Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Cheers
Jim K

JimK wrote:
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Live and let live.

Bill

On 18/04/14 01:12, Bill Wright wrote:
JimK wrote:
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low
power lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Live and let live.


Model planes of any sort are supposed to keep under IIRC 500 feet and
are illegal near airfields for obvious regions. Thats CAA.

The owner is liable for unlimited 3rd party liability without BMFA
insurance, and that would be voided by flying in an urban environment.

Thats BMFA.

Bill


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

JimK wrote:

Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Live and let live.

Model planes of any sort are supposed to keep under IIRC 500 feet

Did the O/P mean a toy quadcopter, or an actual helicopter?

A real one....

Jim K

It's a real one

Jim K

Well presumably he must have got planning permission for his pad, and will
I'd imagine be governed by noise regulations like most of us. I suspect
though that it will only be seen as an issue if he comes and goes a lot, ie
is he running pleasure flights from his pad?
You can get temp permission for this after a safety audit, but permanent
use requires change of use I think.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"JimK" wrote in message
...
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power
lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Cheers
Jim K

That depends on whether its a continuous issue though.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
JimK wrote:
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power
lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Live and let live.

Bill

One could surely not complain about models, they are pretty quiet these
days, and if you were unlucky enough to be hit by a model then claims are
much as with anything else, ie public liability.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

JimK wrote:

Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Live and let live.

Model planes of any sort are supposed to keep under IIRC 500 feet

Did the O/P mean a toy quadcopter, or an actual helicopter?

"JimK" wrote in message
...
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power
lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?


From a few years ago when I wa sflying.
Anyone can make a limited number of flights (air movements) from a field.
ISTR it was about 20 per year.

However there may be local bylaws about noise nuisance.
Something on the topic here.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/EIS%2005.pdf

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
JimK wrote:
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power
lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Live and let live.


Helicopter are really noisy. Have you never been in one?
The small ones are really bad.

Brian Gaff wrote:

One could surely not complain about models, they are pretty quiet these
days

You've not been near a quadcopter then? Some of them carry quite a bit
of kit (a HD camera for recording, an SD camera for live streaming,
video transmitter, WiFi Receiver, GPS units, locator beacon, chunky
battery) they can be pretty noisy.

In article , Andy
Burns scribeth thus
Brian Gaff wrote:

One could surely not complain about models, they are pretty quiet these
days

You've not been near a quadcopter then? Some of them carry quite a bit
of kit (a HD camera for recording, an SD camera for live streaming,
video transmitter, WiFi Receiver, GPS units, locator beacon, chunky
battery) they can be pretty noisy.


Yes one of them was the star of the show during the Dawlish line
rebuild...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IIiED7SMF0

A mate of mine flies choppers I'll ask him over the weekend if you
want?..

I believe within a bit that it is permissible providing it is a safe
location to land, but I'm sure if the CAA are involved it won't be as
simple as that;!..
--
Tony Sayer

On 17/04/2014 22:38, JimK wrote:
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/EIS%2005.pdf

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?...

Congested area effectively means a built-up area.

Colin Bignell

What's the definition of "built up" area?

Jim K

On 18/04/14 06:23, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

JimK wrote:

Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Live and let live.

Model planes of any sort are supposed to keep under IIRC 500 feet

Did the O/P mean a toy quadcopter, or an actual helicopter?

Blimey, I never even thought yould have a neighbour with a real
helicopter landing in his field


That is legal CAA wise, but its a planning and nuisance issue with the
local council I would have thought.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 18/04/14 06:41, JimK wrote:
It's a real one


Contact local council and ask if the land has permissions other than
agricultural.

Because I am pretty sure he would NOT have planning permission to do
that. IF its agricultural.



Jim K



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 18/04/2014 12:13, JimK wrote:
What's the definition of "built up" area?

There is none in the Air Navigation Order or the Rules of the Air, which
refer to a congested area. However, I assumed most people would
understand what a built up area is.

Colin Bignell

On 18/04/2014 12:25, Nightjar wrote:
On 18/04/2014 12:13, JimK wrote:
What's the definition of "built up" area?

There is none in the Air Navigation Order or the Rules of the Air, which
refer to a congested area. However, I assumed most people would
understand what a built up area is.

I should, perhaps, add that it is not particularly relevant in any case.
It only affects the low flying rule and that does not apply to aircraft
landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice.

Colin Bignell

A. Its a relative's neighbour

B. It lands within the grounds of some big house's 'curtilage' SP? in planning speak.

C. Apparently he doesn't need planning for it?

D. It seriously ****es off many around it who are either disturbed by noise on takeoffs & landings (usually 1 each perday), have their houses and or land w sheep cows etc overflown at treetop height on ascents/descents.

Are they stuck with it? Seems harsh that one posh kid can annoy so many without a word?

Jim K

On 18/04/2014 12:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/04/14 06:23, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

JimK wrote:

Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Live and let live.

Model planes of any sort are supposed to keep under IIRC 500 feet

Did the O/P mean a toy quadcopter, or an actual helicopter?

Blimey, I never even thought yould have a neighbour with a real
helicopter landing in his field

I never thought it might be a model :-)

That is legal CAA wise, but its a planning and nuisance issue with the
local council I would have thought.

Whether it is a planning issue depends upon whether there has been a
change of use in the land. Building a concrete pad or a hangar probably
would count as a change of use, but use as a helicopter pad incidental
to the use of the land will not necessarily do so.

Colin Bignell

So you don't know then - why not just say that?

Jim K

"JimK" wrote in message
...
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power lines,
footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Cheers
Jim K

Guidance for MP's as to the general position

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/B...?bp-id=SN04059

Summary: Not within the curtiledge although definition is a matter
for case law, and 28 days max per year

( Quote from PDF and so dodgy font
quote

a.. Planning
Helicopters and small aircraft may use temporary sites for landing and taking off

provided safety standards are observed. Such sites can include large back

gardens, hotel grounds, or open fields (provided the owner consents) or open

wasteland. Such sites do not need to be approved by the CAA: their safety for use is
judged by the pilot.

Under Article 3 and Schedule 2, Part 4 of the Town and Country Planning

(General Permitted Development Order) 1995 (SI 1995/418), as amended, helicopters

and small aircraft are given permitted development rights to use temporary sites

for up to 28 days in a calendar year without the need to make a specific planning

application. The days can be consecutive and there is no restriction on the number

of movements. The temporary sites, however, must not be buildings or within the curtilage

of a building. Clearly there is scope for interpretation of what constitutes the
'curtilage

of a building' and this is a matter for case law. When introducing a Ten Minute Rule Bill
to

amend the law relating to the control of helicopters, Kate Hoey MP said that no-one

was responsible for monitoring the ad-hoc use of helicopters and the 28-day rule

was easily breached.

quote



michael adams

....

Nightjar wrote:
On 18/04/2014 12:18, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/04/14 06:23, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

JimK wrote:

Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Live and let live.

Model planes of any sort are supposed to keep under IIRC 500 feet

Did the O/P mean a toy quadcopter, or an actual helicopter?

Blimey, I never even thought yould have a neighbour with a real
helicopter landing in his field

I never thought it might be a model :-)

pedantry
I don't know that "model" is the right word, exactly. The latest
generation of small helicopters are not usually models in the accepted
sense.
/pedantry

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 18/04/2014 12:33, JimK wrote:
A. Its a relative's neighbour

B. It lands within the grounds of some big house's 'curtilage' SP? in planning speak.

C. Apparently he doesn't need planning for it?

D. It seriously ****es off many around it who are either disturbed by noise on takeoffs & landings (usually 1 each perday), have their houses and or land w sheep cows etc overflown at treetop height on ascents/descents.

Are they stuck with it? Seems harsh that one posh kid can annoy so many without a word?

If the helicopter passes over houses, people, vessels or vehicles
(animals don't count), is less than 500 feet from them (in any
direction) and doing so is not strictly necessary as part of a normal
taking off or landing, the pilot may be in breach of Rule 5 of the Rules
of the Air. A complaint to the CAA will result in an investigation and,
if upheld, a quite serious fine for the pilot.

Colin Bignell

On 18/04/2014 12:48, JimK wrote:
So you don't know then - why not just say that?

I simply thought that built-up area was easier for most people to
understand; apparently not. Congested area is not really defined, as it
can depend upon what you are flying and whether it can land clear of the
area if an engine fails.

Colin Bignell

On 18/04/2014 15:40, Nightjar wrote:
If the helicopter passes over houses, people, vessels or vehicles
(animals don't count), is less than 500 feet from them (in any
direction) and doing so is not strictly necessary as part of a normal
taking off or landing, the pilot may be in breach of Rule 5 of the Rules
of the Air. A complaint to the CAA will result in an investigation and,
if upheld, a quite serious fine for the pilot.

Colin Bignell

Does that apply to police helicopters?

When hovering nearby the noise and pressure effects can be very much
towards painful for me. They sometimes hover in the vicinity for ten
minutes or more.

I have no problem with genuine life-saving missions, but at least one
time it was because a few packs of fags had been nicked from a shop.

(Have to admit, the noise level did seem to reduce a year or two ago,
maybe a change of helicopter?)

--
Rod

On 18/04/2014 18:37, polygonum wrote:
On 18/04/2014 15:40, Nightjar wrote:
If the helicopter passes over houses, people, vessels or vehicles
(animals don't count), is less than 500 feet from them (in any
direction) and doing so is not strictly necessary as part of a normal
taking off or landing, the pilot may be in breach of Rule 5 of the Rules
of the Air. A complaint to the CAA will result in an investigation and,
if upheld, a quite serious fine for the pilot.


Does that apply to police helicopters?...

No. Police and military operations are not bound by the Rules of the Air.

Colin Bignell

On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:37:11 +0100, polygonum
wrote:


(Have to admit, the noise level did seem to reduce a year or two ago,
maybe a change of helicopter?)

I reckon noise levels seem to be reducing too. But I put that down to
the cr*p state of my lugholes!

Nick

JimK wrote:
A. Its a relative's neighbour

B. It lands within the grounds of some big house's 'curtilage' SP? in planning speak.

C. Apparently he doesn't need planning for it?

D. It seriously ****es off many around it who are either disturbed by noise on takeoffs & landings

(usually 1 each perday), have their houses and or land w sheep cows etc
overflown at treetop height on ascents/descents.

Are they stuck with it? Seems harsh that one posh kid can annoy so many without a word?

Jim K

It can't be as bad as the motorbikes that roar past here day and night.
I'd rather have two helicopter flights than all the motorbikes.

Bill

/Guidance for MP's as to the general position

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/B...?bp-id=SN04059

Summary: Not within the curtiledge although definition is a matter
for case law, and 28 days max per year/q

Mmm so if it *is* within the curtilage?

Jim K

"JimK" wrote in message
...
/Guidance for MP's as to the general position

http://www.parliament.uk/Templates/B...?bp-id=SN04059

Summary: Not within the curtiledge although definition is a matter
for case law, and 28 days max per year/q

Mmm so if it *is* within the curtilage?

Jim K

Did you not the read document I provided the link to ?

....

5. Enforcement
If an aircraft breaches the rules, the CAA will investigate if a member
of the public gathers evidence, including the type of aircraft involved.
The section of the CAA which can

'investigate is:

The Head of Aviation Regulation Enforcement and Investigation Branch

CAA House, 45-59 Kingsway

London

WC2B 6TE

A written answer from 1998 provided details of the action taken by the CAA,

[...] if there appears to be a breach of aviation legislation, steps are taken to
identify the machine and the pilot responsible and to ascertain if there are
any exemptions or permissions in issue which would account

for the observed activity. If it then appears that the flight was in breach
of the rules and also that there is a reasonable prospect of obtaining
sufficient evidence suitable for presentation to a court, a full criminal

investigation is carried out and evidence is taken by a CAA Investigation
Officer in accordance with the

Police and Criminal Evidence Act, 1984.

quote

Accumulating the necessary evidence shouldn't be too difficult.
If matey is creating such a racket that he's disturbing a number
of neighbours then they can all keep diaries or logs of the
disturbance.

Plus video footage of the helicoptor, both parked and in the
air would help.

Presumably were matey found guilty then he might then render
himself liable for damages for any noise nuisance resulting
from his illegal activity.

While in principle this is what should happen, its possible
that the CAA might drag their feet, owing to a lack of percieved
public concern for those unfortunate enough to live next door
to people rich enough to fly helicopters from their back gardens.



michael adams

....

On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:17:14 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 18/04/2014 18:37, polygonum wrote:
On 18/04/2014 15:40, Nightjar wrote:
If the helicopter passes over houses, people, vessels or vehicles
(animals don't count), is less than 500 feet from them (in any
direction) and doing so is not strictly necessary as part of a normal
taking off or landing, the pilot may be in breach of Rule 5 of the Rules
of the Air. A complaint to the CAA will result in an investigation and,
if upheld, a quite serious fine for the pilot.


Does that apply to police helicopters?...

No. Police and military operations are not bound by the Rules of the Air.

Colin Bignell

I once saw the Greater Manchester Police helicopter hovering above my
street in the middle of the night with no lights or strobes whatsoever
showing.
I considered reporting it to the CAA, but from what you are saying I
would have wasted my breath.



--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 19 Apr 2014 10:20:48 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2014-04-18, Nightjar wrote:
On 18/04/2014 12:33, JimK wrote:
A. Its a relative's neighbour

B. It lands within the grounds of some big house's 'curtilage' SP? in planning speak.

C. Apparently he doesn't need planning for it?

D. It seriously ****es off many around it who are either disturbed by noise on takeoffs & landings (usually 1 each perday), have their houses and or land w sheep cows etc overflown at treetop height on ascents/descents.

Are they stuck with it? Seems harsh that one posh kid can annoy so many without a word?

If the helicopter passes over houses, people, vessels or vehicles
(animals don't count), is less than 500 feet from them (in any
direction) and doing so is not strictly necessary as part of a normal
taking off or landing, the pilot may be in breach of Rule 5 of the Rules
of the Air. A complaint to the CAA will result in an investigation and,
if upheld, a quite serious fine for the pilot.

The CAA do not accept complaints from single households.

I imagine the AAIB do.

--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 19/04/2014 18:04, Graham. wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:17:14 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 18/04/2014 18:37, polygonum wrote:
On 18/04/2014 15:40, Nightjar wrote:
If the helicopter passes over houses, people, vessels or vehicles
(animals don't count), is less than 500 feet from them (in any
direction) and doing so is not strictly necessary as part of a normal
taking off or landing, the pilot may be in breach of Rule 5 of the Rules
of the Air. A complaint to the CAA will result in an investigation and,
if upheld, a quite serious fine for the pilot.


Does that apply to police helicopters?...

No. Police and military operations are not bound by the Rules of the Air.


I once saw the Greater Manchester Police helicopter hovering above my
street in the middle of the night with no lights or strobes whatsoever
showing.
I considered reporting it to the CAA, but from what you are saying I
would have wasted my breath.

Pretty much. A Police Operator's Licence gives a great deal of freedom
to fly where and how other people cannot. OTOH that also means there is
very little chance of meeting anybody else in some of the places they fly.

Colin Bignell

"JimK" wrote in message
...
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low power
lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Become a radio ham, and get all the other people in the area to do the same,
then all erect 200 foot tall towers with nice long guy wires and an aerial
and little red light at the top.

michael adams wrote:

While in principle this is what should happen, its possible
that the CAA might drag their feet, owing to a lack of percieved
public concern for those unfortunate enough to live next door
to people rich enough to fly helicopters from their back gardens.

When I complained about a bloke looping the loop just above my house
every Sunday afternoon they ****ed me off totally. Luckily he crashed
and killed himself shortly afterwards.

Bill

On 19/04/14 19:09, Bill Wright wrote:
When I complained about a bloke looping the loop just above my house
every Sunday afternoon they ****ed me off totally. Luckily he crashed
and killed himself shortly afterwards.

Black magic DOES work..


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/2014 18:52, Gazz wrote:

"JimK" wrote in message
...
Relatives neighbour has started flying a helicopter from his field.

Anyone familiar with CAA "requirements" for such use?

Area is tight with only realistic approaches crisscrossed with low
power lines, footpaths, farms, A road, park etc etc

Congested area seems to be a keyphrase?

Does anyone have any thoughts/experiences?

Become a radio ham, and get all the other people in the area to do the
same, then all erect 200 foot tall towers with nice long guy wires and
an aerial and little red light at the top.

If they are 200 feet high, they won't normally need the red light. The
Air Navigation Order only requires lights on en-route obstacles of 150
metres of more in height, unless near a licensed aerodrome.

Colin Bignell

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 19:40:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/04/14 19:09, Bill Wright wrote:
When I complained about a bloke looping the loop just above my house
every Sunday afternoon they ****ed me off totally. Luckily he crashed
and killed himself shortly afterwards.

Black magic DOES work..

There's a Sod who does that around here, I keep quoting from one of
Spike Milligans books " I hope you Bloody well crash" but nothing has
happened yet. perhaps I ought to rip the page out
http://dev.epubbud.com/uploads/8/5/9...ages_00036.jpg
and send it to the address the plane is registered at.
I'm sure if I revved a loud motorcycle around outside the chaps house
for hours he would complain but these Biggles types think it OK to
inflict their noise over a wide area. For some reason the aviation
hobby think planes and pilots are something special to be admired.
Maybe in the days of Alan Cobham and his flying Circus but the novelty
has long gone.

G.Harman