One of the plumbers quoting for our refurb has suggested retaining the
existing copper because of the high price of copper pipe ATM.
I am considering this, but suspect that the current central heating may not
be laid out in the best possible manner and the hot/cold water system is not
good because of long pipe runs and cold water pipes touching hot water pipes
so we get hot out of the cold taps for a bit.

So ideally I would like to replace it all and start from scratch.

Which brings me to several options, as usual.

(1) Do it all in plastic and swing in the old copper for scrap to offset a
bit of the cost.
(2) Do it all in new copper and swing in the old copper for scrap to offset
a bit of the cost.
(3) Mix old and new copper in an unknown (ATM) ratio.
(4) Mix old copper and new plastic in an unknown (ATM) ratio.

So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered the
push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he suggested a
magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100% informed).
Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not to use plastic?
Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Secondly, and more importantly, how much copper pipe would be needed to
replumb your average 3 bedroom semi?
[Psychics to supply own chrystal balls.]
Screwfix is showing 30m of 15mm pipe (3m * 10) at £77.90 so 60m of 15mm
would be £160 which isn't a great deal compared with labour and the cost of
new radiators.
Waving a tape measure about I would think that 90m of 15mm and 30m of 20mm
might do most of it but I could be way out.
That would be (£80 * 3) + £150 = £390 so it is starting to add up.
[Then again we had some dodgy copper in our last house which pinholed out so
there is an argument for all new.]

30mm of 15mm flotex plastic is £24.50 and 30m of 22mm flotex £46.90 so
plastic pipe is about 1/3 of copper pipe but you then have to pay for the
fittings which are a lot more expensive than capilliary copper. Then again
push fit is a lot quicker than even the fastes plumber soldering so there is
a potential saving on labour costs.

So - what does the team think?

TIA

Dave R


--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 11:28:08 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

So - what does the team think?

Are the pipes run in floor voids or roof spaces? Rodents *love* nice
soft chewy things like plastic... They can't easily get purchase on
plain pipe but the joints have lot's of loverly sticky out bits to
sink their sharp little teeth into.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered
the push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he
suggested a magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100%
informed). Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not
to use plastic? Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Unless you intend DIYing it, accept what your pro wants to do. Telling him
he must use *your* choice of materials is an excellent 'get out' clause
for him if anything goes wrong.

If you want to have plastic used, find another plumber who prefers this.

--
*If you can read this, thank a teecher

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 11:28:08 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:

Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not to use plastic?

None at all. Save guarding against rodent chewing, but it's rare the
buggers actually chew the pipes.

Plastic pipe and compression joints?

It's what I've always done, and in hundreds of joints never had a
failure.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered
the push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he
suggested a magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100%
informed). Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not
to use plastic? Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Unless you intend DIYing it, accept what your pro wants to do. Telling him
he must use *your* choice of materials is an excellent 'get out' clause
for him if anything goes wrong.

If you want to have plastic used, find another plumber who prefers this.


Plumber has said he will do plastic if we want.
More interested in views as to the long term viability of plastic, and if
plastic push fit vs. compression joint.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

*Top post alert*
Just to note that I would do it myself but I am employing a builder to do
the main construction work and my slow, steady, bugger it the sun's shining
it'll keep a couple of days method of plumbing will probably not fit in with
his planned timescales and any delay will come directly out of my pocket.
Plus I have to have a gas fitter anyway to extend the main and fit the combi
and hob.

snip

Which brings me to several options, as usual.

(1) Do it all in plastic and swing in the old copper for scrap to offset a
bit of the cost.
(2) Do it all in new copper and swing in the old copper for scrap to
offset a bit of the cost.
(3) Mix old and new copper in an unknown (ATM) ratio.
(4) Mix old copper and new plastic in an unknown (ATM) ratio.
snip


--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 09/06/2012 11:28, David WE Roberts wrote:
One of the plumbers quoting for our refurb has suggested retaining the
existing copper because of the high price of copper pipe ATM.
I am considering this, but suspect that the current central heating may
not be laid out in the best possible manner and the hot/cold water
system is not good because of long pipe runs and cold water pipes
touching hot water pipes so we get hot out of the cold taps for a bit.

So ideally I would like to replace it all and start from scratch.

Which brings me to several options, as usual.

(1) Do it all in plastic and swing in the old copper for scrap to offset
a bit of the cost.
(2) Do it all in new copper and swing in the old copper for scrap to
offset a bit of the cost.
(3) Mix old and new copper in an unknown (ATM) ratio.
(4) Mix old copper and new plastic in an unknown (ATM) ratio.




I built a new build and used copper from Boiler to Thermal store,
Plastic everywhere else.
It is so much easier running it like cable ... means far less joints ...
so far fewer points of potential failure.

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
On 09/06/2012 11:28, David WE Roberts wrote:
One of the plumbers quoting for our refurb has suggested retaining the
existing copper because of the high price of copper pipe ATM.
I am considering this, but suspect that the current central heating may
not be laid out in the best possible manner and the hot/cold water
system is not good because of long pipe runs and cold water pipes
touching hot water pipes so we get hot out of the cold taps for a bit.

So ideally I would like to replace it all and start from scratch.

Which brings me to several options, as usual.

(1) Do it all in plastic and swing in the old copper for scrap to offset
a bit of the cost.
(2) Do it all in new copper and swing in the old copper for scrap to
offset a bit of the cost.
(3) Mix old and new copper in an unknown (ATM) ratio.
(4) Mix old copper and new plastic in an unknown (ATM) ratio.




I built a new build and used copper from Boiler to Thermal store, Plastic
everywhere else.
It is so much easier running it like cable ... means far less joints ...
so far fewer points of potential failure.


Thanks - I assume you got a reel of plastic pipe and not lengths?

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

David WE Roberts wrote:
One of the plumbers quoting for our refurb has suggested retaining the
existing copper because of the high price of copper pipe ATM.
I am considering this, but suspect that the current central heating
may not be laid out in the best possible manner and the hot/cold
water system is not good because of long pipe runs and cold water
pipes touching hot water pipes so we get hot out of the cold taps for
a bit.
So ideally I would like to replace it all and start from scratch.

Which brings me to several options, as usual.

(1) Do it all in plastic and swing in the old copper for scrap to
offset a bit of the cost.
(2) Do it all in new copper and swing in the old copper for scrap to
offset a bit of the cost.
(3) Mix old and new copper in an unknown (ATM) ratio.
(4) Mix old copper and new plastic in an unknown (ATM) ratio.

So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered
the push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he
suggested a magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100%
informed). Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not to
use
plastic? Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Secondly, and more importantly, how much copper pipe would be needed
to replumb your average 3 bedroom semi?
[Psychics to supply own chrystal balls.]
Screwfix is showing 30m of 15mm pipe (3m * 10) at £77.90 so 60m of
15mm would be £160 which isn't a great deal compared with labour and
the cost of new radiators.
Waving a tape measure about I would think that 90m of 15mm and 30m of
20mm might do most of it but I could be way out.
That would be (£80 * 3) + £150 = £390 so it is starting to add up.
[Then again we had some dodgy copper in our last house which pinholed
out so there is an argument for all new.]

30mm of 15mm flotex plastic is £24.50 and 30m of 22mm flotex £46.90 so
plastic pipe is about 1/3 of copper pipe but you then have to pay for
the fittings which are a lot more expensive than capilliary copper.
Then again push fit is a lot quicker than even the fastes plumber
soldering so there is a potential saving on labour costs.

Can only say that plastic, especially the joints, look revolting on the
surface, so any parts that are to be along skirtings or otherwise on show,
really need to be copper.
The fittings are huge and stand out like a sore thumb, also the runs of
plain pipe never seem to be straight - they always try to go back to being
coiled up, so if the rats / mice etc are going to be a problem where the
plastic's not on show, you might wnt to look at a mixture of old and new
copper for both asthetic and economical reasons.
Copper only usually pinholes if it is attacked by verdigris, which usually
forms in damp conditions or under concrete if it's not wrapped properly

David WE Roberts wrote:


Thanks - I assume you got a reel of plastic pipe and not lengths?

a 50m roll of 15mm is about 55 quid, and 22mm X 50m is about £104

On Jun 9, 11:28*am, "David WE Roberts" wrote:

So - what does the team think?

Avoid Floplast joints.

I used these once and ended up having to replace them weeks later
because they were all weeping. Screwfix refunded me (+£50 voucher)
and took it up with the manufacturer. There had been previous known
problems which were supposedly cured. The £50 didn't make up for the
hassle of removing kitchen units.

There were many complaints on the Screwfix forum at the time which I
only discovered after fitting the wretched things.

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered
the push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he
suggested a magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100%
informed). Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not
to use plastic? Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Unless you intend DIYing it, accept what your pro wants to do. Telling
him
he must use *your* choice of materials is an excellent 'get out' clause
for him if anything goes wrong.

If you want to have plastic used, find another plumber who prefers this.


Plumber has said he will do plastic if we want.
More interested in views as to the long term viability of plastic, and if
plastic push fit vs. compression joint.

I have plastic and copper in my CH and in my mains water systems.
Its only been in there for 30 years so I can't vouch for its reliability.

I have had both copper fittings and copper pipe fail in my fathers house but
they were about 40 years old.
The copper pipe just developed a pin hole in the middle of a length for no
apparent reason, soon fixed by putting a new bit in with plastic push fit
fittings.

"Phil L" wrote in message
...
David WE Roberts wrote:


Thanks - I assume you got a reel of plastic pipe and not lengths?

a 50m roll of 15mm is about 55 quid, and 22mm X 50m is about £104


A bit pricy, TS are about 20% cheaper than that.

David WE Roberts wrote:
One of the plumbers quoting for our refurb has suggested retaining the
existing copper because of the high price of copper pipe ATM.
I am considering this, but suspect that the current central heating
may not be laid out in the best possible manner and the hot/cold
water system is not good because of long pipe runs and cold water
pipes touching hot water pipes so we get hot out of the cold taps for
a bit.
So ideally I would like to replace it all and start from scratch.

Which brings me to several options, as usual.

(1) Do it all in plastic and swing in the old copper for scrap to
offset a bit of the cost.
(2) Do it all in new copper and swing in the old copper for scrap to
offset a bit of the cost.
(3) Mix old and new copper in an unknown (ATM) ratio.
(4) Mix old copper and new plastic in an unknown (ATM) ratio.

So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered
the push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he
suggested a magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100%
informed). Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not to
use
plastic? Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Secondly, and more importantly, how much copper pipe would be needed
to replumb your average 3 bedroom semi?
[Psychics to supply own chrystal balls.]
Screwfix is showing 30m of 15mm pipe (3m * 10) at £77.90 so 60m of
15mm would be £160 which isn't a great deal compared with labour and
the cost of new radiators.
Waving a tape measure about I would think that 90m of 15mm and 30m of
20mm might do most of it but I could be way out.
That would be (£80 * 3) + £150 = £390 so it is starting to add up.
[Then again we had some dodgy copper in our last house which pinholed
out so there is an argument for all new.]

30mm of 15mm flotex plastic is £24.50 and 30m of 22mm flotex £46.90 so
plastic pipe is about 1/3 of copper pipe but you then have to pay for
the fittings which are a lot more expensive than capilliary copper.
Then again push fit is a lot quicker than even the fastes plumber
soldering so there is a potential saving on labour costs.

So - what does the team think?

TIA

Dave R

Here is an email from todays customer (an old email but I have known him a
while)

"Without any authority I think the first waste pipes may have been made by a
Dutch firm called Wavin who were owned by Shell (who supplied the
polypropylene, and later ABS powder). Wavin set up a factory in Wiltshire
and sold waste products under the Osma trademark, and still do.

This was followed by PVC rainwater gutter and fittings, at which point Kevin
McDonald set up Bartol Plastics in Edlington in competition, later bought
out by the Hepworth Iron Company of Hazlehead, makers of clay pipes.
McDonald then left, set up McDee Plastics making skateboards etc, and then
created Polypipe, in direct competition with Bartol, Wavin, Hunter, Paragon,
and others.

Polybutylene pipe for drinking water was introduced by Bartol Plastics
around 1982 under the tradename Acorn, to complement the fittings introduced
in c1979; Acorn later was renamed Hep2o.

Hepworth Building Products was bought out by Wavin in 2005, just as I left."


My customer's (and he is now a friend not a customer) 1983 to 1984 Acorn
fittings are still in working order. And that includes all the underground
stuff used to water the garden.


I was happy to use plastic pipe for my CH install.


--
Adam

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered
the push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he
suggested a magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100%
informed). Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice not
to use plastic? Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Unless you intend DIYing it, accept what your pro wants to do. Telling
him
he must use *your* choice of materials is an excellent 'get out' clause
for him if anything goes wrong.

If you want to have plastic used, find another plumber who prefers this.


Plumber has said he will do plastic if we want.
More interested in views as to the long term viability of plastic, and if
plastic push fit vs. compression joint.

I have plastic and copper in my CH and in my mains water systems.
Its only been in there for 30 years so I can't vouch for its reliability.

I have had both copper fittings and copper pipe fail in my fathers house
but they were about 40 years old.
The copper pipe just developed a pin hole in the middle of a length for no
apparent reason, soon fixed by putting a new bit in with plastic push fit
fittings.


Pin holing normally due to sub-standard pipe.
IIRC around the '60s there was a copper shortage and corners were cut in
manufacture.
We had to replace some a few years back.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 09/06/2012 19:28, David WE Roberts wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
So - firstly said plumber didn't favour plastic because he considered
the push fit joints liable to fail after 10 years (but again he
suggested a magnetic water scale molecule straightener so not 100%
informed). Any good reaon apart from plumber traditional predjudice
not
to use plastic? Plastic pipe and compression joints?

Unless you intend DIYing it, accept what your pro wants to do.
Telling him
he must use *your* choice of materials is an excellent 'get out' clause
for him if anything goes wrong.

If you want to have plastic used, find another plumber who prefers
this.


Plumber has said he will do plastic if we want.
More interested in views as to the long term viability of plastic,
and if plastic push fit vs. compression joint.

I have plastic and copper in my CH and in my mains water systems.
Its only been in there for 30 years so I can't vouch for its reliability.

I have had both copper fittings and copper pipe fail in my fathers
house but they were about 40 years old.
The copper pipe just developed a pin hole in the middle of a length
for no apparent reason, soon fixed by putting a new bit in with
plastic push fit fittings.


Pin holing normally due to sub-standard pipe.
IIRC around the '60s there was a copper shortage and corners were cut in
manufacture.
We had to replace some a few years back.


Be aware that if you have existing copper tube notched in the top of
joists under the floorboards, replacing this all in plastic could be
tricky as if there are any Tees close to a joist, you would need to cut
the notches deeper to accommodate the bulkier plastic Tees without
fouling the flooring planks. You may end up notching more than 1/8 of
the depth of the joist which will weaken the joists.

If you do decide to run new routes through the centreline of the joists
these must be done within 1/4 and 3/4 of the lengths of the joists spans
and no closer than 100mm to an existing notch or hole (unused or not)

Also bleeding them of air or draining them properly may be problematic
if you do not keep the tube and fittings on the same level.

When I redid my heating, it was previously in copper and all in 15mm and
as a single heating zone, I chose to use new copper.

I reused the existing notches, deepened to 22mm and as 2 heating zones
(up and down) I thus avoiding accidentally weakening my joists.

Regards

Stephen.

On 09/06/2012 17:42, mike wrote:
On Jun 9, 11:28 am, "David WE wrote:

So - what does the team think?

Avoid Floplast joints.

+1

I used these once and ended up having to replace them weeks later
because they were all weeping. Screwfix refunded me (+£50 voucher)
and took it up with the manufacturer. There had been previous known
problems which were supposedly cured. The £50 didn't make up for the
hassle of removing kitchen units.

Never had the few I used leak, but they were a bugger to use, requiring
considerable force to get the pipe to seat home correctly.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
.. .
On 09/06/2012 17:42, mike wrote:
On Jun 9, 11:28 am, "David WE wrote:

So - what does the team think?

Avoid Floplast joints.

+1

I used these once and ended up having to replace them weeks later
because they were all weeping. Screwfix refunded me (+£50 voucher)
and took it up with the manufacturer. There had been previous known
problems which were supposedly cured. The £50 didn't make up for the
hassle of removing kitchen units.

Never had the few I used leak, but they were a bugger to use, requiring
considerable force to get the pipe to seat home correctly.


Are Floplast those nasty ones with the metal teeth so if you do a trial fit
you can't get the buggers apart again?
Got some of those by mistake, tried one and decided never again.
I need to go and check my stash to see which ones I've used before - the
ones which have a sliding out bit to lock them in place.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
.. .
On 09/06/2012 17:42, mike wrote:
On Jun 9, 11:28 am, "David WE wrote:

So - what does the team think?

Avoid Floplast joints.

+1

I used these once and ended up having to replace them weeks later
because they were all weeping. Screwfix refunded me (+£50 voucher)
and took it up with the manufacturer. There had been previous known
problems which were supposedly cured. The £50 didn't make up for the
hassle of removing kitchen units.

Never had the few I used leak, but they were a bugger to use, requiring
considerable force to get the pipe to seat home correctly.


Are Floplast those nasty ones with the metal teeth so if you do a trial
fit you can't get the buggers apart again?
Got some of those by mistake, tried one and decided never again.
I need to go and check my stash to see which ones I've used before - the
ones which have a sliding out bit to lock them in place.

Ah - JG Speedfit.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 10/06/2012 09:25, David WE Roberts wrote:

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
.. .
On 09/06/2012 17:42, mike wrote:
On Jun 9, 11:28 am, "David WE wrote:

So - what does the team think?

Avoid Floplast joints.

+1

I used these once and ended up having to replace them weeks later
because they were all weeping. Screwfix refunded me (+£50 voucher)
and took it up with the manufacturer. There had been previous known
problems which were supposedly cured. The £50 didn't make up for the
hassle of removing kitchen units.

Never had the few I used leak, but they were a bugger to use,
requiring considerable force to get the pipe to seat home correctly.


Are Floplast those nasty ones with the metal teeth so if you do a
trial fit you can't get the buggers apart again?
Got some of those by mistake, tried one and decided never again.
I need to go and check my stash to see which ones I've used before -
the ones which have a sliding out bit to lock them in place.

Ah - JG Speedfit.

They all have metal teeth AFAIAA... most can also be demounted though.
Some need a tool to do it. The original speedfit design you just
unscrew the end until it hits the "stop" and then unscrew it some more!
It then comes apart.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/