Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

On 22/04/2014 23:47, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

I used to have a jeweller's torch, which electrolysed water to produce a
very hot, very fine, oxy-hydrogen flame, which was ideal for very fine
silver soldering. I've long since forgotten the name though.

Colin Bignell

replying to Cursitor Doom , stanhvac1 wrote:
cd wrote:

Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.
Cheers,
cd.



You can use a map torch which is simmler to a propane torch however, the
map gas burns at 1200 F. degrees. You can use 6% flux brazing rods, 15% or
45% silver solder also with this torch. In addition you can use regular
propane tanks with the map torch tip. The map torch heads are much
stronger than a regular propane head and most of the better one have a
built in puch button spark ignitor. I think you can get one at Lowe's or
Home Depo. We get ours from HVAC distributors.
--
Stan Chaney HVACR
Commercial Refrigeration & HVAC
7325 Fairystone Park Hwy.
Bassett, VA 24055
(276)629-2803

--

"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that of the
metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a copper
based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper alloy
(usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.

On 23/04/2014 06:47, harryagain wrote:
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that of the
metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a copper
based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper alloy
(usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.



As a materials scientist with a doctorate in materials processing, I can
offer the following:

You are quite right that welding involves the melting of one or both of
the parent metals with or without a filler metal.

As far as soldering and brazing are concerned, they are one and the same
process. They do NOT involve melting the parent metals at all, just the
melting of a filler metal.

The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it.

So if you wish to carry out brazing instead of soldering, you need a
hotter torch, most likely different fluxes (because you are now working
with different parent metals and different filler metals as well as at a
higher temperature.)

"harryagain" wrote in message ...


"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
.. .
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that of the
metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a copper
based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper alloy
(usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.

Damn! Apple has the mucus market now?

"Stephen" wrote in message ...

On 23/04/2014 06:47, harryagain wrote:
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that of
the
metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a copper
based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper alloy
(usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.



As a materials scientist with a doctorate in materials processing, I can
offer the following:

You are quite right that welding involves the melting of one or both of the
parent metals with or without a filler metal.

As far as soldering and brazing are concerned, they are one and the same
process. They do NOT involve melting the parent metals at all, just the
melting of a filler metal.

The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering. If
the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it.

So if you wish to carry out brazing instead of soldering, you need a hotter
torch, most likely different fluxes (because you are now working with
different parent metals and different filler metals as well as at a higher
temperature.)

I would just add to Stephens wise words though that when brazing, often the
parent metal will migrate, presumably by dissolving, into the braze metal,
markedly altering it's characteristics. It can happen that having brazed
something satisfactorily with a particular torch it becomes impossible to
unbraze it with the same set up as the melting point of the braze has now
changed.

Being in possession of oxy-acetylene means that I rarely have problems
getting things 'done or undone' but a marginal torch can be a nightmare. I
did once have one of those jewellers oxy-hydrogen set ups mentioned in a
previous post - seem to remember that the gases were bubbled through alcohol
to add to the fuel mix. Very much under powered for my jobs, but then I'm
not a jeweller

Andrew

"Stephen" wrote in message
...
On 23/04/2014 06:47, harryagain wrote:
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that of
the
metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a copper
based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper alloy
(usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.



As a materials scientist with a doctorate in materials processing, I can
offer the following:

You are quite right that welding involves the melting of one or both of
the parent metals with or without a filler metal.

As far as soldering and brazing are concerned, they are one and the same
process. They do NOT involve melting the parent metals at all, just the
melting of a filler metal.

The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering. If
the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it.

"Hard" and "soft" soldering are terms used in industry.
Referring to the difference beween lead and copper alloys.
So yes it does come into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_so...hard_soldering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder#Lead_solder

On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
....
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

Colin Bignell

On 23/04/2014 08:05, Andrew Mawson wrote:
....
I would just add to Stephens wise words though that when brazing, often
the parent metal will migrate, presumably by dissolving, into the braze
metal, markedly altering it's characteristics. It can happen that
having brazed something satisfactorily with a particular torch it
becomes impossible to unbraze it with the same set up as the melting
point of the braze has now changed.
....

That can happen when working silver, even with soft solders, but there
are special alloys that resist the migration.

Colin Bignell

On 23/04/2014 08:32, harryagain wrote:
....
"Hard" and "soft" soldering are terms used in industry.
Referring to the difference beween lead and copper alloys...

Except, of course, that the real difference is in the temperatures at
which they melt, not the material of the alloys. There are plenty of
lead-free soft solders about and many copper-free hard solders.

Colin Bignell

On 23/04/2014 09:42, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-22, Nightjar wrote:
On 22/04/2014 23:47, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

I used to have a jeweller's torch, which electrolysed water to produce a
very hot, very fine, oxy-hydrogen flame, which was ideal for very fine
silver soldering. I've long since forgotten the name though.

That's a pity, since it would be ideal for repairing our Russell-Hobbs
electric kettle. Every few years, the spout, which is silver soldered on,
falls off and we end up having to buy a new one, a purchase which irks my
"make do and mend" bump.

I think the Model 30 here was the device:

http://www.hswalsh.com/categories/micro-flame

It will be cheaper to keep replacing the kettles, if that is your only
use for it. :-)

Colin Bignell

Richard wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message ...


"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that of
the metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a
copper based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper
alloy (usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.

Damn! Apple has the mucus market now?
ROTFL excellent!!

In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

I have a small jeweller's blowlamp bought from B&Q some time back badged
BernzOmatic which produces a very small hot flame. Uses ordinary lighter
gas re-fills. Have used it for brazing small items. And for soldering
things too large for a soldering iron - like lugs to starter cable - where
the small accurate flame is easier to direct and prevent damage to the
insulation than a normal blowlamp

--
*A nest isn't empty until all their stuff is out of the attic

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Nightjar wrote:

I think the Model 30 here was the device:

http://www.hswalsh.com/categories/micro-flame

It will be cheaper to keep replacing the kettles, if that is your only
use for it. :-)

Cheaper still to select a different kettle.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 23/04/2014 10:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

I have a small jeweller's blowlamp bought from B&Q some time back badged
BernzOmatic which produces a very small hot flame. Uses ordinary lighter
gas re-fills. Have used it for brazing small items. And for soldering
things too large for a soldering iron - like lugs to starter cable - where
the small accurate flame is easier to direct and prevent damage to the
insulation than a normal blowlamp

This is something similar, I find them surprisingly good

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GAS-BUTANE...em48 5770df76

I also regularly do silver soldering on ironwork with an ordinary
plumbers gas torch (on separate propane bottles), the only problem is
heat loss on larger sections preventing you reaching the good red heat
which you need. Loads of stuff on Google and easy-flo or similar fluxes
are readily available on eBay.

I have a selection of vermiculite "fire bricks" which I use to build a
suitable brazing hearth. This is an expensive and not very good example

http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/brazing-hearth

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 9:46:09 AM UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-23, stanhvac1 wrote:

You can use a map torch which is simmler to a propane torch however, the
map gas burns at 1200 F. degrees. You can use 6% flux brazing rods, 15% or
45% silver solder also with this torch. In addition you can use regular
propane tanks with the map torch tip. The map torch heads are much
stronger than a regular propane head and most of the better one have a
built in puch button spark ignitor. I think you can get one at Lowe's or
Home Depo. We get ours from HVAC distributors.

Fascinating, and useful to a greater or lesser extent, and thank you, but
you are aware that this newsgroup is UK based? Oh, and it's "MAPP", not
"MAP".
MAPP gas is a trademarked name belonging to Linde Group,
previously to Dow, for a fuel gas based on a stabilized mixture of
methylacetylene and propadiene. The name comes from the original
chemical composition: methylacetylene-propadiene propane. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapp_gas

No need to be snotty, the man's trying to help


NT

Huge wrote:


That's a pity, since it would be ideal for repairing our Russell-Hobbs
electric kettle. Every few years, the spout, which is silver soldered on,
falls off and we end up having to buy a new one, a purchase which irks my
"make do and mend" bump.


I did this exact repair successfully with aluminium solder and a blow
torch. Got the metal too hot with the torch, let it cool, applied the
solder with a soldering iron at the right moment.

Bill

In article ,
newshound wrote:
I have a small jeweller's blowlamp bought from B&Q some time back
badged BernzOmatic which produces a very small hot flame. Uses
ordinary lighter gas re-fills. Have used it for brazing small items.
And for soldering things too large for a soldering iron - like lugs to
starter cable - where the small accurate flame is easier to direct and
prevent damage to the insulation than a normal blowlamp

This is something similar, I find them surprisingly good

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GAS-BUTANE...em48 5770df76

I'd expect that to have a less concentrated flame? The one I have produces
a flame more akin to an oxy-acetylene torch. Sort of sharp edges. ;-)

--
*Toilet stolen from police station. Cops have nothing to go on.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/04/2014 10:34, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-23, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 09:42, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-22, Nightjar wrote:


I used to have a jeweller's torch, which electrolysed water to produce a
very hot, very fine, oxy-hydrogen flame, which was ideal for very fine
silver soldering. I've long since forgotten the name though.

That's a pity, since it would be ideal for repairing our Russell-Hobbs
electric kettle. Every few years, the spout, which is silver soldered on,
falls off and we end up having to buy a new one, a purchase which irks my
"make do and mend" bump.

I think the Model 30 here was the device:

http://www.hswalsh.com/categories/micro-flame

It will be cheaper to keep replacing the kettles, if that is your only
use for it. :-)

Holy ****, yes. OTOH, the MAPP gas option looks viable. And experience teaches
me that tools bought for one job frequently turn out to be useful for all kinds
of other things.


That is what happened with this. It was about the only tool for a
particular job (putting precise portions of silver solder at intervals
along 0.75mm OD 7x7 cable laid stainless steel wire without discolouring
the wire or needing a lot of flux on it) and we later wondered how we
had done without it for all sorts of fine jobs. ISTR it was about a
quarter of today's price when we bought it though, which was not a
problem as the job brought in about £10k pa for the next five years.

Colin Bignell

On 23/04/2014 13:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
I have a small jeweller's blowlamp bought from B&Q some time back
badged BernzOmatic which produces a very small hot flame. Uses
ordinary lighter gas re-fills. Have used it for brazing small items.
And for soldering things too large for a soldering iron - like lugs to
starter cable - where the small accurate flame is easier to direct and
prevent damage to the insulation than a normal blowlamp

This is something similar, I find them surprisingly good

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GAS-BUTANE...em48 5770df76

I'd expect that to have a less concentrated flame? The one I have produces
a flame more akin to an oxy-acetylene torch. Sort of sharp edges. ;-)


Depends on the amount of air which is adjustable, the ones I have used
can give the classic blue inner cone, not as short as with OA but still
very concentrated and hot at the tip.

On 23/04/2014 08:05, Andrew Mawson wrote:
"Stephen" wrote in message ...

On 23/04/2014 06:47, harryagain wrote:
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that
of the
metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a copper
based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper alloy
(usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.



As a materials scientist with a doctorate in materials processing, I
can offer the following:

You are quite right that welding involves the melting of one or both
of the parent metals with or without a filler metal.

As far as soldering and brazing are concerned, they are one and the
same process. They do NOT involve melting the parent metals at all,
just the melting of a filler metal.

The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called
soldering. If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it.

So if you wish to carry out brazing instead of soldering, you need a
hotter torch, most likely different fluxes (because you are now
working with different parent metals and different filler metals as
well as at a higher temperature.)

I would just add to Stephens wise words though that when brazing, often
the parent metal will migrate, presumably by dissolving, into the braze
metal, markedly altering it's characteristics. It can happen that
having brazed something satisfactorily with a particular torch it
becomes impossible to unbraze it with the same set up as the melting
point of the braze has now changed.


Andrew

I would just like to add to Andrew's wise words too....

what you are describing as migration is atomic diffusion of the parent
metal into the molten filler metal and vice versa.

This forms intermetallic compounds. A good example is copper wire with
tin based solders, this will form two specific intermetallics:

Cu3Sn and Cu5Sn6

So when a soldered electrical joint is microsectioned and polished and
examined under electron microscopy, you will see the joint as:

Pure copper : Cu3Sn : Cu5Sn6 | tin.

The two intermetallic layers will be the order of micrometres thick.

It is the formation of these intermetallics that alter the mechanical
properties of the joint leading you to observe the inability to unbraze
it..... :-)

Similar things happen with nickel and tin, which is why component leads
are sometimes nickel plated instead of "tinned" with solder.

ENIG PCBs (ENIG is Electroless Nickel Immersion Gold) help with
solderability as the gold and tin based solders will readily form a
gold-tin intermetallic.

On 23/04/2014 08:38, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
...
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

Colin Bignell



well "hard soldering" may well be the old fashioned name for brazing but
I can assure you that the difference between brazing and soldering
relates to the process temperature rather than the hardness of the
filler metal.

On 23/04/2014 08:32, harryagain wrote:
"Stephen" wrote in message
...
On 23/04/2014 06:47, harryagain wrote:
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Sometimes I need to join a couple of pieces of metal that are too much
for solder yet too delicate for arc welding. For those odd times,
brazing would be useful, but the standard propane torch I use for
plumbing is hopeless; the flame just isn't precise enough.
Can anyone recommend a brazing torch that would meet my requirements?
Something I could find in BnQ ideally. And should I be using propane,
butane, or some other gas? The 'metal' concerned is typically some
form of steel - mild, stainless, HT or HSS.

Cheers,

cd.

Brazing or hard soldering is carried out at temperatures below that of
the
metals being joined so think of it as a soldering process using a copper
based alloy instead of lead.
Brazing is a lot stronger than "soft" soldering because the copper alloy
(usually brass) is stronger than lead.
One of the few methods of joining/repairing cast iron.

Welding actually melts the metals being joined.
So a fine point flame i snot required, just hotter and maybe bigger.



As a materials scientist with a doctorate in materials processing, I can
offer the following:

You are quite right that welding involves the melting of one or both of
the parent metals with or without a filler metal.

As far as soldering and brazing are concerned, they are one and the same
process. They do NOT involve melting the parent metals at all, just the
melting of a filler metal.

The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering. If
the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it.

"Hard" and "soft" soldering are terms used in industry.
Referring to the difference beween lead and copper alloys.
So yes it does come into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_so...hard_soldering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder#Lead_solder



"hard" & "soft"They are old fashioned terms used to describe brazing vs
soldering, not down to the hardness of the filler metal.

On 23/04/2014 09:22, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 08:32, harryagain wrote:
...
"Hard" and "soft" soldering are terms used in industry.
Referring to the difference beween lead and copper alloys...

Except, of course, that the real difference is in the temperatures at
which they melt, not the material of the alloys. There are plenty of
lead-free soft solders about and many copper-free hard solders.

Colin Bignell

precisely.....

On 23/04/2014 17:55, Stephen wrote:
On 23/04/2014 08:38, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
...
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

Colin Bignell



well "hard soldering" may well be the old fashioned name for brazing but
I can assure you that the difference between brazing and soldering
relates to the process temperature rather than the hardness of the
filler metal.

When I was studying metalwork mumblety years ago, there were four ways
of joining metal involving heat.

Welding - With or without filler rod. I never did get the trick of it. :-/

Brazing - Brass filler rods with Borax flux when joining steel or iron.
My preferred option if a reasonable joint strength was needed.

Silver Soldering - Similar to brazing, with a similar flux, but using a
silver alloy with a lower melting point than brass. For when the
blowlamp couldn't get the metal hot enough to braze, or the parent metal
was something like copper, with a lower melting point than the brazing
rods. Handy for model steam engine boilers.

Soft soldering - Using a lead/ tin alloy with either an acid or rosin
based flux, depending on what was being joined. The solder varied from
what was known as Tinman's solder (Almost pure tin) to almost pure lead,
but was mostly near the 63/37 eutectic mixture. The heating varied from
a tiddly little electric iron to a flamin' great blowlamp, via a half
pound copper bit heated in a gas oven on the workbench until the gas
flame was just tinged slightly with green.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 23/04/2014 18:09, John Williamson wrote:
On 23/04/2014 17:55, Stephen wrote:
On 23/04/2014 08:38, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
...
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

Colin Bignell



well "hard soldering" may well be the old fashioned name for brazing but
I can assure you that the difference between brazing and soldering
relates to the process temperature rather than the hardness of the
filler metal.

When I was studying metalwork mumblety years ago, there were four ways
of joining metal involving heat.

Welding - With or without filler rod. I never did get the trick of it. :-/

Brazing - Brass filler rods with Borax flux when joining steel or iron.
My preferred option if a reasonable joint strength was needed.

Silver Soldering - Similar to brazing, with a similar flux, but using a
silver alloy with a lower melting point than brass. For when the
blowlamp couldn't get the metal hot enough to braze, or the parent metal
was something like copper, with a lower melting point than the brazing
rods. Handy for model steam engine boilers.

Soft soldering - Using a lead/ tin alloy with either an acid or rosin
based flux, depending on what was being joined. The solder varied from
what was known as Tinman's solder (Almost pure tin) to almost pure lead,
but was mostly near the 63/37 eutectic mixture. The heating varied from
a tiddly little electric iron to a flamin' great blowlamp, via a half
pound copper bit heated in a gas oven on the workbench until the gas
flame was just tinged slightly with green.


I'm obviously considerably younger than you then, I trained in materials
science to masters and doctoral level in late 1990's early 2000's....
What you describe sounds very 1960's or 1970's......

joining technology has moved on considerably since then!

On 23/04/2014 17:55, Stephen wrote:
On 23/04/2014 08:38, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
...
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

well "hard soldering" may well be the old fashioned name for brazing but
I can assure you that the difference between brazing and soldering
relates to the process temperature rather than the hardness of the
filler metal.


You sound like an academic. In the real world, hard soldering and soft
soldering are well known and well understood terms. I suspect the
derivation has more to do with the metals that they are used on, than
the alloys used for joining them: another 'old fashioned' bit of
engineering terminology is to call people who work in steel hard metal
workers and those who work in copper alloys soft metal workers.

Colin Bignell

On 23/04/2014 10:37, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-23, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

I think the Model 30 here was the device:

http://www.hswalsh.com/categories/micro-flame

It will be cheaper to keep replacing the kettles, if that is your only
use for it. :-)

Cheaper still to select a different kettle.

Quite possibly, but we do not select items simply on the single criterion
of cheapness.

One that has spots falling off hardly sounds value for money?

On 23/04/2014 19:18, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 17:55, Stephen wrote:
On 23/04/2014 08:38, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
...
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

well "hard soldering" may well be the old fashioned name for brazing but
I can assure you that the difference between brazing and soldering
relates to the process temperature rather than the hardness of the
filler metal.


You sound like an academic. In the real world, hard soldering and soft
soldering are well known and well understood terms. I suspect the
derivation has more to do with the metals that they are used on, than
the alloys used for joining them: another 'old fashioned' bit of
engineering terminology is to call people who work in steel hard metal
workers and those who work in copper alloys soft metal workers.

Colin Bignell

nope, not an academic... I'm a materials technologist.

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

On 23/04/2014 17:55, Stephen wrote:
On 23/04/2014 08:38, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
...
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

well "hard soldering" may well be the old fashioned name for brazing but
I can assure you that the difference between brazing and soldering
relates to the process temperature rather than the hardness of the
filler metal.


You sound like an academic. In the real world, hard soldering and soft
soldering are well known and well understood terms. I suspect the
derivation has more to do with the metals that they are used on, than the
alloys used for joining them: another 'old fashioned' bit of engineering
terminology is to call people who work in steel hard metal workers and
those who work in copper alloys soft metal workers.

Colin Bignell

Stephen,

I endorse Colin's comments. I find it is frequently the case that academic
teachings are a world away from every day life. It is necessary to use terms
in this context that will be understood by the vast majority of people
actually experienced and 'hands on' in industry.

As far as I'm concerned after something like 56 years doing it (*) there is:

'soldering' - using lead based filler or now the 'lead free' dreadful stuff
'silver soldering' - using a silver bearing filler
'brazing' - using a basically brass based filler
'welding' - using any filler compatible with the metals being welded

These terms will be fully understood by most who have actually 'been there
and worn the tee shirt' but they may not sit easily with teaching on a
material sciences course

Andrew

(* my first soldering was using a copper bit heated on the gas ring making a
crystal set when I was 9, and yes it did work )

On 23/04/2014 20:38, Fredxxx wrote:
On 23/04/2014 10:37, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-23, Chris J Dixon wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

I think the Model 30 here was the device:

http://www.hswalsh.com/categories/micro-flame

It will be cheaper to keep replacing the kettles, if that is your only
use for it. :-)

Cheaper still to select a different kettle.

Quite possibly, but we do not select items simply on the single criterion
of cheapness.

One that has spots falling off hardly sounds value for money?

Ah, I hadn't realised the problem was an infection. It sounds a little
like leprosy, but I didn't know spots were one of the symptoms

Andy

On 23/04/2014 20:54, Stephen wrote:
On 23/04/2014 19:18, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 17:55, Stephen wrote:
On 23/04/2014 08:38, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 07:03, Stephen wrote:
...
The only difference between soldering and brazing is that if the
temperature of the joining process is below 450°C its called
soldering.
If the temperature is above 450°C, its called brazing....

Hardness or softeness does not come into it....

Apart, of course, from the fact that hard soldering is a common
alternative name for brazing (aka silver soldering, particularly when
non-copper alloys are used).

well "hard soldering" may well be the old fashioned name for brazing but
I can assure you that the difference between brazing and soldering
relates to the process temperature rather than the hardness of the
filler metal.


You sound like an academic. In the real world, hard soldering and soft
soldering are well known and well understood terms. I suspect the
derivation has more to do with the metals that they are used on, than
the alloys used for joining them: another 'old fashioned' bit of
engineering terminology is to call people who work in steel hard metal
workers and those who work in copper alloys soft metal workers.


nope, not an academic... I'm a materials technologist.

That sounds like a very academic discipline to me.

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

On 23/04/2014 20:54, Stephen wrote:

You sound like an academic. In the real world, hard soldering and soft
soldering are well known and well understood terms. I suspect the
derivation has more to do with the metals that they are used on, than
the alloys used for joining them: another 'old fashioned' bit of
engineering terminology is to call people who work in steel hard metal
workers and those who work in copper alloys soft metal workers.


nope, not an academic... I'm a materials technologist.

That sounds like a very academic discipline to me.

Colin Bignell


Could just be the storeman who says 'nah - not EN8, I'd use a bit of brass,
mate '

Andrew

replying to meow2222 , stanhvac1 wrote:
meow2222 wrote:

No need to be snotty, the man's trying to help
NT


Thank you. I don't guess he ever accidentaly mispelled a word, ie: typo.
Sometimes I don't hit the keys just right and fail to post the letter.
Anyway, this is not a spelling class, it's about trying to help someone
out.

--
Stan Chaney HVACR
Commercial Refrigeration & HVAC
7325 Fairystone Park Hwy.
Bassett, VA 24055
(276)629-2803

--

On 23/04/2014 21:44, stanhvac1 wrote:
replying to meow2222 , stanhvac1 wrote:
meow2222 wrote:

No need to be snotty, the man's trying to help NT

Thank you. I don't guess he ever accidentaly mispelled a word, ie: typo.
Sometimes I don't hit the keys just right and fail to post the letter.

If you'd done it once, that would be a reasonable excuse. Twice, less
so. But every time you wrote it you got it wrong.

And Huge's reply was pretty unsnotty for usenet.

On 23/04/2014 21:03, Andrew Mawson wrote:
....
As far as I'm concerned after something like 56 years doing it (*) there
is:

'soldering' - using lead based filler or now the 'lead free' dreadful stuff
'silver soldering' - using a silver bearing filler

Devil's Advocate Mode On

You can get silver / tin soft solders. We used them for medical devices,
both because they did not contain lead and because the melting point was
high enough to resist autoclaving.

Devil's Advocate Mode Off

'brazing' - using a basically brass based filler

That, to me, is the difference between brazing and hard soldering or
silver soldering. The latter don't contain brass and have a white
colour, which makes them more cosmetically suitable for some jobs.

'welding' - using any filler compatible with the metals being welded

These terms will be fully understood by most who have actually 'been
there and worn the tee shirt' but they may not sit easily with teaching
on a material sciences course

Andrew

(* my first soldering was using a copper bit heated on the gas ring
making a crystal set when I was 9, and yes it did work )

I think mine must have been helping my father to make the wire mesh
fronts to budgie breeding cages, using wire he had 'found' at work. That
was with a 4oz copper bit soldering iron heated on the gas stove and
probably around the same age.

Colin Bignell

On 23/04/2014 21:50, Nightjar wrote:
On 23/04/2014 21:03, Andrew Mawson wrote:
...
As far as I'm concerned after something like 56 years doing it (*) there
is:

'soldering' - using lead based filler or now the 'lead free' dreadful
stuff
'silver soldering' - using a silver bearing filler

Devil's Advocate Mode On

Continuation of Devil's advocate mode on :-)


You can get silver / tin soft solders. We used them for medical devices,
both because they did not contain lead and because the melting point was
high enough to resist autoclaving.

Incidentally most plumbers solder now is lead free (to prevent water
being contaminated by lead and people ingesting it....)

This is 96S silver solder which is 96% tin and 4% silver.... so
following your so called definition, its not "soldering" as theres no
lead and and so plumbers are now "silver soldering" copper tube?

Additionally copper tube is malleable (otherwise it would not bend with
a pipe bender/spring). yet you can buy half hard copper tube and this
stuff can be bent......


Devil's Advocate Mode Off

'brazing' - using a basically brass based filler

That, to me, is the difference between brazing and hard soldering or
silver soldering. The latter don't contain brass and have a white
colour, which makes them more cosmetically suitable for some jobs.

silver soldering is not a hard solder, you can use emery paper on it easily.


'welding' - using any filler compatible with the metals being welded

These terms will be fully understood by most who have actually 'been
there and worn the tee shirt' but they may not sit easily with teaching
on a material sciences course

Andrew

(* my first soldering was using a copper bit heated on the gas ring
making a crystal set when I was 9, and yes it did work )

I think mine must have been helping my father to make the wire mesh
fronts to budgie breeding cages, using wire he had 'found' at work. That
was with a 4oz copper bit soldering iron heated on the gas stove and
probably around the same age.

Colin Bignell

On 23/04/2014 21:48, Clive George wrote:
On 23/04/2014 21:44, stanhvac1 wrote:
replying to meow2222 , stanhvac1 wrote:
meow2222 wrote:

No need to be snotty, the man's trying to help NT

Thank you. I don't guess he ever accidentaly mispelled a word, ie: typo.
Sometimes I don't hit the keys just right and fail to post the letter.

If you'd done it once, that would be a reasonable excuse. Twice, less
so. But every time you wrote it you got it wrong.

And Huge's reply was pretty unsnotty for usenet.

or for Huge :-)

Colin Bignell

"Stephen" wrote in message ...

Incidentally most plumbers solder now is lead free (to prevent water being
contaminated by lead and people ingesting it....)

Oh yes we know no pasty state for making wiped joints and it fails by
crystalisation if vibrated - dreadful stuff.

silver soldering is not a hard solder, you can use emery paper on it
easily.

Now where does emery sit on Moh's hardness scale ? 7-9 if my memory (as a
non materials scientist) serves, and diamond is 10 so pretty hard isn't it
!!!!!!!


Andrew