http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave

Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -
oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.

On 02/09/2014 03:10, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave

Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -
oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

I fail to see how it can save anything.

On 02/09/2014 03:56, Clive George wrote:
On 02/09/2014 03:10, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave

Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -
oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.


And only £60 odd quid!


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 02/09/2014 07:19, harryagain wrote:
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

I fail to see how it can save anything.



You turn on the hot tap, presumably you want hot water. The heat
exchanger on the water heater takes time to be heated to working
temperature, until that time the water passing through will not be
heated sufficiently. Hence by limiting water flow until it can be heated
you are saving some of the unwanted cold water that would otherwise flow
through the system. Simples.

If it really provided significant savings they would implement it in the
water heater.

Hmm, so how does spreading the usage over more time save money? After all in
the end its the same amount of water you are heating up. Very odd.
As for magnetic water softeners. I understand that the ones that use a high
voltage alternating field can in fact clog the pipes near them as what
happens is that the bits of limescale etc, clump together, similar to how
air particles do near high voltage cables.

Oh dear.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave

Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -
oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.

Exactly my thoughts. In the end the thermal lag is just spread out more. It
seems to me it will take longer to actually heat the whole water mass to the
temperature, though the heat exchanger might get to the working temp faster
under some conditions.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Nick" wrote in message
...
On 02/09/2014 07:19, harryagain wrote:
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

I fail to see how it can save anything.



You turn on the hot tap, presumably you want hot water. The heat
exchanger on the water heater takes time to be heated to working
temperature, until that time the water passing through will not be
heated sufficiently. Hence by limiting water flow until it can be heated
you are saving some of the unwanted cold water that would otherwise flow
through the system. Simples.

If it really provided significant savings they would implement it in the
water heater.

harryagain wrote:
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

I fail to see how it can save anything.

If there were a reservoir of water already up to temperature I'd agree
with you. But it's for heat-on-demand systems. AFAICS the heat exchanger
will get up to temperature more quickly with a reduced flow of cold
water entering it.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 02/09/14 03:10, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave

Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -
oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.


OK - I hate to say this - but it will have a positive effect.

T0 = time tap was turned on
T1 = time boiler heat exchanger gets up to 42C
t0 = inlet water temp
V = volume of pipe between boiler and tap
F = normal tap-on flow (mass-flow)
f = restricted flow
s = SHC of water

With or without this device you will waste L of cold water - unavoidable
unless you have a loop.

However what this is doing is to save you:

(F-f)(T1-T0)(42-t0)s joules by slowing the flow enough to allow the
boiler flow switch to activate whilst it gets over its thermal lag.

Net result is you get cold water for a bit, then more or less hot water
rather than cold water, then tepid water then hot water.

So what's it save?

Guesstimate figures:

t0 = 5C
(T1-T0) = 5s
F = 0.2 kg/s
s=4200J/kgK

so (42-5) x 0.2 x 5 x 4200 = 155kJ = 0.043kWh

is roughly 0.3p at 7p/unit for gas boiler

And that's only for when the boiler has cooled down. Repeated tap
activations in succession are not a saving.

So it will take 20,000 tap activations to pay for the device and perhaps
50,000 to pay for the device plus a plumber to install it.

*FAIL*

OK - I did not factor in water savings for water meters, but next to
bugger all would be my considered estimate there.

In message , Nick
writes

You turn on the hot tap, presumably you want hot water. The heat
exchanger on the water heater takes time to be heated to working
temperature, until that time the water passing through will not be
heated sufficiently. Hence by limiting water flow until it can be heated
you are saving some of the unwanted cold water that would otherwise flow
through the system. Simples.

I have no experience of combi boilers but, it seems to me that one could
achieve the same result just by partially opening the tap until the
heater is at working temperature, and hot water flows, at which point
open the tap further, or fully, as required.
--
Graeme

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:14:54 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/09/14 03:10, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave



Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -

oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.





OK - I hate to say this - but it will have a positive effect.



Doesn't the modulating part of the boiler adjust the heat input to flow rate for optimum efficiency anyway?

On 02/09/14 08:57, Mike Barnes wrote:

If there were a reservoir of water already up to temperature I'd agree
with you. But it's for heat-on-demand systems. AFAICS the heat exchanger
will get up to temperature more quickly with a reduced flow of cold
water entering it.


Exactly my conclusion.

And after 20,000 such "savings" the unit will have paid off its £60
cost. Unless you pay a plumber to install it...

Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/09/14 08:57, Mike Barnes wrote:

If there were a reservoir of water already up to temperature I'd agree
with you. But it's for heat-on-demand systems. AFAICS the heat exchanger
will get up to temperature more quickly with a reduced flow of cold
water entering it.


Exactly my conclusion.

And after 20,000 such "savings" the unit will have paid off its £60
cost. Unless you pay a plumber to install it...

VIPs (Very Impatient People) will also have got their hot water a second
or two earlier, 20,000 times. Say two seconds times 20,000, that's
almost 12 hours less waiting. Bargain.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:10:48 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave

Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -
oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.

There's another one he

http://combisave.com/

Didn't notice any savings figures, only water in the video.

--

TOJ.

On 02/09/2014 07:57, Nick wrote:
On 02/09/2014 07:19, harryagain wrote:
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

I fail to see how it can save anything.



You turn on the hot tap, presumably you want hot water. The heat
exchanger on the water heater takes time to be heated to working
temperature, until that time the water passing through will not be
heated sufficiently. Hence by limiting water flow until it can be heated
you are saving some of the unwanted cold water that would otherwise flow
through the system. Simples.

If it really provided significant savings they would implement it in the
water heater.

Some combi's in effect do, by keeping a small store of tempered water to
provide more "instant" heat.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/09/2014 08:42, Brian Gaff wrote:
Hmm, so how does spreading the usage over more time save money? After all in
the end its the same amount of water you are heating up. Very odd.

Not quite...

Assuming the boiler is cold when you turn on the tap. The boiler then
needs to bring the HE and the small amount of primary water in the
boiler circuit through the diversion valve and the PHE up to
temperature, which will take a few seconds. If during that time you are
running DHW through the other side of the PHE at full rate you may end
up with several litres of "warm but not hot enough" water that you
waste. By limiting the flow through the mains side of the PHE while the
heating up is happening, you reduce the amount wasted... a bit.

Whether the sums ever add up enough to make it pay is another matter!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/09/2014 09:14, Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/09/14 03:10, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave

Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -
oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.


OK - I hate to say this - but it will have a positive effect.

T0 = time tap was turned on
T1 = time boiler heat exchanger gets up to 42C
t0 = inlet water temp
V = volume of pipe between boiler and tap
F = normal tap-on flow (mass-flow)
f = restricted flow
s = SHC of water

With or without this device you will waste L of cold water - unavoidable
unless you have a loop.

However what this is doing is to save you:

(F-f)(T1-T0)(42-t0)s joules by slowing the flow enough to allow the
boiler flow switch to activate whilst it gets over its thermal lag.

Net result is you get cold water for a bit, then more or less hot water
rather than cold water, then tepid water then hot water.

So what's it save?

Guesstimate figures:

t0 = 5C
(T1-T0) = 5s
F = 0.2 kg/s
s=4200J/kgK

so (42-5) x 0.2 x 5 x 4200 = 155kJ = 0.043kWh

is roughly 0.3p at 7p/unit for gas boiler

And that's only for when the boiler has cooled down. Repeated tap
activations in succession are not a saving.

So it will take 20,000 tap activations to pay for the device and perhaps
50,000 to pay for the device plus a plumber to install it.

*FAIL*

OK - I did not factor in water savings for water meters, but next to
bugger all would be my considered estimate there.

Well if we go with your flow of 0.2 kg/s for 5 secs, that's a litre per
activation. Over 20K activations that's 20 cu m of water at say £3.20
per cube including disposal. So you get another £60 out of it that way.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/09/2014 09:31, mike wrote:
On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:14:54 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/09/14 03:10, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

http://www.guardian-solutions.net/content/flowsave



Biggest piece of bull****e I've seen since magnetic water softeners -

oh, you can buy one of them from the same stockists. What a surprise.





OK - I hate to say this - but it will have a positive effect.



Doesn't the modulating part of the boiler adjust the heat input to flow rate for optimum efficiency anyway?

On a combi fired from cold it will probably run full on until the
primary HE and primary water are up to temperature. Only when the
temperature on the return from the PHE starts to rise will it modulate
(if its one that can)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/09/14 13:25, John Rumm wrote:
*FAIL*

OK - I did not factor in water savings for water meters, but next to
bugger all would be my considered estimate there.

Well if we go with your flow of 0.2 kg/s for 5 secs, that's a litre per
activation. Over 20K activations that's 20 cu m of water at say £3.20
per cube including disposal. So you get another £60 out of it that way.

OK - (I'm not on a water meter, didn't have the costs to hand).

In reality I expect the valve might have died after 20,000 activations.

And how many years is that I wonder...

Lets say 5 activations a day, where the boiler is cold - seems reasonable.

4000 days = just under 11 years. I bet the device would be buggered by
then

On 02/09/2014 06:21, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

You lose a bit less, as the water isn't running full while the heat
exchanger heats up. It's not about the water in the leg, it's about the
water in the heat exchanger. Though you also lose less in the leg, as
the hot water going through it is hotter.

In article ,
Nick wrote:
You turn on the hot tap, presumably you want hot water. The heat
exchanger on the water heater takes time to be heated to working
temperature, until that time the water passing through will not be
heated sufficiently. Hence by limiting water flow until it can be heated
you are saving some of the unwanted cold water that would otherwise flow
through the system. Simples.

That assumes the boiler will run up to full output on a reduced flow.

--
*See no evil, Hear no evil, Date no evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/09/2014 07:57, Nick wrote:
On 02/09/2014 07:19, harryagain wrote:
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

I fail to see how it can save anything.



You turn on the hot tap, presumably you want hot water. The heat
exchanger on the water heater takes time to be heated to working
temperature, until that time the water passing through will not be
heated sufficiently. Hence by limiting water flow until it can be heated
you are saving some of the unwanted cold water that would otherwise flow
through the system. Simples.

If it really provided significant savings they would implement it in the
water heater.

Some combi's in effect do, by keeping a small store of tempered water to
provide more "instant" heat.

I thought that they all did that and that it was part of the current
standard

tim

On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 09:24:24 +0100, News wrote:

I have no experience of combi boilers but, it seems to me that one could
achieve the same result just by partially opening the tap until the
heater is at working temperature, and hot water flows, at which point
open the tap further, or fully, as required.

This is what I was thinking, but getting the wife/kids to do it.....

In message , R D S writes
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 09:24:24 +0100, News wrote:

I have no experience of combi boilers but, it seems to me that one could
achieve the same result just by partially opening the tap until the
heater is at working temperature, and hot water flows, at which point
open the tap further, or fully, as required.

This is what I was thinking, but getting the wife/kids to do it.....

grin Yes, I understand ...
--
Graeme

On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:06:14 +0100, tim..... wrote:

Some combi's in effect do, by keeping a small store of tempered water to
provide more "instant" heat.

I thought that they all did that and that it was part of the current
standard

Mine does (15yo Vaillant) and it is switchable.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 02/09/2014 19:06, tim..... wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 02/09/2014 07:57, Nick wrote:
On 02/09/2014 07:19, harryagain wrote:
"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Sep 2014 03:56:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

Ok, I'll bite.

The concept looks like it doesn't break any laws of physics, unlike
magnetic water softeners. So the product itself doesn't look as much
like bull**** as you say.

Their claimed savings stink though.

It runs the cold water off the hot leg, slowly, until the hot water
reaches it, then opens full.
What's the point of that? You still lose water. The hot water in the
leg still cools. You end up losing as much water down the drain as if
it wasn't there at all.

I fail to see how it can save anything.



You turn on the hot tap, presumably you want hot water. The heat
exchanger on the water heater takes time to be heated to working
temperature, until that time the water passing through will not be
heated sufficiently. Hence by limiting water flow until it can be heated
you are saving some of the unwanted cold water that would otherwise flow
through the system. Simples.

If it really provided significant savings they would implement it in the
water heater.

Some combi's in effect do, by keeping a small store of tempered water
to provide more "instant" heat.

I thought that they all did that and that it was part of the current
standard

There are lots installed ones that don't - it may well be more common on
new models now - can't say I have done any exhaustive checking.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/