detector, and saw it had some
water under it.

Basic physics says that the only way you can get very little
water out of the rotating arm is for the pump to be sucking
almost all air and **** all water from where it pumps from.

it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light.

Bull****.

Where is it then?

Same place all the lights are.

Which is on the front of a different model!

Perhaps you could concentrate on how to fix the condition,

To do that you have to determine what the problem is.

As you've been told several times now, the washing cycle commences
with no more water in it than was left from the previous wash.

Even sillier than you usually manage. It in fact
pumps out the dishwasher when it starts up.

It doesn't pump it all out, and as I've told you before there's the
back-flow water that was in the uphill bit of the drain pipe.

rather than denying it exists?

How odd that no one else world wide has reported that stupid behaviour.

There's me and the OP.

You dont know that the OP is seeing his dishwasher doing
the entire wash phase with no water added at all after its
pumped out to the outlet as it starts. In fact we know that
it has more water than that because he does see some water
in the dishwasher when he opens the door in the wash phase.

What he described is the same as I observe. The residual water in the
sump.

And doing online searches the only solution people offered was that
the inlet valve was faulty. But if that's the case, it wouldn't
operate properly to fill with rinse water.

How odd that no tech ever said that
the problem is a not very bad leak.

One online resource mentioned the flood detector, but in general the
"help" sites are about as useful as people saying "re-install Windows"
when anything goes wrong with your Windows PC.

And I took it out and tested it, and it was working OK.

And you wont see a slight leak very early in the wash phase
anyway, you will only see that when there is full pressure of
water in the pump system when there is enough water to pump.

A slight leak can be the result of a failing seal in the sump, or a
small split in the outflow pipe.

That last isnt going to happen during the wash phase
before it pumps anything out of the dishwasher.

It could,

Bull****.

because the outlet pipe is about two inches under water while it's
washing.

Not when its got a leak and that means that what remains in the
dishwasher overnight leaks out before the dishwasher is started.

Depends how serious a leak. It could be as little as a drip every ten
seconds.

The exhaust pump is a very simple centrifugal one (the same as on
clothes washers), and if you took off the output pipe, water would
flow through it by gravity.

But there is **** all water left in the dishwasher at the end
of the use,

That's not the case. There's more than you imagine.

so there is **** all to drain back in there overnight
and so **** all to leak into what you call the chassis.

alternatively, do what I've done and take one apart and work out
what all the various pipes and switches do, and run it through
cycles simulating various switch connections.

And fooled yourself in the process.

Like I said, its trivially easy to fool it by lifting the leak
detector and checking how much water it uses in the
wash phase by catching it and measuring it.

I don't need to measure it, I can clearly see that no water is added
by observing the transparent piping on the side of the washer.

If no water is added at all, there isnt
anything to pump thru the rotating arms.

We won't make any progress if you continue to be in denial about the
residual water.

ps. Still waiting to hear what name you give the water softener.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Bob Eager remarked:

it just stops with the Check Water Supply light on.

There's no such light.

Bull****.

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one light,
called "End"; plus the lights in the four different programme buttons
which merely say which one you've selected).

So, it's a different model.

Clearly. The problem is that Ron seems to think that
because his a different model, mine isn't broken.

I clearly said that yours is broken, but that your claim that
it furiously pumps for the whole wash phase with no added
water at all is clearly just plain wrong because there would
be nothing to pump at all if it actually did that.

And you have absolutely no idea what model the OP has either.

In message , at 05:52:08 on Wed, 3 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one light,
called "End"; plus the lights in the four different programme buttons
which merely say which one you've selected).

So, it's a different model.

Clearly. The problem is that Ron seems to think that because his a
different model, mine isn't broken.

I clearly said that yours is broken, but that your claim that
it furiously pumps for the whole wash phase with no added
water at all is clearly just plain wrong because there would
be nothing to pump at all if it actually did that.

Wrong wrong wrong for the umpteenth time. There's enough residual water
in the sump to do that.

And you have absolutely no idea what model the OP has either.

I know that his symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

Are you yet in a position to suggest what we might do to fix the
machines?

ps Still waiting for your name for the water softener.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There's enough water to pump it up to the height of the rotating arm,
but then there's no more to actually pump it out to do the washing.

That's bull**** with that sort of high pressure pump. If it isnt able
to get a decent amount of water out of the rotating arm, it can only be
because there is so little water that is sucking almost all air and
very little water.

Yes, that's exactly what's going on, because the only water in the sump
is that left over from the last wash.

Bull****. If that was happening the pump wouldnt last long doing the
whole of the wash phase with that little water

The pump's unlikely to be damaged by running with a low water supply,

Bull**** with your stupid claim that it adds no water at
all because it sees water in the chassis when it starts after
it pumps what has drained back overnight out the outlet.

and there is some water in the pump itself.

Not when its pumped what has drained back over
night out the outlet and has not added any water
at all when it detects water in the chassis.

When this fault condition happens, it's fairly obvious because the dishes
don't get washed. And when you stand next to it you can't hear the
wash-water sloshing around.

I just dont believe that Bosch is actually stupid enough
to go thru the entire wash phase with no water at all in
the dishwasher. And then do the rinse phase as usual,
even tho its detected water in the chassis.

Particularly as NO ONE has ever reported
that massive design flaw world wide.

and the machine would detect that the heating of the water wasnt working
as well.

It'll be heating the little water there is,

There is no water because all dishwashers pump what
they can out the outlet as they start to get rid of the
water that has drained back into the sump overnight.

You claim that it adds no water at all because it detects
water in the chassis. So there would be no water at all.

and then turning off. It won't have enough intelligence in the controller
to think "hmm, that heated up faster than normal".

There is no water to pump.

And its completely trivial to simulate how much water is in the machine
in the wash phase by turning off the water supply completely so it can't
add any water at all.

Yes, that would be one way.

And if you did that you would find that the dishwasher
isnt actually stupid enough to go do the entire wash
phase with no water in the machine at all.

You dont in fact see it do the wash phase at all if you do that because
it knows that there isnt any water in the machine. Its not stupid enough
to **** the pump by pumping just air for the whole wash phase.

It's pumping the residual water in the sump.

There is no residual water in the sump. ALL dishwasher pump the
sump to the outlet when they start, to get rid of any water in the
sump because that has drained back with the machine idle and
could well have been sitting in the sump for days or weeks and
the last thing you want is to have that stagnant water being
pumped around the dishes you are trying to clean.

That's enough to produce a trickle from the rotating arm,

BULL****.

but not enough to actually do any washing.

And it isnt actually stupid enough to carry on doing the wash phase
when there is **** all water in it,

But it does.

You dont know that.

I've observed it many times, while experimenting with my 'broken'
washer.

It took you that long to work out that it was getting
water into what you call the chassis ? I dont believe you.

It didn't take long. As soon as it stopped washing the dishes properly I
took some time to stand next to it after I'd started it (rather than
leaving the kitchen) and it was obvious from the lack of "sloshing noise"
that the water fill wasn't working.

And yet you claimed to have done that 'many times'

For a few days I worked around this by opening it up when it had been
running about a minute, and added water by hand.

Mad.

Then I took a day off work and removed the dishwasher from under the
counter, took the side off, and started debugging what was wrong with it.
It was then that I found the flood detector, and saw it had some water
under it.

Perhaps you could concentrate on how to fix the condition,

To do that you have to determine what the problem is.

As you've been told several times now, the washing cycle commences with
no more water in it than was left from the previous wash.

Even sillier than you usually manage. It in fact
pumps out the dishwasher when it starts up.

It doesn't pump it all out,

It does actually, all that has drained back into the sump since the last
use.

Dishwashers have to do that because what is in the sump may
well have been there for days or weeks and the last thing you
want to do is have the stagnant water being pumped around
the dishes you are trying to clean.

and as I've told you before there's the back-flow water that was in the
uphill bit of the drain pipe.

I dont believe that either. It may well
be in the PUMP but not in the SUMP.

rather than denying it exists?

How odd that no one else world wide has reported that stupid behaviour.

There's me and the OP.

You dont know that the OP is seeing his dishwasher doing
the entire wash phase with no water added at all after its
pumped out to the outlet as it starts. In fact we know that
it has more water than that because he does see some water
in the dishwasher when he opens the door in the wash phase.

What he described is the same as I observe.

ONLY as far as less than normal water flow in the wash phase is concerned.

The residual water in the sump.

You dont know that in his case.

Or that he has the same model you have either.

And doing online searches the only solution people offered was that the
inlet valve was faulty. But if that's the case, it wouldn't operate
properly to fill with rinse water.

How odd that no tech ever said that
the problem is a not very bad leak.

One online resource mentioned the flood detector,

There is a lot more than one that does that.

but in general the "help" sites are about as useful as people saying
"re-install Windows" when anything goes wrong with your Windows PC.

That is just plain wrong with the sites that sell parts for dishwashers.

And I took it out and tested it, and it was working OK.

And you wont see a slight leak very early in the wash phase
anyway, you will only see that when there is full pressure of
water in the pump system when there is enough water to pump.

A slight leak can be the result of a failing seal in the sump, or a
small split in the outflow pipe.

That last isnt going to happen during the wash phase
before it pumps anything out of the dishwasher.

It could,

Bull****.

because the outlet pipe is about two inches under water while it's
washing.

Not when its got a leak and that means that what remains in the
dishwasher overnight leaks out before the dishwasher is started.

Depends how serious a leak. It could be as little as a drip every ten
seconds.

That isnt going to be detected by the flood sensor
because the most that can ever end up in the chassis
is what is in the sump after the final pump out. **** all.

That isnt going to produce a drip every 10 seconds
with no pressure behind it, just the minimal amount
that drains back into the sump overnight. That is
going to see a hell of a lot more than a drip every
10 seconds when the sump is full and doing the
rinse phase.

The exhaust pump is a very simple centrifugal one (the same as on
clothes washers), and if you took off the output pipe, water would flow
through it by gravity.

But there is **** all water left in the dishwasher at the end of the use,

That's not the case. There's more than you imagine.

Wrong. I am currently running mine on 6' wide concrete
slab outside the back of the house while I decided that
it would do a good job on the full sized beer bottles I
use to brew beer in, so I can see how much water it
pumps out of the sump when I start the dishwasher.

Its **** all.

so there is **** all to drain back in there overnight
and so **** all to leak into what you call the chassis.

alternatively, do what I've done and take one apart and work out what
all the various pipes and switches do, and run it through cycles
simulating various switch connections.

And fooled yourself in the process.

Like I said, its trivially easy to fool it by lifting the leak
detector and checking how much water it uses in the
wash phase by catching it and measuring it.

I don't need to measure it, I can clearly see that no water is added by
observing the transparent piping on the side of the washer.

If no water is added at all, there isnt
anything to pump thru the rotating arms.

We won't make any progress if you continue to be in denial about the
residual water.

I'm not in denial, I KNOW that there is **** all
in the sump when the dishwasher starts, just
what drains back after the last use. **** all.

And its completely trivial to prove that there
is nothing to pump by turning the water supply
off so you know that none got added and see
the dishwasher stop and whine about no water too.