In message , at 06:22:43 on Wed, 3 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:

The pump's unlikely to be damaged by running with a low water supply,

Bull**** with your stupid claim that it adds no water at
all because it sees water in the chassis when it starts after
it pumps what has drained back overnight out the outlet.

That's what happens. I've tested it several times.

and there is some water in the pump itself.

Not when its pumped what has drained back over
night out the outlet and has not added any water
at all when it detects water in the chassis.

The drain pipe does up at least a foot and a half in most installations
(to avoid siphoning effects). The water in that foot and a half falls
back into the sump when the drain pump stops.

When this fault condition happens, it's fairly obvious because the
dishes don't get washed. And when you stand next to it you can't hear
the wash-water sloshing around.

I just dont believe that Bosch is actually stupid enough
to go thru the entire wash phase with no water at all

Sigh. The sump water.

in the dishwasher. And then do the rinse phase as usual, even tho its
detected water in the chassis.

You must ask them why this is what happens.

Particularly as NO ONE has ever reported
that massive design flaw world wide.

Two of us in this thread.

and the machine would detect that the heating of the water wasnt
working as well.

It'll be heating the little water there is,

There is no water because all dishwashers pump what
they can out the outlet as they start to get rid of the
water that has drained back into the sump overnight.

Not all of it.

You claim that it adds no water at all

It's very obvious when you look at the transparent inlet piping that it
adds nothing at all.

because it detects
water in the chassis. So there would be no water at all.

Only that much water described above.

and then turning off. It won't have enough intelligence in the
controller to think "hmm, that heated up faster than normal".

There is no water to pump.

Only that much water described above.

And its completely trivial to simulate how much water is in the
machine in the wash phase by turning off the water supply completely
so it can't add any water at all.

Yes, that would be one way.

And if you did that you would find that the dishwasher
isnt actually stupid enough to go do the entire wash
phase with no water in the machine at all.

Only that much water described above.

You dont in fact see it do the wash phase at all if you do that
because it knows that there isnt any water in the machine. Its not
stupid enough
to **** the pump by pumping just air for the whole wash phase.

It's pumping the residual water in the sump.

There is no residual water in the sump.

There is.

Have you actually looked??

ALL dishwasher pump the
sump to the outlet when they start, to get rid of any water in the
sump because that has drained back with the machine idle and
could well have been sitting in the sump for days or weeks and
the last thing you want is to have that stagnant water being
pumped around the dishes you are trying to clean.

They pump out as much as they can, but it's not all of it.

Without a non-return valve on the pipe, please explain how nothing flows
back into the sump.

It's probably why they often do a "pre-rinse" as much to get the old
water diluted and out as to remove the crud from the new load of
washing.

As soon as it stopped washing the dishes properly I took some time to
stand next to it after I'd started it (rather than leaving the
kitchen) and it was obvious from the lack of "sloshing noise" that
the water fill wasn't working.

And yet you claimed to have done that 'many times'

The thing I did many times was observe the wash cycles having taken the
thing apart.

For a few days I worked around this by opening it up when it had been
running about a minute, and added water by hand.

Mad.

It gets the dishes washed.

It in fact
pumps out the dishwasher when it starts up.

It doesn't pump it all out,

It does actually, all that has drained back into the sump since the
last use.

Not all of it.

Dishwashers have to do that because what is in the sump may
well have been there for days or weeks and the last thing you
want to do is have the stagnant water being pumped around
the dishes you are trying to clean.

That's part of the pre-wash thing.

and as I've told you before there's the back-flow water that was in
the uphill bit of the drain pipe.

I dont believe that either. It may well
be in the PUMP but not in the SUMP.

It was in the drain pipe, but flows back through the pump when it stops,

Depends how serious a leak. It could be as little as a drip every ten
seconds.

That isnt going to be detected by the flood sensor
because the most that can ever end up in the chassis
is what is in the sump after the final pump out. **** all.

But there's more in the sump than you acknowledge.

But there is **** all water left in the dishwasher at the end of the use,

That's not the case. There's more than you imagine.

Wrong. I am currently running mine on 6' wide concrete
slab outside the back of the house while I decided that
it would do a good job on the full sized beer bottles I
use to brew beer in, so I can see how much water it
pumps out of the sump when I start the dishwasher.

Its **** all.

Indeed, that's because the pump isn't capable of draining the last pint
or two. And it can't do it at the start of a new wash cycle any more
that it could at the end of the previous one.

We won't make any progress if you continue to be in denial about the
residual water.

I'm not in denial, I KNOW that there is **** all
in the sump when the dishwasher starts, just
what drains back after the last use. **** all.

I suggest you take off the outflow pipe and see how wet your feet get.

And its completely trivial to prove that there
is nothing to pump by turning the water supply
off so you know that none got added and see
the dishwasher stop and whine about no water too.

But the models which the OP and I have don't have that function built
in.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one light,
called "End"; plus the lights in the four different programme buttons
which merely say which one you've selected).

So, it's a different model.

Clearly. The problem is that Ron seems to think that because his a
different model, mine isn't broken.

I clearly said that yours is broken, but that your claim that
it furiously pumps for the whole wash phase with no added
water at all is clearly just plain wrong because there would
be nothing to pump at all if it actually did that.

Wrong wrong wrong for the umpteenth time.

Yes you are.

There's enough residual water in the sump to do that.

BULL****. If there was, not using the dishwasher for a week or more
would see the dishwasher use stagnant water that has been the sump
for weeks. No dishwasher designer is ever stupid enough to do it like that.

And you have absolutely no idea what model the OP has either.

I know that his symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

Doesn't say a damned thing about why it does that.

Are you yet in a position to suggest what we might do to fix the machines?

I already did, work out why it is doing that and fix it, stupid.

And I pointed out how to check if his dishwasher actually has
any water in the chassis and how to see if it adds any water
at the start by turning off the water supply and see if it continues
to behave the same way. Bet it doesn't. Bet it stops when it
detects that there is no water available.

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The pump's unlikely to be damaged by running with a low water supply,

Bull**** with your stupid claim that it adds no water at
all because it sees water in the chassis when it starts after
it pumps what has drained back overnight out the outlet.

That's what happens. I've tested it several times.

I bet its actually got an intermittent fault with the
water supply system and you fooled yourself.

and there is some water in the pump itself.

Not when its pumped what has drained back over
night out the outlet and has not added any water
at all when it detects water in the chassis.

The drain pipe does up at least a foot and a half in most installations
(to avoid siphoning effects).

I left mine lying on the concrete floor when I was
running it on the concrete slab at the back of the
house to work out whether it was worth installing
and get no syphoning effect at all.

The water in that foot and a half falls back into the sump when the drain
pump stops.

If it did that, not using the dishwasher for a week or more
would see it use that stagnant water when its used again.
Bosch doesnt design dishwashers that badly.

When this fault condition happens, it's fairly obvious because the
dishes don't get washed. And when you stand next to it you can't hear
the wash-water sloshing around.

I just dont believe that Bosch is actually stupid enough to go thru the
entire wash phase with no water at all in the dishwasher.

Sigh.

Heavy breathing won't save your bacon.

The sump water.

There is no sump water. ALL dishwashers pump out the
sump right at the start to get rid of what may have drained
back into the sump from the main washing chamber after
the dishwasher was used the last time, so there is no
stagnant water in the sump to be pumped around the dishes.

And then do the rinse phase as usual, even tho its detected water in the
chassis.

You must ask them why this is what happens.

No point, it doesnt do that.

Particularly as NO ONE has ever reported
that massive design flaw world wide.

Two of us in this thread.

BULL****. You dont know that the OP
even has any water in the chassis at all.

and the machine would detect that the heating of the water wasnt
working as well.

It'll be heating the little water there is,

There is no water because all dishwashers pump what
they can out the outlet as they start to get rid of the
water that has drained back into the sump overnight.

Not all of it.

You are just plain wrong.

You claim that it adds no water at all

It's very obvious when you look at the transparent inlet piping that it
adds nothing at all.

For a different reason, the solenoid is ****ed etc.

because it detects water in the chassis. So there would be no water at
all.

Only that much water described above.

Pig ignorantly claimed above, actually.

and then turning off. It won't have enough intelligence in the
controller to think "hmm, that heated up faster than normal".

There is no water to pump.

Only that much water described above.

Pig ignorantly claimed above, actually.

And its completely trivial to simulate how much water is in the machine
in the wash phase by turning off the water supply completely so it
can't add any water at all.

Yes, that would be one way.

And if you did that you would find that the dishwasher
isnt actually stupid enough to go do the entire wash
phase with no water in the machine at all.

Only that much water described above.

Pig ignorantly claimed above, actually.

You dont in fact see it do the wash phase at all if you do that
because it knows that there isnt any water in the machine. Its not
stupid enough to **** the pump by pumping just air for the whole wash
phase.

It's pumping the residual water in the sump.

There is no residual water in the sump.

There is.

BULL****.

Have you actually looked??

Yep, and since I supplied the water from the garden tap,
and managed to forget to turn the tap on occasionally, the
dishwasher just stops and whines about the lack of water.

Its not actually stupid enough to try to do the entire wash phase
with no water except what allegedly remains in the sump.

ALL dishwasher pump the sump to the outlet when they start, to get rid of
any water in the sump because that has drained back with the machine idle
and could well have been sitting in the sump for days or weeks and the
last thing you want is to have that stagnant water being pumped around
the dishes you are trying to clean.

They pump out as much as they can, but it's not all of it.

Bull****. If it wasnt, you'd have stagnant water being used in the
first use of the dishwasher after not being used for a week or two.

It's probably why they often do a "pre-rinse"

Not all cycles have a prerinse.

as much to get the old water diluted and out as to remove the crud from
the new load of washing.

If that was true all the cycles would have a pre rinse and they dont.

And it makes much more sense to just add water
to the sump and then empty it anyway, no point
in spraying the dishes with that stagnant water.

I haven't seen a dishwasher that doesnt do that,
pumps the sump before it does anything at all.

It in fact pumps out the dishwasher when it starts up.

It doesn't pump it all out,

It does actually, all that has drained back into the sump since the last
use.

Not all of it.

All of it, and the water it adds and pumps
out before it does any spraying at all.

Dishwashers have to do that because what is in the sump may well have
been there for days or weeks and the last thing you want to do is have
the stagnant water being pumped around the dishes you are trying to
clean.

That's part of the pre-wash thing.

Wrong. There is no prewash with some cycles.

There is ALWAYS a pump of the sump before it does
anything and water is added while its pumping so
that whatever stagnant water is ALL pumped out.

and as I've told you before there's the back-flow water that was in the
uphill bit of the drain pipe.

I dont believe that either. It may well
be in the PUMP but not in the SUMP.

It was in the drain pipe, but flows back through the pump when it stops,

And gets pumped out when the pump is run again
before it does anything else, with added water to
get all the stagnant water out before it turns the
pump off and continues to add water to use.

Depends how serious a leak. It could be as little as a drip every ten
seconds.

That isnt going to be detected by the flood sensor
because the most that can ever end up in the chassis
is what is in the sump after the final pump out. **** all.

But there's more in the sump than you acknowledge.

There is **** all compared with what is there in the wash phase.

But there is **** all water left in the dishwasher at the end of the
use,

That's not the case. There's more than you imagine.

Wrong. I am currently running mine on 6' wide concrete
slab outside the back of the house while I decided that
it would do a good job on the full sized beer bottles I
use to brew beer in, so I can see how much water it
pumps out of the sump when I start the dishwasher.

Its **** all.

Indeed, that's because the pump isn't capable of draining the last pint or
two.

Its nothing even remotely like a pint or two.

And it can't do it at the start of a new wash cycle any more that it could
at the end of the previous one.

Wrong when it adds more water and pumps both
what remained in the sump and what is added out
before turning the pump off and filling the sump
before it ever pumps any water thru the rotating arms.

We won't make any progress if you continue to be in denial about the
residual water.

I'm not in denial, I KNOW that there is **** all
in the sump when the dishwasher starts, just
what drains back after the last use. **** all.

I suggest you take off the outflow pipe

I already told you that it was never
on, its just lying on the concrete.

and see how wet your feet get.

My feet dont get wet at all.

And its completely trivial to prove that there
is nothing to pump by turning the water supply
off so you know that none got added and see
the dishwasher stop and whine about no water too.

But the models which the OP and I have don't have that function built in.

You have absolutely no idea about that with the OP's dishwasher.

And ALL dishwashers are obviously capable of
stopping when they detect that the sump never fills.

In message , at 09:44:51 on Wed, 3 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one
light, called "End"; plus the lights in the four different
programme buttons which merely say which one you've selected).

So, it's a different model.

Clearly. The problem is that Ron seems to think that because his a
different model, mine isn't broken.

I clearly said that yours is broken, but that your claim that
it furiously pumps for the whole wash phase with no added
water at all is clearly just plain wrong because there would
be nothing to pump at all if it actually did that.

Wrong wrong wrong for the umpteenth time.

Yes you are.

There's enough residual water in the sump to do that.

BULL****. If there was, not using the dishwasher for a week or more
would see the dishwasher use stagnant water that has been the sump
for weeks. No dishwasher designer is ever stupid enough to do it like that.

I don't think I'd use the word "stupid". In any event, it's impossible
to pump every last bit out, so there will always be some in the bottom.
That will mix with the drips from off the plates and with the first fill
of pre-rinse water.

And you have absolutely no idea what model the OP has either.

I know that his symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

Doesn't say a damned thing about why it does that.

Could be a different fault with the same symptoms, but it's unlikely.

Are you yet in a position to suggest what we might do to fix the machines?

I already did, work out why it is doing that and fix it, stupid.

Oh very drole.

And I pointed out how to check if his dishwasher actually has
any water in the chassis and how to see if it adds any water
at the start by turning off the water supply and see if it continues
to behave the same way. Bet it doesn't. Bet it stops when it
detects that there is no water available.

I've done the equivalent of that with mine. While I didn't turn off the
water supply, the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and
it's completely obvious whether any fill water is flowing.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:20:34 on Wed, 3 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The pump's unlikely to be damaged by running with a low water supply,

Bull**** with your stupid claim that it adds no water at
all because it sees water in the chassis when it starts after
it pumps what has drained back overnight out the outlet.

That's what happens. I've tested it several times.

I bet its actually got an intermittent fault with the
water supply system and you fooled yourself.

It's possible the inlet valve is intermittent, but if so it's very
repeatedly intermittent. Not letting any water in for the first fill and
working perfectly for subsequent ones.

and there is some water in the pump itself.

Not when its pumped what has drained back over
night out the outlet and has not added any water
at all when it detects water in the chassis.

The drain pipe does up at least a foot and a half in most
installations (to avoid siphoning effects).

I left mine lying on the concrete floor when I was
running it on the concrete slab at the back of the
house to work out whether it was worth installing
and get no syphoning effect at all.

Syphoning also depends where the drain is connected to at the sink end.

But there is **** all water left in the dishwasher at the end of
the use,

That's not the case. There's more than you imagine.

Wrong. I am currently running mine on 6' wide concrete
slab outside the back of the house while I decided that
it would do a good job on the full sized beer bottles I
use to brew beer in, so I can see how much water it
pumps out of the sump when I start the dishwasher.

Its **** all.

When the dishwasher finishes it pumps the sump out, but a small amount
remains in the pipe.

When you restart the washer it has another go at pumping (why would it
so that if the sump was guaranteed to be empty? But of course it can't
pump out more than it did the previous time, so unless there's been a
leak you won't see any additional water coming out of the drain pipe.

When it's finished the pre-pump, then that same pipeful of water falls
back into the sump.

Another reason your experience differs is because you've said *your*
drain pipe doesn't have an anti-syphoning hump in it.

I KNOW that there is **** all
in the sump when the dishwasher starts, just
what drains back after the last use. **** all.

I suggest you take off the outflow pipe

I already told you that it was never
on, its just lying on the concrete.

and see how wet your feet get.

My feet dont get wet at all.

The outflow pipe is attached to the exit from the sump. If you were
operating the machine without that attached then all the drain water,
even for the complete fills, will be pumped onto the ground directly
underneath the washer. Is that what was happening?

And ALL dishwashers are obviously capable of
stopping when they detect that the sump never fills.

Mine doesn't.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one
light, called "End"; plus the lights in the four different
programme buttons which merely say which one you've selected).

So, it's a different model.

Clearly. The problem is that Ron seems to think that because his a
different model, mine isn't broken.

I clearly said that yours is broken, but that your claim that
it furiously pumps for the whole wash phase with no added
water at all is clearly just plain wrong because there would
be nothing to pump at all if it actually did that.

Wrong wrong wrong for the umpteenth time.

Yes you are.

There's enough residual water in the sump to do that.

BULL****. If there was, not using the dishwasher for a week or more
would see the dishwasher use stagnant water that has been the sump
for weeks. No dishwasher designer is ever stupid enough to do it like
that.

I don't think I'd use the word "stupid".

More fool you. It is completely stupid to use water in the sump
that could have been there for weeks and is completely stagnant
when its so completely trivial to add some more water and keep
pumping that out until you can be sure that whatever has remained
in the sump has been flushed out before filling the sump with
water and starting to pump it thru the rotating arms.

In any event, it's impossible to pump every last bit out, so there will
always be some in the bottom.

But is completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

That will mix with the drips from off the plates

There isnt necessarily any drips from
off the plates after the last drying phase.

and with the first fill of pre-rinse water.

Not all cycles have a pre-rinse.

And you have absolutely no idea what model the OP has either.

I know that his symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

Doesn't say a damned thing about why it does that.

Could be a different fault with the same symptoms, but it's unlikely.

It is in fact MUCH less likely that any Bosch dishwasher is actually
stupid enough to use what water that remains in the sump and
could have been there for WEEKS as the only water used in the
wash cycle because it decides that there has been a leak to the
chassis, and then ignore the leak completely and do all the rinses
with the normal water fill of the sump.

Are you yet in a position to suggest what we might do to fix the
machines?

I already did, work out why it is doing that and fix it, stupid.

Oh very drole.

Nothing droll about it. That what any fault fixing does.

And I pointed out how to check if his dishwasher actually has any water
in the chassis and how to see if it adds any water at the start by
turning off the water supply and see if it continues to behave the same
way. Bet it doesn't. Bet it stops when it detects that there is no water
available.

I've done the equivalent of that with mine.

Bull****.

While I didn't turn off the water supply,

So you did nothing like my test.

the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and it's completely
obvious whether any fill water is flowing.

Bull****.

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The pump's unlikely to be damaged by running with a low water supply,

Bull**** with your stupid claim that it adds no water at
all because it sees water in the chassis when it starts after
it pumps what has drained back overnight out the outlet.

That's what happens. I've tested it several times.

I bet its actually got an intermittent fault with the
water supply system and you fooled yourself.

It's possible the inlet valve is intermittent, but if so it's very
repeatedly intermittent. Not letting any water in for the first fill

You dont know that either. It may not be letting enough
in to be visible when you look at the transparent tube it
goes thru, but is more than no water at all.

and working perfectly for subsequent ones.

You dont know that either. It may just end up with
more in the rinse phases but nothing like perfect.

and there is some water in the pump itself.

Not when its pumped what has drained back over
night out the outlet and has not added any water
at all when it detects water in the chassis.

The drain pipe does up at least a foot and a half in most installations
(to avoid siphoning effects).

I left mine lying on the concrete floor when I was
running it on the concrete slab at the back of the
house to work out whether it was worth installing
and get no syphoning effect at all.

Syphoning also depends where the drain is connected to at the sink end.

Like I just said, its not connected to anything at all, it
just lies on the concrete and there is no syphoning at all.

But there is **** all water left in the dishwasher at the end of the
use,

That's not the case. There's more than you imagine.

Wrong. I am currently running mine on 6' wide concrete
slab outside the back of the house while I decided that
it would do a good job on the full sized beer bottles I
use to brew beer in, so I can see how much water it
pumps out of the sump when I start the dishwasher.

Its **** all.

When the dishwasher finishes it pumps the sump out, but a small amount
remains in the pipe.

Duh.

When you restart the washer it has another go at pumping (why would it so
that if the sump was guaranteed to be empty?

Because some more may well have drained from the main chamber
of the dishwasher into the sump while the dishwasher was off.

But of course it can't pump out more than it did the previous time, so
unless there's been a leak you won't see any additional water coming out
of the drain pipe.

And yet more does, because even the most stupid designer
realises that the ONLY way to get rid of what can't be pumped
out is to flush it out with more water from the water supply
to get rid of what may well be VERY stagnant water if it hasnt
been used for a week or more.

When it's finished the pre-pump, then that same pipeful of water falls
back into the sump.

Wrong when the sump is flushed out with more water into the dishwasher
before that pump is turned off, the water continues to be added to the
dishwasher until the level detector indicates that there is enough water
to be pumped thru the rotating arms to do the pre rinse or the wash.

Another reason your experience differs is because you've said *your* drain
pipe doesn't have an anti-syphoning hump in it.

I said nothing of the kind. I JUST said that when the outlet
hose is lying on the concrete you get no syphoning at all.

I KNOW that there is **** all in the sump when the dishwasher starts,
just what drains back after the last use. **** all.

I suggest you take off the outflow pipe

I already told you that it was never
on, its just lying on the concrete.

and see how wet your feet get.

My feet dont get wet at all.

The outflow pipe is attached to the exit from the sump.

Its actually attached to the outlet of the pump.

If you were operating the machine without that attached

I didnt say it wasnt attached to the dishwasher,
I said it wasnt attached to anything at the other
end of the pipe to the dishwasher.

then all the drain water, even for the complete fills, will be pumped onto
the ground directly underneath the washer.

Duh.

Is that what was happening?

Corse not, because its attached to the dishwasher, stupid.

And ALL dishwashers are obviously capable of
stopping when they detect that the sump never fills.

Mine doesn't.

So if you fail to connect it to a water supply,
the dishwasher will carry on regardless and
**** the pumps by running dry forever ?

I dont believe you.

In message , at 11:05:35 on Thu, 4 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:

In any event, it's impossible to pump every last bit out, so there
will always be some in the bottom.

But is completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

That will mix with the drips from off the plates

There isnt necessarily any drips from
off the plates after the last drying phase.

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and it's
completely obvious whether any fill water is flowing.

Bull****.

So you've never taken the side off and looked. Quelle surprise.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:29:25 on Thu, 4 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:

It's possible the inlet valve is intermittent, but if so it's very
repeatedly intermittent. Not letting any water in for the first fill

You dont know that either. It may not be letting enough
in to be visible when you look at the transparent tube it
goes thru, but is more than no water at all.

The way the pipes are constructed it's completely obvious whether
there's any water flowing in them or not.

Syphoning also depends where the drain is connected to at the sink end.

Like I just said, its not connected to anything at all, it
just lies on the concrete and there is no syphoning at all.

In your installation. But most people have a different configuration
which includes the anti-syphoning up-and-over.

When you restart the washer it has another go at pumping (why would
it so that if the sump was guaranteed to be empty?

Because some more may well have drained from the main chamber
of the dishwasher into the sump while the dishwasher was off.

No, the drainage from the main chamber to the sump is pretty much
instantaneous. Water running downhill and all that.

But of course it can't pump out more than it did the previous time,
so unless there's been a leak you won't see any additional water
coming out of the drain pipe.

And yet more does, because even the most stupid designer
realises that the ONLY way to get rid of what can't be pumped
out is to flush it out with more water from the water supply
to get rid of what may well be VERY stagnant water if it hasnt
been used for a week or more.

That's one of the functions of the pre-rinse, but YOU insist the
designers are stupid enough not to have that on every programme.

Another reason your experience differs is because you've said *your*
drain pipe doesn't have an anti-syphoning hump in it.

I said nothing of the kind. I JUST said that when the outlet
hose is lying on the concrete you get no syphoning at all.

That's because it's *your* drain pipe that's doing this, and very few
other people's.

So if you fail to connect it to a water supply,
the dishwasher will carry on regardless and
**** the pumps by running dry forever ?

I dont believe you.

They are neither dry (because there's enough water to dribble out of the
rotating spray) nor would the technology used in the pump suffer if
running dry (it's just a motor-driven impeller in a chamber, if the
chamber's empty the motor has no load).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote

In any event, it's impossible to pump every last bit
out, so there will always be some in the bottom.

But is completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

That will mix with the drips from off the plates

There isnt necessarily any drips from
off the plates after the last drying phase.

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

Its completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and
it's completely obvious whether any fill water is flowing.

Bull****.

So you've never taken the side off and looked.

You're wrong, as always.

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote

It's possible the inlet valve is intermittent, but if so it's very
repeatedly intermittent. Not letting any water in for the first fill

You dont know that either. It may not be letting enough
in to be visible when you look at the transparent tube it
goes thru, but is more than no water at all.

The way the pipes are constructed it's completely obvious whether there's
any water flowing in them or not.

Bull****.

Syphoning also depends where the drain is connected to at the sink end.

Like I just said, its not connected to anything at all, it
just lies on the concrete and there is no syphoning at all.

In your installation.

Which shows that you dont get any syphoning
at all with it just lying on the concrete like that.

But most people have a different configuration which includes the
anti-syphoning up-and-over.

That clearly is not necessary.

And the installation instructions dont say it is necessary either.

When you restart the washer it has another go at pumping (why would it
so that if the sump was guaranteed to be empty?

Because some more may well have drained from the main chamber
of the dishwasher into the sump while the dishwasher was off.

No, the drainage from the main chamber to the sump is pretty much
instantaneous.

Bull**** with what drains off the plates etc when you
get the dishwasher to just rinse and not wash or dry.

Water running downhill and all that.

Nothing even remotely instantaneous with what drips off the plates etc.

And you need to pump out the sump in case someone has
been stupid enough to run the tap on the stuff that goes
in the dishwasher before putting it in the dishwasher too.

But of course it can't pump out more than it did the previous time, so
unless there's been a leak you won't see any additional water oming out
of the drain pipe.

And yet more does, because even the most stupid designer realises that
the ONLY way to get rid of what can't be pumped out is to flush it out
with more water from the water supply to get rid of what may well be VERY
stagnant water if it hasnt been used for a week or more.

That's one of the functions of the pre-rinse,

Makes a hell of a lot more sense to add some more
water while the pump is pumping out the sump before
the main pump that pumps water in the sump into the
rotating arms, so that stagnant water is pump out of
the sump and not sprayed on the plates, stupid.

but YOU insist the designers are stupid enough not to have that on every
programme.

Even someone as stupid as you can see from the
manual that not all programs have a pre rinse.

Another reason your experience differs is because you've said *your*
drain pipe doesn't have an anti-syphoning hump in it.

I said nothing of the kind. I JUST said that when the outlet
hose is lying on the concrete you get no syphoning at all.

That's because it's *your* drain pipe that's doing this, and very few
other people's.

If mine doesnt siphon with the with the outlet
just lying on the concrete, no one else's with the
outlet raised higher than that will siphon either.

So if you fail to connect it to a water supply,
the dishwasher will carry on regardless and
**** the pumps by running dry forever ?

I dont believe you.

They are neither dry

They will be if no water is added after the sump is pumped.

(because there's enough water to dribble out of the rotating spray)

There isnt if no water is added after the sump is pumped.

nor would the technology used in the pump suffer if running dry

Bull**** with the main recirculating pump.

(it's just a motor-driven impeller in a chamber, if the chamber's empty
the motor has no load).

Still going to **** it running dry.

In message , at 10:50:00 on Sun, 7 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote

In any event, it's impossible to pump every last bit out, so there
will always be some in the bottom.

But is completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

That will mix with the drips from off the plates

There isnt necessarily any drips from
off the plates after the last drying phase.

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

Its completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

Only if the machine succeeds in letting water in. The fault under
discussion is when it doesn't.

the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and it's
completely obvious whether any fill water is flowing.

Bull****.

So you've never taken the side off and looked.

You're wrong, as always.

In which case perhaps you've forgotten that it's obvious, when looking
at the transparent pipes inside, if any water is flowing?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:04:45 on Sun, 7 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote

It's possible the inlet valve is intermittent, but if so it's very
repeatedly intermittent. Not letting any water in for the first fill

You dont know that either. It may not be letting enough
in to be visible when you look at the transparent tube it
goes thru, but is more than no water at all.

The way the pipes are constructed it's completely obvious whether
there's any water flowing in them or not.

Bull****.

But you've seen inside, apparently. So you should know that you can.

Syphoning also depends where the drain is connected to at the sink end.

Like I just said, its not connected to anything at all, it
just lies on the concrete and there is no syphoning at all.

In your installation.

Which shows that you dont get any syphoning
at all with it just lying on the concrete like that.

We aren't discussing your "on the concrete" installation, but if you
think we are than it explains a lot.

But most people have a different configuration which includes the
anti-syphoning up-and-over.

That clearly is not necessary.

And the installation instructions dont say it is necessary either.

When you restart the washer it has another go at pumping (why would
it so that if the sump was guaranteed to be empty?

Because some more may well have drained from the main chamber
of the dishwasher into the sump while the dishwasher was off.

No, the drainage from the main chamber to the sump is pretty much
instantaneous.

Bull**** with what drains off the plates etc when you
get the dishwasher to just rinse and not wash or dry.

What has that got to do with the dirty mixture in the sump after you've
been loading a fresh set of plates to clean?

Water running downhill and all that.

Nothing even remotely instantaneous with what drips off the plates etc.

And you need to pump out the sump in case someone has
been stupid enough to run the tap on the stuff that goes
in the dishwasher before putting it in the dishwasher too.

Yes, the first thing it does is pump out for at least four seconds. Then
it ought to start filling. We are looking at the situation where it
doesn't start to fill.

But of course it can't pump out more than it did the previous time,
so unless there's been a leak you won't see any additional water
oming out of the drain pipe.

And yet more does, because even the most stupid designer realises
that the ONLY way to get rid of what can't be pumped out is to flush
it out with more water from the water supply to get rid of what may
well be VERY stagnant water if it hasnt been used for a week or more.

That's one of the functions of the pre-rinse,

Makes a hell of a lot more sense to add some more
water while the pump is pumping out the sump before
the main pump that pumps water in the sump into the
rotating arms, so that stagnant water is pump out of
the sump and not sprayed on the plates, stupid.

That's not the way it works.

but YOU insist the designers are stupid enough not to have that on
every programme.

Even someone as stupid as you can see from the
manual that not all programs have a pre rinse.

I don't have a manual; the washer came with the house and the previous
owner didn't hand over any manuals.

(it's just a motor-driven impeller in a chamber, if the chamber's
empty the motor has no load).

Still going to **** it running dry.

It's not dry, there's enough water in the sump to at least pup up a
dribble as far as the top of the machine.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote

In any event, it's impossible to pump every last bit
out, so there will always be some in the bottom.

But is completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

That will mix with the drips from off the plates

There isnt necessarily any drips from
off the plates after the last drying phase.

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

Its completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

Only if the machine succeeds in letting water in.

Obviously it does, because it does in the rinse phase.

The fault under discussion is when it doesn't.

Wrong, it does in the rinse phase.

the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and
it's completely obvious whether any fill water is flowing.

Bull****.

So you've never taken the side off and looked.

You're wrong, as always.

In which case perhaps you've forgotten that it's obvious, when
looking at the transparent pipes inside, if any water is flowing?

You're wrong when the flow isnt very high.

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote

It's possible the inlet valve is intermittent, but if so it's very
repeatedly intermittent. Not letting any water in for the first fill

You dont know that either. It may not be letting enough
in to be visible when you look at the transparent tube it
goes thru, but is more than no water at all.

The way the pipes are constructed it's completely obvious whether
there's any water flowing in them or not.

Bull****.

But you've seen inside, apparently.

Yep.

So you should know that you can.

Bull****.

Syphoning also depends where the drain is connected to at the sink
end.

Like I just said, its not connected to anything at all, it
just lies on the concrete and there is no syphoning at all.

In your installation.

Which shows that you dont get any syphoning
at all with it just lying on the concrete like that.

We aren't discussing your "on the concrete" installation,

We are on the question of when siphoning happens.

but if you think we are than it explains a lot.

You never have had a ****ing clue about the most basic physics.

But most people have a different configuration which includes the
anti-syphoning up-and-over.

That clearly is not necessary.

And the installation instructions dont say it is necessary either.

When you restart the washer it has another go at pumping (why would it
so that if the sump was guaranteed to be empty?

Because some more may well have drained from the main chamber
of the dishwasher into the sump while the dishwasher was off.

No, the drainage from the main chamber to the sump is pretty much
instantaneous.

Bull**** with what drains off the plates etc when you
get the dishwasher to just rinse and not wash or dry.

What has that got to do with the dirty mixture in the sump after you've
been loading a fresh set of plates to clean?

Its why no dishwasher designer is ever actually stupid
enough to not flush what remains in the sump because
it may have been stagnant in the sump for weeks.

Water running downhill and all that.

Nothing even remotely instantaneous with what drips off the plates etc.

And you need to pump out the sump in case someone has
been stupid enough to run the tap on the stuff that goes
in the dishwasher before putting it in the dishwasher too.

Yes, the first thing it does is pump out for at least four seconds.

And adds more water because that is the only way to get
what may have been stagnant in the sump for weeks, stupid.

Then it ought to start filling.

Wrong. It should flush the sump first, because that is the only
way to get what may have been stagnant out of the sump.

We are looking at the situation where it doesn't start to fill.

Wrong, as always.

But of course it can't pump out more than it did the previous time, so
unless there's been a leak you won't see any additional water coming
out of the drain pipe.

And yet more does, because even the most stupid designer realises that
the ONLY way to get rid of what can't be pumped out is to flush it out
with more water from the water supply to get rid of what may well be
VERY stagnant water if it hasnt been used for a week or more.

That's one of the functions of the pre-rinse,

Makes a hell of a lot more sense to add some more
water while the pump is pumping out the sump before
the main pump that pumps water in the sump into the
rotating arms, so that stagnant water is pump out of
the sump and not sprayed on the plates, stupid.

That's not the way it works.

Corse it is.

but YOU insist the designers are stupid enough not to have that on every
programme.

Even someone as stupid as you can see from the
manual that not all programs have a pre rinse.

I don't have a manual; the washer came with the house and the previous
owner didn't hand over any manuals.

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to go to
the Bosch web site and enter the model number that the
web site tell you how to find and download the manual.

(it's just a motor-driven impeller in a chamber, if the chamber's empty
the motor has no load).

Still going to **** it running dry.

It's not dry,

It is if no water is added.

there's enough water in the sump to at least pup up a dribble as far as
the top of the machine.

Bull**** if no water is added.

In message , at 22:02:58 on Sun, 7 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

Its completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

Only if the machine succeeds in letting water in.

Obviously it does, because it does in the rinse phase.

Do you mean pre-rinse? The one you said wasn't present in every
programme?

The fault under discussion is when it doesn't.

Wrong, it does in the rinse phase.

Wrong, the fault stops the water entering.

the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and it's
completely obvious whether any fill water is flowing.

Bull****.

So you've never taken the side off and looked.

You're wrong, as always.

In which case perhaps you've forgotten that it's obvious, when
looking at the transparent pipes inside, if any water is flowing?

You're wrong when the flow isnt very high.

No, because it flows through various up-and-over pipery, and if the
level on the inlet side doesn't reach the top of that, nothing can flow
into the washer.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:17:14 on Sun, 7 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:

Bull****.

Repeating all sorts of stuff we already discussed why you seem to be
clueless about this situation.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

Its completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

Only if the machine succeeds in letting water in.

Obviously it does, because it does in the rinse phase.

Do you mean pre-rinse?

Nope, the rinses after the wash that you claim the
dishwasher stupidly does as normal even when the
chassis water level detector is saying there is a leak.

The one you said wasn't present in every programme?

The one the MANUAL says isnt present in every program.

The fault under discussion is when it doesn't.

Wrong, it does in the rinse phase.

Wrong, the fault stops the water entering.

You previously claimed that no water enters before
the wash phase, but that the dishwasher does the
rinses AFTER the wash phase as normal even if the
chassis water detector has decided that there is a leak.

the pipes in the side of the washer are transparent and
it's completely obvious whether any fill water is flowing.

Bull****.

So you've never taken the side off and looked.

You're wrong, as always.

In which case perhaps you've forgotten that it's obvious, when
looking at the transparent pipes inside, if any water is flowing?

You're wrong when the flow isnt very high.

No,

Yep.

because it flows through various up-and-over pipery,
and if the level on the inlet side doesn't reach the top
of that, nothing can flow into the washer.

It doesn't fall back when the solenoid is closed.

Roland Perry wrote just the usual
mindless silly stuff. How odd that he is the ONLY one
WORLD WIDE that has actually seen a Bosch dishwasher
to what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,
completely ignore the chassis water level detector
in the rinses AFTER the wash phase and use the
fetid dregs left in the sump maybe for weeks to
wash the dishes with if there appears to have been
a leak instead of just stopping with a fault code.

You'll have to pardon us if we decide that you don't
actually have a ****ing clue about dishwashers.

In message , at 07:55:31 on Wed, 10
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

Its completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

Only if the machine succeeds in letting water in.

Obviously it does, because it does in the rinse phase.

Do you mean pre-rinse?

Nope, the rinses after the wash that you claim the
dishwasher stupidly does as normal even when the
chassis water level detector is saying there is a leak.

How does a rinse after a wash, clean the next set of dirty plates you
put in. Are you losing the plot??

You previously claimed that no water enters before
the wash phase,

I still claim that.

but that the dishwasher does the rinses AFTER the wash phase as normal
even if the chassis water detector has decided that there is a leak.

That's right, it rinses the plates which have just been washed.

Not the new set of dirty plates you put in after you've taken those out
and stacked them in the sideboard.

because it flows through various up-and-over pipery, and if the
level on the inlet side doesn't reach the top of that, nothing can
flow into the washer.

It doesn't fall back when the solenoid is closed.

What doesn't fall back?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 07:59:41 on Wed, 10
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote just the usual
mindless silly stuff. How odd that he is the ONLY one
WORLD WIDE that has actually seen a Bosch dishwasher
to what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

completely ignore the chassis water level detector in the rinses AFTER
the wash phase

That's what it does.

and use the fetid dregs left in the sump maybe for weeks to
wash the dishes with

It pre-washes with those dregs plus the first feed. The problem with the
broken washer is that the first feed is inhibited.

if there appears to have been
a leak instead of just stopping with a fault code.

My dishwasher does not appear to have any means to communicate a fault
code. There are no lights - what else do you think it could do. Hint: it
doesn't produce a complex beep-code either.

You'll have to pardon us if we decide that you don't
actually have a ****ing clue about dishwashers.

You don't seem to have much of a clue about mine. Which makes us all
ask: "Why are you flogging this long-dead horse".
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in there.

Its completely trivial to flush that out as I said.

Only if the machine succeeds in letting water in.

Obviously it does, because it does in the rinse phase.

Do you mean pre-rinse?

Nope, the rinses after the wash that you claim the
dishwasher stupidly does as normal even when the
chassis water level detector is saying there is a leak.

How does a rinse after a wash, clean
the next set of dirty plates you put in.

Never said anything about the next set of dirty dishes.

Are you losing the plot??

No need to ask you that, the answer is obvious.

You previously claimed that no water
enters before the wash phase,

I still claim that.

I just don't believe that any dishwasher is actually stupid
enough to attempt to do the entire wash phase with the
stagnant fetid water that may have been in the sump for
weeks when it decides that there has been a leak into the
chassis, which would have seen the sump empty into the
chassis with nothing to pump into the rotating arms ANYWAY.

but that the dishwasher does the rinses AFTER the wash phase as normal
even if the chassis water detector has decided that there is a leak.

That's right, it rinses the plates which have just been washed.

Even when it has decided that there is a leak into the
chassis and that is why according to you it does the
entire wash phase with the filthy fetid water that could
have been in the sump for weeks since the last use of
the dishwasher. Yeah, right.

Not the new set of dirty plates you put in after you've
taken those out and stacked them in the sideboard.

Never said anything like that.

because it flows through various up-and-over pipery,
and if the level on the inlet side doesn't reach the top
of that, nothing can flow into the washer.

It doesn't fall back when the solenoid is closed.

What doesn't fall back?

The water in that transparent pipe, stupid.

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote just the usual
mindless silly stuff. How odd that he is the ONLY one
WORLD WIDE that has actually seen a Bosch dishwasher
to what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

You don't know that the OP does see that. ALL you know is that
he doesn't see as good a water flow thru the rotating arms during
the wash phase as he sees during the rinse phase. You don't know
why he see that.

completely ignore the chassis water level
detector in the rinses AFTER the wash phase

That's what it does.

How odd that no one except you WORLD WIDE
has ever seen a Bosch dishwasher do that.

and use the fetid dregs left in the sump
maybe for weeks to wash the dishes with

It pre-washes with those dregs plus the first feed.

Bull****. The dregs are flushed out the outlet with
added water before anything is pumped thru the
rotating arms because that is the only way to get
what may well be fetid dregs out of the sump,
by flushing them out by running the outlet
pump with water coming in thru the solenoid.

The problem with the broken washer
is that the first feed is inhibited.

How odd that no one except you WORLD WIDE
has ever seen a Bosch dishwasher do that.

if there appears to have been a leak
instead of just stopping with a fault code.

My dishwasher does not appear to have any means
to communicate a fault code. There are no lights

Bull****. There is always at least a light that indicates
that the dishwasher is operating. That can obviously
be flashed to indicate an error code.

- what else do you think it could do. Hint: it
doesn't produce a complex beep-code either.

Anything that beeps can obviously be beeped
with a different pattern to indicate an error.

Tell us the product code of your Bosch dishwasher.
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/customer...appliance.html

Bet you will now claim that there isnt one.

You'll have to pardon us if we decide that you don't
actually have a ****ing clue about dishwashers.

In message , at 07:27:58 on Thu, 11
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in


Never said anything about the next set of dirty dishes.

Compare the two lines above.

I just don't believe that any dishwasher is actually stupid enough to
attempt to do the entire wash phase with the stagnant fetid water that
may have been in the sump for weeks when it decides that there has been
a leak into the chassis,

You may not believe it but it's what mine does.

which would have seen the sump empty into the chassis with nothing to
pump into the rotating arms ANYWAY.

Except there's no leak as big as that, so the sump water does pump up as
far as the rotating arms.

because it flows through various up-and-over pipery, and if the
level on the inlet side doesn't reach the top of that, nothing can
flow into the washer.

It doesn't fall back when the solenoid is closed.

What doesn't fall back?

The water in that transparent pipe, stupid.

If it falls back at all, it's into the inlet, not output, side.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The drips off the new dirty plates you've been stacking in

Never said anything about the next set of dirty dishes.

Compare the two lines above.

The first one says nothing about the NEXT SET OF DISHES.

It was talking about the ONE SET OF DISHES, what you put
in the dishwasher before starting it and what can get into
the sump before the dishwasher is started, the water that
drips off that ONE set of dishes if some fool has been stupid
enough to put them under the tap to get the worst of the
remains of the food off before putting them in the dishwasher.

I just don't believe that any dishwasher is actually stupid
enough to attempt to do the entire wash phase with the
stagnant fetid water that may have been in the sump for weeks
when it decides that there has been a leak into the chassis,

You may not believe it but it's what mine does.

How odd that no one else WORLD WIDE actually
reports their Bosch dishwasher doing that.

which would have seen the sump empty into the chassis
with nothing to pump into the rotating arms ANYWAY.

Except there's no leak as big as that,

There must be if the water in the chassis
detector goes off and isnt faulty.

so the sump water does pump up as far as the rotating arms.

How odd that no one else WORLD WIDE actually
reports their Bosch dishwasher doing that.

because it flows through various up-and-over pipery,
and if the level on the inlet side doesn't reach the top
of that, nothing can flow into the washer.

It doesn't fall back when the solenoid is closed.

What doesn't fall back?

The water in that transparent pipe, stupid.

If it falls back at all,

It can't because by definition that solenoid is closed.

it's into the inlet, not output, side.

Duh.

In message , at 07:44:05 on Thu, 11
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:

How odd that he is the ONLY one
WORLD WIDE that has actually seen a Bosch dishwasher
to what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

You don't know that the OP does see that.

"My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't
seem to take on board enough water. If you chuck extra water in it
seems to work fine but otherwise you can hear the pump running and if
you yank the door open, you can just witness some feeble jets of water
coming from the washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate."

ALL you know is that he doesn't see as good a water flow thru the
rotating arms during the wash phase as he sees during the rinse phase.
You don't know why he see that.

The only credible reason is that it failed to put any new water in.

Bull****. There is always at least a light that indicates
that the dishwasher is operating. That can obviously
be flashed to indicate an error code.
- what else do you think it could do. Hint: it doesn't produce a
complex beep-code either.

Anything that beeps can obviously be beeped with a different pattern to
indicate an error.

Except it doesn't in my case. Other dishwashers I've had might have
done.

Tell us the product code of your Bosch dishwasher.
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/customer-service/identify-your-appliance.html

It's an SE64630GB manufactured by Bosch, branded by Siemens.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

How odd that he is the ONLY one WORLD WIDE that has actually seen a
Bosch dishwasher to what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

You don't know that the OP does see that.

"My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't
seem to take on board enough water.

That isnt the same as taking NO WATER ON BOARD
and being actually stupid enough to attempt to do
the wash phase with JUST the dregs in the sump
that may be completely fetid because the
dishwasher hasn't been used for weeks.

If you chuck extra water in it seems to work fine but otherwise you can
hear the pump running and if you yank the door open, you can just witness
some feeble jets of water coming from the washing arms, too feebly to make
them rotate."

See above.

ALL you know is that he doesn't see as good a water flow thru the
rotating arms during the wash phase as he sees during the rinse phase.
You don't know why he sees that.

The only credible reason is that it failed to put any new water in.

Bull****. The other obvious possibility is that the solenoid
valve is all scaled up and that's why there is LESS water
to pump around than there should be with the pump
that pumps water into the rotating arms basically
sucking mostly air from the sump.

Bull****. There is always at least a light that indicates
that the dishwasher is operating. That can obviously
be flashed to indicate an error code.

- what else do you think it could do. Hint: it doesn't produce a
complex beep-code either.

Anything that beeps can obviously be beeped with a different pattern to
indicate an error.

Except it doesn't in my case.

It clearly does have at least two ways of error coding.

I just don't believe that Bosch is actually stupid enough
to see water in the chassis as chooses to carry on regardless,
deliberately not add any water at all, do the entire wash
phase using the dregs in the sump and not stop instead.

Other dishwashers I've had might have done.

Tell us the product code of your Bosch dishwasher.
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/customer-service/identify-your-appliance.html

It's an SE64630GB manufactured by Bosch, branded by Siemens.

There are two more digits after that.

That shows that there is more than one light available to do an error code
with and that two of the 4 programs don't have a pre wash as well.

And quite a few people have said that if that dishwasher
detects water in the chassis, it runs the drain pump
continuously, even with the door open, and that is
exactly what you would expect Bosch to do and is
nothing like what you claim to have seen.
http://www.justanswer.com/uk-applian...13-fd7908.html

In message , at 07:24:28 on Fri, 12
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:

How odd that he is the ONLY one WORLD WIDE that has actually seen
a Bosch dishwasher to what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

You don't know that the OP does see that.

"My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just
doesn't seem to take on board enough water.

That isnt the same as taking NO WATER ON BOARD

But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board, because the exact same
scenario played put on my dishwasher is the result of no additional
water being added (just the dregs in the sump being pumped round).

and being actually stupid enough to attempt to do
the wash phase with JUST the dregs in the sump
that may be completely fetid because the
dishwasher hasn't been used for weeks.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat your rebuttal, it's what is
happening.

If you chuck extra water in it seems to work fine but otherwise you
can hear the pump running and if you yank the door open, you can just
witness some feeble jets of water coming from the washing arms, too
feebly to make them rotate."

See above.

That's right. He's describing exactly the same as I do.

ALL you know is that he doesn't see as good a water flow thru the
rotating arms during the wash phase as he sees during the rinse
phase. You don't know why he sees that.

The only credible reason is that it failed to put any new water in.

Bull****. The other obvious possibility is that the solenoid
valve is all scaled up and that's why there is LESS water
to pump around than there should be with the pump
that pumps water into the rotating arms basically
sucking mostly air from the sump.

Two reasons why that's an incorrect diagnosis.

No, three:

I took the solenoid out and examined it. Not scaled up.

No water at all flows at the start of the cycle .

Plenty of water flows during the rinse cycles (as observed through the
transparent tubes in the side of the washer, and also inside sloshing
around).

I just don't believe that Bosch is actually stupid enough
to see water in the chassis as chooses to carry on regardless,
deliberately not add any water at all, do the entire wash
phase using the dregs in the sump and not stop instead.

I know you don't believe it. But it's true.

Other dishwashers I've had might have done.

Tell us the product code of your Bosch dishwasher.
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/customer...ur-appliance.h


It's an SE64630GB manufactured by Bosch, branded by Siemens.

There are two more digits after that.

That shows that there is more than one light available to do an error code
with

There's only one light, called "End".

and that two of the 4 programs don't have a pre wash as well.

And quite a few people have said that if that dishwasher
detects water in the chassis, it runs the drain pump
continuously, even with the door open

That's a small bit of progress. At least you now accept there is a
chassis and that it does have a leak detector.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

How odd that he is the ONLY one WORLD WIDE that has actually seen a
Bosch dishwasher to what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

You don't know that the OP does see that.

"My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just doesn't
seem to take on board enough water.

That isnt the same as taking NO WATER ON BOARD

But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board,

But you have no basis what so ever for that
surety and there isnt enough water left in the
sump after its been pumped out to provide
enough to pump thru the rotating arms and
no Bosch has ever been so badly designed
that it ever operates like that, attempts to do
the entire wash phase with JUST what remained
in the sump at the end of the final pump out
with the previous use of the dishwasher.

In spades when its detected water in the chassis,
it actually keeps pumping out the sump even
when the door is opened to see why it never
starts to wash the dishes.

because the exact same scenario played put on my dishwasher is the result
of no additional water being added (just the dregs in the sump being
pumped round).

How odd that NO ONE, WORLD WIDE has EVER
reported seeing a Bosch dishwasher ever do that.

and being actually stupid enough to attempt to do the wash phase with
JUST the dregs in the sump that may be completely fetid because the
dishwasher hasn't been used for weeks.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat your rebuttal, it's what is
happening.

It doesn't matter how many times you claim that,
you continue to have a problem with explaining
why any dishwasher designer would ever actually
be stupid enough to design it to do that, and why
NO ONE, WORLD WIDE has EVER reported seeing
a Bosch dishwasher ever do that.

If you chuck extra water in it seems to work fine but otherwise you can
hear the pump running and if you yank the door open, you can just
witness some feeble jets of water coming from the washing arms, too
feebly to make them rotate."

See above.

That's right. He's describing exactly the same as I do.

Pigs arse he is. THERE ISNT ENOUGH WATER LEFT IN THE SUMP
AFTER THE FINAL PUMP OUT AT THE END OF THE LAST USE TO
SEE ANYTHING COME OUT THE WASHING ARMS AT ALL even if
the someone was actually stupid enough to design the dishwasher
to operate like that when it decides that there is water in the chassis.

ALL you know is that he doesn't see as good a water flow thru the
rotating arms during the wash phase as he sees during the rinse phase.
You don't know why he sees that.

The only credible reason is that it failed to put any new water in.

Bull****. The other obvious possibility is that the solenoid valve is all
scaled up and that's why there is LESS water to pump around than there
should be with the pump that pumps water into the rotating arms basically
sucking mostly air from the sump.

Two reasons why that's an incorrect diagnosis.

No, three:

I took the solenoid out and examined it. Not scaled up.

You didn't take HIS out and see if its scaled up.

No water at all flows at the start of the cycle .

Bull****. If none at all flows, the dishwasher would
detect that and fail to start the cycle, as the manual
clearly says in the troubleshooting section.

Plenty of water flows during the rinse cycles (as observed through the
transparent tubes in the side of the washer, and also inside sloshing
around).

Because repeated use of the solenoid does see
enough of a flow to get enough water into the
sump to pump around in the later rinse cycles.

I just don't believe that Bosch is actually stupid enough to see water in
the chassis and chooses to carry on regardless,
deliberately not add any water at all, do the entire wash
phase using the dregs in the sump and not stop instead.

I know you don't believe it. But it's true.

How odd that NO ONE, WORLD WIDE has EVER
reported seeing a Bosch dishwasher ever do that.

Other dishwashers I've had might have done.

Tell us the product code of your Bosch dishwasher.
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/customer...ur-appliance.h

It's an SE64630GB manufactured by Bosch, branded by Siemens.

There are two more digits after that.

Why didn't you provide those extra numbers ?

That shows that there is more than one light available to do an error
code with

There's only one light, called "End".

Still plenty to flash with an error code.

and that two of the 4 programs don't have a pre wash as well.

Which you have always been too stupid to even notice.

And quite a few people have said that if that dishwasher detects water in
the chassis, it runs the drain pump continuously, even with the door open

That's a small bit of progress.

Nope.

At least you now accept there is a chassis

There has to be to stop it all falling on a heap on the floor, fool.

and that it does have a leak detector.

I never said that it didn't. And in fact I told you how to
check if that is what sees the dishwasher do what you
stupidly keep claiming that it does, even tho NO ONE,
WORLD WIDE has EVER reported seeing a Bosch
dishwasher ever do that.

In message , at 13:35:49 on Sat, 13
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

How odd that he is the ONLY one WORLD WIDE that has actually
seen a Bosch dishwasher to what is completely stupid for a
dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

You don't know that the OP does see that.

"My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash it just
doesn't seem to take on board enough water.

That isnt the same as taking NO WATER ON BOARD

But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board,

But you have no basis what so ever for that surety

Of course I do - I have watched the transparent pipes in the side of the
washer (having removed the covers), and no water flows.

Unless you can answer that, I don't think you have any credibility.

[Snip: lots of blather than can wait until you answer the above]
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

How odd that he is the ONLY one WORLD WIDE
that has actually seen a Bosch dishwasher to
what is completely stupid for a dishwasher to do,

Me and the OP.

You don't know that the OP does see that.

"My mother's old Bosch is playing up. On a normal wash
it just doesn't seem to take on board enough water.

That isnt the same as taking NO WATER ON BOARD

But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board,

But you have no basis what so ever for that surety

Of course I do - I have watched the transparent pipes in the side
of the washer (having removed the covers), and no water flows.

But you haven't done that with the OP's dishwasher, so you
don't have a clue if that is happening with his dishwasher.

Unless you can answer that, I don't think you have any credibility.

You're the one with not a shred of credibility when what you
claim the dishwasher is doing when it detects water in the
chassis has never ever been seen by anyone else, WORLD WIDE.

In message , at 06:25:53 on Mon, 15
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board,

But you have no basis what so ever for that surety

Of course I do - I have watched the transparent pipes in the side of
the washer (having removed the covers), and no water flows.

But you haven't done that with the OP's dishwasher, so you don't have a
clue if that is happening with his dishwasher.

His symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board,

But you have no basis what so ever for that surety

Of course I do - I have watched the transparent pipes in the side
of the washer (having removed the covers), and no water flows.

But you haven't done that with the OP's dishwasher, so you
don't have a clue if that is happening with his dishwasher.

His symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

In message , at 06:09:09 on Tue, 16
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board,

But you have no basis what so ever for that surety

Of course I do - I have watched the transparent pipes in the side
of the washer (having removed the covers), and no water flows.

But you haven't done that with the OP's dishwasher, so you don't
have a clue if that is happening with his dishwasher.

His symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

His description of the amount of water circulating "you can just witness
some feeble jets of water coming from the washing arms, too feebly to
make them rotate" exactly accords with what I observe in my washer.

I don't know of a mechanism which would allow, say, 10% of the fill to
happen, rather than either 0% or 100%. Mine exhibits the symptoms above
with 0%.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But I'm quite sure it's taking no water on board,

But you have no basis what so ever for that surety

Of course I do - I have watched the transparent pipes in the side
of the washer (having removed the covers), and no water flows.

But you haven't done that with the OP's dishwasher, so you don't
have a clue if that is happening with his dishwasher.

His symptoms are exactly the same as mine.

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

His description of the amount of water circulating "you can just witness
some feeble jets of water coming from the washing arms, too feebly to
make them rotate" exactly accords with what I observe in my washer.

But you can get the same result with a scaled up solenoid
and I just don't believe that any Bosch has so much left in
the sump after the final pump out at the end of the last
use to get anything thru the rotating arms if the dishwasher
is actually stupid enough to try doing the entire wash phase
using just what remains in the sump, or that any Bosch
dishwasher is ever actually stupid enough to do that when
it sees water in the chassis, given that no one WORLD WIDE
has EVER seen a Bosch dishwasher do that and in fact have
seen them just pump to the outlet continuously instead, even
with the door open when they detect a leak to the chassis.

I don't know of a mechanism which would allow, say,
10% of the fill to happen, rather than either 0% or 100%.

Obviously a scaled up solenoid that lets
much less water thru that it is supposed to.

But that doesn't explain why the dishwasher doesn't just decide
that its filling too slowly and just stop with an error code.

Mine exhibits the symptoms above with 0%.

How odd that no one else world wide
has ever seen a Bosch dishwasher do that.

You'll have to pardon us if we decide that you
don't have a ****ing clue about dishwashers and
that it either doesn't do that or you are lying thru
your teeth.

In message , at 06:50:52 on Wed, 17
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

"On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay", so water is added later, just
like mine.

His description of the amount of water circulating "you can just
witness some feeble jets of water coming from the washing arms, too
feebly to make them rotate" exactly accords with what I observe in my
washer.

But you can get the same result with a scaled up solenoid

Mine isn't scaled up. I took it out and checked. It also allows the
normal amount of water in for the rinse cycles.

I'm sure it doesn't have "smart scale" that prevents wash water entering
but allows rinse water.

and I just don't believe that any Bosch has so much left in the sump
after the final pump out at the end of the last use to get anything
thru the rotating arms if the dishwasher

I don't care what you believe - that's what happens.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

"On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay",
so water is added later, just like mine.

But that could well be just because the solenoid
has been used more by then and so some of the
scaling has been dislodged.

I just don't believe that any Bosch dishwasher chooses
to do the entire wash phase with just the filthy dregs
left in the sump because it has detected water in the
chassis and then just ignores the water in the chassis
and does the rinses as per normal given that NO ONE
world wide has EVER reported a Bosch dishwasher
doing that and have in fact reported that your
dishwasher actually pumps the sump to the outlet
continuously even with the door open and doesn't
even start the wash phase at all if it has detected
water in the chassis.

His description of the amount of water circulating
"you can just witness some feeble jets of water coming
from the washing arms, too feebly to make them rotate"
exactly accords with what I observe in my washer.

But you can get the same result with a scaled up solenoid

Mine isn't scaled up. I took it out and checked.

But you have no idea about his.

It also allows the normal amount of water in for the rinse cycles.

How odd that no one else world wide has reported that behaviour
with that particular dishwasher with water in the chassis.

and I just don't believe that any Bosch has so much left
in the sump after the final pump out at the end of the last
use to get anything thru the rotating arms if the dishwasher

I don't care what you believe - that's what happens.

How odd that no one else world wide has ever seen that
dishwasher do that and have in fact seen it do just what
you would expect it to do, pump the sump to the outlet
continuously even with the door open and fail to start
the wash phase at all.

Presumably you must actually have a chinese
clone of the real Bosch dishwasher and they
****ed up the programming completely.

In message , at 07:35:49 on Thu, 18
Dec 2014, Rod Speed remarked:
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

"On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay", so water is added later,
just like mine.

But that could well be just because the solenoid
has been used more by then and so some of the
scaling has been dislodged.

I've taken the solenoid out and examined it. No scale.

I just don't believe that any Bosch dishwasher chooses to do the entire
wash phase with just the filthy dregs left in the sump because it has
detected water in the chassis and then just ignores the water in the
chassis and does the rinses as per normal given that NO ONE world wide
has EVER reported a Bosch dishwasher doing that and have in fact
reported that your dishwasher actually pumps the sump to the outlet
continuously even with the door open and doesn't even start the wash
phase at all if it has detected water in the chassis.

However often you say that, the evidence is otherwise.

Although there's a third possibility, which is that the operation I
observe is the result of a control fault. If so, how do I cure that
fault.

Presumably you must actually have a chinese clone of the real Bosch
dishwasher and they ****ed up the programming completely.

Unlikely. It was bought locally by a high-end builder 14 years ago,
albeit branded Siemens.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Roland Perry wrote
Rod Speed wrote

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

"On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay", so water is added later, just
like mine.

But that could well be just because the solenoid
has been used more by then and so some of the
scaling has been dislodged.

I've taken the solenoid out and examined it. No scale.

You didn't take his out and examine it.

I just don't believe that any Bosch dishwasher chooses to do the entire
wash phase with just the filthy dregs left in the sump because it has
detected water in the chassis and then just ignores the water in the
chassis and does the rinses as per normal given that NO ONE world wide
has EVER reported a Bosch dishwasher doing that and have in fact reported
that your dishwasher actually pumps the sump to the outlet continuously
even with the door open and doesn't even start the wash phase at all if
it has detected water in the chassis.

However often you say that, the evidence is otherwise.

However often you say that, NO ONE ELSE WORLD WIDE
has ever seen what you claim to have seen, so either you
are lying thru your teeth deliberately or you ended up
with a chinese clone of a real Bosch dishwasher.

And its completely trivial to prove that no Bosch dishwasher
behaves like that by putting some water into the chassis and
see if it behaves the way you claim yours does. They don't.

Although there's a third possibility, which is that the operation I
observe is the result of a control fault.

Very unlikely indeed given the completely different behaviour
you claim to have seen than how Bosch dishwashers are known
to do when they detect water in the chassis due to a leak.

If so, how do I cure that fault.

Obviously swapping the controller will do that.

Presumably you must actually have a chinese clone of the real Bosch
dishwasher and they ****ed up the programming completely.

Unlikely. It was bought locally by a high-end builder 14 years ago, albeit
branded Siemens.

Bet you have actually fooled yourself or you are lying thru your teeth
deliberately.

In message , at 06:58:24 on Fri, 19 Dec
2014, Rod Speed remarked:

You have absolutely no idea if his is letting
no water in at all until after the wash phase.

"On a rinse cycle it seems to work okay", so water is added later,
just like mine.

But that could well be just because the solenoid
has been used more by then and so some of the
scaling has been dislodged.

I've taken the solenoid out and examined it. No scale.

You didn't take his out and examine it.

But given that later in the cycle his machine let rinse water in, I
suspect we can conclude it's not a blocked valve.

--
Roland Perry