Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

Regards

Stephen.

On 17/09/14 07:42, Stephen wrote:
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

I have had a bit of temporary JG Speedfit feeding a tap outside dropping
down the outside wall for 3 years and it did not seem to suffer during
the winter.

Plastic will have enough give to cope with freezing expansion.

Copper will generally survive too - but the joints may not.

On 17/09/2014 08:24, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/09/14 07:42, Stephen wrote:
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the
house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

I have had a bit of temporary JG Speedfit feeding a tap outside dropping
down the outside wall for 3 years and it did not seem to suffer during
the winter.

Plastic will have enough give to cope with freezing expansion.

Copper will generally survive too - but the joints may not.

I've put quite a few patches in copper pipes now. Not the joints, the pipes.

(can't drain that bit fully, house has no heating when we're away. It's
now been redone in plastic with more sensible pipe runs now)

In message , Stephen
writes
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the
house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

My vote is for plastic.

However, pipe routing may be more important. If you arrange for the
pipes to rise significantly all the way to the taps, you should be OK
anyway. Concentrated cold draughts also worth avoiding.
--
Tim Lamb

On 17/09/2014 08:26, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Stephen
writes
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6
inches to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the
garage during the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the
house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

My vote is for plastic.

However, pipe routing may be more important. If you arrange for the
pipes to rise significantly all the way to the taps, you should be OK
anyway. Concentrated cold draughts also worth avoiding.

Pipe routing will be *interesting*

The two H&C pipes come out at ceiling level in the garage (they come
through from between the bedroom floor and lounge ceiling)

So the pipes have to traverse the garage for 2.5m to a corner and then
drop down to the floor for 2m down said corner, and then back across
under the sink 1m and then a short length up to the taps.

I'd be surprised if such a short run from the warm environment of the inside of your house would allow the pipes to get down below freezing in anything but the most extreme of winters. With copper, as a good thermal conductor and with lagging, I would imagine the chances are pretty much zero.

Entertaining the notion of extreme winters to come, perhaps similar to the one we had four years back, you could use a line heater to keep pipe contents in liquid form. That's what I did in my garage after the copper burst in multiple locations on long, unlagged runs, during that winter four years ago.

At the same time as the pipe burst described above, a temporary Portakabin office that I was in at work had its plumbing fail. This was plastic pipe and the pipe itself remained intact, but the push fit joints were forced off by the freezing. My guess is that the best approach for resistance to freezing damage would be plastic pipe with copper joint inserts and compression fittings.

All the best.

Terry.

On 17/09/2014 09:13, wrote:
I'd be surprised if such a short run from the warm environment of the inside of your house would allow the pipes to get down below freezing in anything but the most extreme of winters. With copper, as a good thermal conductor and with lagging, I would imagine the chances are pretty much zero.

There would be a pipe total run length of 5.5m to 6.0m from where it
enters the garage and ends up at the taps

Entertaining the notion of extreme winters to come, perhaps similar to the one we had four years back, you could use a line heater to keep pipe contents in liquid form. That's what I did in my garage after the copper burst in multiple locations on long, unlagged runs, during that winter four years ago.

I am hoping to avoid trace heaters if I can use a passive solution instead

At the same time as the pipe burst described above, a temporary Portakabin office that I was in at work had its plumbing fail. This was plastic pipe and the pipe itself remained intact, but the push fit joints were forced off by the freezing. My guess is that the best approach for resistance to freezing damage would be plastic pipe with copper joint inserts and compression fittings.

At least with plastic pipes. depending on the routing you can use less
joints compared to copper......


All the best.

Terry.

On 17/09/2014 17:39, Stephen wrote:


At least with plastic pipes. depending on the routing you can use less
joints compared to copper......


That is true but, if they show, they don't look very good because its
quite difficult to keep them straight. Copper pipe with soldered elbows,
etc. will look far better.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Stephen wrote:
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

Regards

Stephen.

I'd use copper, but also fit a radiator from the house heating. My
outside tap is copper plumbed for a couple of uninsulated feet and
hasn't failed in 40yrs.

On 17/09/2014 10:21, Capitol wrote:
Stephen wrote:
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the
house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

Regards

Stephen.

I'd use copper, but also fit a radiator from the house heating. My
outside tap is copper plumbed for a couple of uninsulated feet and
hasn't failed in 40yrs.

It would have to be a hell of a massive radiator as the garage is a
single skin wall, there is no ceiling to speak of, there is no loft or
rafter insulation and the door is a metal single skin door...... and
thats just the fabric heat loss.....

As for ventilation heat loss, the roof is open at the eaves and there
are no draught excluders around the garage door.

Stephen wrote:
On 17/09/2014 10:21, Capitol wrote:
Stephen wrote:
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the
house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

Regards

Stephen.

I'd use copper, but also fit a radiator from the house heating. My
outside tap is copper plumbed for a couple of uninsulated feet and
hasn't failed in 40yrs.

It would have to be a hell of a massive radiator as the garage is a
single skin wall, there is no ceiling to speak of, there is no loft or
rafter insulation and the door is a metal single skin door...... and
thats just the fabric heat loss.....

As for ventilation heat loss, the roof is open at the eaves and there
are no draught excluders around the garage door.

Sounds like you've just found the next project then!

In message , Stephen
writes
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem? Having said
that, our outside tap is fed via plastic pipe, and has always been
fine, he says, touching wood. I turn off the stopcock during winter,
and leave the outside tap open, but sometimes forget. We are in
Aberdeenshire, and the plastic pipe goes through a solid granite wall,
three feet thick.

--
Graeme

On 17/09/2014 10:37, News wrote:
In message , Stephen
writes
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6
inches to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the
garage during the winter.

Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem? Having said
that, our outside tap is fed via plastic pipe, and has always been fine,
he says, touching wood. I turn off the stopcock during winter, and leave
the outside tap open, but sometimes forget. We are in Aberdeenshire, and
the plastic pipe goes through a solid granite wall, three feet thick.


Late or not, the stop valves *definitely* need to be inside the house,
and not on the cold side. If they're in the garage, you could have a
major leak if the pipes burst on the supply side of the valves.

If you do that, it doesn't matter what sort of pipe you use - just turn
the stoptaps off and leave the garage sink taps open. Ideally, also put
drain taps at the lowest points.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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checked.

On 17/09/2014 12:29, Roger Mills wrote:
On 17/09/2014 10:37, News wrote:
In message , Stephen
writes
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6
inches to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the
garage during the winter.

Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem? Having said
that, our outside tap is fed via plastic pipe, and has always been fine,
he says, touching wood. I turn off the stopcock during winter, and leave
the outside tap open, but sometimes forget. We are in Aberdeenshire, and
the plastic pipe goes through a solid granite wall, three feet thick.


Late or not, the stop valves *definitely* need to be inside the house,
and not on the cold side. If they're in the garage, you could have a
major leak if the pipes burst on the supply side of the valves.

See my reply to previous poster

If you do that, it doesn't matter what sort of pipe you use - just turn
the stoptaps off and leave the garage sink taps open. Ideally, also put
drain taps at the lowest points.

I plan to put in draincocks anyway.

On 17/09/2014 10:37, News wrote:
In message , Stephen
writes
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6
inches to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the
garage during the winter.

Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem?

The H&C pipes run between the ground floor ceiling and the first floor
floorboards.

A bedroom and a lounge is adjacent to said garage. putting stopvalves on
the inside would mean valves on the wall near the ceiling in lounge or
near the floor in the bedroom..

Thats why as soon as the copper pipework entered the garage, I then
fitted stop valves to this. I can insulate the pipes between the wall
and the stopvalves.


Having said
that, our outside tap is fed via plastic pipe, and has always been
fine, he says, touching wood. I turn off the stopcock during winter,
and leave the outside tap open, but sometimes forget. We are in
Aberdeenshire, and the plastic pipe goes through a solid granite wall,
three feet thick.

On 17/09/2014 17:43, Stephen wrote:
On 17/09/2014 10:37, News wrote:


Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem?

The H&C pipes run between the ground floor ceiling and the first floor
floorboards.

A bedroom and a lounge is adjacent to said garage. putting stopvalves on
the inside would mean valves on the wall near the ceiling in lounge or
near the floor in the bedroom..

Why not put them under the floorboards, and make a little trap-door for
access?

Thats why as soon as the copper pipework entered the garage, I then
fitted stop valves to this. I can insulate the pipes between the wall
and the stopvalves.

Insulation only delays the onset of freezing - it doesn't prevent it.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 17/09/14 23:00, Roger Mills wrote:
On 17/09/2014 17:43, Stephen wrote:
On 17/09/2014 10:37, News wrote:


Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem?

The H&C pipes run between the ground floor ceiling and the first floor
floorboards.

A bedroom and a lounge is adjacent to said garage. putting stopvalves on
the inside would mean valves on the wall near the ceiling in lounge or
near the floor in the bedroom..

Why not put them under the floorboards, and make a little trap-door for
access?

Thats why as soon as the copper pipework entered the garage, I then
fitted stop valves to this. I can insulate the pipes between the wall
and the stopvalves.

Insulation only delays the onset of freezing - it doesn't prevent it.

It would be enough to delay it until spring

On 17/09/2014 23:00, Roger Mills wrote:
On 17/09/2014 17:43, Stephen wrote:
On 17/09/2014 10:37, News wrote:


Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem?

The H&C pipes run between the ground floor ceiling and the first floor
floorboards.

A bedroom and a lounge is adjacent to said garage. putting stopvalves on
the inside would mean valves on the wall near the ceiling in lounge or
near the floor in the bedroom..

Why not put them under the floorboards, and make a little trap-door for
access?

That would ruin the laminate flooring above it or the ceiling below it.....

Thats why as soon as the copper pipework entered the garage, I then
fitted stop valves to this. I can insulate the pipes between the wall
and the stopvalves.

Insulation only delays the onset of freezing - it doesn't prevent it.

OK.

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 17/09/2014 17:43, Stephen wrote:
On 17/09/2014 10:37, News wrote:


Probably a bit late now, but could you not put the stop valves on the
house side of the wall, so removing the potential problem?

The H&C pipes run between the ground floor ceiling and the first floor
floorboards.

A bedroom and a lounge is adjacent to said garage. putting stopvalves on
the inside would mean valves on the wall near the ceiling in lounge or
near the floor in the bedroom..

Why not put them under the floorboards, and make a little trap-door for
access?

Thats why as soon as the copper pipework entered the garage, I then
fitted stop valves to this. I can insulate the pipes between the wall
and the stopvalves.

Insulation only delays the onset of freezing - it doesn't prevent it.

That isnt necessarily correct. It can prevent it in that situation
if you are getting conduction thru the copper plumbing from
the heated side of the wall, the house, thru to the short stubs
in the garage up to the taps.

On 17/09/2014 07:42, Stephen wrote:
Hi, I have a garage that shares one wall with the house.

I have brought out in copper the hot and cold through the party wall
between house and garage. It projects into the garage by about 6 inches
to a pair of stop valves. (so I can turn off water to the garage during
the winter.

The plan is to put a sink in.

Given that there is no heating in the garage (ts of brick and redland
tile construction. Ther risk of pipe freezing is higher than in the house.

Obviously I will be insulating the pipes.

My question is as follows: which is less likely to burst in cold
weather, Copper or PLastic pipe?

Regards

Stephen.

Plastic will survive being completely frozen, the copper pipes and stop
taps will not!

Put the stop taps inside and run plastic.