Hi

What I want to do is join some scrap metal together to make a sculptural
object for the garden (don't ask). A mix of sheet, rod and lumps. I
won't be able to accurately identify the type of metal - probably steel,
iron maybe some brass? (no aluminium). I need to get acquainted with the
methods I could use to do this. So far the likely methods seem to be mig
welding, tig welding or brazing. A quick search show some tools that are
basically electric and a different type using 2 bottles of gas. Since I
will be joining lots of different objects I need a method that's as
versatile as possible. Is there a dummies guide somewhere. Which of
these methods should I be learning about?

"DaveH" wrote in message
m...
Hi

What I want to do is join some scrap metal together to make a sculptural
object for the garden (don't ask). A mix of sheet, rod and lumps. I
won't be able to accurately identify the type of metal - probably steel,
iron maybe some brass? (no aluminium). I need to get acquainted with the
methods I could use to do this. So far the likely methods seem to be mig
welding, tig welding or brazing. A quick search show some tools that are
basically electric and a different type using 2 bottles of gas. Since I
will be joining lots of different objects I need a method that's as
versatile as possible. Is there a dummies guide somewhere. Which of
these methods should I be learning about?

An arc welder with rods that are Indiscriminate will do this. The rods are
a touch more expensive than normal ones, but they will allow you to use
differing metals with no problems.

Great on stainless steel to other metals as well. :-)

BigWallop wrote:

An arc welder with rods that are Indiscriminate will do this. The rods are
a touch more expensive than normal ones, but they will allow you to use
differing metals with no problems.


WTF are you on about?? I've never, ever come across rods that can be
used to weld steel to anything other than other steel. You can get
dissimilar rods, which allow you to weld different types of steel
together, including mild/stainless combinations. But welding steel to
copper alloys??


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:

An arc welder with rods that are Indiscriminate will do this. The rods
are
a touch more expensive than normal ones, but they will allow you to use
differing metals with no problems.


WTF are you on about?? I've never, ever come across rods that can be
used to weld steel to anything other than other steel. You can get
dissimilar rods, which allow you to weld different types of steel
together, including mild/stainless combinations. But welding steel to
copper alloys??

Grunff


Oh right. I better take these ones back to the shop then. Thanks for the
heads up.

LOL :-)

BigWallop wrote:

Oh right. I better take these ones back to the shop then. Thanks for the
heads up.


Good plan.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:

Oh right. I better take these ones back to the shop then. Thanks for
the
heads up.


Good plan.

Grunff


Well, they do work beautifully between Aluminium Drop Forged Brackets to
Stainless Steel Camera Housings, so I think I'll keep a couple on hand for
now, if you don't mind that is?

:-)

BigWallop wrote:

Well, they do work beautifully between Aluminium Drop Forged Brackets to
Stainless Steel Camera Housings, so I think I'll keep a couple on hand for
now, if you don't mind that is?


ROFL - love it - so you're saying you've been arc welding aluminium to
stainless?


--
Grunff

In article ,
DaveH wrote:
What I want to do is join some scrap metal together to make a sculptural
object for the garden (don't ask). A mix of sheet, rod and lumps. I
won't be able to accurately identify the type of metal - probably steel,
iron maybe some brass? (no aluminium). I need to get acquainted with the
methods I could use to do this. So far the likely methods seem to be mig
welding, tig welding or brazing. A quick search show some tools that are
basically electric and a different type using 2 bottles of gas. Since I
will be joining lots of different objects I need a method that's as
versatile as possible. Is there a dummies guide somewhere. Which of
these methods should I be learning about?

If you stick to steel, then ordinary arc welding is cheap. If you need to
join two different metals, and they're compatible, you'll need brazing.
And brazing sets are as you say two types of gas and much more expensive
to buy and run.

--
*My dog can lick anyone

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Grunff wrote:
BigWallop wrote:

Well, they do work beautifully between Aluminium Drop Forged
Brackets to Stainless Steel Camera Housings, so I think I'll
keep a couple on hand for now, if you don't mind that is?


ROFL - love it - so you're saying you've been arc welding
aluminium to stainless?

You're just jealous, cos you can't do it..... )

Steve Walker wrote:

ROFL - love it - so you're saying you've been arc welding
aluminium to stainless?


You're just jealous, cos you can't do it..... )


Damn right I am.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Steve Walker wrote:

ROFL - love it - so you're saying you've been arc welding
aluminium to stainless?


You're just jealous, cos you can't do it..... )


Damn right I am.


Grunff

I ain't no metallurgist or chemist, but I was told by a bloke in Nu Fab UK
to use these types of rods. They are called "Indiscriminate" with a code of
"TLD 3.4is" and are not the dis-similar ones you speak of. The don't burn
in like a normal rod, but they sort of melt and pour. All I know is they
work, and work well for what we needed.

We wanted to stop the locking nuts from being un-done on camera housings,
and when we asked around for ideas on what to use, the guys at Nu Fab UK
came up with this idea. The rods are expensive, but when we worked out how
many of the little welds we would get from one rod, the concept was just
what we needed.

The locking nut is stainless steel and the bracket is drop forged aluminium,
so it's quite tough, and the weld is done on two or three faces of the hex
where it touches the bracket. The whole thing seems to melt together quite
nicely and leaves a strong bond so the nut can't be un-screwed. They work,
and we like them.

BigWallop wrote:

I ain't no metallurgist or chemist

Noo!


but I was told by a bloke in Nu Fab UK
to use these types of rods. They are called "Indiscriminate" with a code of
"TLD 3.4is" and are not the dis-similar ones you speak of. The don't burn
in like a normal rod, but they sort of melt and pour. All I know is they
work, and work well for what we needed.

We wanted to stop the locking nuts from being un-done on camera housings,
and when we asked around for ideas on what to use, the guys at Nu Fab UK
came up with this idea. The rods are expensive, but when we worked out how
many of the little welds we would get from one rod, the concept was just
what we needed.

The locking nut is stainless steel and the bracket is drop forged aluminium,
so it's quite tough, and the weld is done on two or three faces of the hex
where it touches the bracket. The whole thing seems to melt together quite
nicely and leaves a strong bond so the nut can't be un-screwed. They work,
and we like them.


Do you even know what arc welding is?


--
Grunff

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
brazing sets are as you say two types of gas and much more expensive
to buy and run.

Why can't you use carbon pencils and an arc welding set?

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:

snipped

Do you even know what arc welding is?

Grunff


Yes. I've been doing it for a few years.

In article ,
BigWallop wrote:
The locking nut is stainless steel and the bracket is drop forged
aluminium, so it's quite tough, and the weld is done on two or three
faces of the hex where it touches the bracket. The whole thing seems to
melt together quite nicely and leaves a strong bond so the nut can't be
un-screwed. They work, and we like them.

It can't be a weld obviously since that can only be between identical
metal.

But this sounds interesting. Some form of 'braze' that works on stainless
but doesn't melt ally?

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
BigWallop wrote:
The locking nut is stainless steel and the bracket is drop forged
aluminium, so it's quite tough, and the weld is done on two or three
faces of the hex where it touches the bracket. The whole thing seems to
melt together quite nicely and leaves a strong bond so the nut can't be
un-screwed. They work, and we like them.

It can't be a weld obviously since that can only be between identical
metal.

But this sounds interesting. Some form of 'braze' that works on stainless
but doesn't melt ally?


And they work on quite low settings, though the ones we have are thin rods,
on a small arc welder. The rods are definitely called "indiscriminate" and
don't arc like a normal rod. As I said to Grunff, they sort of arc to a
point of melting and pouring from the end of the rod. The flux coating
seems more rigid than the normal rods as well, and more green than the bluey
tinge of other rods.

Watching them is great fun and has me fascinated watching the three metals
sort of pour together. They give a redder glow through the filter glass
rather than the normal yellowy glow of a normal rod, if that gives any more
ideas on what they're made from.

Al I know is they work, and work well. We've used them for copper to ali',
steel to ali' and copper to tin, though that failed because it was thin
sheet pieces that kept blowing through, but I think it still would have
worked.

I've tried a web search but can't find anyone who sells them. I could have
showed a picture or description of them. We get them through a fabricating
company (shhhhhh) to get the discount on them.

Well, they do work beautifully between Aluminium Drop Forged Brackets to
Stainless Steel Camera Housings,

They _might_ be "Lumiweld" or similar, which are a solder and not a
welding process. They won't work between aluminium and stainless
(simultaneously) either, unless you use a non-standard flux, which is a
little on the hazardous side (fluorides) and the heat control is tricky
too.

There are no electric-arc processes for welding stainless to aluminium.

Oh, and your aluminium isn't "drop forged" either.

Why _do_ you bother posting your rubbish?

It can't be a weld obviously since that can only
be between identical metal.

There are plenty of heterogeneous welding processes around. They're
somewhat obscure, but they're common enough when you need them. All you
need is a filler material that is easily dissolved in the parent
material - nickel rods for arc welding cast iron are one, some of the
gas-torch bronze welding processes are another. Then there are the
non-filler process like explosive welding to laminate plates together,
some friction weld process for spin-welding fastening studs onto sheet,
or even an 18th(?) century technique like making Sheffield Plate by
diffusion welding silver foil onto copper sheet (heat, time and
pressure).

Don't buy the kit, borrow it or find a course somewhere. It'll be
cheaper, plus the other advantages.

If you just "want something welded", pay someone to do it. If you're in
Bristol or South Wales, mail me.

Gas welding costs a fortune because UK bottle rental is a rip-off. It
applies on a smaller scale to MIG welding too. OTOH, oxy-acetylene kit
would let you use welding for steel-steel joins and brazing for
steel-brass/copper, all with the same kit.

Electric welding is cheap for manual stick (1/4" steel and upwards,
maybe 1/8" if your hand is good, but not really much lower thickness).
Wire-feed (MIG) welding is great for sheet and thicker stuff too, but
it's not cheap equipment if you want to do it right. Don't buy any new
MIG machine for under =A3300 (Cebora, Murex) - if you're getting a
Clarke or similar, buy it S/H and save some money - they're all a bit
rough at that price range.

You can't afford TIG.

You can't electric weld anything other than steel. Cast iron with
difficulty and expense. Forget it for non-ferrous cuprous, aluminium,
stainless or mixtures.

Stainless steel with silver solder beautifully with O-A, or even
propane, but the materials are pricey. For other methods it gets
difficult - wire-feed will do it, if you do it right (right wire, right
gas, right machine).

Welding is the easy bit. There's also the cutting and shaping first.
This is harder and takes a ridiculous amount of time (it has just taken
me 3 days to make two sets of hinges!)

There's no "dummies guide", because this isn't a process for dummies.
The best single book I know is Gibson's "Practical Welding"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0333609573/codesmiths

In article .com,
wrote:
It can't be a weld obviously since that can only
be between identical metal.

There are plenty of heterogeneous welding processes around. They're
somewhat obscure, but they're common enough when you need them. All you
need is a filler material that is easily dissolved in the parent
material - nickel rods for arc welding cast iron are one, some of the
gas-torch bronze welding processes are another.

But isn't that more akin to brazing?

--
*Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:23:51 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Why can't you use carbon pencils and an arc welding set?

Because they're rubbish and they never worked well.

You might get these to work on steel, although the resultant "brazed"
joins are brittle and weak, owing to over-heating and the resultant
dezincification. On aluminium, forget it.

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:02:38 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

gas-torch bronze welding processes are another.

But isn't that more akin to brazing?

The distinction is subtle and pretty minimal, that's for sure.

Brazing requires a generalised heating and a filler that flows by
capillary action. Take the same base materials and filler rod, but use a
smaller, hotter arc or O-A torch and you have bronze welding. The
heating is localised and the filler rod is worked in a pool, not just
flowing under its own volition.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:23:51 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:


Why can't you use carbon pencils and an arc welding set?


Because they're rubbish and they never worked well.

Not IME. I always use carbon arc brazing for building up metal or
joining thin sheet steel without the problems of arc welding when not
using mig. I find it quite a forgiving process and have not found
problems of brittle joints.

Regards
Capitol