I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

Namely replacing the bath in my mum's can't swing a cat in it bathroom
with a shower at minimal disruption. I have tried to find a plumber to
do the job but they all take one look, make sensible suggestions and
promise to send me an estimate but then run away crossing themselves.

There is one serious problem I can see which is undoing the bath tap in
the blind corner furthest away from the access. Secondly I would like to
reinstate the bath taps on a piece of Perspex so that they are still
available when the job is finished. How thick does it need to be?

Are there any other gotchas to consider when removing a bath that I
ought to be aware of before I start?

It is a mid-70's acrylic bath with GF reinforcement. It obviously fitted
into the bathroom somehow so I am hoping it will exit too.

I plan to do it in stages which are roughly:

1. Remove bath and reinstate taps on acrylic board.
2. Make good exposed rough walls and tile.
3. Build raised base for shower tray.
4. Install shower tray.
5. Install shower screen & door

Alternatively can anyone recommend a reliable plumber in the Manchester
area who is up for a challenge?

The bathroom really is very tight even for a 700mm wide shower tray.

Thanks for any tips or suggestions as to the best way to procede.

Incidentally how well behaved are the newer low profile shower trays? Do
they really need to be in a wet room environment?

(it would be a big advantage to my mum if the threshold was lower)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 11/09/2014 12:07, Martin Brown wrote:

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

Namely replacing the bath in my mum's can't swing a cat in it bathroom
with a shower at minimal disruption. I have tried to find a plumber to
do the job but they all take one look, make sensible suggestions and
promise to send me an estimate but then run away crossing themselves.

There is one serious problem I can see which is undoing the bath tap in
the blind corner furthest away from the access. Secondly I would like to
reinstate the bath taps on a piece of Perspex so that they are still
available when the job is finished. How thick does it need to be?


The issue is not so much the thickness as the method used to brace it to
provide a suitably rigid "shelf" (assuming they are fitted on the rim of
the current bath). Another option might be to use taps fitting on a
vertical surface. If you have a stud wall they could be fitted flush
(I'd suggest Mermaid or similar wall panels); if a solid wall, you will
need to make a "box" but that might create a shelf suitable for soap,
shampoo, etc.

Low profile shower trays are no problem all the ones I have seen come with a wide outlet which more than copes with the most deluging of showers. Why you want to retain the bath taps is a puzzle as all I can see is that they will be a source of irritation and look unsightly. One thing you need to do when installing the tray is to bed it down on a dry mix of mortar so that it is fully supported.

Richard

On 11/09/2014 14:42, newshound wrote:
On 11/09/2014 12:07, Martin Brown wrote:

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

Namely replacing the bath in my mum's can't swing a cat in it bathroom
with a shower at minimal disruption. I have tried to find a plumber to
do the job but they all take one look, make sensible suggestions and
promise to send me an estimate but then run away crossing themselves.

There is one serious problem I can see which is undoing the bath tap in
the blind corner furthest away from the access. Secondly I would like to
reinstate the bath taps on a piece of Perspex so that they are still
available when the job is finished. How thick does it need to be?


The issue is not so much the thickness as the method used to brace it to
provide a suitably rigid "shelf" (assuming they are fitted on the rim of
the current bath).

Yes they are and I need to step out the wall at about that height to
make space for other hidden pipe runs that would be murder to move.
(the plumbers that ran away from this job had spotted this - I hadn't)

Another option might be to use taps fitting on a
vertical surface. If you have a stud wall they could be fitted flush
(I'd suggest Mermaid or similar wall panels); if a solid wall, you will
need to make a "box" but that might create a shelf suitable for soap,
shampoo, etc.

It is against solid brick external cavity wall on two sides.

That was my intention to step it out by about 10cm on a very solid frame
but I am not sure what thickness of Perspex I will need and I'd really
like to do the take out the bath and put back the step shelf to support
the taps again in one go since the water will have to be off for the
duration. Be a pain to find the piece I have made won't fit!

I am guessing that the bath is probably only ~6mm thick at that point
but it is only a guess. It could be academic if I can't get one of the
taps off (which seems to me a distinct possibility).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article , Martin Brown
writes

I am guessing that the bath is probably only ~6mm thick at that point
but it is only a guess. It could be academic if I can't get one of the
taps off (which seems to me a distinct possibility).

Must admit to not fully understanding what you are up to but this bit is
easy. Do not attempt to remove the taps from the bath in situ, turn the
water off and cut through the pipes in whatever way is easiest (electric
saw at full reach if necessary), rip out the bath, tidy and cap the pipe
ends and then remove the taps from the now freestanding bath.

Don't get the perspex plan, it's nasty floppy stuff, 10mm to make a
rigid freestanding item or 6mm bonded to something rigid like ply would
be my guess.

--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On 11/09/2014 12:07, Martin Brown wrote:

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

Namely replacing the bath in my mum's can't swing a cat in it bathroom
with a shower at minimal disruption. I have tried to find a plumber to
do the job but they all take one look, make sensible suggestions and
promise to send me an estimate but then run away crossing themselves.

There is one serious problem I can see which is undoing the bath tap in
the blind corner furthest away from the access. Secondly I would like to
reinstate the bath taps on a piece of Perspex so that they are still
available when the job is finished. How thick does it need to be?

Are there any other gotchas to consider when removing a bath that I
ought to be aware of before I start?

It is a mid-70's acrylic bath with GF reinforcement. It obviously fitted
into the bathroom somehow so I am hoping it will exit too.

I plan to do it in stages which are roughly:

1. Remove bath and reinstate taps on acrylic board.
2. Make good exposed rough walls and tile.
3. Build raised base for shower tray.
4. Install shower tray.
5. Install shower screen & door

Alternatively can anyone recommend a reliable plumber in the Manchester
area who is up for a challenge?

The bathroom really is very tight even for a 700mm wide shower tray.

Thanks for any tips or suggestions as to the best way to procede.

Incidentally how well behaved are the newer low profile shower trays? Do
they really need to be in a wet room environment?

(it would be a big advantage to my mum if the threshold was lower)


Like several others, I don't understand about keeping the bath taps. Are
they going to be there simply as a "feature" without being operational -
or will they be piped up for water to come out of them? If the latter,
what will be under them to catch the water and drain it away?

As far as removing the bath and taps is concerned, someone has already
suggested cutting through the pipes so that you can then remove the taps
from the bath once it is away from the wall. I was going to suggest the
same. As an alternative, is it fair to assume that the bath will be
scrap. If so, why not cut it up in situ? It will be much easier to
remove in pieces if access is tight, and you'll also be able to get at
the taps with part of the bath removed.

You don't mention what type of shower you will be installing. Will it be
an electric shower which heats the water from cold? If so you will need
a dedicated high capacity electrical supply for it. Or will it use
stored hot water, with a mixing valve to blend hot and cold? If so, hot
and cold need to be at the same pressure - both taken from the header
tank unless it's a pressurised hot water system. If fed only by gravity,
will there be sufficient flow, or will you need a booster pump?

Finally, are you satisfied that you will be able to connect the shower
waste to whatever the bath waste currently connects to - without any
joists in the way?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 11/09/2014 19:59, fred wrote:
In article , Martin Brown
writes

I am guessing that the bath is probably only ~6mm thick at that point
but it is only a guess. It could be academic if I can't get one of the
taps off (which seems to me a distinct possibility).

Must admit to not fully understanding what you are up to but this bit is
easy. Do not attempt to remove the taps from the bath in situ, turn the
water off and cut through the pipes in whatever way is easiest (electric
saw at full reach if necessary), rip out the bath, tidy and cap the pipe
ends and then remove the taps from the now freestanding bath.

Don't get the perspex plan, it's nasty floppy stuff, 10mm to make a
rigid freestanding item or 6mm bonded to something rigid like ply would
be my guess.

I agree with Fred, perspex would not necessarily by my choice but if
well supported as you describe then 6 mm would probably be OK (but
beware of cracks if the taps are stiff).

In my experience it is seldom worth "economising" by re-using taps which
are a few years old, unless you are sure they are top quality ones.
Also, don't mess about trying to position the taps so that they fit the
existing pipes. Cut the pipes short, fit the taps, connect taps up to
new, over-long pipework, then cut and join new pipe to old, using
compression fittings if space is tight, finally box in. Make the pipe
access cover removable (accessible screws, not nails) even if you seal
with silicone. And add service valves (in fact you could use the service
valve to join the existing pipe to the new).

On 11/09/2014 12:07, Martin Brown wrote:

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

Namely replacing the bath in my mum's can't swing a cat in it bathroom
with a shower at minimal disruption. I have tried to find a plumber to
do the job but they all take one look, make sensible suggestions and
promise to send me an estimate but then run away crossing themselves.

There is one serious problem I can see which is undoing the bath tap in
the blind corner furthest away from the access. Secondly I would like to
reinstate the bath taps on a piece of Perspex so that they are still
available when the job is finished. How thick does it need to be?


Not sure what the reason for keeping the tap, but would a shower panel
with a built in bath filler be better?

For example...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201000420957


--
Toby...
Remove your pants to reply

On 11/09/2014 20:54, Roger Mills wrote:
On 11/09/2014 12:07, Martin Brown wrote:

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

[snip]
Thanks for any tips or suggestions as to the best way to procede.

Incidentally how well behaved are the newer low profile shower trays? Do
they really need to be in a wet room environment?

(it would be a big advantage to my mum if the threshold was lower)


Like several others, I don't understand about keeping the bath taps. Are
they going to be there simply as a "feature" without being operational -
or will they be piped up for water to come out of them? If the latter,
what will be under them to catch the water and drain it away?

The shower tray. Their purpose is for filling buckets of water.

I could be persuaded to just cap them if it made my life easier.

As far as removing the bath and taps is concerned, someone has already
suggested cutting through the pipes so that you can then remove the taps
from the bath once it is away from the wall. I was going to suggest the
same. As an alternative, is it fair to assume that the bath will be
scrap. If so, why not cut it up in situ? It will be much easier to
remove in pieces if access is tight, and you'll also be able to get at
the taps with part of the bath removed.

Thanks. It might well come to that. ISTR that was how the previous cast
iron one was removed when this bath was installed in the 1970's.

You don't mention what type of shower you will be installing. Will it be
an electric shower which heats the water from cold? If so you will need
a dedicated high capacity electrical supply for it. Or will it use
stored hot water, with a mixing valve to blend hot and cold? If so, hot
and cold need to be at the same pressure - both taken from the header
tank unless it's a pressurised hot water system. If fed only by gravity,
will there be sufficient flow, or will you need a booster pump?

There is already a Mira shower thermostatic gravity fed mixer that sits
over the bath. The problem is that my mum had a fall and broke her
pelvis and now lacks the mobility needed to get into the bath at all. It
is at present wasted space (although we use it when staying there).

A real shower cubicle is now essential. I think she could probably
manage a conventional shower tray but a low profile one would be better.
I was wary of them flooding as there doesn't seem to be much of a lip.
The other thing is any recommendations for models 700x1000 or 700x900
with good antislip provision on the base by design and also for the wall
mounted perching stools that fold up when not in use.

I wasn't planning on changing the shower mixer or delivery head. They
are already there, plumbed in and working. The object is to swap a bath
shell for a low profile shower tray and enclosure. I can see how to do
the enclosure but I really hate fiddly plumbing underneath things.

BTW how do you get a decent water seal on these big shower drain traps?

Finally, are you satisfied that you will be able to connect the shower
waste to whatever the bath waste currently connects to - without any
joists in the way?

Fairly sure - it is up against an outside wall with about 12" of pipe.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

Namely replacing the bath in my mum's can't swing a cat in it bathroom
with a shower at minimal disruption. I have tried to find a plumber to
do the job but they all take one look, make sensible suggestions and
promise to send me an estimate but then run away crossing themselves.

There is one serious problem I can see which is undoing the bath tap in
the blind corner furthest away from the access. Secondly I would like to
reinstate the bath taps on a piece of Perspex so that they are still
available when the job is finished. How thick does it need to be?

Are there any other gotchas to consider when removing a bath that I
ought to be aware of before I start?

It is a mid-70's acrylic bath with GF reinforcement. It obviously fitted
into the bathroom somehow so I am hoping it will exit too.

I plan to do it in stages which are roughly:

1. Remove bath and reinstate taps on acrylic board.
2. Make good exposed rough walls and tile.
3. Build raised base for shower tray.
4. Install shower tray.
5. Install shower screen & door

Alternatively can anyone recommend a reliable plumber in the Manchester
area who is up for a challenge?

The bathroom really is very tight even for a 700mm wide shower tray.

Thanks for any tips or suggestions as to the best way to procede.

Incidentally how well behaved are the newer low profile shower trays? Do
they really need to be in a wet room environment?

(it would be a big advantage to my mum if the threshold was lower)


I cut my bath up into pieces with an electric jigsaw. That way, I could
also get it into the wheelie bin a bit at a time.

Under my bath the cheapskate builders only put in the full floorboards whe
the feet of the bath went. I found this out when I needed to fit a new bath
with the feet in different places!

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

Namely replacing the bath in my mum's can't swing a cat in it bathroom
with a shower at minimal disruption. I have tried to find a plumber to do
the job but they all take one look, make sensible suggestions and promise
to send me an estimate but then run away crossing themselves.

There is one serious problem I can see which is undoing the bath tap in
the blind corner furthest away from the access. Secondly I would like to
reinstate the bath taps on a piece of Perspex so that they are still
available when the job is finished. How thick does it need to be?

Are there any other gotchas to consider when removing a bath that I ought
to be aware of before I start?

It is a mid-70's acrylic bath with GF reinforcement. It obviously fitted
into the bathroom somehow so I am hoping it will exit too.

I plan to do it in stages which are roughly:

1. Remove bath and reinstate taps on acrylic board.
2. Make good exposed rough walls and tile.
3. Build raised base for shower tray.
4. Install shower tray.
5. Install shower screen & door

Alternatively can anyone recommend a reliable plumber in the Manchester
area who is up for a challenge?

The bathroom really is very tight even for a 700mm wide shower tray.

Thanks for any tips or suggestions as to the best way to procede.

Incidentally how well behaved are the newer low profile shower trays? Do
they really need to be in a wet room environment?

(it would be a big advantage to my mum if the threshold was lower)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 11/09/2014 21:06, newshound wrote:
On 11/09/2014 19:59, fred wrote:
In article , Martin Brown
writes

I am guessing that the bath is probably only ~6mm thick at that point
but it is only a guess. It could be academic if I can't get one of the
taps off (which seems to me a distinct possibility).

Must admit to not fully understanding what you are up to but this bit is
easy. Do not attempt to remove the taps from the bath in situ, turn the
water off and cut through the pipes in whatever way is easiest (electric
saw at full reach if necessary), rip out the bath, tidy and cap the pipe
ends and then remove the taps from the now freestanding bath.

The cold tap is useful for other purposes where it is.

Don't get the perspex plan, it's nasty floppy stuff, 10mm to make a
rigid freestanding item or 6mm bonded to something rigid like ply would
be my guess.

I agree with Fred, perspex would not necessarily by my choice but if
well supported as you describe then 6 mm would probably be OK (but
beware of cracks if the taps are stiff).

I open to suggestions for a better engineering plastic. The old bath was
acrylic but of unknown thickness at that point.

In my experience it is seldom worth "economising" by re-using taps which
are a few years old, unless you are sure they are top quality ones.

I'm not although they might well be to have lasted so long. The thing I
worry about is disturbing an old installation risks other failures...

Also, don't mess about trying to position the taps so that they fit the
existing pipes. Cut the pipes short, fit the taps, connect taps up to
new, over-long pipework, then cut and join new pipe to old, using
compression fittings if space is tight, finally box in. Make the pipe
access cover removable (accessible screws, not nails) even if you seal
with silicone. And add service valves (in fact you could use the service
valve to join the existing pipe to the new).

I am afraid I was planning to just mess about putting them back onto a
board where they were originally located. It this approach inherently
doomed to fail? TBH I think I stand a much better chance of undoing the
holding nuts on the back of the tap assembly with a suitable plumber
spanner than I do of cutting through the virtually inaccessible pipe.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 12/09/2014 09:36, Martin Brown wrote:
On 11/09/2014 20:54, Roger Mills wrote:
On 11/09/2014 12:07, Martin Brown wrote:

I have been landed with a tricky and awkward DIY job & I hate plumbing!

[snip]
Thanks for any tips or suggestions as to the best way to procede.

Incidentally how well behaved are the newer low profile shower trays? Do
they really need to be in a wet room environment?

(it would be a big advantage to my mum if the threshold was lower)


Like several others, I don't understand about keeping the bath taps. Are
they going to be there simply as a "feature" without being operational -
or will they be piped up for water to come out of them? If the latter,
what will be under them to catch the water and drain it away?

Ah good I was hoping someone would ask the questions that were forming
in my mind - well done Roger! ;-)

The shower tray. Their purpose is for filling buckets of water.

I could be persuaded to just cap them if it made my life easier.

Well it seems like you are over complicating things - not to mention
making for something which if it ends up in the shower enclosure is
going to be a hazard - either walking into it, being extra stuff to
clean etc, not to mention looking odd. Is there a routine need to fill
buckets inside the house? Would an outside tap do? If there is no
outside tap could one of the existing pipes be rerouted to provide one etc?

As far as removing the bath and taps is concerned, someone has already
suggested cutting through the pipes so that you can then remove the taps
from the bath once it is away from the wall. I was going to suggest the
same. As an alternative, is it fair to assume that the bath will be
scrap. If so, why not cut it up in situ? It will be much easier to
remove in pieces if access is tight, and you'll also be able to get at
the taps with part of the bath removed.

Thanks. It might well come to that. ISTR that was how the previous cast
iron one was removed when this bath was installed in the 1970's.

As it happens I have recent experience playing just this game - ageing
aunt had a fall and ended up in hospital, and needed a more suitable
bathroom to return to. Similar sounding storey - very narrow room
(1100mm in this case) old cast iron bath, loo, sink, cupboards
containing hot water cylinder etc all crammed in.

You don't mention what type of shower you will be installing. Will it be
an electric shower which heats the water from cold? If so you will need
a dedicated high capacity electrical supply for it. Or will it use
stored hot water, with a mixing valve to blend hot and cold? If so, hot
and cold need to be at the same pressure - both taken from the header
tank unless it's a pressurised hot water system. If fed only by gravity,
will there be sufficient flow, or will you need a booster pump?

There is already a Mira shower thermostatic gravity fed mixer that sits
over the bath. The problem is that my mum had a fall and broke her
pelvis and now lacks the mobility needed to get into the bath at all. It
is at present wasted space (although we use it when staying there).

A real shower cubicle is now essential. I think she could probably
manage a conventional shower tray but a low profile one would be better.
I was wary of them flooding as there doesn't seem to be much of a lip.

I would not worry about that - remember the shower screen provides a bit
of extra lip (unless just using a curtain), and also the low profile
trays have a high flow rate waste.

The one I used was rated for 32L/min:

https://www.plumbworld.co.uk/hydrolu...g-door-0-21466

The tray itself also had a reasonable slope built into it.

Once fitted it looks like:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...yAndScreen.jpg

(excuse the crap photo)

The other thing is any recommendations for models 700x1000 or 700x900
with good antislip provision on the base by design and also for the wall
mounted perching stools that fold up when not in use.

In the end I concluded that if you need a decent anti slip, you are
better adding it as an extra mat - since the trays with "bobbled"
bottoms are not particularly comfortable to stand in and not as easy to
clean.

Regarding fold up stools etc, if you have an outside wall to fix to,
these work very well:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004J9WLEQ

You can fix them at a range of heights (although discussing the matter
with the occupational therapist at the hospital, 18" is suggested)

I wasn't planning on changing the shower mixer or delivery head. They
are already there, plumbed in and working. The object is to swap a bath
shell for a low profile shower tray and enclosure. I can see how to do
the enclosure but I really hate fiddly plumbing underneath things.

The trick here is to prepare the waste connection before the tray goes
in - so cut away floor boards etc as required, use solvent weld 40mm
piping and get it so the trap is sat on the end of the pipe with a bit
of movement available before you start.

Mix up some mortar mix as a base for the shower (only needs to be thin
(say 10mm) if the floor is sound). Lay a couple of battens (or I
normally use a couple of lengths of 15mm plastic pipe) across the mortar
and plop the tray on the pipes. Get it into position and then pull the
pipes out to drop it on the bed. Check it with a level and tap it about
a bit until you are happy. Let the mortar go off before doing much more.

BTW how do you get a decent water seal on these big shower drain traps?

Easy, they have a wide flange with a flat rubber washer on the under
side, and then a plastic top with a wide flange on the top which screws
through the opening in the tray into the base part, trapping the tray
between. I normally give a liberal coating of silicone sealant to both
sides of the washer on the underside to that it will bond the bottom
part of the trap to the tray. Add a bead of Fernox LS-X to the underside
of the flange on the top part, and then screw it tightly into the base
(you will need to cut a small bit of ply or similar to engage with the
lugs on the inside of the top bit to turn it). That basically leaves a
"cup" connected to a 40mm waste pipe under the shower. There is then an
insert which just slots into the cup (can can be removed for cleaning),
and a chrome effect cover that goes over it. The insert is what
provides/retains the water trap.

Finally, are you satisfied that you will be able to connect the shower
waste to whatever the bath waste currently connects to - without any
joists in the way?

Fairly sure - it is up against an outside wall with about 12" of pipe.

I found that the original bath waste would have been slight too high
(and in my case was a lead pipe!), so drilled a new hole* and fed a new
waste out where I wanted it.

* 45mm diamond core bit in a drill

(if anyone is interested in a wiki page on doing that bathroom, let me
know and I can post some more photos)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/09/2014 09:36, Martin Brown wrote:
On 11/09/2014 20:54, Roger Mills wrote:


Like several others, I don't understand about keeping the bath taps. Are
they going to be there simply as a "feature" without being operational -
or will they be piped up for water to come out of them? If the latter,
what will be under them to catch the water and drain it away?

The shower tray. Their purpose is for filling buckets of water.

I could be persuaded to just cap them if it made my life easier.

As far as removing the bath and taps is concerned, someone has already
suggested cutting through the pipes so that you can then remove the taps
from the bath once it is away from the wall. I was going to suggest the
same. As an alternative, is it fair to assume that the bath will be
scrap. If so, why not cut it up in situ? It will be much easier to
remove in pieces if access is tight, and you'll also be able to get at
the taps with part of the bath removed.

Thanks. It might well come to that. ISTR that was how the previous cast
iron one was removed when this bath was installed in the 1970's.

You don't mention what type of shower you will be installing. Will it be
an electric shower which heats the water from cold? If so you will need
a dedicated high capacity electrical supply for it. Or will it use
stored hot water, with a mixing valve to blend hot and cold? If so, hot
and cold need to be at the same pressure - both taken from the header
tank unless it's a pressurised hot water system. If fed only by gravity,
will there be sufficient flow, or will you need a booster pump?

There is already a Mira shower thermostatic gravity fed mixer that sits
over the bath. The problem is that my mum had a fall and broke her
pelvis and now lacks the mobility needed to get into the bath at all. It
is at present wasted space (although we use it when staying there).

A real shower cubicle is now essential. I think she could probably
manage a conventional shower tray but a low profile one would be better.
I was wary of them flooding as there doesn't seem to be much of a lip.
The other thing is any recommendations for models 700x1000 or 700x900
with good antislip provision on the base by design and also for the wall
mounted perching stools that fold up when not in use.

I wasn't planning on changing the shower mixer or delivery head. They
are already there, plumbed in and working. The object is to swap a bath
shell for a low profile shower tray and enclosure. I can see how to do
the enclosure but I really hate fiddly plumbing underneath things.

BTW how do you get a decent water seal on these big shower drain traps?

Finally, are you satisfied that you will be able to connect the shower
waste to whatever the bath waste currently connects to - without any
joists in the way?

Fairly sure - it is up against an outside wall with about 12" of pipe.


OK, so I think I understand. The current location of the bath taps will
be inside the shower cubicle, and you want a way of supporting them - on
their existing pipework - for filling buckets, after the bath is
removed. The existing over-bath shower will also end up inside the
cubicle, and your mother will continue to use it as before - the only
difference being that she will be standing on the shower tray and not in
the bath. Is that all correct?

So you need a small horizontal shelf, with holes for the taps, in the
same position as the bit of the bath which currently supports the taps.
The question is what material to use. In your position, I think I would
be looking at a short length of 3" aluminium angle - long enough to
cater for both tap holes - with the vertical part screwed to the wall,
and the horizontal part supporting the taps. It would need painting, of
course.

When your mother is standing in the shower tray, she's going to be
several inches lower than when in the bath. Is she going to be able to
reach the shower controls? The shower head might also be at the wrong
height but, assuming that it moves up and down on a vertical column, you
should be able to mount the column lower down if necessary.

Are you sure that it's *pure* gravity? I have a similar setup, except
that there's a booster pump located under the bath. If your mother's is
like that, you'll need to find a new home for the pump, and you'll need
to re-jig the pipework.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 12/09/2014 13:57, Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/09/2014 09:36, Martin Brown wrote:

A real shower cubicle is now essential. I think she could probably
manage a conventional shower tray but a low profile one would be better.
I was wary of them flooding as there doesn't seem to be much of a lip.
The other thing is any recommendations for models 700x1000 or 700x900
with good antislip provision on the base by design and also for the wall
mounted perching stools that fold up when not in use.

I wasn't planning on changing the shower mixer or delivery head. They
are already there, plumbed in and working. The object is to swap a bath
shell for a low profile shower tray and enclosure. I can see how to do
the enclosure but I really hate fiddly plumbing underneath things.

BTW how do you get a decent water seal on these big shower drain traps?

Finally, are you satisfied that you will be able to connect the shower
waste to whatever the bath waste currently connects to - without any
joists in the way?

Fairly sure - it is up against an outside wall with about 12" of pipe.

OK, so I think I understand. The current location of the bath taps will
be inside the shower cubicle, and you want a way of supporting them - on
their existing pipework - for filling buckets, after the bath is
removed. The existing over-bath shower will also end up inside the
cubicle, and your mother will continue to use it as before - the only
difference being that she will be standing on the shower tray and not in
the bath. Is that all correct?

Apart from the fact that she can no longer get into the bath. Yes.
I am now thinking carefully about what John has said in an adjacent
response that the taps would themselves form a potential hazard.

So you need a small horizontal shelf, with holes for the taps, in the
same position as the bit of the bath which currently supports the taps.
The question is what material to use. In your position, I think I would
be looking at a short length of 3" aluminium angle - long enough to
cater for both tap holes - with the vertical part screwed to the wall,
and the horizontal part supporting the taps. It would need painting, of
course.

Useful suggestion. Thanks. I was thinking more of building up from the
floor with a wooden frame behind tiled waterproof board.

When your mother is standing in the shower tray, she's going to be
several inches lower than when in the bath. Is she going to be able to
reach the shower controls? The shower head might also be at the wrong
height but, assuming that it moves up and down on a vertical column, you
should be able to mount the column lower down if necessary.

To avoid having to move a lot of other pipework the shower is going to
have to be raised about 3" off the existing floor level. I was planning
on using 3x6 timber supports either side of the pipe run supporting 18mm
marine ply with the tray bedded into cement on top. The pipes for the
wash basin are along the central axis of the bath.

Are you sure that it's *pure* gravity? I have a similar setup, except
that there's a booster pump located under the bath. If your mother's is
like that, you'll need to find a new home for the pump, and you'll need
to re-jig the pipework.

I am fairly sure but I will check. I can trace the pipes back to the
loft with no signs of any pump. Thanks for your reply and also to John
for detailed advice on the drain which is my biggest scary bit.

Thanks to all for the various suggestions. I am still at the planning
stage but will have to choose a working solution and buy bits shortly.

I don't like plumbing - water can leak out all over the place.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:
A real shower cubicle is now essential. I think she could probably
manage a conventional shower tray but a low profile one would be better.

Is raising the bathroom floor outside the shower an option, so that
the shower tray is effectively recessed into the floor.

jgh

On 12/09/2014 16:34, Martin Brown wrote:

Thanks to all for the various suggestions. I am still at the planning
stage but will have to choose a working solution and buy bits shortly.

I don't like plumbing - water can leak out all over the place.

Well there is no shame in using pushfit fittings and plastic pipe if
that is what it takes...

Slap service valves in anywhere that is handy - even if ultimately you
don't expect to use them again - they can make doing the job with least
interruption to the water supply elsewhere easy.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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\================================================= ================/

On 12/09/2014 11:47, Martin Brown wrote:
On 11/09/2014 21:06, newshound wrote:

I agree with Fred, perspex would not necessarily by my choice but if
well supported as you describe then 6 mm would probably be OK (but
beware of cracks if the taps are stiff).

I open to suggestions for a better engineering plastic. The old bath was
acrylic but of unknown thickness at that point.

In my experience it is seldom worth "economising" by re-using taps which
are a few years old, unless you are sure they are top quality ones.

I'm not although they might well be to have lasted so long. The thing I
worry about is disturbing an old installation risks other failures...

Also, don't mess about trying to position the taps so that they fit the
existing pipes. Cut the pipes short, fit the taps, connect taps up to
new, over-long pipework, then cut and join new pipe to old, using
compression fittings if space is tight, finally box in. Make the pipe
access cover removable (accessible screws, not nails) even if you seal
with silicone. And add service valves (in fact you could use the service
valve to join the existing pipe to the new).

I am afraid I was planning to just mess about putting them back onto a
board where they were originally located. It this approach inherently
doomed to fail? TBH I think I stand a much better chance of undoing the
holding nuts on the back of the tap assembly with a suitable plumber
spanner than I do of cutting through the virtually inaccessible pipe.


I understand, the devil is in the detail. If the pipes are indeed
virtually inaccessible (e.g. being cast into concrete and/or flush
against brickwork) it might well be easier to adjust your new "shelf" to
be in exactly the same location as the edge of the edge of the bath. But
with one of the "ring" type cutters you can cut copper pipe which is
fairly close to a wall. When I first started doing plumbing, if I was
(say) replacing a basin I would try to set up the tap fittings starting
from the old pipework, and I could never get the positioning quite
right. But, if you fit a new tail to the tap, with suitable bends or
elbows to tuck the piping away neatly and then run that pile alongside
the original supply, you can then cut each pipe to the right length and
either solder in a straight coupler, or a compression fitting, or a
service valve and sort out any misalignment at that point. It might be
one extra fitting, but it's all about degrees of freedom. If you don't
do it that way, you are almost bound to be putting some strain on the
joints (either torsion, bending, or axial, or any combination).

On 12/09/2014 21:38, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/09/2014 16:34, Martin Brown wrote:

Thanks to all for the various suggestions. I am still at the planning
stage but will have to choose a working solution and buy bits shortly.

I don't like plumbing - water can leak out all over the place.

Well there is no shame in using pushfit fittings and plastic pipe if
that is what it takes...

Slap service valves in anywhere that is handy - even if ultimately you
don't expect to use them again - they can make doing the job with least
interruption to the water supply elsewhere easy.


Good advice (as always) from John. FWIW I use a lot of plastic pushfit
these days where access is awkward and the pipes are concealed; but I
have also learned by now how not to do it wrong!

On 12/09/2014 22:36, newshound wrote:


Good advice (as always) from John. FWIW I use a lot of plastic pushfit
these days where access is awkward and the pipes are concealed; but I
have also learned by now how not to do it wrong!

Now where's that man with the hacksaw? g
--
Cheers,
Roger
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checked.

On 12/09/2014 16:34, Martin Brown wrote:

I am now thinking carefully about what John has said in an adjacent
response that the taps would themselves form a potential hazard.


It's a valid point. If your mother were to stumble into them, she could
do herself some damage. If you *really* want taps there, maybe you could
box them in, with a hinged lid for when you need to use them.



To avoid having to move a lot of other pipework the shower is going to
have to be raised about 3" off the existing floor level. I was planning
on using 3x6 timber supports either side of the pipe run supporting 18mm
marine ply with the tray bedded into cement on top. The pipes for the
wash basin are along the central axis of the bath.

I would support the ply as much a possible - probably with 4 pieces of
timber - one immediately either side of the pipes and another at each
outer edge of the ply. If you do that, 3 x 3's should be ok rather than
3 x 6.


I don't like plumbing - water can leak out all over the place.


Part of the problem is that if your expectation is that it will leak, it
probably *will*! You need to show it who's the boss! As others have
said, push-fit is easy to work with and fairly idiot proof. And if you
do keep the taps, and decide to re-pipe them, it's worth considering
braided flexible pipes for the last bit up to the taps. You can get
those with a tap connector one end and a push-fit connector the other
end - some with built-in service valves. Assuming they're 3/4" taps
(which bath taps usually are) the push fit is likely to be for 22mm
pipe. The only possible problem would be if the existing pipes are 3/4"
imperial rather than 22mm metric - which would depend on when they were
installed. If that were the case, you'd be better off with a compression
fitting at the other end. Imperial 3/4" is only slightly smaller than
22mm, and you can use 22mm compression fitting with special olives. The
difference - although only a gnats - is too much for push-fit to seal
reliably.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
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On 13/09/2014 00:02, Roger Mills wrote:
On 12/09/2014 16:34, Martin Brown wrote:

I am now thinking carefully about what John has said in an adjacent
response that the taps would themselves form a potential hazard.


It's a valid point. If your mother were to stumble into them, she could
do herself some damage. If you *really* want taps there, maybe you could
box them in, with a hinged lid for when you need to use them.


Also worth noting that if the shower head is demountable, you can fill a
bucket from that.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Martin Brown writes:
I am afraid I was planning to just mess about putting them back onto a
board where they were originally located. It this approach inherently
doomed to fail? TBH I think I stand a much better chance of undoing the
holding nuts on the back of the tap assembly with a suitable plumber
spanner than I do of cutting through the virtually inaccessible pipe.

I replaced two pairs of kitchen taps (different houses) last week.
In neither case were the tap connectors reusable, as both had been
bodged (no washers in one case, had leaked in the other case, and
both assembled with some type of setting gunk which was never going
to come off or reseal).

It was *much* easier to cut them off and fit new parts than it would
have been to try and reuse anything.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 12/09/2014 11:47, Martin Brown wrote:


I am afraid I was planning to just mess about putting them back onto a
board where they were originally located. It this approach inherently
doomed to fail? TBH I think I stand a much better chance of undoing the
holding nuts on the back of the tap assembly with a suitable plumber
spanner than I do of cutting through the virtually inaccessible pipe.



Cut the bath! You are going to scrap it so a jig saw, a bosch/aldi/lidl
multitool, or dare I say it and angle grinder, cut around the tap area
will leave the taps in situ. When you take out the rest of the bath you
will have easy access to the underside of the taps.

The frame of bath may be screwed to the wall with angle brackets behind
any exiting tiles.

Consider also the use of flexible tap connectors for your new installation
http://www.screwfix.com/p/flexible-t...-x-300mm/15015


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 11/09/2014 21:06, newshound wrote:

Also, don't mess about trying to position the taps so that they fit the
existing pipes. Cut the pipes short, fit the taps, connect taps up to
new, over-long pipework, then cut and join new pipe to old, using
compression fittings if space is tight, finally box in. Make the pipe
access cover removable (accessible screws, not nails) even if you seal
with silicone. And add service valves (in fact you could use the service
valve to join the existing pipe to the new).

I am afraid I was planning to just mess about putting them back onto a
board where they were originally located. It this approach inherently
doomed to fail? TBH I think I stand a much better chance of undoing the
holding nuts on the back of the tap assembly with a suitable plumber
spanner than I do of cutting through the virtually inaccessible pipe.


The cylindrical pipe cutters can be used at arm's length - but if the
pipe is close to the wall there might not be space.

Or a multitool to cut the pipes?

Re the shower tray, I put in a low profile tray, it is fine. As long as
you put in a suitable waste with enough flow. Mine came with one, but I
had to replace it with a different one, that was a bit narrower to fit
in the space I had next to the joist.

I have fitted a raised tray on ply, and my last one was flush with the
floor. If I was fitting a raised tray again I'd consider one of the ones
that comes with adjustable legs.
--
Chris French

On 17/09/2014 09:50, Chris French wrote:
In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 11/09/2014 21:06, newshound wrote:

Also, don't mess about trying to position the taps so that they fit the
existing pipes. Cut the pipes short, fit the taps, connect taps up to
new, over-long pipework, then cut and join new pipe to old, using
compression fittings if space is tight, finally box in. Make the pipe
access cover removable (accessible screws, not nails) even if you seal
with silicone. And add service valves (in fact you could use the service
valve to join the existing pipe to the new).

I am afraid I was planning to just mess about putting them back onto a
board where they were originally located. It this approach inherently
doomed to fail? TBH I think I stand a much better chance of undoing
the holding nuts on the back of the tap assembly with a suitable
plumber spanner than I do of cutting through the virtually
inaccessible pipe.


The cylindrical pipe cutters can be used at arm's length - but if the
pipe is close to the wall there might not be space.

Or a multitool to cut the pipes?

Re the shower tray, I put in a low profile tray, it is fine. As long as
you put in a suitable waste with enough flow. Mine came with one, but I
had to replace it with a different one, that was a bit narrower to fit
in the space I had next to the joist.

I have fitted a raised tray on ply, and my last one was flush with the
floor. If I was fitting a raised tray again I'd consider one of the ones
that comes with adjustable legs.

My worry with the easy plumb kit is that with all the miscellaneous
pipework that has been hidden under the old bath footprint there is
bound to be something in the way of one of the legs. A hand crafted
wooden support with 18mm marine ply on top is harder to do but at least
has the merit of being able to choose where I put the supports.

I take your point that adjusting it for true level might prove a PITA.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown