Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

Is the intention though, to try to make them work with less input power?
The critical thing with a kettle is how long it will take to boil if full.
If its fast, then one can imply its efficient, but if its slow it might be
no better than a higher wattage one is, or indeed worse of course. I suspect
the marketing peeps will subtly make kettles lower capacity to disguise the
fact that its not more efficient.



What about immersion heaters though? These seem to be not very good. they
scale up distort etc, and hence lose any efficiency they had.
the best design should be based on some kind of flow inside the tank, so we
could soon find that we have to buy a tank with integral efficient heater?
Certainly, any element which is efficient could not fit through the usual
hole!
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

On 13/09/2014 12:34, Brian Gaff wrote:

What about immersion heaters though? These seem to be not very good. they
scale up distort etc, and hence lose any efficiency they had.
the best design should be based on some kind of flow inside the tank, so we
could soon find that we have to buy a tank with integral efficient heater?

But every watt converted to heat does end up either in the water or
coming out of the external end of the immersion heater. Even if the
heater has to cycle itself for days to get all the water heated to the
required temperature! The only improvement in actual efficiency that I
can see is to make sure that the sticking-out bit is well insulated from
the rest of the immersion heater and the cylinder.

--
Rod

On Sat, 13 Sep 2014 12:34:55 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Is the intention though, to try to make them work with less input power?
The critical thing with a kettle is how long it will take to boil if full.
If its fast, then one can imply its efficient, but if its slow it might be
no better than a higher wattage one is, or indeed worse of course. I suspect
the marketing peeps will subtly make kettles lower capacity to disguise the
fact that its not more efficient.

That's a type usually sold as a "Travel Kettle" :-)

What about immersion heaters though? These seem to be not very good. they
scale up distort etc, and hence lose any efficiency they had.
the best design should be based on some kind of flow inside the tank, so we
could soon find that we have to buy a tank with integral efficient heater?
Certainly, any element which is efficient could not fit through the usual
hole!

In this case, it really makes extremely little difference to the
immersion element's _efficiency_ (or, for that matter, efficacy). For
a start, they use a much lower wattage per inch loading than the
typical 1.5 /1.7 KW rated kettles since they have the luxury of being
able to use a much longer length of element.

Even when scale builds up on an immersion element, all that happens
is the element temperature increases until it reaches a new balance of
thermal flow across the extra thermal resistance of the limescale
'barrier'.

I haven't seen any figures for typical limescale thermal resistance
but I suspect it may only require an extra 10 or 20 degrees C increase
in element temperature to balance the heat flow compared to its
original performance when new.

The fractional temperature rise may cause a rise in resistance of the
element reducing the power consumption by a small fraction, leading to
a slightly longer heating time but, apart from that, the heating
efficiency will remain unaltered (a 20 deg rise in element temp is
unlikely to translate to a rise of more than 1 or 2 deg at the
immersion element head).
--
J B Good

On 13/09/2014 03:07, sm_jamieson wrote:
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

It does suggest another motive re kettles. Perhaps the generating
companies would a more even load?

On 13/09/14 13:01, Fredxxx wrote:
On 13/09/2014 03:07, sm_jamieson wrote:
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html


Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

It does suggest another motive re kettles. Perhaps the generating
companies would a more even load?

20 million kettles is an even load.

They wont all be on at once. If they did it would trip the grid completely!

In fact if you want to do that thing, have a 'kettle action day' and all
switch on everything in the house at a given time..



Now when an electric train starts up....that's another matter.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 13/09/14 13:01, Fredxxx wrote:
On 13/09/2014 03:07, sm_jamieson wrote:
Another article on EU appliance power regulation


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...1538/EU-to-ban
-high-energy-hair-dryers-smartphones-and-kettles.html


Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

It does suggest another motive re kettles. Perhaps the generating
companies would a more even load?

20 million kettles is an even load.

They wont all be on at once. If they did it would trip the grid completely!

As has been discussed before, all other things being the same, supplying
a lower power to a kettle will make it take a disproportionately long
time to boil (because of heat losses). A low power kettle would have to
have its insulation beefed up to prevent this problem).

Using the principle of 'reductio ad absurdum' (*see below), it seems to
me that if kettles boil very quickly, the chances of having a great
number of kettles on at the same time are pretty low. On the other hand,
if they take a long time to boil, the chances of having them on at the
same time are greater.
*Imagine if kettles boiled instantly. It's highly unlikely that large
numbers are going to be switched on at exactly the same instant.

In fact if you want to do that thing, have a 'kettle action day' and
all switch on everything in the house at a given time..

Now when an electric train starts up....that's another matter.





--
Ian

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient.
The trick is to beef up the insulation and in the case of kettles for
instance, make sure no more water is heated than needed.
A jug thing is the best, you can heat just a cupful of water.

On 13/09/2014 19:16, harryagain
wrote:
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient.
The trick is to beef up the insulation and in the case of kettles for
instance, make sure no more water is heated than needed.
A jug thing is the best, you can heat just a cupful of water.


You're almost completely right.

To quote Scotty "Ye cannae change the laws of physics"

If all else is equal, it takes less energy to bring to the boil a given
quantity of water the faster you do it. This makes a 50 kilowatt
electric kettle more energy efficient than a 1 kilowatt kettle.
(Ignoring external losses in the wiring) A better insulated 50 kW kettle
is more energy efficient than an otherwise identical 1 kW kettle.

This applies no matter how much water is in the kettle, and no matter
how well it's insulated, as long as that insulation isn't 100% perfect.

But, if you have a kettle as well insulated as a Thermos flask, it makes
very little difference to the total energy used, so you could, in
theory, have a 60 watt kettle with perfect insulation if you had enough
spare time to let it heat the water. Think about a very well insulated
slow cooker. It has a 60 watt element, which doesn't run all the time,
but keeps the food inside it just below boiling point using a fraction
of the power and energy of a normal hotplate doing the same.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2014 19:16:51 +0100, harryagain wrote:

A jug thing is the best, you can heat just a cupful of water.

You can but try telling SWMBO'd that. We did have a kettle that had a
minimum level of under 500 ml, but if she ever filled the kettle for
just a single mug of brew it was filled to at least the litre mark.
Once she'd made her brew she'd top it up and reboil "ready for the
next one" (in two or thre hours...).

--
Cheers
Dave.

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient.
The trick is to beef up the insulation and in the case of kettles for
instance, make sure no more water is heated than needed.
A jug thing is the best, you can heat just a cupful of water.

A microwave is even better because there is no wasted water at all.

In article ,
"Rod Speed" writes:


"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient.
The trick is to beef up the insulation and in the case of kettles for
instance, make sure no more water is heated than needed.
A jug thing is the best, you can heat just a cupful of water.

A microwave is even better because there is no wasted water at all.

Just wasted energy, as they aren't as efficient.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Rod Speed" writes:


"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient.
The trick is to beef up the insulation and in the case of kettles for
instance, make sure no more water is heated than needed.
A jug thing is the best, you can heat just a cupful of water.

A microwave is even better because there is no wasted water at all.

Just wasted energy, as they aren't as efficient.

But they are much more efficient in the sense of
not heating any more water than you actually use.

On Sun, 14 Sep 2014 08:30:16 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Rod Speed" writes:


"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
Another article on EU appliance power regulation

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-kettles.html

Kettles are on the list. However they are going to run tests on the
possible savings. The fact that kettles are even on the list shows the
level of education of some of these people !

Surely they should regulate efficiency, not wattage ?

Simon.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient.
The trick is to beef up the insulation and in the case of kettles for
instance, make sure no more water is heated than needed.
A jug thing is the best, you can heat just a cupful of water.

A microwave is even better because there is no wasted water at all.

Just wasted energy, as they aren't as efficient.

But they are much more efficient in the sense of
not heating any more water than you actually use.

Assuming it's for a beverage you can 'brew in the cup', the choice is
more a case of "Damned if you do, dmaned if you don't."

You either heat up twice as much water as required with 100%
efficiency or else heat the exact amount at around the 50 to 60%
electrical to microwave radiation conversion efficiency, typical of
most MW ovens.

For a single cup/mug of hot beverage, the microwave is as good a
choice as using a kettle. I reckon that when it comes to preparing
more than a single mug's worth of hot beverage at a time, the kettle
will have the edge, especially when brewing tea in a teapot rather
than pouring the water onto a teabag in each mug or cup (or, for those
of a cheaper disposition, teabagging the two mugs of hot water with a
single teabag on a string).
--
J B Good