I've had building work carried out on my 1860 house/cottage. There is
one item left which is scheduled to be completed on Friday.

One of the main items of work was:

Item 3.**** Front – water ingress

This related to water coming inside from both the bedroom and the
lounge. The bedroom window is a gable type window. Both windows had
been altered in the house's history, enlarged, and originally set back
within an arch they had been moved as far forward as possible with the
arch filled but no supporting lintel.

All this work has been completed, lintels installed*, brickwork redone
and checks for flashing and tiles. Ridge tiles refixed etc.

As I watched yesterday's rain pelt down I had this smug "my house is
now fixed" feeling smashed as I went upstairs and saw a stream of
water, in a new location, to the side of the window. Fortunately we
hadn't yet redecorated.

Before the rain I had agreed with the builder to pay for the remainder
of the work that had been completed (ie before Friday's scheduled
work).

Once I saw the leak I called the builder and to his credit he came
straight out to see it but he doesn't know where it's coming from and
plans to investigate it when he comes on Friday. Nonetheless he still
sent the invoice for the previously agreed amount.

Should I pay - withhold? The value is less than the value of the work
undertaken on that window. How will I know it's fixed if there is no
heavy rain for a few weeks?

Worried.

* Lintels. Heavy angle iron was used. About 1.5" of lintel is
visible and the bottom is rusting through the white paint work. The
upper is just rusting. I accept this is surface rust but that can't
be right can it?


--
AnthonyL

"AnthonyL" wrote in message
...
I've had building work carried out on my 1860 house/cottage. There is
one item left which is scheduled to be completed on Friday.

One of the main items of work was:

Item 3. Front – water ingress

This related to water coming inside from both the bedroom and the
lounge. The bedroom window is a gable type window. Both windows had
been altered in the house's history, enlarged, and originally set back
within an arch they had been moved as far forward as possible with the
arch filled but no supporting lintel.

All this work has been completed, lintels installed*, brickwork redone
and checks for flashing and tiles. Ridge tiles refixed etc.

As I watched yesterday's rain pelt down I had this smug "my house is
now fixed" feeling smashed as I went upstairs and saw a stream of
water, in a new location, to the side of the window. Fortunately we
hadn't yet redecorated.

Before the rain I had agreed with the builder to pay for the remainder
of the work that had been completed (ie before Friday's scheduled
work).

Once I saw the leak I called the builder and to his credit he came
straight out to see it but he doesn't know where it's coming from and
plans to investigate it when he comes on Friday. Nonetheless he still
sent the invoice for the previously agreed amount.

Should I pay - withhold?

Withhold, because the work was not done properly, because it still leaks.

The value is less than the value of the work
undertaken on that window. How will I know
it's fixed if there is no heavy rain for a few weeks?

You don’t. You could try hosing it and see if it leaks,
but if it doesn’t that doesn’t prove that it wont when
you get heavy rain again.

Worried.

* Lintels. Heavy angle iron was used. About 1.5" of lintel is
visible and the bottom is rusting through the white paint work.
The upper is just rusting. I accept this is surface rust but that can't
be right can it?

Yep, it should have been galvanised if they can't ensure that water
can't get onto it. None of mine have rusted in the 40 years since
they were done and they are just painted steel and I know that
because I was the one who painted that steel.

On 12/05/2014 13:30, AnthonyL wrote:
I've had building work carried out on my 1860 house/cottage. There is
one item left which is scheduled to be completed on Friday.

One of the main items of work was:

Item 3. Front – water ingress

This related to water coming inside from both the bedroom and the
lounge. The bedroom window is a gable type window. Both windows had
been altered in the house's history, enlarged, and originally set back
within an arch they had been moved as far forward as possible with the
arch filled but no supporting lintel.

All this work has been completed, lintels installed*, brickwork redone
and checks for flashing and tiles. Ridge tiles refixed etc.

As I watched yesterday's rain pelt down I had this smug "my house is
now fixed" feeling smashed as I went upstairs and saw a stream of
water, in a new location, to the side of the window. Fortunately we
hadn't yet redecorated.

Before the rain I had agreed with the builder to pay for the remainder
of the work that had been completed (ie before Friday's scheduled
work).

Once I saw the leak I called the builder and to his credit he came
straight out to see it but he doesn't know where it's coming from and
plans to investigate it when he comes on Friday. Nonetheless he still
sent the invoice for the previously agreed amount.

Should I pay - withhold? The value is less than the value of the work
undertaken on that window. How will I know it's fixed if there is no
heavy rain for a few weeks?

Worried.

* Lintels. Heavy angle iron was used. About 1.5" of lintel is
visible and the bottom is rusting through the white paint work. The
upper is just rusting. I accept this is surface rust but that can't
be right can it?



Pinning down the source of penetrating damp is a bugger, so I wouldn't
be too hard on the builder.
Windows reset on the outside of the opening often cause problems. Water
penetrates the masonry above the window and ends up inside instead of
outside (the original design). Sometimes the lintel diverts it to the
side of the window. Is the wall rendered?

On Mon, 12 May 2014 20:10:14 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 12/05/2014 13:30, AnthonyL wrote:
I've had building work carried out on my 1860 house/cottage. There is
one item left which is scheduled to be completed on Friday.

One of the main items of work was:

Item 3. Front – water ingress

This related to water coming inside from both the bedroom and the
lounge. The bedroom window is a gable type window. Both windows had
been altered in the house's history, enlarged, and originally set back
within an arch they had been moved as far forward as possible with the
arch filled but no supporting lintel.

All this work has been completed, lintels installed*, brickwork redone
and checks for flashing and tiles. Ridge tiles refixed etc.

As I watched yesterday's rain pelt down I had this smug "my house is
now fixed" feeling smashed as I went upstairs and saw a stream of
water, in a new location, to the side of the window. Fortunately we
hadn't yet redecorated.

Before the rain I had agreed with the builder to pay for the remainder
of the work that had been completed (ie before Friday's scheduled
work).

Once I saw the leak I called the builder and to his credit he came
straight out to see it but he doesn't know where it's coming from and
plans to investigate it when he comes on Friday. Nonetheless he still
sent the invoice for the previously agreed amount.

Should I pay - withhold? The value is less than the value of the work
undertaken on that window. How will I know it's fixed if there is no
heavy rain for a few weeks?

Worried.

* Lintels. Heavy angle iron was used. About 1.5" of lintel is
visible and the bottom is rusting through the white paint work. The
upper is just rusting. I accept this is surface rust but that can't
be right can it?



Pinning down the source of penetrating damp is a bugger, so I wouldn't
be too hard on the builder.
Windows reset on the outside of the opening often cause problems. Water
penetrates the masonry above the window and ends up inside instead of
outside (the original design). Sometimes the lintel diverts it to the
side of the window. Is the wall rendered?

His remit was to stop the water ingress. It wasn't damp, it was a
stream running down. You could see the water flowing and then soaking
into the new plaster which he had done to repair the old plaster
damage.

As part of the attempted solution to the original problem the window,
which was flush to the outside wall, has now been inset approx 1.5".
It is that 1.5" of untreated angle iron that is visible.

That part of the wall (the gable arch) had been rendered in an old
attempt to stop ingress. The rendering has been removed as part of
this job.

At one point he had the whole window out and the brickwork removed so
that he could rebuild it properly.

I've told him that I am deferring payment which amounts to about 70%
of that part of the job.


--
AnthonyL

On 13/05/2014 12:57, AnthonyL wrote:
On Mon, 12 May 2014 20:10:14 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 12/05/2014 13:30, AnthonyL wrote:
I've had building work carried out on my 1860 house/cottage. There is
one item left which is scheduled to be completed on Friday.

One of the main items of work was:

Item 3. Front – water ingress

This related to water coming inside from both the bedroom and the
lounge. The bedroom window is a gable type window. Both windows had
been altered in the house's history, enlarged, and originally set back
within an arch they had been moved as far forward as possible with the
arch filled but no supporting lintel.

All this work has been completed, lintels installed*, brickwork redone
and checks for flashing and tiles. Ridge tiles refixed etc.

As I watched yesterday's rain pelt down I had this smug "my house is
now fixed" feeling smashed as I went upstairs and saw a stream of
water, in a new location, to the side of the window. Fortunately we
hadn't yet redecorated.

Before the rain I had agreed with the builder to pay for the remainder
of the work that had been completed (ie before Friday's scheduled
work).

Once I saw the leak I called the builder and to his credit he came
straight out to see it but he doesn't know where it's coming from and
plans to investigate it when he comes on Friday. Nonetheless he still
sent the invoice for the previously agreed amount.

Should I pay - withhold? The value is less than the value of the work
undertaken on that window. How will I know it's fixed if there is no
heavy rain for a few weeks?

Worried.

* Lintels. Heavy angle iron was used. About 1.5" of lintel is
visible and the bottom is rusting through the white paint work. The
upper is just rusting. I accept this is surface rust but that can't
be right can it?



Pinning down the source of penetrating damp is a bugger, so I wouldn't
be too hard on the builder.
Windows reset on the outside of the opening often cause problems. Water
penetrates the masonry above the window and ends up inside instead of
outside (the original design). Sometimes the lintel diverts it to the
side of the window. Is the wall rendered?

His remit was to stop the water ingress. It wasn't damp, it was a
stream running down. You could see the water flowing and then soaking
into the new plaster which he had done to repair the old plaster
damage.

As part of the attempted solution to the original problem the window,
which was flush to the outside wall, has now been inset approx 1.5".
It is that 1.5" of untreated angle iron that is visible.

That part of the wall (the gable arch) had been rendered in an old
attempt to stop ingress. The rendering has been removed as part of
this job.

At one point he had the whole window out and the brickwork removed so
that he could rebuild it properly.

I've told him that I am deferring payment which amounts to about 70%
of that part of the job.


Often water starts coming in a long way from the affected area, and
moves through the masonry till it finds a weak point. The fact that it's
a "stream" should in theory make it easier to pin down. Possibly 1.5"
isn't enough of an inset? Nobody wants to lose an interior sill but...
A picture might prompt some suggestions.

On Tue, 13 May 2014 13:46:03 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 13/05/2014 12:57, AnthonyL wrote:
On Mon, 12 May 2014 20:10:14 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 12/05/2014 13:30, AnthonyL wrote:
I've had building work carried out on my 1860 house/cottage. There is
one item left which is scheduled to be completed on Friday.

One of the main items of work was:

Item 3. Front – water ingress

This related to water coming inside from both the bedroom and the
lounge. The bedroom window is a gable type window. Both windows had
been altered in the house's history, enlarged, and originally set back
within an arch they had been moved as far forward as possible with the
arch filled but no supporting lintel.

All this work has been completed, lintels installed*, brickwork redone
and checks for flashing and tiles. Ridge tiles refixed etc.

As I watched yesterday's rain pelt down I had this smug "my house is
now fixed" feeling smashed as I went upstairs and saw a stream of
water, in a new location, to the side of the window. Fortunately we
hadn't yet redecorated.

Before the rain I had agreed with the builder to pay for the remainder
of the work that had been completed (ie before Friday's scheduled
work).

Once I saw the leak I called the builder and to his credit he came
straight out to see it but he doesn't know where it's coming from and
plans to investigate it when he comes on Friday. Nonetheless he still
sent the invoice for the previously agreed amount.

Should I pay - withhold? The value is less than the value of the work
undertaken on that window. How will I know it's fixed if there is no
heavy rain for a few weeks?

Worried.

* Lintels. Heavy angle iron was used. About 1.5" of lintel is
visible and the bottom is rusting through the white paint work. The
upper is just rusting. I accept this is surface rust but that can't
be right can it?



Pinning down the source of penetrating damp is a bugger, so I wouldn't
be too hard on the builder.
Windows reset on the outside of the opening often cause problems. Water
penetrates the masonry above the window and ends up inside instead of
outside (the original design). Sometimes the lintel diverts it to the
side of the window. Is the wall rendered?

His remit was to stop the water ingress. It wasn't damp, it was a
stream running down. You could see the water flowing and then soaking
into the new plaster which he had done to repair the old plaster
damage.

As part of the attempted solution to the original problem the window,
which was flush to the outside wall, has now been inset approx 1.5".
It is that 1.5" of untreated angle iron that is visible.

That part of the wall (the gable arch) had been rendered in an old
attempt to stop ingress. The rendering has been removed as part of
this job.

At one point he had the whole window out and the brickwork removed so
that he could rebuild it properly.

I've told him that I am deferring payment which amounts to about 70%
of that part of the job.


Often water starts coming in a long way from the affected area, and
moves through the masonry till it finds a weak point. The fact that it's
a "stream" should in theory make it easier to pin down. Possibly 1.5"
isn't enough of an inset? Nobody wants to lose an interior sill but...
A picture might prompt some suggestions.



That's what worries me. The work started at the ridge tiles on top of
the roof, cracked/missing tiles and continued down. The roof is felt
lined under the tiles and I worry that it is coming down that way.

The water is coming in from above the inset. I have some photos
including some of work in progress but I need another one with the
finished outside job which I'll take tomorrow and put up somewhere and
post a link.



--
AnthonyL

On Tue, 13 May 2014 20:32:52 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Tue, 13 May 2014 13:46:03 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:


Often water starts coming in a long way from the affected area, and
moves through the masonry till it finds a weak point. The fact that it's
a "stream" should in theory make it easier to pin down. Possibly 1.5"
isn't enough of an inset? Nobody wants to lose an interior sill but...
A picture might prompt some suggestions.



That's what worries me. The work started at the ridge tiles on top of
the roof, cracked/missing tiles and continued down. The roof is felt
lined under the tiles and I worry that it is coming down that way.

The water is coming in from above the inset. I have some photos
including some of work in progress but I need another one with the
finished outside job which I'll take tomorrow and put up somewhere and
post a link.


The builder is coming tomorrow, though he did come last Sunday to see
the water ingress during the downpour.

I've uploaded a series of photos to:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/790182...57644255441508

The photos are full size in case anyone wants to zoom in on any
detail. I've got more and can take more.

A few notes:

1) From inside the bedroom looking at the window the main leak is to
the top right and the staining of the ceiling paper can be seen.
There is also a smaller and slight staining of the ceiling paper to
the top left of the window.

The vertical new plaster line to the right of the window is where the
plaster was repaired from damage due to previous water ingress. The
stream of water last Sunday was down this same line.

On the ceiling the paper can be seen to be coming away. The paper has
been up since the late 1980's and that part was definitely coming away
in 1997 when I re-stuck it on (I remember the year because I had an
important visitor). The paper isn't stained but we started to pull it
off on Sunday then decided to leave it till there was more time.

2) Other photos show the overall view of the job and the work on the
window gable. It is frustrating that the scaffolding has since been
removed and the whole of the inside of the gable had been exposed.

3) There are shots from the loft of the gable. Whilst up there this
morning I noted I could see bits of daylight through the odd tear in
the roofing felt. Is this normal? I expect there must be more light
visible if I removed the felt.

4) For those that have commented on cavity walls, this is an 1860
Victorian building - no cavity wall.

5) The exposed rusting angle iron lintel is clearly shown in one photo
as well as a close up of the roof.

Thank you for your help to date. I've procrastinated for years about
getting someone in to do this work for the very fear of some of the
problems I've now encountered with this job and the rebuilt arches are
nowhere near what the Victorian bricklayers could do.


--
AnthonyL

AnthonyL wrote:

His remit was to stop the water ingress. It wasn't damp, it was a
stream running down. You could see the water flowing and then soaking
into the new plaster which he had done to repair the old plaster
damage.

As part of the attempted solution to the original problem the window,
which was flush to the outside wall, has now been inset approx 1.5".
It is that 1.5" of untreated angle iron that is visible.

That part of the wall (the gable arch) had been rendered in an old
attempt to stop ingress. The rendering has been removed as part of
this job.

At one point he had the whole window out and the brickwork removed so
that he could rebuild it properly.

I've told him that I am deferring payment which amounts to about 70%
of that part of the job.

I went to my doctors last week, he asked me what was wrong with me, I told
him, 'you're the doctor, you tell me'.

Needless to say, I'm still unwell.

Phil L wrote:

I went to my doctors last week, he asked me what was wrong with me, I
told him, 'you're the doctor, you tell me'.

Needless to say, I'm still unwell.


It's coming down the cavity and in through the top of the arch / lintel /
whatever is there now.

An inch or an inch and half will have no effect.

The only stop to this is a cavity tray, either plastic or lead, and weep
holes to outside.

On Tue, 13 May 2014 22:54:20 +0100, Phil L wrote:

It's coming down the cavity and in through the top of the arch / lintel
/ whatever is there now.

Assuming it's a cavity wall.

But yes, from the description, water ingress at top of window now
moved to sides indicates that the water is getting in above the
window flowing down inside(*) the wall until it gets to the new
lintel that diverts it to the sides.

The actual ingress could be a a considerable distance from the window
and quite possibly not directly above it either. All depends on the
wall and how water can travel through it.

(*) Inside as in through the mortar joints rather than down the
cavity of a cavity wall.


--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 13 May 2014 19:50:37 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:

His remit was to stop the water ingress. It wasn't damp, it was a
stream running down. You could see the water flowing and then soaking
into the new plaster which he had done to repair the old plaster
damage.

As part of the attempted solution to the original problem the window,
which was flush to the outside wall, has now been inset approx 1.5".
It is that 1.5" of untreated angle iron that is visible.

That part of the wall (the gable arch) had been rendered in an old
attempt to stop ingress. The rendering has been removed as part of
this job.

At one point he had the whole window out and the brickwork removed so
that he could rebuild it properly.

I've told him that I am deferring payment which amounts to about 70%
of that part of the job.

I went to my doctors last week, he asked me what was wrong with me, I told
him, 'you're the doctor, you tell me'.

Needless to say, I'm still unwell.


I'm still struggling to follow what you are trying to say. Are you
suggesting I should ask my doctor?

--
AnthonyL

AnthonyL wrote:
On Tue, 13 May 2014 19:50:37 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:

AnthonyL wrote:

His remit was to stop the water ingress. It wasn't damp, it was a
stream running down. You could see the water flowing and then
soaking into the new plaster which he had done to repair the old
plaster damage.

As part of the attempted solution to the original problem the
window, which was flush to the outside wall, has now been inset
approx 1.5". It is that 1.5" of untreated angle iron that is
visible.

That part of the wall (the gable arch) had been rendered in an old
attempt to stop ingress. The rendering has been removed as part of
this job.

At one point he had the whole window out and the brickwork removed
so that he could rebuild it properly.

I've told him that I am deferring payment which amounts to about 70%
of that part of the job.

I went to my doctors last week, he asked me what was wrong with me,
I told him, 'you're the doctor, you tell me'.

Needless to say, I'm still unwell.


I'm still struggling to follow what you are trying to say. Are you
suggesting I should ask my doctor?

No, I was saying that asking someone to stop water ingress and refusing to
pay until it happens is a bit rum.

If someone's priced a job and carried out everything on the quote, then the
desired outcome isn't what you expected, it's not that person's fault

AnthonyL wrote:
I've had building work carried out on my 1860 house/cottage. There is
one item left which is scheduled to be completed on Friday.

One of the main items of work was:

Item 3. Front – water ingress

This related to water coming inside from both the bedroom and the
lounge. The bedroom window is a gable type window. Both windows had
been altered in the house's history, enlarged, and originally set back
within an arch they had been moved as far forward as possible with the
arch filled but no supporting lintel.


The water ingress is probably rain coming through theoutside skin and then
entering via the arch.

They should have been left set back, as then the rain would still be outside

All this work has been completed, lintels installed*, brickwork redone
and checks for flashing and tiles. Ridge tiles refixed etc.

As I watched yesterday's rain pelt down I had this smug "my house is
now fixed" feeling smashed as I went upstairs and saw a stream of
water, in a new location, to the side of the window. Fortunately we
hadn't yet redecorated.

Before the rain I had agreed with the builder to pay for the remainder
of the work that had been completed (ie before Friday's scheduled
work).

Once I saw the leak I called the builder and to his credit he came
straight out to see it but he doesn't know where it's coming from and
plans to investigate it when he comes on Friday. Nonetheless he still
sent the invoice for the previously agreed amount.

Should I pay - withhold? The value is less than the value of the work
undertaken on that window. How will I know it's fixed if there is no
heavy rain for a few weeks?

Worried.

* Lintels. Heavy angle iron was used. About 1.5" of lintel is
visible and the bottom is rusting through the white paint work. The
upper is just rusting. I accept this is surface rust but that can't
be right can it?

If it's new steel it's normally galvanised, although occasionally you find
un-galvanised lintels.

Surface rust will simply brush off and can be painted properly, then
hopefully no more should form

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
... rain leaking in ...
} How will I know it's fixed if there is no
}heavy rain for a few weeks?

Use a hose now to determine how to reproduce the effect of the rain. Then
when an alleged repair is done, apply the hose in the same manner and
see if the leak has stopped.

On Tue, 13 May 2014 01:17:19 +0000, Charles Bryant
wrote:

In article ,
AnthonyL wrote:
.. rain leaking in ...
} How will I know it's fixed if there is no
}heavy rain for a few weeks?

Use a hose now to determine how to reproduce the effect of the rain. Then
when an alleged repair is done, apply the hose in the same manner and
see if the leak has stopped.

He had suggested a "suck it and see" approach. I have proposed your
suggestion thanks otherwise we will never know for sure what was the
source and what was the cure.


--
AnthonyL